Trying to make a decision

foreverstamp · Jun 28, 2010

Hi guys,

So I wrote a book, edited, polished, and wrote and polished a query letter. I sent personalized queries to about a hundred or so agents (rejected), then sent the manuscript to a great many publishers, starting at the top and working my way down. Rejection after rejection came (and of course I revised whenever I received crits or input). When I got close to the bottom of the list, down towards the e-pub/pod publishers, I started getting acceptance letters. But Now I'm wondering:

a) if the big guys didn't want the manuscript, perhaps it's just not good enough to publish and I should just move on.

b) maybe e-publishing/POD is just not the way to get published and I should just scrap it and move on. (Of course I kept writing and have written 3 other manuscripts in the time it took to get to my submitting to POD/e-pubs).

One of the Pubs that offered me a contract does both POD and off-set printing and offered me a 1500.00 advance. but they still do some POD and I know that holds a specific stigma in the publishing industry. A stigma I don't particularly want to be painted with. Also, they don't have any real distribution and that bothers me to no end. But their books have done well on amazon and maintain decent numbers (for POD) in the rankings (around 30K).

On the other hand, why not get at least 1500.00 for my novel and just move on. 1500.00 is better than nothing, right?

Argh! I'm so torn and don't want to make the wrong decision on this one.

This was a bit of a rant, but if someone has some advice I'd be happy to hear it.

thanks, guys.
FS

cameron_chapman · Jun 28, 2010

foreverstamp said:
a) if the big guys didn't want the manuscript, perhaps it's just not good enough to publish and I should just move on.

This isn't necessarily true. Think of the volume of manuscripts they receive on a regular basis. Small publishers are often a much better opportunity for a first-time novelist. If you do well with a small publisher, that increases your chances that a larger publisher will pick up your next book.

b) maybe e-publishing/POD is just not the way to get published and I should just scrap it and move on. (Of course I kept writing and have written 3 other manuscripts in the time it took to get to my submitting to POD/e-pubs).

I think e-publishing is a great way for anyone to be published. Have you looked at JA Konrath's blog about how how well his ebooks are selling? To the point he's not signing print contracts anymore...

One of the Pubs that offered me a contract does both POD and off-set printing and offered me a 1500.00 advance. but they still do some POD and I know that holds a specific stigma in the publishing industry. A stigma I don't particularly want to be painted with. Also, they don't have any real distribution and that bothers me to no end. But their books have done well on amazon and maintain decent numbers (for POD) in the rankings (around 30K).

This sounds like a fantastic offer from a small publisher. I think you're confused about what POD means. It's just a printing technology. Big publishers use POD for backlists. Small publishers use it more. As long as the publisher has quality standards for the books that go out and accepts returns from bookstores, the method in which the book is printed doesn't matter. And what do you mean by no distribution? Do they only put the books up for sale on Amazon or does that mean they just aren't heavily stocked in bookstores? Just because they're not stocked at the front of every Barnes & Noble store doesn't mean they lack distribution.

On the other hand, why not get at least 1500.00 for my novel and just move on. 1500.00 is better than nothing, right?

I think you're overthinking this. You've been offered a publishing contract from what sounds like a decent small press. And from everything I've heard, a $1500 advance from a small press is actually a really good advance (most are less than $1000). I'd check all the requisite bewares boards and sites to make sure others haven't had awful experiences and then go for it.

triceretops · Jun 28, 2010

Wow, now this one has got my curiosity. This is a small press (uses POD) that offers an advance like that? You're kidding. Please rep me this publisher's name, because obviously I've missed this boat somewhere.

In answer to your question, I'd snap this up right now. But how, tell me, could this publisher pay $1,500 and not have any bookstore placement or distribution in place? It doesn't make sense. I don't understand how they can move books with only internet sales. Unless library or club sales are a major part of their business.

Tri

Ryan_Sullivan · Jun 28, 2010

I would definitely recommend checking the background checks for that publisher.

This really comes down to your career in the long run. If this is the way you'd like to be published, then by all means go for it, it sounds like a great deal for that situation. But, it could harm your chance at future publishing with the big guys unless you did outrageously well.

Writing/publishing is a career. You have to decide your long term goals and make the best decisions for those. If you decide to keep trying, it may be slow, but it's worth it.

I got probably 20 rejections before I just went for it and queried my dream agent. A month later he called me. It's not about finding people who want you--it's about finding the right person. It'll happen, just give it time.

Chris P · Jun 28, 2010

I agree to do your homework on this publisher. Not yet having gotten to where you are in the process, I can't offer any experience, but based on what I've read here if they are a reputable publisher I'd take this.

ETA: Another way to look at this is "it's all downhill" for this MS from here. If you've already exhausted your higher up options, then all that's left is below you, including a trunk novel and all the wasted effort. Based on the prevailing sense I get at AW, an advance-paying publisher when all the bigger ones have been tried is still a good thing.

Ali B · Jun 28, 2010

It sounds like you've done your homework. I'd take the offer, personally. Some money is better than none and with creative sales techniques you may be able to make a lot more. That's a better deal than I got on my first book deal. :Shrug:

Soccer Mom · Jun 28, 2010

I'm a little puzzled as to why you were submitting to epubs and PODs if you aren't interested in them in the first place. It really isn't fair to waste the publisher's time like that if you have no intention of being published by them. If you have researched them an they are a respectable small publisher, why wouldn't you take the offer?

artemis31386 · Jun 28, 2010

I'm with Soccer Mom on this one. Epub/POD is not the same as vanity publishing. But if you are not interested, then why waste the publisher's time and submit in the first place.

shaldna · Jun 29, 2010

Alot of small presses use POD systems, so it's not that unusual.

just check them out in beware and background check first.

Also, it might be time to write something else. Many first, (and second and 11th books) don't ever see the light of day.

foreverstamp · Jun 29, 2010

Soccer Mom said:
I'm a little puzzled as to why you were submitting to epubs and PODs if you aren't interested in them in the first place. It really isn't fair to waste the publisher's time like that if you have no intention of being published by them. If you have researched them an they are a respectable small publisher, why wouldn't you take the offer?

I didn't go out intending to waste someone's time. Opinions abound on the net re POD or E-Publishing and when you get to the bottom of where you intend to submit, and you hear that some people love e-pubs or Pod press's, you wonder if you shouldn't give them a shot. you've been rejected so much you think "well, maybe the other people who say that e-publishing or POD publishing hurts a career, are wrong." Then when you get the offer, you think, "Crap, what if they aren't wrong. What if accepting this offer will make future publishing that much harder."

You can be a respectable small publisher, but the one thing I've learned is that w/o distribution to bricks and mortar stores, authors have a shot at maybe triple digit sales. And if that's the case, what's the point, right? There have been other threads on this board that point to the fact that with E or POD press's you need at least 2500 units sold to even think about mentioning it on future queries.

I'm really not trying to waste someone's time, but I don't want to make a step that will hurt me, professionally, in the future. I've tried to find well regarded authors who are published by big publishers who started out with E or POD publishing, and so far I've only found one. Do you guys know of others?

Thanks for your help, guys.

cameron_chapman · Jun 29, 2010

foreverstamp said:
You can be a respectable small publisher, but the one thing I've learned is that w/o distribution to bricks and mortar stores, authors have a shot at maybe triple digit sales.

If a publisher is offering you a $1500 advance, they're probably expecting more than triple-digit sales. Not sure what the royalty rate is, but for ease of math, let's say it's 10% of retail. If the book retails for $15 (pretty standard for a trade paperback), then that means they expect you'll sell at least 1000 copies. I think small publishers tend to be even more conservative with advances than the larger publishers, which means they might even expect you to sell twice that, but want to be careful about how much they front in case you don't.

Also, larger publishers understand that small pubs don't have the same marketing and promotion budgets that large companies have. I would expect that as long as you've earned out your advance, it's certainly not going to hurt your chances of being published in the future.

And think of it this way: Let's say you got a $50k advance on your first novel. At the same royalty rate mentioned above, you'd have to sell well over 33,000 books to earn out your advance. You know what often happens to first-time authors who don't earn out their advance (or at least come very, very close)? They don't become second-time authors, at least not with the big houses. Personally, I'd rather get a small advance and earn out, and therefore make myself more valuable for that second book.

Monkey · Jun 29, 2010

I had a bad experience with a small press and decided that I'd never go with another.

Still, when my current WIP looked like it was going to come in at a virtually unsaleable length (30-40k words), I considered going with E-publishers and discovered some decent ones...

In the end, though, I decided to heavily revise the book, and am now at almost 48,000 words...I hope to get this to the 60k range or above.

So I went through something similar: a book without much hope, checking into e-publishing, seeing what appeared to be some pretty good arrangements...but I ended up revising the book instead of submitting. If my book was Romance, I would have happily gone with some of the better deals, though, if the querying option had already run its course with no results.

POD won't kill your chances in itself. Low book sales suck, but I don't think an agent would pass on a killer query because of them, if we're talking one or two books with small or e-presses...I think agents realize that most of us write several books before we "make it".

Ultimately, it's a personal choice.

But seeing as you've already queried these e-pubs, and seeing as one is offering a damn fine advance, for the medium, I think I'd probably take it, if I were you.

Ryan_Sullivan · Jun 29, 2010

Since they are small, too, you need to make sure you don't have to return the advance if you don't earn it out--that could be a potential problem.

Trying to make a decision

foreverstamp

cameron_chapman

Makes Things Up

triceretops

Ryan_Sullivan

Agented YA Writer

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

Ali B

Just Hanging Around

Soccer Mom

Crypto-fascist

artemis31386

All around miscreant

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

foreverstamp

cameron_chapman

Makes Things Up

Monkey

Is me.

Ryan_Sullivan

Agented YA Writer