use of comma before and

ElizaFaith13

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Do you need to always put a comma before and? I thought it was a preference.


His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon, and it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

I got my MS back from my school today. The teacher said that my story is very engaging and she loved reading it. Her only advice was to do some line editing and focus on my comma use. After going through a few pages it's basically the same error. Missing a comma before and & but.
 

Elle

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You need a comma because you have two independent clauses you're trying to connect. I suggest looking up comma usage rules.
 

Terie

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As Elle said, in the example you give, you're separating two independent clauses with the conjunction 'and', and in some places (such as school), it is considered incorrect to leave out the comma. This rule is evolving...that is, it's loosening, but for anything you turn in for school, you might as well err on the safe side. :)

As far as a serial comma (whether to use a comma before 'and' or 'or' in a list), that's definitely optional. Both styles are correct; just be consistent. Either always use the serial comma or always omit it. Don't mix. And if you have a teacher/professor who states a preference, use that for papers turned in for that class, regardless of your own preference. If you start submitting your work for consideration for publication, it doesn't hurt you whichever you choose; again, just be consistent.
 

ElizaFaith13

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As far as a serial comma (whether to use a comma before 'and' or 'or' in a list), that's definitely optional. Both styles are correct; just be consistent. Either always use the serial comma or always omit it. Don't mix. And if you have a teacher/professor who states a preference, use that for papers turned in for that class, regardless of your own preference. If you start submitting your work for consideration for publication, it doesn't hurt you whichever you choose; again, just be consistent.


I think I picked this up in a college course. The class was delving into grammar in a very liberal way (if that makes sense). There was a lot about descriptive grammar and being pregnant I probably didn't grab all of it.

If I'm understanding you correctly "cocoon, and" & "cocoon and" are both correct? It's just a matter of consistency?
 

Duncan J Macdonald

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I think I picked this up in a college course. The class was delving into grammar in a very liberal way (if that makes sense). There was a lot about descriptive grammar and being pregnant I probably didn't grab all of it.

If I'm understanding you correctly "cocoon, and" & "cocoon and" are both correct? It's just a matter of consistency?
The Serial Comma is one in lists. For example:

One, two, and three. --Or -- One, two and three.

I always use the serial comma since it adds clarity. Most newspapers omit it because is uses both space and ink.

I should add that I work for the Federal Government, and our Style Manual mandates the use of the serial comma.
 

James D. Macdonald

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His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon, and it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

Equally, but with slightly different meaning,

His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon, then it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

You could punctuate that in a lot of ways.

For example, as two sentences:

His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon. It would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

Or....

His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon; it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon: It would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon--it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon...it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon (it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed).

Each has a different feel.

In school, you have to do what your teacher wants. Out here in the world, you can do anything you want.
 

Ryan_Sullivan

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I think in this instance a dash or period would be good. It's all about pacing. You don't want your reader to go through a sentence like that so quickly. You want them to slow down and really take in the gravity of the situation.
 

Terie

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Honestly, this is the first I heard of this. Why would you need a comma before and?

Before but, yes.

Before then, yes.

But not before and.

Well, it's just an old grammar rule that two independent clauses separated by a conjunction require a comma before the conjunction. It's falling out of fashion, but many old-school folks still think it's required. I follow the rule religiously in formal writing (technical writing for my day job, papers for post-grad university work, editing for clients writing academic white papers) and less religiously in informal writing (novels and short stories).
 

Terie

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Ziljon, I'm not disputing you on any grounds except for that looks wrong to me. That feels like it should be a semi-colon.

You're correct, Kateness. Ziljon's example is a classic sample of a comma splice.

For a compound sentence (a sentence composed of two independent clauses), you separate them with either a semicolon or a comma and a conjunction. Or, of course, a period. Thus:

INCORRECT: His entire body had been wrapped up like a chicken's egg and shell, it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

CORRECT: His entire body had been wrapped up like a chicken's egg and shell, and it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

CORRECT: His entire body had been wrapped up like a chicken's egg and shell; it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

CORRECT: His entire body had been wrapped up like a chicken's egg and shell. It would only be a few more minutes Before his neck was enclosed.

(Sources: The Elements of Style, by Strunk and White; The Elements of Grammar, by Margaret Shertzer; The Merriam-Webster Concise Handbook for Writers; The Oxford Manual of Style; The Oxford Essential Guide to the English Language; and so on.)
 
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ElizaFaith13

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Well, it's just an old grammar rule that two independent clauses separated by a conjunction require a comma before the conjunction. It's falling out of fashion, but many old-school folks still think it's required. I follow the rule religiously in formal writing (technical writing for my day job, papers for post-grad university work, editing for clients writing academic white papers) and less religiously in informal writing (novels and short stories).


In my entire MS I never used a comma before and. I did use it before but though. If this is a grammar rule that is sorta falling out. What do Literary agents want?
 

Terie

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In my entire MS I never used a comma before and. I did use it before but though. If this is a grammar rule that is sorta falling out. What do Literary agents want?

There are very few universal rules in English. You can't say that every 'and' and 'but' must (or must not) be preceded by a comma; there are many occasions when they shouldn't be. It all depends on context, voice, tone, and so on.

You best bet is to get a couple of grammar books that present things in an easy-to-understand format. The Elements of Style by Strunk and White is a classic. A junior-high textbook on grammar is another great resource for learning. Elsewhere, someone mentioned Grammar for Dummies.

Since I do corporate writing for my day job and even some freelance corporate editing, I have several shelves of reference books next to my computer desk (British and American dictionaries, British and American usage dictionaries, British and American grammar books, books on editing, information design, human-computer interface, and on and on and on). Most writers don't need that many. :D

But I hold to the belief that any writer worth their salt will have a few reference books (or reputable websites) at their fingertips to consult when questions come up, as they inevitably will.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Well, it's just an old grammar rule that two independent clauses separated by a conjunction require a comma before the conjunction. It's falling out of fashion, but many old-school folks still think it's required. I follow the rule religiously in formal writing (technical writing for my day job, papers for post-grad university work, editing for clients writing academic white papers) and less religiously in informal writing (novels and short stories).

How old school? I'm 52. Learned grammar rules in the late 60s. Never heard that rule and I never apply it in technical writing, and I never applied it when I attended college in the 80s.

But oddly, I used it in that sentence. :D
 

Terie

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How old school? I'm 52. Learned grammar rules in the late 60s. Never heard that rule and I never apply it in technical writing, and I never applied it when I attended college in the 80s.

But oddly, I used it in that sentence. :D

I'm 49. I never learned it in school, either, but then, teaching grammar formally was out of fashion when I was in school. :) I picked up this particular rule from an elderly lady for whom I pet-sat in the early 1990s who had a master's degree in Linguistics and pointed it out to me when she was reading a short story I'd written. I went home and looked it up in my grammar books, and behold, she was right.

Of the books I referenced above, copyrights go from mid-1930s to the mid-2000s, so they certainly more than cover our lifetime! LOL!
 

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I learned it. I'm nearly 40. I noticed that it wasn't used consistently by most folks. That's cool with me ;)
 

Bufty

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If the deliberate omission of a comma before 'and' is a matter of habit, one should be careful the omission of that comma does not give a choice as to the meaning of the relative sentence or cause the sentence to become clumsy.

It's preferable to learn when to apply it.
 

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How old school? I'm 52. Learned grammar rules in the late 60s. Never heard that rule and I never apply it in technical writing, and I never applied it when I attended college in the 80s.

But oddly, I used it in that sentence. :D

I'm 20, and I HAVE learned it. We've discussed it a lot in upper devision comp. classes (by multiple professors, multiple ages from late 20's to 50's). Truly, a comma before an independent clause is necessary, because 9 times out of 10 the sentence will be confusing. It's just a good practice.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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THis is where I get snotty and go "well, la de da." :D

But seriously, it is quite possible I learned it, along with dozens of other rules, and just forgot it over the years. If something isn't reinforced, you tend to forget it.

Now I'm going to go break out my grammar books and relearn things.

Knowledge is power!
 

Chase

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Do you need to always put a comma before and? I thought it was a preference.


His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon, and it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.


No, Elizafaith, you do not always put a comma before and--or any of the other six coordinating conjunctions.

Yes, Elizafaith, you do put a comma after the first clause of your sample sentence: His entire body had been wrapped up like a spider's cocoon, and it would only be a few more minutes before his neck was enclosed.

However, the comma has nothing to do with which word it precedes. It has everything to do with the construction of the sentence.

I taught high school English six years and college English seventeen years. I know of no competent English teacher who would instruct to "put a comma before" any word. No text would back up such shoddy instruction.

Sorry, that’s not how punctuation works. I’m surprised that in 22 replies no writer has mentioned this simple fact.
 

Terie

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Sorry, that’s not how punctuation works. I’m surprised that in 22 replies no writer has mentioned this simple fact.

Huh? What part of this is 'not mentioning this simple fact'? :D

There are very few universal rules in English. You can't say that every 'and' and 'but' must (or must not) be preceded by a comma; there are many occasions when they shouldn't be. It all depends on context, voice, tone, and so on.
 

Chase

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Huh? What part of this is 'not mentioning this simple fact'? :D

I'm sorry I glossed over your very correct response, Terie. It's age. I awoke this morning 69 years of age, most of my hair gone, and I can't hear.