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MacAllister
06-23-2010, 11:20 PM
Yep. It's that time of year again. I'm looking at the forums and contemplating how this place could or should better serve the community. This is YOUR community, too. Even though AW owns the software and server, no one person owns a community.

Last year saw some fairly big changes, new forums and subforums, and so on -- But we've also grown significantly, with between 30 and 50 new members arriving daily. It's embarrassing for me to admit, but pretty often I'll see someone post that I've never seen before -- then I realize they've been registered for weeks, and have a couple of hundred posts already. It's not like the olden days, when I pretty much knew everyone here. (Even more embarrassing is when someone clearly has NO idea who the heck I am, or why I'm so bossy...but we'll let that one go, for now.)

Please try to keep in mind that my powers are not god-like; and as much as I'd love to see hundreds of high-paying freelance opportunities posted in the Markets forum, that's well beyond my control.

On the other hand, we have a thriving new QLTBAG forum, where interesting discussions can go far beyond the usual Gender-Queer Writing 101 derails -- and it's working out pretty well, so far.

So sound off. Represent. What would you LOVE LOVE LOVE to see available at AW? What do you think we're missing? What do you find frustrating or confusing? If you're feeling too shy to post, feel free to drop me a PM.

Maryn
06-24-2010, 01:27 AM
I'm working myself deeper and deeper into a rut of annoyance about the guidelines for Paying Markets being ignored by nearly all who post calls for manuscripts there. I propose that a post to Paying Markets not go up unless the pay rate is in the subject line, like it's supposed to be, even if this means a short delay until a mod has a chance to see that it conforms.

Maryn, getting to be a hard-ass

MacAllister
06-24-2010, 01:35 AM
That's actually possible. We'd have to hold new posts in moderation queue for approval, but it's doable.

CheekyWench
06-24-2010, 01:39 AM
I can't think of anything offhand. I just wanted to say thanks to everybody who makes this place run so smoothly :D





/brown nosing

aadams73
06-24-2010, 01:40 AM
It would be cool if we could have a permanent suggestion box.

Medievalist
06-24-2010, 01:49 AM
It would be cool if we could have a permanent suggestion box.

I think you just got one!

I also want to point out that people can always use the Contact Us form at the bottom right of every single page.

The Contact Us form goes right to MacAllister, and it's about the only way to make sure Mac sees/reads whatever.

scarletpeaches
06-24-2010, 01:51 AM
Make me the God of my own sub-forum.

Medievalist
06-24-2010, 01:55 AM
Make me the God of my own sub-forum.

For 1500.00 US that's a deal, for a year.

kuwisdelu
06-24-2010, 01:57 AM
Hmm what do I want....

I think Lisa should keep a better eye on Mac when she gets near the shiny buttons so random colour changes don't make me think I'm losing my delicate hold on reality :D ;)

scarletpeaches
06-24-2010, 02:10 AM
For 1500.00 US that's a deal, for a year.How about 73 and a half Brigadoonian quatloos?

Medievalist
06-24-2010, 02:18 AM
Hmm what do I want....

I think Lisa should keep a better eye on Mac when she gets near the shiny buttons so random colour changes don't make me think I'm losing my delicate hold on reality :D ;)

To be fair to Mac, it's not so much the buttons, it's that vBulletin has non-standard CSS.

MaCannister is hand-coding the HTML in teeny little window.

kuwisdelu
06-24-2010, 04:57 AM
To be fair to Mac, it's not so much the buttons, it's that vBulletin has non-standard CSS.

MaCannister is hand-coding the HTML in teeny little window.

Ssshhh! Imagining her pressing a bunch of shiny buttons is more amusing!

Ol' Fashioned Girl
06-24-2010, 05:22 AM
It's not so much as she 'presses' them... she bumps them a lot with her elbows. And sometimes, when she's really tired, she falls over face-first and her forehead takes out four, sometimes five, buttons in one swell foop.

Silver King
06-24-2010, 06:43 AM
For those who may be shy about offering ideas or advice to improve AW, I would urge you to so; nearly all of the great improvements have come from individual members who have shared their thoughts and helped make this site a better experience for everyone.

Medievalist
06-24-2010, 07:00 AM
For those who may be shy about offering ideas or advice to improve AW, I would urge you to so; nearly all of the great improvements have come from individual members who have shared their thoughts and helped make this site a better experience for everyone.

What FishDude said.

Also, if you're all shy and bashful and what not, you can use the Contact Form that's at the bottom right of Every Single Page and send a private note to MacAllister.

EFCollins
06-24-2010, 08:03 AM
What do you think we're missing?

Spoons and Monkey repellent. :D

As for suggestions...

I love AW. I think it's pretty incredible the way it is. It takes some getting used to for new peoples, but that's because of the sheer size of the place. And loathe as I am to suggest adding more size... what about a sub-forum for audio fiction/poetry? It's not a huge thing yet, but every time I go hunting for new markets, I see more and more new audio cast magazines as well as established magazines that are adding podcasting/audio fiction sections. It's not huge yet, but I think it will be. Some have failed, but then again so have a lot of print and online mags. That's how it goes. Just a thought.

And the SYW sections for fiction, poetry and songwriting... maybe they should all be together (unless they were before and it didn't work)? Several sub-fora under "fiction" as it is now with the separations by genre, but have "fiction, poetry, music lab" as main sub-fora. I dunno. I'm talking about sub-fora inside a sub-forum and I can't even make sense of it.

M'kay. I think I'm done. When even I can't muddle it out...

*shakes head* My half-penny worth.

scarletpeaches
06-24-2010, 03:25 PM
I know kuwi would be up for a novella forum. I like the idea myself but on reflection it seems to be a matter of length rather than genre. Not sure if it would be entirely necessary. They're kinda halfway between shorts and novels in my opinion.

Hmm. Can we have vending machines dispensing baboons?

Mr Flibble
06-24-2010, 03:33 PM
A free pony for every member?

I want a pink one. With sparkles.

No, I can't think of anything :D

kaitie
06-24-2010, 04:35 PM
A free pony for every member?

I want a pink one. With sparkles.

No, I can't think of anything :D

Can mine be purple? I like purple. And actually, I'd prefer a unicorn to a pony.

kaitie
06-24-2010, 04:37 PM
Ooh, and cookies. Can we have cookies?

scarletpeaches
06-24-2010, 04:59 PM
Can mine be purple? I like purple. And actually, I'd prefer a unicorn to a pony.You need a virgin to catch a unicorn.

I volunteer thethinker42.

thethinker42
06-24-2010, 05:01 PM
You need a virgin to catch a unicorn.

I volunteer thethinker42.

A virgin. To catch a unicorn.

Don't think I can help you there.

scarletpeaches
06-24-2010, 05:18 PM
Yeah, where are we gonna find one of those rare and endangered creatures round here?

Unicorns are a piece of piss, though.

Mr Flibble
06-24-2010, 06:09 PM
And actually, I'd prefer a unicorn to a pony.

Tsk, so unrealistic! At least we had a chance of the ponies.

Well if we're going ask for things we can't have...a dragon. A big black one wiv like flamey spurts and a bad temper. I shall park it over parliament and tell those MPs to do what I say or else :D I may need a special tiara too. With built in laser guns.

Alpha Echo
06-24-2010, 06:21 PM
Can mine be purple? I like purple. And actually, I'd prefer a unicorn to a pony.

I'd prefer a pegasus so I can fly.

scarletpeaches
06-24-2010, 06:28 PM
How many tots of rum do you think MacBuster will need to get through this shitstorm of a thread?

Mr Flibble
06-24-2010, 06:32 PM
56?

I would so love to see Mac drunk-post :D <----My suggestion for the box.

Chris P
06-24-2010, 06:36 PM
I'd prefer a pegasus so I can fly.

This for the WIN!

More on topic, in the AW library people are linking to their shorts (um, short stories, that is) in the Magazines/Newspapers subforum. I'd assumed that subforum was for journalism and not short fiction. The genre-specific subforums seem to be for novels. I think it might be more convenient to have a "Short Fiction" subforum in the library where all of my shorts can be listed in a single thread rather than starting different threads in different subforums.

And why isn't plural of "subforum" "subfora"? :tongue

EFCollins
06-24-2010, 08:00 PM
And why isn't plural of "subforum" "subfora"? :tongue

It is, isn't it? Well, it is if you ask me, anyway. ;) It's the Effie version of English. Dig it.

Actually, I like the idea of a "short story" section of the library. It would give us short story writers a place to put all our links instead of constantly updating in the "Look what I sold!" thread (for the horror section... I don't know if the other genre sections have such threads) and Goals and Accomplishments area.

MacAllister
06-24-2010, 09:53 PM
We can definitely do that!

KTC
06-24-2010, 09:59 PM
Make me the God of my own sub-forum.

i've been asking to be GodMod of the new Irrelevant Forum for years. STILL has not happened! I just want to be called Captain Irrelevant, dammit!

tjwriter
06-24-2010, 10:00 PM
:popcorn: :nothing

I'm trying to think of something, and I'm drawing a blank.

Mr Flibble
06-24-2010, 10:44 PM
I GOT A PONY!!! WITH PINK SPARKLES!!!


COOOOOOOL!!!!


Dragon and laser guns next, right? :D

ETA: That unicorn is very you SP.

Chris P
06-24-2010, 10:47 PM
We can definitely do that!

No sooner said than done! Thanks Mac

scarletpeaches
06-25-2010, 01:01 AM
What the fuck have you whores done to me?!

tjwriter
06-25-2010, 01:06 AM
I knew there was a good reason I loved this place.

MacAllister
06-25-2010, 01:07 AM
It's lonely at the top.

scarletpeaches
06-25-2010, 01:07 AM
Yeah, but you get to shower us peons with unicorns. Bah, I say. Bah!

Medievalist
06-25-2010, 01:09 AM
What the fuck have you whores done to me?!


Technically, that's whore singular, darlin'

What can I say? It's a slow day writing.

KTC
06-25-2010, 01:11 AM
What the fuck have you whores done to me?!

do not speak with such forked tongue, crazy lady. my baboon is looking for a new face...i WILL send him your way if you don't clean that tongue of yours.


Oh...suggestion for the box-----------No more PEACHES.

Shadow_Ferret
06-25-2010, 01:14 AM
My suggestion: NO MORE CHANGES!

I like it as is and hate having to relearn the layout all the time. :)

scarletpeaches
06-25-2010, 01:14 AM
Read my lips: NO. NEW. TA- Oh wait. That's been done.

scarletpeaches
06-25-2010, 01:15 AM
Technically, that's whore singular, darlin'


What can I say? It's a slow day writing.Oh the pink. The pink. It burns.

Ken
06-25-2010, 01:35 AM
... would be cool if that 'phishing issue' could be resolved. It is disturbing to see that announcement at the top of the main screen. Am sure others feel similarly. Some may even be hesitant to sign up on the site when spotting that there.

MacAllister
06-25-2010, 01:38 AM
Ken, all you have to do is click on the announcement and read it, then it auto-dismisses.

KTC
06-25-2010, 01:38 AM
My suggestion: NO MORE CHANGES!

I like it as is and hate having to relearn the layout all the time. :)

old dog. no new tricks. gotcha.

maxmordon
06-25-2010, 01:40 AM
I remember back we had the option to see our posts straight from Quick Links, I miss that.

Also, perhaps an international section where members could write in other languages besides English? It would be a bit of a nightmare to mod, though.

MacAllister
06-25-2010, 01:43 AM
Max, I love the idea of an International section. I'm not sure there's enough community-wide interest to make the use of real-estate worthwhile. But it's definitely something people should chime in about, if they'd like to see it too.

Medievalist
06-25-2010, 01:43 AM
I remember back we had the option to see our posts straight from Quick Links, I miss that.


I have thought about modifying the template to put that back, but it's over-written with each update. I'll keep it in mind though and if I can figure out a reliable way to implement it, I'll bring it to Mac's attention.

kuwisdelu
06-25-2010, 01:53 AM
I don't know about an international section just for different language posts, but it got me thinking.

What about an international/world books subforum? Maybe in the genres section? For translated novels/short stories or foreign authors writing in other languages or locales?

Ken
06-25-2010, 02:07 AM
Ken, all you have to do is click on the announcement and read it, then it auto-dismisses.

... good to know. Thanks.

(That did the trick.)

dclary
06-25-2010, 02:11 AM
Mac, I know the site needs to pay for itself, believe me I know that, but it seems to me that in the last month or two, the number of ads at the top and bottom of the forums has tripled. For me (my experience may be different than others) I actually have to scroll down on any page in the forum before I see *any* content that isn't advertising or breadcrumb/user info.

Would it be possible, given that most of us are going to have monitors that are wider than tall, to put the "books by AW'ers" ad-space in a vertical space to the left or right of the forum, instead of above it?

Alternatively, do you offer a "payperview" mode for AW? Something to consider: accept payment in exchange for a user experience that is banner-ad free?

Kitty Pryde
06-25-2010, 03:14 AM
Needs more giant squid, boss!

Fenika
06-25-2010, 03:35 AM
Well, they beat me to it:



Also, perhaps an international section where members could write in other languages besides English? It would be a bit of a nightmare to mod, though.

I don't know about writing in other than English, but an area where we can emphasize other cultures would be great, even if it were in broad sections- Eastern European being one ofc :D


I don't know about an international section just for different language posts, but it got me thinking.

What about an international/world books subforum? Maybe in the genres section? For translated novels/short stories or foreign authors writing in other languages or locales?

Yes, this. We particularly need a foreign author section. And if it's available in English, then a major number of AWers could check it out.


Needs more giant squid, boss!

Not a bad suggestion.

Also, we need more sparkly dragon avatars to offset all the new hoofstock around here. ;)

Silver King
06-25-2010, 04:02 AM
...Alternatively, do you offer a "payperview" mode for AW? Something to consider: accept payment in exchange for a user experience that is banner-ad free?
That's an excellent idea; or better yet, just charge all members a token amount, say one dollar per month. Most folks could easily afford twelve bucks a year to help maintain the site. Hell, I spent more than that today on lunch alone...

thothguard51
06-25-2010, 04:19 AM
Since arriving 8-9 months ago, I have enjoyed the company, banter and, publishing information I have received. I particularly love reading Med's take on things and she has opened my eyes to a lot of publishing news this newb was totally ignorant about.

Thank you to all the mods and members who make AW a great place...

If I had to suggest anything, it would be to ENLARGE the search functions. They are so tiny and so lumped together I often hit the wrong search topic and have to start all over again.

MacAllister
06-25-2010, 04:26 AM
No promises regarding the ads, folks - but I'll look into how fussy a non-ad, paid subscription would be to implement. I know there are a handful of big boards that do it that way.

I'm always mindful of the ads, too, and try to work hard to keep them as non-intrusive as I can. In fact, we're actually carrying fewer ads in the header right now than we were a couple of months ago, though--so that's a case of perceptions not always being accurate.

KTC
06-25-2010, 04:30 AM
I have NO problem with the ads...and I do click on them.

As a member...I could suggest that members donate when they can. It's a great place...well deserving of some of your 'extra' cash every now and again. (-;

MacAllister
06-25-2010, 04:33 AM
As for the international section, we'll definitely do something with that. I know the P&CE threads about what's going on internationally are always my favorites, too -- and I read a lot of books by non-USian writers. I think that's a terrific idea.

poetinahat
06-25-2010, 04:33 AM
I'm fine with the ads - anything that helps keep this marvelous place going. Really, is there anywhere on the internet that's half as rewarding and one-tenth as welcoming?

I'd probably be more likely to patronise the advertisers more if I weren't overseas.

I'm trying to think of suggestions, but I've caused enough ruckus in the past with "improvements".

The one thing I can think of - and maybe it's something I could offer - is an ancillary Newbie Guide; something more like, say, a Day in the Life of an AWer, that walks through how one does certain things here, and how others respond. Say, for example, submitting a SYW work, and the responses to expect.

KTC
06-25-2010, 04:34 AM
I'm fine with the ads - anything that helps keep this marvelous place going. Really, is there anywhere on the internet that's half as rewarding and one-tenth as welcoming?

I'd probably be more likely to patronise the advertisers more if I weren't overseas.

pull up to the bumper, baby.

Wayne K
06-25-2010, 04:38 AM
I'm no help with stuff like this, but I'd like to chime in about what a great job you guys do.

EFCollins
06-25-2010, 04:46 AM
That's an excellent idea; or better yet, just charge all members a token amount, say one dollar per month. Most folks could easily afford twelve bucks a year to help maintain the site. Hell, I spent more than that today on lunch alone...

Heh. I'd shit a brick if I spent twelve bucks on a lunch in a single day. Unless it's a special occasion (IE: My birthday, my kids' birthdays, my mom's, spouse's anniversaries etc.) I don't just blow money up the tailpipe.

I am perfectly willing, however, to pay my rent here. I've spent enough time on AW to owe my share of the bills. A dollar a month sounds more than fair, and actually, to be honest I'd be willing to pay more. I've seen many, many writer's forums trying to be what AW is and they don't manage it. This place is great, and I think that is mostly because of Mac. (MHO... not brown nosing) Mac doesn't take shit, doesn't tolerate shit and she weeds it out quickly and without mercy. (I've seen it. I don't think I'll ever forget when she posted to one person about how they came to the wrong place if they expected a nice circle jerk. Frigging classic.) Mac and the mod team give a damn, you know? They don't know every person on the boards, but that doesn't matter. No where else, that I have found, cares about writers and writing as much as AW mods, Mac and the community that makes this whole place go. I'd pay more than the 20 dollar subscription I have now. Just because AW has that spirit.

/end sentimentality

Sorry. Carry on.

kaitie
06-25-2010, 04:57 AM
I've got adblocker installed and that kills just about all ads anywhere. It's one of the Firefox add-ons, and it's very easy to use. If the ads really bother you, I'd suggest using something like that.

Or, you know, we all donate twenty bucks to AW so she doesn't need to use them. :tongue

Synonym
06-25-2010, 05:02 AM
Actually, I'd cough up the twelve bucks too. Every time I think I've got a little extra lying around, something sucks it up. There's a cosmic law at work here someplace, I'm sure. If I knew I had to plunk it down, say on my anniversary of joining...I'd find a way to come up with it.

I'm very lucky that this is the first place I found when I began searching for help with writing. Very lucky. :D

Chris P
06-25-2010, 05:06 AM
I like encouraging international participation, and I wonder if an ESL/EFL SYW section would be helpful?

bettielee
06-25-2010, 05:14 AM
so.... so jealous of the sparkly pink ponies....

Chris P
06-25-2010, 05:23 AM
so.... so jealous of the sparkly pink ponies....

I'm getting out of this thread before something happens to Ernie...

Fenika
06-25-2010, 05:43 AM
so.... so jealous of the sparkly pink ponies....

*ahem* This is bias against sparkly dragons!




:D

Fenika
06-25-2010, 05:44 AM
...I'd settle for shiny?


Why yes, I should be writing, why do you ask?

Silver King
06-25-2010, 06:09 AM
I mentioned earlier a small membership fee not so much to talk Mac into it (she doesn't like the idea), but more as a way to remind folks that even a small donation, say five or ten dollars here and there, goes a long way to help defray the costs of running this site.

I can't really talk about what I know from a mod standpoint, but I hope I can say this much without betraying anyone's trust: The owner of this site often has to reach into her own pocket to keep AW above water as a going concern. I've seen it happen.

Mac never asks for help, ever, but I'm not shy to do so on her behalf now and hope it will spur some of us to donate just a small amount to show our appreciation for what this site means to us.

Collectonian
06-25-2010, 09:04 AM
I asked before no long after I got here, but the post never seemed to get read, so asking again...please please please please please please please please please please please turn off the "feature" in vBulletin that auto marks all threads read X minutes after you come to the site, regardless of what you are doing. I have missed so many posts from that thing marking stuff read while I went to the bathroom or was catching up on a longer, more involved thread, or got a phone call or etc etc etc. It is a seriously annoying element of the software, IMHO, and I'd much rather have full control over when I mark anything as "read"

:-)

MacAllister
06-25-2010, 09:18 AM
Collectonian, I'll take a look and see what we can do about that. The problem is, the forum is frakkin' huge -- so if we turn it off entirely, it's going to take a really, really long time to load for everyone, partly because of the sorts of other functions the time-limit serves. Remember, there are hundreds of threads started every day. Turning off the time-out will break several other features like "New Posts" for example.

I'm not quite sure what trouble you're encountering, to be honest, since this isn't something anyone has ever complained about. I do recommend using the subscribe feature for threads you're interested in following.

But it might be we can lengthen the parameters a bit, or something.

Collectonian
06-25-2010, 11:47 AM
Two other forums I read use the same software and neither have the auto marking as read turned on. :-) One has 28k active members, and dozens, if not hundreds, of threads going at once. As far as I know, the New Posts still works fine with it off. I can go to those, see new messages by clicking the little symbol by the thread title, or going into the thread and hitting go to first unread post. With the other forums, I can pop in if I have just a few minutes, read a thread or two, leave, come back hours or even days later, and the stuff I hadn't read is still showing as unread.

Basically, when I come to the forum, I'll start reading the areas of interest. Something distracts me, or what not. After 15-20 minutes, even if I've come back and am actively reading again, suddenly every thread in the forum is marked as read, so I have no idea what I have and have not read. So I'd miss quite a few posts because it no longer let me see what was unread. I'd think turning it off would actually boost performance, as it would no longer be constantly checking how long you've been logged in to do the auto mark as read, instead if would be something done manually :-)

SaraP
06-25-2010, 12:22 PM
As for the international section, we'll definitely do something with that. I know the P&CE threads about what's going on internationally are always my favorites, too -- and I read a lot of books by non-USian writers. I think that's a terrific idea.

Being "international" myself, I do wonder what would be the purpose of this.

I have one suggestion to add regarding newbies. I know that many never actually read the Newbie Guide and there is great info on it. Maybe make it so they have to get past it, the same way one has to get past the disclaimer on Erotica SYW?

I also wanna say I love the subscription/unsubscription option. I had never encountered that in other forums and it's mighty useful.

Fenika
06-25-2010, 03:00 PM
Two other forums I read use the same software and neither have the auto marking as read turned on. :-) One has 28k active members, and dozens, if not hundreds, of threads going at once. As far as I know, the New Posts still works fine with it off. I can go to those, see new messages by clicking the little symbol by the thread title, or going into the thread and hitting go to first unread post. With the other forums, I can pop in if I have just a few minutes, read a thread or two, leave, come back hours or even days later, and the stuff I hadn't read is still showing as unread.

Basically, when I come to the forum, I'll start reading the areas of interest. Something distracts me, or what not. After 15-20 minutes, even if I've come back and am actively reading again, suddenly every thread in the forum is marked as read, so I have no idea what I have and have not read. So I'd miss quite a few posts because it no longer let me see what was unread. I'd think turning it off would actually boost performance, as it would no longer be constantly checking how long you've been logged in to do the auto mark as read, instead if would be something done manually :-)

I sporadically have this problem, but usually just shrug it off. My solution is to make a mental note of subforums I want to visit, or to start off by opening the stuff I want.

If you click on New Posts at the start of your visit, and there are 100 new posts (4 pages), no matter how long you take, you should still be able to get through those 4 pages without any change in the listings (until you hit new posts again, ofc, or close the window). Or am I missing something?


Being "international" myself, I do wonder what would be the purpose of this.

I have one suggestion to add regarding newbies. I know that many never actually read the Newbie Guide and there is great info on it. Maybe make it so they have to get past it, the same way one has to get past the disclaimer on Erotica SYW?

I also wanna say I love the subscription/unsubscription option. I had never encountered that in other forums and it's mighty useful.

My other suggestion is to make this poor girl happy. She got an avatar that was beat with a fugly stick b/c she has a jealous.

I, otoh, has a happy. I shall call my dragon George and love him, and polish him, and feed him uncut diamonds.

Sophia
06-25-2010, 04:39 PM
please turn off the "feature" in vBulletin that auto marks all threads read X minutes after you come to the site, regardless of what you are doing. I have missed so many posts from that thing marking stuff read

I've found this, too. You can get around it like this, if you haven't already tried it: If I haven't checked the forum for a day, there will be between 10 and 20 pages of threads brought up when I click on New Posts. I go through each page, look at the thread title, and if I see a thread I'm interested in, I right-click the View First Unread Post button for that thread (the small blue button with a down arrow on it at the start of the thread title) and set it to open in a new tab (this is using the Firefox browser).

I go through each page, and then when I reach the end, I go back and read the threads I've opened. As this generally takes some time, the forum threads will usually be marked as read in the background, although that won't affect the already open tabs, of course. When I've finished with the tabs, I click on New Posts again, and it will bring up anything that came up while I was reading.

It works fine, as long as you aren't interrupted while initially going through the thread pages, or if you find an interesting thread early on and can't help reading it there and then! :)

SaraP
06-25-2010, 04:41 PM
My other suggestion is to make this poor girl happy. She got an avatar that was beat with a fugly stick b/c she has a jealous.

*ahem*

It is not jealousy. It is ...

... it is ...

... a challenge for Mac! That's it! :D

Maryn
06-25-2010, 04:49 PM
I have one suggestion to add regarding newbies. I know that many never actually read the Newbie Guide and there is great info on it. Maybe make it so they have to get past it, the same way one has to get past the disclaimer on Erotica SYW?Amen, sister. Ignorance is no defense.

Maryn, glad we attract far more nice people than asshats

Fenika
06-25-2010, 05:00 PM
*ahem*

It is not jealousy. It is ...

... it is ...

... a challenge for Mac! That's it! :D

In that case, I challenge Mac to make you a sparkly baboon :D

Adam
06-25-2010, 05:35 PM
A sparkle/swear jar. The forum'd be rich in a week! :D

Fenika
06-25-2010, 06:27 PM
Do words like sparklepoo count double?

Mr Flibble
06-25-2010, 07:15 PM
A sparkle/swear jar. The forum'd be rich in a week! :D


Fuck no! I'd be skint in mere moments.

Soccer Mom
06-25-2010, 07:44 PM
Fuck no! I'd be skint in mere moments.

That will be five quataloos in the swear jar, missy!

Mr Flibble
06-25-2010, 07:49 PM
Shit, er, um, I mean poopypants. :D


I've got a button, will that do?

MacAllister
06-25-2010, 09:12 PM
Two other forums I read use the same software and neither have the auto marking as read turned on. :-) One has 28k active members, and dozens, if not hundreds, of threads going at once. As far as I know, the New Posts still works fine with it off. I can go to those, see new messages by clicking the little symbol by the thread title, or going into the thread and hitting go to first unread post. With the other forums, I can pop in if I have just a few minutes, read a thread or two, leave, come back hours or even days later, and the stuff I hadn't read is still showing as unread.Hmm. Point me at those boards? Because the VBulletin documentation actually warns admin that toggling that feature off in the version we're running will affect other features.

Actually I highly recommend you just subscribe to the threads you're interested in coming back to, some days later, then. That makes a good deal more sense than expecting the 25000 other people to get used to a new system.

Medievalist
06-25-2010, 09:15 PM
Two other forums I read use the same software and neither have the auto marking as read turned on. :-)

First, "the same software" is meaningless since there's not only vBulletin, there's the versions of Apache, and MySQL, and PHP.

Secondly, if you have not forced your cookies to be replaced since the April upgrade, your cookies may not be functioning correctly; vBulletin changed the way cookies fucntion.

Thirdly, if you are using Windows and you have AW Favorieted or Bookmarked, there are two copies of the AW cookies; either nuke the second copy by hand, or delete the favorite, log off, nuke the cookies, Quit the browser, then log on again.

Fourthly, you can subsciribe via the Subscribe Threads option, or you can use RSS.

Medievalist
06-25-2010, 09:19 PM
I have one suggestion to add regarding newbies. I know that many never actually read the Newbie Guide and there is great info on it. Maybe make it so they have to get past it, the same way one has to get past the disclaimer on Erotica SYW?

They still won't read it.

On the other hand, the ones that don't read it (despite the link in the Welcome PM they get, and the fact that it's linked at the top of every screen) even after being explicitly asked to in PM or in a thread, tend to prove themselves TSTL and go away, sometimes with a slight push.

Adam
06-25-2010, 09:45 PM
Do words like sparklepoo count double?

Triple. ;)


Fuck no! I'd be skint in mere moments.

Ah, but think of the good you'd do for AW! :D

MaryMumsy
06-25-2010, 11:20 PM
They still won't read it.

On the other hand, the ones that don't read it (despite the link in the Welcome PM they get, and the fact that it's linked at the top of every screen) even after being explicitly asked to in PM or in a thread, tend to prove themselves TSTL and go away, sometimes with a slight push.

Or a not so slight push.

MM

FennelGiraffe
06-26-2010, 12:19 AM
Actually I highly recommend you just subscribe to the threads you're interested in coming back to, some days later, then. That makes a good deal more sense than expecting the 25000 other people to get used to a new system.

You can't subscribe to a thread until you know it exists. I'm missing threads because they get marked read before I ever see them for the first time.

And using New Posts is a pain because I can't filter out the subforums I'm not interested in. Some of those tend to be very active.

Etola
06-26-2010, 12:26 AM
I'm not sure if this is feasible, code-wise, but is it possible to add the smiley menu to the "quick reply" and/or "edit post" windows?

MacAllister
06-26-2010, 12:28 AM
I'm not sure if this is feasible, code-wise, but is it possible to add the smiley menu to the "quick reply" and/or "edit post" windows?
I'm not sure, either, but I DO know who to ask about it. :)

KTC
06-26-2010, 12:36 AM
I don't see a problem with the threads being marked read. When I come on...I go through ALL the new posts...whether it's 1 page or 14 pages...and THEN I go back to comment. The new posts never disappear for me...I can go through them all, post, read, post, read...and they're still there. If I let AW sit idle forever...then they disappear. I don't think this is a problem with the community setup...I think it's a problem with the reader.

KTC
06-26-2010, 12:37 AM
Besides...you can just go to QUICK LINKS and hit TODAY'S POSTS...and it will give you pages and pages...and it will show you the cut off point where you came in...you can just browse through the pages of posts for TODAY'S POSTS. It's really NOT an issue.

MacAllister
06-26-2010, 12:39 AM
From the Admin help about marking threads read (I'd link it, but unless you have a license log-in, you won't be able to open the page):


This option controls how threads and forums are marked as read.

1. Inactivity/Cookie Based - once a user has been inactive for a certain amount of time (the value of the session timeout option) all threads and forums are considered read. Individual threads are marked as read within a session via cookies.

This option is how all versions of vBulletin before 3.5 functioned.

2. Database (no automatic forum marking) - this option uses the database to store thread and forum read times. This allows accurate read markers to be kept indefinitely. However, in order for a forum to be marked read when all threads are read, the user must view the list of threads for that forum.

This option is more space and processor intensive than inactivity-based marking.

3. Database (automatic forum marking) - this option is the same as a previous option, but forums are automatically marked as read when the last new thread is read.

This is the most usable option for end users, but most processor intensive.

[emphasis added]


We simply do NOT have the server space right now for options 2 and 3, guys - which means we're going to stay with with option 1.

PLEASE NOTE (Because no matter how many times I tell people that odd things happen when you have stale cookies, people manage not to listen) Currently we're set for those threads to mark themselves read after 20 minutes of inactivity. If you have a corrupt cookie, that might be happening more or less often than it's supposed to -- try clearing your cookies.

What I can and WILL do is set that time-limit to 90 minutes, rather than 20 minutes.

A reminder - your browser cookie will very probably be STILL be marking things read within 20 minutes, until you've forced a refresh of your cookies.

Medievalist
06-26-2010, 12:41 AM
I'm not sure if this is feasible, code-wise, but is it possible to add the smiley menu to the "quick reply" and/or "edit post" windows?

If I do modify the Templates, I'll do that too. I think a lot of members would like that.

Chris P
06-26-2010, 12:43 AM
I think a lot of members would like that.

I'm one of them. Thanks!

KTC
06-26-2010, 12:46 AM
If I do modify the Templates, I'll do that too. I think a lot of members would like that.

william is going to have a conniption! :popcorn:

Medievalist
06-26-2010, 12:49 AM
william is going to have a conniption! :popcorn:

It's good for him. Builds character and whatnot.

I'm not a big smilie user myself, but I notice that when I add a smiley, people are overjoyed.

You can get a complete list of all the AW Smileys from this link:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&editorid=vB_Editor_001

Which you can drag to your bookmark bar.

tjwriter
06-26-2010, 12:52 AM
You can always learn the commands for your favorites and then you don't even have to open the other link.

:popcorn:

KTC
06-26-2010, 12:53 AM
Nor am I a big smilie user. I think that's my first one this year. And people are always bustin' my chops about it too. Apparently my humour is often only humourous to me. (-: I'm told to insert smilies to 'suggest' that it's humour. If that's needed, I'm missing the mark. Le sigh.

KTC
06-26-2010, 12:53 AM
You can always learn the commands for your favorites and then you don't have to even open the other link.

:popcorn:

: popcorn : , what?

HAHAHA. I kill me.

tjwriter
06-26-2010, 12:58 AM
I am not supposed to burst out laughing in my cubicle at work, Kevin. But thanks for the silent belly laugh.

:roll:

KTC
06-26-2010, 01:03 AM
I am not supposed to burst out laughing in my cubicle at work, Kevin. But thanks for the silent belly laugh.

:roll:

I'd love to Googlfu you with a cubicle smilie right about now...alas I cannot. I tried. There are no cubicle smilies. I can, however, suggest a way to be removed from said cubicle. :Hammer: Bosses frown on that type of activity.

Medievalist
06-26-2010, 01:04 AM
You can always learn the commands for your favorites and then you don't even have to open the other link.

:popcorn:

You know, for April Fools, I could just switch 'em all around . . .

KTC
06-26-2010, 01:07 AM
You know, for April Fools, I could just switch 'em all around . . .

it would be chaos. someone would want to show their interest in the escalating feud by displaying their :popcorn: smilie and suddenly, up pops :troll and that, my friend, is a whole other ballgame. people will die. die, i tell you...die.

Mr Flibble
06-26-2010, 01:14 AM
Funny thing is about the 'marked read' thing - I can read a thread, heck post in it, and it doesn't show as read until the time runs out....(well except for stickied threads like the Cantina - it shows when I've read them)


people will die. die, i tell you...die.

And you will point and laugh, amIright?

tjwriter
06-26-2010, 01:21 AM
Sometimes that depends on when you read and when you post. If someone posts inbetween, it will still show as unread when you leave the thread. You have to go back in and read it again.

Some days it just acts wonky, though. I blame Buster.

Medievalist
06-26-2010, 01:28 AM
it would be chaos. someone would want to show their interest in the escalating feud by displaying their :popcorn: smilie and suddenly, up pops :troll and that, my friend, is a whole other ballgame. people will die. die, i tell you...die.

I know! (Starts list)

Medievalist
06-26-2010, 01:29 AM
Funny thing is about the 'marked read' thing - I can read a thread, heck post in it, and it doesn't show as read until the time runs out....(well except for stickied threads like the Cantina - it shows when I've read them)

Yes; it's absolutely based on the clock ticking.

Also, I'm not kidding about stale cookies. vBulletin changed the way their cookies work with the early April update.

scarletpeaches
06-26-2010, 01:34 AM
It's good for him. Builds character and whatnot.

I'm not a big smilie user myself, but I notice that when I add a smiley, people are overjoyed.

You can get a complete list of all the AW Smileys from this link:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&editorid=vB_Editor_001

Which you can drag to your bookmark bar.And every time you post in pink, I get this warm feeling in my chest, like my heart has wet itself.

tjwriter
06-26-2010, 01:59 AM
So who changed what? The site is loading exceptionally fast.

MacAllister
06-26-2010, 02:11 AM
My best guess is that when we changed the time-out to 90 minutes from 20, the server has to poll the database less often -- hence the swifter pageloads.

ether
06-26-2010, 02:26 AM
I have a suggestion.

I'd like a hug.

Oh. You can't do that? Um... What about more hours in a day so I can post more? No? Well, crap.



In all seriousness, I adore the forum how it is. It's a little daunting to a newcomer only because it's so dang big, but it's easy to get used to. Plus I like it's so active, and yet the mods still manage to be on top of things when there are problems. A+.

scarletpeaches
06-26-2010, 02:32 AM
I'd ask Mac for a thread dedicated to photos of Shannon Leto with his shirt off but I already know her answer and all the words she would use would be of the four-letter variety.

Alan Yee
06-26-2010, 02:42 AM
I'd ask Mac for a thread dedicated to photos of Shannon Leto with his shirt off but I already know her answer and all the words she would use would be of the four-letter variety.

If you asked that, she'd probably give you an even worse avatar.

Medievalist
06-26-2010, 02:46 AM
If you asked that, she'd probably give you an even worse avatar.

Alan are you complaining about the lovely custom avatar I gave SP?

scarletpeaches
06-26-2010, 02:49 AM
If you asked that, she'd probably give you an even worse avatar.A photo of Silver King with his tackle out?

Kateness
06-26-2010, 02:51 AM
What I can and WILL do is set that time-limit to 90 minutes, rather than 20 minutes.

A reminder - your browser cookie will very probably be STILL be marking things read within 20 minutes, until you've forced a refresh of your cookies.

Dude, this rocks.

*chugs along happily*

Fenika
06-26-2010, 02:55 AM
Alan are you complaining about the lovely custom avatar I gave SP?

I believe he is. ;)

Medievalist
06-26-2010, 04:13 AM
A photo of Silver King with his tackle out?

There's a size limit on avatars.

scarletpeaches
06-26-2010, 04:15 AM
There's a size limit on avatars.Ba-doom TISH!

You just won the intertubes.

KTC
06-26-2010, 04:21 AM
Ba-doom TISH!

You just won the intertubes.

indeed. she often hides that wit. pity.

Medievalist
06-26-2010, 04:36 AM
I believe he is. ;)

Well, shucks, that seems sort of like an invitation to me, what do YOU think, oh sparkly one?

Alan Yee
06-26-2010, 05:19 AM
Alan are you complaining about the lovely custom avatar I gave SP?

Um. I mean, no, it's the most photogenic avatar I've ever seen. Look at the way the colors meld together to accentuate the natural habitat of that exotic creature. Why would you say I was complaining?


Well, shucks, that seems sort of like an invitation to me, what do YOU think, oh sparkly one?

I don't like the sound of this.

Susie
06-26-2010, 06:20 AM
I have a suggestion: :D Please send me a pm to let me know about these great new threads. I never know 'nuttin' :D

SaraP
06-26-2010, 06:28 AM
Oh oh oh, I remembered something else. Is there any way to get a Member search feature, instead of having to look up posts by them?

Medievalist
06-26-2010, 08:19 AM
Oh oh oh, I remembered something else. Is there any way to get a Member search feature, instead of having to look up posts by them?

You can add them to your Contacts, which means you'll be one click away from their profile.

CP-->Networking-->Contacts

The member list was turned off because it's existence spam problems for members.

MacAllister
06-26-2010, 09:17 AM
You can add them to your Contacts, which means you'll be one click away from their profile.

CP-->Networking-->Contacts

The member list was turned off because it's existence spam problems for members.

That, and it gave everyone the stalker-creepies.

Collectonian
06-26-2010, 11:00 AM
My best guess is that when we changed the time-out to 90 minutes from 20, the server has to poll the database less often -- hence the swifter pageloads.

Yep...that's why I said it would likely improve performance...(I do web application for a living as a random side note)

If you still are interested in those other forums, they are AnimeOnDVD.com (http://www.mania.com/aodvb/) and Host Nexus (http://www.hostnexus.com/forum/) forums. 90 minutes it at least better than 20, so do appreciate it. Someone else already answered on why not subscribe - can't subscribe to threads that don't exist yet :)

Collectonian
06-26-2010, 11:05 AM
First, "the same software" is meaningless since there's not only vBulletin, there's the versions of Apache, and MySQL, and PHP.

Secondly, if you have not forced your cookies to be replaced since the April upgrade, your cookies may not be functioning correctly; vBulletin changed the way cookies fucntion.

Thirdly, if you are using Windows and you have AW Favorieted or Bookmarked, there are two copies of the AW cookies; either nuke the second copy by hand, or delete the favorite, log off, nuke the cookies, Quit the browser, then log on again.

Fourthly, you can subsciribe via the Subscribe Threads option, or you can use RSS.

The versions of Apache, etc do no affect the basic configuration of vBulletin, which my request very specifically deals with. Its a single option in the administration system. My cookies work fine - and were cleared when I got a new laptop not too long ago. I also clean them regularly. As someone else already noted, you can't subscribe to threads that don't exist yet. Part of the point of seeing the new posts is it also let's you easily find new threads, nor, again, does it really address the issue. I can see the new posts when I first log in, the problem is when you sit too long on the site (20 minutes) and still have stuff to read - its suddenly all marked read. Subscribing won't fix that for new threads.

tjwriter
06-26-2010, 05:40 PM
*Checks profile*

*Points and laughs at all the sparkly avatars.*

Alan's is particularly cute.

SaraP
06-26-2010, 05:44 PM
*wonders why Alan's would be particularly cute*

*scrolls up to check*

:roll:

Alan Yee
06-26-2010, 08:59 PM
*checks avatar*

Oh, that is so perfect. Rainbow sheep! With sparkles! Thank you oh so much, anonymous avatar donor (*cough*Lisa*cough*)!

bettielee
06-27-2010, 04:19 AM
That, and it gave everyone the stalker-creepies.

stalker-creepies: bad

sparkly pony avatars: priceless.

:)

MacAllister
06-27-2010, 05:38 AM
Seriously, you could look a member up and see what thread they were viewing, or if they were reading PMs, or composing a post, or what not.

It was weird and a little oogy.

tjwriter
06-27-2010, 06:12 AM
The time-out setting change has update our most ever users stats.

Chris P
06-28-2010, 10:29 PM
Nobody commented, so it might have gotten overlooked, but what about an "English as a Second Language" subforum in SYW?

I know from trying to learn a second language (I'm nowhere near ready to write in French or Portuguese, though!) that native-speaker input is beyond gold.

MacAllister
06-28-2010, 10:56 PM
We've had a number of pieces posted in SYW by folks who are using English as a second (or third) language, and generally they say as much when asking for crit. Again, I'm not really sure there are enough community members writing ESL to warrant a sub-forum, nor am I sure they'd want to be separated out into that category rather than just posting under the appropriate genre or discipline.

I'm certainly willing to consider it, if there's interest.

Xelebes
06-28-2010, 11:11 PM
Yeah, I was going to suggest a Translation forum as a way of breaking into an international forum of some sort.

kuwisdelu
06-28-2010, 11:58 PM
How about a "sarcasm" smiley?

Medievalist
06-29-2010, 12:07 AM
How about a "sarcasm" smiley?

Find one, and PM me; if it's legal (some are covered by copyright) and Mac approves, I'll add it.

semmie
06-29-2010, 01:34 AM
Wow. There are a lot of sparkles in this thread. Very cool.

SaraP
06-29-2010, 02:05 AM
We've had a number of pieces posted in SYW by folks who are using English as a second (or third) language, and generally they say as much when asking for crit. Again, I'm not really sure there are enough community members writing ESL to warrant a sub-forum, nor am I sure they'd want to be separated out into that category rather than just posting under the appropriate genre or discipline.

I'm certainly willing to consider it, if there's interest.

Speaking as someone who writes in ESL, I just want to say that I wouldn't mind participating in such a forum, but the main purpose of it still eludes me.

Xelebes
06-29-2010, 02:49 AM
Speaking as someone who writes in ESL, I just want to say that I wouldn't mind participating in such a forum, but the main purpose of it still eludes me.

Discussion of idioms between languages?

MacAllister
06-29-2010, 02:54 AM
Hmm, I'm inclined to create an "International District" in . . . maybe Pop Culture? . . . and we can attach a "Writing in ESL" SYW forum the way the poetry and politics SYW areas are attached? It may be that creating the space will create its own traffic. If it's largely unused, we can always blend it back into the other rooms and call it off, at some future point.

KTC
06-29-2010, 02:57 AM
How about a "sarcasm" smiley?

I so hate sarcasm.

Chris P
06-29-2010, 03:15 AM
Speaking as someone who writes in ESL, I just want to say that I wouldn't mind participating in such a forum, but the main purpose of it still eludes me.

I picture it being more of a "How does my English sound in this piece?" And then we point out awkward phrases ("The Mother walked in while teenagers were sexing"). They surely won't be as bad as that, but you get the point. I edit ESL documents on the side, so I know they can be A LOT of work. Hopefully it will be educational more than just line edits and polishing. I suppose there's no reason people couldn't specify ESL in the OP, though. Just an idea.

Oh, I don't think a sarcastic smiley would be ANY help at all *rolls eyes*

SaraP
06-29-2010, 03:39 AM
Discussion of idioms between languages?

That's an idea...

Personally, I haven't had too much trouble with my ESL writing, but I suppose having some sort of SYW for it would be interesting. I also like the idea of having some sort of culture exchange thingie. Hmmmm.

Kitty Pryde
06-29-2010, 03:43 AM
Hmm, I'm inclined to create an "International District" in . . . maybe Pop Culture? . . . and we can attach a "Writing in ESL" SYW forum the way the poetry and politics SYW areas are attached? It may be that creating the space will create its own traffic. If it's largely unused, we can always blend it back into the other rooms and call it off, at some future point.

Ooh that sounds neat!

Terie
06-29-2010, 11:14 PM
My best guess is that when we changed the time-out to 90 minutes from 20, the server has to poll the database less often -- hence the swifter pageloads.

Not sure whether this is related or not, but all day, when I click a link that should take me to the first unread post, it takes me to the first one unread as of some time in the wee hours of this morning...that is, I've been in the thread several times today in and a couple of case even posted to it, but instead of going to the actual first unread post, it keeps going back to a post that I've been to multiple times today. (Is this making sense?) Oh, and to clarify, there ARE actually new posts I haven't read yet....it's just not going to those.

The behaviour isn't uniform. Some threads are behaving correctly but others, well, if I have to see that one by (someone) in (a particular thread) one more time, I might scream. LOL!

ETA: And another thing. Threads whose last posts I read more than 12 hours ago are still marked as unread.

Medievalist
06-29-2010, 11:35 PM
Terie, have you actually had AW open in a browser window for several hours?

maxmordon
06-29-2010, 11:41 PM
I also like the idea of having some sort of culture exchange thingie. Hmmmm.

Yes, that is what I think would be quite interesting.

Terie
06-29-2010, 11:50 PM
Terie, have you actually had AW open in a browser window for several hours?

I've been on two computers, including one (the one I'm on right now) that I shut down (not hibernated) while I was at work.

Allow me to clarify. I un-hibernated (:D) and subsequently went to AW (in Netscape) this morning around 6:00 am my time (I'm in the UK) and read, among other things, the posts in BR&BC by IDGS in the Severed Press thread and by Saanen in the Milkweed thread. I did not have to re-sign in to AW; it always signs me in automatically (or whatever function that is). Before I left for work, I shut down my broswer and then the machine (again, a complete shut down, not just a hibernate).

At work, I'd left my machine on running a l-o-n-g process overnight, but had closed down all my browsers (and everything else, for that matter, other than the app running the process). When I fired up my browser (Firefox) and went to AW on a break, those posts were still marked as unread. And this was also when I noticed that the NEPAT thread kept taking me back to a post from the wee hours. That continued happening all day.

When I got home from work, I fired up my machine, launched my browser, went to AW, and saw the unusual behaviour continuing.

Here's (http://www.teriegarrison.com/AW29June10.gif) a screen capture from a little while ago that STILL shows the Severed Press and Milkweed threads as unread.

This has never happened before today. I mean the behaviour of the board, not my pattern of reading it. (i iz not teh AW addict, i swearz it. :D)

I hope this helps. You can PM me if you want to take this offline.

tjwriter
06-29-2010, 11:57 PM
It does that to me occasionally. I have to logout and log back in or log out and close my browser or log out and stay away (OMG!) from AW for awhile to get it to behave properly. I think it might be some sort of cookie glitch.

Medievalist
06-30-2010, 12:09 AM
It does that to me occasionally. I have to logout and log back in or log out and close my browser or log out and stay away (OMG!) from AW for awhile to get it to behave properly. I think it might be some sort of cookie glitch.

That's exactly what it is. Sometime by logging out you force the browser to update the cookie.

Medievalist
06-30-2010, 10:20 PM
How about a "sarcasm" smiley?

Thanks to kuwisdelu, we now have a sarcasm smiley:

:sarcasm

There's a whole list of smileys you can use here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&editorid=vB_Editor_001).

The more subversive ones are farther down the list.

To use them without having to find it and click on it, you simply need to know the name, and to type : the name of the smiley, without any spaces between the colon and the name.

So typing deadhorse after a : gives you

:deadhorse

Maryn
07-01-2010, 01:40 AM
Although I don't use a lot of smilies, that one could prevent a fair number of fistfights.

Maryn, her dukes up just in case

kuwisdelu
07-01-2010, 03:44 AM
Thanks to kuwisdelu, we now have a sarcasm smiley:

:sarcasm

There's a whole list of smileys you can use here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&editorid=vB_Editor_001).

The more subversive ones are farther down the list.

To use them without having to find it and click on it, you simply need to know the name, and to type : the name of the smiley, without any spaces between the colon and the name.

So typing deadhorse after a : gives you

:deadhorse


Although I don't use a lot of smilies, that one could prevent a fair number of fistfights.

Maryn, her dukes up just in case

*bows*

Ken
07-01-2010, 03:52 AM
What would you LOVE LOVE LOVE to see available at AW?

... one small suggestion. The featured books at the top of the screen by AWers are really cool and inspiring. One thing though is that it's often hard to say which AWer is the author of the book. So maybe their username might be listed under the book cover.

----------------------------

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. vv

MacAllister
07-01-2010, 04:06 AM
Ken, people don't all want their username associated with the name they're publishing under.

poetinahat
07-01-2010, 06:47 AM
Pipe-dream stuff, which is more something I'd send to the good folks at vBulletin:

It would be neat to be able to configure what shows up in New Posts, either an opt-in or opt-out model (say, for example, be able NOT to show P&CE, or particular threads; OR, have New Posts only show threads from SYW - Novels and Office Party).

It would also be neat to be able to auto-login to password-protected subforums, so that the typical punter doesn't have to type the password every time. Which would mean that New Posts could include updates in threads in the Walled Gardens of AW.

KTC
07-01-2010, 03:19 PM
It would also be neat to be able to auto-login to password-protected subforums, so that the typical punter doesn't have to type the password every time. Which would mean that New Posts could include updates in threads in the Walled Gardens of AW.

If you don't log out when you leave the site, all the passwords remain...and all the password protected 'gardens' DO show up in your New Posts. Just don't log out when you leave.

Medievalist
07-01-2010, 08:58 PM
It would also be neat to be able to auto-login to password-protected subforums, so that the typical punter doesn't have to type the password every time. Which would mean that New Posts could include updates in threads in the Walled Gardens of AW.

This is normal Cookie-governed behavior. Your passwords are all stored in a local Browser cookie. If you log out, you'll need to log back in--everywhere .

But if you click the "keep me logged in" option, no password should be needed.

I'd try deleting your cookies.

poetinahat
07-02-2010, 03:26 AM
See, this is what I get for deleting cookies every time I shut down my browser. But thanks!

KTC
07-02-2010, 05:15 AM
See, this is what I get for deleting cookies every time I shut down my browser. But thanks!

one must never delete da cookies. one must eat and eat da cookies. cookie good.

Medievalist
07-02-2010, 05:19 AM
Speaking of Cookies--O You Blessed Members in Canada and New Zealand . . .

Do you have McVitie's Biscuits there? Jaffa cakes? Plain Chocolate Digestives and then the wheatmeal/no choc digestives?

Or are they UK only?

KTC
07-02-2010, 05:23 AM
we have all the UK stuff...if not available in the grocery stores, we can always go to one of a dozen local UK specialty stores. They're everywhere. (-:

SaraP
07-02-2010, 03:15 PM
Tsk tsk. (we need a tsk tsk smiley)

:D

Mr Flibble
07-03-2010, 01:24 AM
Everything moved! Are you trying to mess with my head? The new international forum has been in two different places already and I lost BWQ for a mo there....

Parametric
07-03-2010, 01:26 AM
I'd really love it if there was an easy way to reply to reps. For example, if I was reading a rep and I could click on a PM button right next to it and send a reply to the person who repped me, that would be fantastic.

MacAllister
07-03-2010, 01:26 AM
Muahahahahhahahah!!! I've also press-ganged two new mods, but neither of 'em has noticed yet.

Medievalist
07-03-2010, 01:28 AM
I'd really love it if there was an easy way to reply to reps. For example, if I was reading a rep and I could click on a PM button right next to it and send a reply to the person who repped me, that would be fantastic.

That's a vBulletin thing, and I will pass it on to the developers.

I think it's a great idea, personally.

Yeshanu
07-03-2010, 02:10 AM
:yessmiley I love this one! Where have you been all my life, Yes-lady? :D

kuwisdelu
07-03-2010, 04:52 AM
Basic Writing Questions does make more sense there.

It's location always kind of bothered me a little bit...

tjwriter
07-04-2010, 09:02 PM
Muahahahahhahahah!!! I've also press-ganged two new mods, but neither of 'em has noticed yet.

It always scares me when she starts doing this.

This place is getting really big. It needs a roadmap.

EFCollins
07-07-2010, 10:37 PM
Mac, I had an idea for the B&BC board. How about a separation for magazines from book publishers? Just for ease of use. It's hard to find ezines amongst all the book publishers, at least for me it is.

SaraP
07-07-2010, 10:38 PM
How about a drooling smilie?

MacAllister
07-08-2010, 12:06 AM
SaraP, if you find a legal, usable smiley, send the url to medievalist to take a look at. :) We'll add one if we can find one that's legal for us to use.

Sophia
07-08-2010, 12:23 AM
I was wondering if the Beta Readers, Mentors, and Writing Partners board could maybe be expanded to include writing buddies. It's for people who are quite isolated, and want, basically, a friend who writes. I made a post for that last year, and at the time I couldn't see anything similar there. I've seen a couple more recently, and hopefully they've worked out for the posters. I thought perhaps that adding that to the description might encourage others to ask who have difficulty, for whatever reason, making connections like that through posting in the other forum areas.

Medievalist
07-08-2010, 08:10 PM
How about a drooling smilie?

How's this one?

:drool

MacAllister
07-08-2010, 09:28 PM
That's a quite reasonable proposition, ElaraSophia. Let me check with that room mod about how best to implement your suggestion.

SaraP
07-08-2010, 11:19 PM
How's this one?

:drool

You guys are SO fabulously awesome! Thanks!

Namatu
07-08-2010, 11:37 PM
How's this one?

:droolThis smiley looks stoned!

Ken
07-09-2010, 01:51 AM
... make Blacbird return.

MaryMumsy
07-09-2010, 05:53 AM
It's probably not feasible because of bandwidth usage (or some other thing I don't understand), but it would be nice to be able to see rep comments you have sent. Even just the last 5 or 10. I frequently have attacks of "did I leave a word out, did it say what I wanted it to say" immediately after hitting the post button.

MM

Medievalist
07-09-2010, 06:12 AM
It's probably not feasible because of bandwidth usage (or some other thing I don't understand), but it would be nice to be able to see rep comments you have sent. Even just the last 5 or 10. I frequently have attacks of "did I leave a word out, did it say what I wanted it to say" immediately after hitting the post button.

MM

It would be nice, but it's not a feature supported by the software that runs the forum. I'll keep it in mind though in terms of future upgrades, and let Mac know if I find something that's reasonable.

Silver King
07-09-2010, 06:13 AM
...I frequently have attacks of "did I leave a word out, did it say what I wanted it to say" immediately after hitting the post button.
That happens to me sometimes also. What I've found helpful to ease my nerves is to copy and paste the rep comment into a Word document to proof the comments before sending it along. It's a little extra work but worth it for peace of mind.

(Yeah, I'm anal, and proud of it!)

cray
07-09-2010, 06:52 AM
ew.

Eddyz Aquila
07-12-2010, 05:56 AM
Perhaps we could add some extra themes to the board layout and appearance? Something along the lines of warm colours aka yellow and orange?

:)

Medievalist
07-12-2010, 05:59 AM
Perhaps we could add some extra themes to the board layout and appearance? Something along the lines of warm colours aka yellow and orange?

:)

Nope. Single theme. Mac has tweaked said theme a bit, btw.

It has had some interesting . . . um . . . reactions.

Do feel free to do all manner of things to tweak your Profile though.

Kitty Pryde
07-12-2010, 06:34 AM
Perhaps we could add some extra themes to the board layout and appearance? Something along the lines of warm colours aka yellow and orange?

:)

Bright orange AW theme? I smell an April Fool's day prank there...

Medievalist
07-12-2010, 07:23 AM
Bright orange AW theme? I smell an April Fool's day prank there...

I have attempted to persuade Mac that something Paisley, or Plaid would be loverly as an AW theme.

She has thus far entirely failed to appreciate my aesthetic sensibility.

I can't think why.

She's also unilaterally vetoed the idea of the body font being Comic Sans.

SaraP
07-12-2010, 07:26 AM
Ooooooohhh Orange plaid with purple comic sans font ....

:drool

Chris P
07-12-2010, 11:54 PM
How about some notification when quoted? I don't always want to subscribe to a thread, but it would be nice to know when someone quoted me (for my own ego but also if they have questions, disagree, or otherwise). Perhaps something in our stats saying "Find posts in which Chris P was quoted", similar to the "Find all posts by Chris P."

Seems you'd have to find a way to search for user names within quotes. It's something I could do without if it's not practical, but I won't know unless I ask.

Medievalist
07-13-2010, 12:19 AM
Seems you'd have to find a way to search for user names within quotes. It's something I could do without if it's not practical, but I won't know unless I ask.

Chris I'll keep an eye out for that as a possible feature on the vBulletin development lists and let MacAllister know if I see anything, but that's actually a fairly stressful query in terms of the server/database, given the numbers of posts on a daily basis.

What I'd suggest is that you might subscribe without notification to threads you're interested in or where you've posted, and peruse them. Once they're no longer active, you can unsubscribe.

Freelancer
07-15-2010, 01:55 AM
How about a "Rename thread" option in the SYW section? The OP may change the title in his / her first post. It would be very useful in that section as sometimes people are making five or six threads regarding the very same, but modified query.

Priene
07-15-2010, 06:49 PM
Speaking of Cookies--O You Blessed Members in Canada and New Zealand . . .

Do you have McVitie's Biscuits there? Jaffa cakes? Plain Chocolate Digestives and then the wheatmeal/no choc digestives?

Or are they UK only?

They're not cookies, they're biscuits. Apart from Jaffa Cakes, which have been proven in a court of law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes) to be cakes.

Chris P
07-15-2010, 08:01 PM
Chris I'll keep an eye out for that as a possible feature on the vBulletin development lists and let MacAllister know if I see anything, but that's actually a fairly stressful query in terms of the server/database, given the numbers of posts on a daily basis.

No problem. If it's a pain I can do without it.

And regarding freelancer's question, why aren't we able to edit thread titles? Just curious.

MacAllister
07-15-2010, 08:27 PM
You know, That's a good question.

The software default is that members can't, moderators can. But I did recently change the default to fifteen minutes, so if you notice a typo, you've got a window to edit it.

We've had, on occasion, members who used deliberately inflammatory and provocative thread titles, but not being able to edit them doesn't solve that issue -- it just means that if a moderator edits a thread title, the offending member could, theoretically, edit back over the top. But again, that's really a different issue, and it's silly to restrict everyone on the basis of some idiot someday might...

So I'm drawing a blank. But I also haven't had nearly enough caffeine yet.

Can anyone think of any good reason that members shouldn't simply be able to edit their own thread titles?

MacAllister
07-15-2010, 08:51 PM
Okay. You guys can now edit your own thread titles. You have to go to the advanced interface for the option.

tjwriter
07-15-2010, 09:20 PM
Members, now with more power!


Muhahahahaha*hack*hack*!

Chris P
07-15-2010, 09:30 PM
I figured it had something to do with slowing down trolls, but I wasn't sure how.

MacAllister
07-15-2010, 10:16 PM
Chris P, I suppose maybe. But since any member can create an original thread title when he or she starts a thread anyway, being able to revise it seems like the positives far outweigh any negatives I can think of.

maxmordon
07-15-2010, 10:28 PM
Okay. You guys can now edit your own thread titles. You have to go to the advanced interface for the option.

This is something very good.

CACTUSWENDY
07-16-2010, 12:13 AM
I bet I missed the post.....but....what's up with all the double underlined green words? When you land on them you get little 'ads' that you can go to.

Is this from the AW or from google...or whatever?

(Inquiring minds want to know.)

MacAllister
07-16-2010, 12:17 AM
Where are you getting those, CactusWendy? On the forums? Because that's just weird, and we're not running anything that should do that. Which browser are you using?

Kitty Pryde
07-16-2010, 12:22 AM
I bet I missed the post.....but....what's up with all the double underlined green words? When you land on them you get little 'ads' that you can go to.

Is this from the AW or from google...or whatever?

(Inquiring minds want to know.)


Maybe you've downloaded some sort of horrible toolbar or adware that's doing that. It sounds like IntelliTXT tho http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IntelliTXT

Chris P
07-16-2010, 12:25 AM
That happens to me on Yahoo and sometimes on someone's blog. I've never seen it here.

Maryn
07-16-2010, 01:05 AM
On another subject for the suggestion box, may I request that when someone posts inappropriate links, they not be replaced with Rickrolling? I get that it's funny and obnoxious at the same time, but when I inadvertently clicked on one, I had other tabs open with partially composed posts (for other sites). Since you can't close the rickroll post (it moves around), I ended up having to close my browser by ending its task, losing what I'd written. When I reopened the browser, I learned my default was apparently to save my tabs when more than one was open, because there it was again. Rick! (I did know how to turn off the sound, change that setting, re-close the browser, and re-open it, thank goodness.)

Now, I acknowledge that I'm not a very techie person, but I'm ahead of some who might not have had the know-how to shut the damned thing up other that rebooting. I'm also aware that for people with iffy internet connections or dial-up, this would have been even more bothersome.

So next time we need to replace offensive links with something else, how about something less troublesome? Kittenwars, perhaps, or cuteoverload.

Maryn, chasing the neighborhood kids on their bikes with her broom

CACTUSWENDY
07-16-2010, 02:12 AM
The box that shows up when you hit the double green lined word has GameVance advertisement at the top of it. It appears to pick out 'key' words. Sigh....how the heck do I get rid of it?.....:evil The box is about 2 1/2 square and has a site addy for whatever the word is about.

CACTUSWENDY
07-16-2010, 02:33 AM
Okay....I researched this and it is now gone.....was a malware thingy.

They have a site that is just for getting rid of it. Thanks for the insight. Carry on.....:D

Medievalist
07-16-2010, 02:44 AM
I'm hearing really really things good about Microsoft's free security suite, even from people who work for the competition :D

It's worth considering, maybe, for Windows users. Also, be cautious about installing multiple protective programs since they can step on each others' toes.

CACTUSWENDY
08-02-2010, 06:15 PM
An idea for a thread.

I welcome tons of new folks here and have read that many do the art work stuff. I ran down through the list of topics and maybe I over looked it, but is there any chance of having a thread for those that do pictures, or such?

They could post their approx. rates and include a site address with some of their work displayed? Since so many folks blog here there might be a need for some art work. Just a thought. (If we already have a site for this....could you post it?)

MacAllister
08-03-2010, 01:26 AM
That's a fun idea, CW - Lemme think about the best way to implement it, but yes! You're absolutely right, it would be both helpful, interesting, and get a little exposure maybe for some good artists.

Said The Sun
08-03-2010, 03:16 AM
I don't know if this has been said already; I've had two glasses of wine so don't hold it against me. Appearance wise, I think this place needs a little icon thingy on the page tab; a little logo like an AW, an actual water cooler, or something (I don't know if you guys already have a logo--again the wine) but it would look way cuter on my favorites bookmark toolbar :D
That's all.

Medievalist
08-03-2010, 05:30 AM
I don't know if this has been said already; I've had two glasses of wine so don't hold it against me. Appearance wise, I think this place needs a little icon thingy on the page tab; a little logo like an AW, an actual water cooler, or something (I don't know if you guys already have a logo--again the wine) but it would look way cuter on my favorites bookmark toolbar :D
That's all.

That's a fav icon. Right now, the logo doesn't really work reduced to 16 pixels, but the owner, MacAllister is contemplating possibilities.

BenPanced
08-03-2010, 09:20 AM
More bacon after every 5000 posts.

Qbynewbie
09-24-2010, 07:26 AM
I dunno if this if this is the right place to make a suggestion. If it's not, please pardon me (and point me to the right place ;)). I do know that while I haven't been around here for very long, I do like it quite a lot. The software runs great, the community seems to be terrific, folks are friendly and generous and smart and, hey, people are talking about things like grammar and writing here! What's not to like??? :)

So please take this small suggestion as just that: it doesn't even rise to the level of a request.

While I've only been around here for a very short time, I've spent a fair amount of time on other vBulletin-based boards, some of which are oriented towards pilots. On one of them, I have (I should probably be fairly embarrassed to write this) something in excess of 24,000 posts. :tongue And they sometimes tell me that I write too much. :D

While perusing forums, I usually use "New Posts" to see what threads have been updated. If I find an interesting thread, I may spend some time reading it and then find myself at the bottom of a long thread. At that point, I'll scroll up and click on "New Posts" again to get an updated list of new posts. Evidently, this is fairly common forum behavior. On two of the pilot forums, the administrator made a very simple change that made things just a bit easier, especially if you're reading the forums on a mobile phone. The change involved simply adding a link for "New Posts" on the bottom status bar, next to "Contact Us". It seemed a very minor change to me when they made it but I found it to be quite useful and evidently others liked it a lot, too. So I toss it out into the ether for consideration. :)

Finally, I'd like to offer two comments. To whoever is the system administrator, I'd like to offer my congratulations. This system runs well; it's fast, well-organized, easy to navigate and a pleasure to use. This is without a doubt due in no small part to your efforts. Kudos to you for spending the time to keep this place running so well. And then to the mods, I'd also like to offer my congratulations. Software aside, this place runs well as a community. That's certainly a tribute to the members themselves but it's also a credit to what seems to be almost invisible moderation. Somehow, you folks have found the magic touch that has allowed this place to be the great place it seems to be. That's not easy and something that many forums never really achieve. So my hat's off to you folks, too. :)

Frye
09-25-2010, 02:14 AM
Am I the only one perturbed by the oversized header in here? Promoting books written by us (or rather: those who like me are members of the forum, but unlike me, are published) is great. I wholeheartedly agree with the concept. The other links up there are great, too. However, does it really need to be the height and width of an entire computer monitor, so that every time I click to view something, I have to scroll down just to see what I've clicked on?

If I'm not alone, I have a fix-it suggestion: these links are small enough that they might be lined up in a row or two, rather than a column, thus conserving space and allowing us to see the content we wish to view.

Thoughts? Feelings?

MacAllister
09-25-2010, 06:34 AM
Frye, the header space varies some, depending on whether or not we have ads placed with us (like the Backspace ad currently in place) and while I appreciate that it's not the most elegant design to have to scroll down to get to the posts, it also pays a significant portion of our bills.

As for re-arranging the links...I'll at least look into that, and whether it can be done without sacrificing readability. We've actually reduced the amount of stuff that used to be in the header by a fairly tremendous amount, during the last few years -- but it's one of the things I'm always aware of as an ongoing issue, and working to improve.

Qbynewbie, thanks for your very kind words, and I know what you mean about a "new posts" link at the bottom, rather than needing to click "Top" then click "New Posts" (Which is how I generally read the forums, too.) I'll look into what it would take to put the New Posts php link in that bottom toolbar, as well.

Sophia
09-28-2010, 11:55 PM
I was wondering if the Upcoming Events for the Next 7 Day(s) section could be moved to somewhere more prominent, like the User CP, perhaps? I think that at the moment, it can only be seen at the bottom of the forum index page. I know the header area is very full, and thought the User CP page might be a good alternative for an oft-accessed area for it, so we can regularly see what's coming up.

Hip-Hop-a-potamus
09-29-2010, 09:25 PM
Somebody guide me if I'm missing it, but one of the other forums I used to belong to had a "My Posts" link where you could check to see how discussions were going in some of the forums in which you'd recently posted.

To do that here, I've been going up to Search and entering my name. Is there an easier way of doing this? Or failing that, a My Posts link would be great.

Kitty Pryde
09-29-2010, 09:52 PM
If you have your profile set to automatically subscribe to threads you post in, when you click on "User CP" a list of all those threads that have been updated will appear :)

SaraP
09-30-2010, 12:08 AM
That's what I do. The thread subscription option (in Thread Tools) also allows you to follow discussions you're interested in but haven't participated in yet.

Hip-Hop-a-potamus
09-30-2010, 03:32 AM
Thanks guys, ElaraSophia PM'd me with good info as well. I knew I had to be really dense or something!

poetinahat
09-30-2010, 10:57 AM
Know what would be cool, though more work than it would be worth? But probably more trouble than it's worth? A "Reps for this post" button, to pull up the reps you got for a particular post.

tjwriter
09-30-2010, 06:24 PM
Poet, if you click on the scale for one of your own posts, it will show what reps it has gotten.

I'll rep your last post here for testing. :D

poetinahat
10-01-2010, 02:47 AM
Hey, how about that! Thank you!

Wayne K
10-24-2010, 04:41 PM
Rep whore

Wayne K
10-24-2010, 04:46 PM
I have a question. Has AW ever given any thought to an art forum? We have one for comic book and graphic artists, but not for drawing and painting.

I've watched Jason Tudor on Face Book do art and used to watch the dude on public television. I don't know how much instruction you can share the way we do here, but it would be an improvement over what I now know

Or would it just be a big pain in the ass?

MacAllister
10-25-2010, 12:29 AM
If there's interest in an art forum, Wayne, we'll certainly look into it. Poet, it seems like there might be a "reps for this post" feature already -- it seems familiar, anyway...I think from the post itself, if you click on your own rep scales?

scarletpeaches
10-25-2010, 12:33 AM
I suggest anyone called scarletpeaches should get a free sammich and bag of sweets.

Wayne K
10-25-2010, 12:56 AM
Scales? I thought that was a mushroom

Mr Flibble
10-27-2010, 04:08 PM
For a while I thought it was a tree...


My husband has a complaint about my sparkle pony. He says it doesn't poop rainbows. This makes him sad.

SaraP
10-27-2010, 04:56 PM
How does he know it doesn't? Has he seen what it does poop?

:D

Mr Flibble
10-28-2010, 02:20 PM
Good point

However, I may have solved the problem.

What do you think?

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/spinynorman_2006/sparkle2.gif

pangalactic
10-28-2010, 05:27 PM
Good point

However, I may have solved the problem.

What do you think?

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/spinynorman_2006/sparkle2.gif

I just sprayed milk out of my nose onto my keyboard.

Mr Flibble
10-28-2010, 09:10 PM
Excellent! So it would make a good avie, yes? Apart from me owing people new keyboards :D

Or maybe this?

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/spinynorman_2006/poop.jpg

Decisions, decisions...

ETA: nix that one. Words are too small. :(

EETA:
Poet, if you click on the scale for one of your own posts, it will show what reps it has gotten. Doesn't work for me. It does ask me if I want to rep myself though :D

SaraP
10-28-2010, 09:21 PM
Excellent! So it would make a good avie, yes? Apart from me owing people new keyboards :D

Or maybe this?

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/spinynorman_2006/poop.jpg



:roll:

nikole957
11-29-2010, 06:28 AM
Yeah, where are we gonna find one of those rare and endangered creatures round here?

Unicorns are a piece of piss, though.

Well if we're going ask for things we can't have...a dragon. A big black one wiv like flamey spurts and a bad temper. I shall park it over parliament and tell those MPs to do what I say or else I may need a special tiara too. With built in laser guns.

MacAllister
11-29-2010, 06:34 AM
Aw, hell, nikole957 - you actually seem smart and interesting and like a human being. Why do you have to be a sig-spammer? Do you have any idea what a bummer that is?

Mr Flibble
11-29-2010, 01:23 PM
Well if we're going ask for things we can't have...a dragon. A big black one wiv like flamey spurts and a bad temper. I shall park it over parliament and tell those MPs to do what I say or else I may need a special tiara too. With built in laser guns.


That's plagiarism!

BTW I still haven't got my dragon. OR my tiara.

MacAllister
11-29-2010, 10:57 PM
I'm actually relieved that it's plagiarism, honestly - that makes lots more sense, then.

Mr Flibble
11-30-2010, 12:14 AM
I see how you cunningly slid away from the question of 'where is my dragon and laser-gun-toting tiara?'

You're a sly fox, Mac. :D

Kyla Laufreyson
11-30-2010, 01:28 AM
Hi! I just wanted to say that considering in ten pages of stuff, there's barely been any actual suggestions, this place is awesome.

And I agree. This place is awesome. I'm very new (but obviously here a lot, considering my post count) and I love how it's run. It's given me a great place to talk to other people who are into writing for publication, which is a nice step up from FictionPress (<--Site I used to lived on)

tjwriter
11-30-2010, 02:24 AM
Over in the Anal Glands thread, it's been decided that we need a puking smiley. I'm so sure we used to have one. I don't know what happened to it.

Kyla Laufreyson
11-30-2010, 06:14 AM
Okay, now I have a suggestion. Less creepy pictures at the top of the page. The demon-imp with children thing is really kinda creeping me out.

MacAllister
11-30-2010, 06:16 AM
Hee! That's Krampus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krampus) - it's an old version of Santa's helper. And sort of an AW tradition, now, too (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197820).