When Sending your MS to an Editor,

Probably depends on the editor, but most of them will immediately reject an MS (without any detailed input) for grammar problems. They get so many MSs they often use stuff like that to make the first chop. Edit, edit, edit! Your story might be great but they will never know if the first page looks amateurish. I've had editors want revisions on shorts, but those were mostly to clarify the story line and only AFTER they had decided they want to run it. An editor that will ask for revisions and ask you to resubmit does happen, but is rare.

Are you asking about submitting to editors at publishing houses, or to an editor you've hired to edit your manuscript?

If the former, look at it this way: in the old days of typewriters, more than about one error per page (typically a typo as opposed to an out-and-out grammatical error) would be grounds for rejection. In these days of computers, when corrections are a zillion times easier? Expectations are even higher. One every few pages at most would be overlooked; more than that is too many.

Writing for publication is a profession, and professional standards are expected. Would you go to an interview for a corporate office job dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, with your hair mucked up and not having taken a shower? That's the equivalent of submitting an error-ridden manuscript for consideration for publication, and you'll get the same result.

If you're asking about an editor you've hired, you still want to make the manuscript as clean as possible. Why would you pay someone else to fix things you can fix yourself? And if you're hoping for a career as a professional writer, you need to be able to edit spelling and grammar errors yourself; that's one of the primary skills of the job.

Whether a paid editor will edit your mistakes, ignore them, or refuse the job will depend on the editor and the agreement between you. If you want a content edit because you don't want to spend time on fixing grammar errors until you're sure the content is set, you can discuss this with the editor. I don't do content editing, but if I did, I would be quite happy to take a job where the writer specified they didn't want me to address grammar; not all editors might work that way.

The question I can't help but pose is this: if you want to be a professional writer, why would you be willing for anyone to see your work without having written and edited it to a professional standard first?

Do not send anything to an editor or agent that has obvious problems with anything--grammar certainly included! It will be taken as a sign that you are either lazy or uninformed, and not yet ready for prime time. At best, you can pretty much count on a form rejection. Editors don't have time to deal with "amateurs" (I am not saying you are, but that's how it will come off). Your manuscript is a reflection of you. Do whatever you must to make it perfect as can be before submitting.

linfred4 said:

Thanks, for the reply's.

I am doing a lot of the editing myself, and I am not hiring anyone to do the editing for me. I also don't like just anyone reading my stories. I am having my best friend help me, once I have edited it the best I can and well keep on editing if you know what I mean.
Chris, said some helpful things and so did you two.
Terie, I was wondering about one thing you answered. Will it be ok to have the odd misspelt word?

I know, know one is prefect and there will be that one or so words we will miss. That is what I am a fraid of will that one misspelt word hurt you?

I guess I am just wondering these things because it feels like the editing part will never end. But I know when it's done I will be happy and well so will the readers

Click to expand...

Don't fall into "analysis paralysis." You will never send this thing off if you always think you need to look it over "just one more time." Based on what I've read elsewhere on AW, one error per page or so won't sink you if the story's good. Two or three per page might. And if the story's bad it could be letter perfect and that won't help you.

Give it your best shot, but at some point you are going to need to take a leap of faith at some point.

linfred4 said:

Terie, I was wondering about one thing you answered. Will it be ok to have the odd misspelt word?

I know, know one is prefect and there will be that one or so words we will miss. That is what I am a fraid of will that one misspelt word hurt you?

Click to expand...

The general consensus seems to be no more than one typo every four to five pages or so (on average). More than that, and they start to look askance.

I don't mean this to be as rude as it's going to sound, but please bear with me; I want to give you an idea of what you're facing. In the post to which I'm replying, I counted, at a very quick scan, nine basic spelling and punctuation errors. I know that this is informal communication, and as you say, we all make mistakes; further, I don't make a habit of counting mistakes in people's posts. But, if you're aiming to be a professional writer, you need to pay a bit more attention to these kinds of details, and posts here at AW are great places to practise. That way, you'll get used to writing properly, and far fewer errors will creep into your work.

Countless times, I've heard writers whinge about this. 'Why can't they just look at the story? Why does the writing have to matter if the story is great?' Well, considering the volume of slush drowning agents and editors alike, why contract a book that needs so much work, when a bit further down the slush pile will be one whose story is just as good but needs very little?

So, to go back to your original post, if your first few pages of manuscript had the same ratio of errors as your post does, yes, you'd most likely get a form letter rejection because the writing wasn't up to snuff.

Practise, practise, practise!

What Terie said. Polish it until it shines. Polish it until you're making changes back again to what it used to be. Use the spellcheck. Do a search for "spell check won't catch," and "misspellings," and "confused words," to catch the words like "prefect," in which a typo makes another word.

And if you hire someone, what Terie said again ("If you're asking about an editor you've hired, you still want to make the manuscript as clean as possible. Why would you pay someone else to fix things you can fix yourself?")

I once had a partial returned from a beta with a post it note reading 'you're computer has a spell check' and that was all.

I think it should be as near to perfect as possible before you send it off. editors are not there to catch your spelling and grammar mistakes.

I'm just about to for submit the first time. ::gulp:: I'd say my principle has been to edit to the point where I can't find any more mistakes in it. This is not to say there aren't any! Only that I've spotted all the ones I can after editing and editing some more and tweaking and spellchecking and tweaking some more and reading a zillion times and spellchecking once more for luck and one last read...

linfred4 said:

Thanks, for the reply's.

I am doing a lot of the editing myself, and I am not hiring anyone to do the editing for me. I also don't like just anyone reading my stories. I am having my best friend help me, once I have edited it the best I can and well keep on editing if you know what I mean.
Chris, said some helpful things and so did you two.
Terie, I was wondering about one thing you answered. Will it be ok to have the odd misspelt word?

I know, know one is prefect and there will be that one or so words we will miss. That is what I am a fraid of will that one misspelt word hurt you?

I guess I am just wondering these things because it feels like the editing part will never end. But I know when it's done I will be happy and well so will the readers

Click to expand...

No one is perfect, but there is no excuse for a misspelled word. Spellcheck works, and so do dictionaries.

Homonyms get many writers in trouble. You use "know" instead of "no" in this post.

Grammar and punctuation are the basic tools of the writer's trade, and you must learn grammar and punctuation. This is mandatory. Having someone else correct anything more than extremely minor mistakes doesn't work. If you write a bad sentence, fixing the grammar won't make it a good sentence, it just makes it a bad sentence that uses correct grammar.

If you want to write good sentences, you need to know grammar before you start writing.

A manuscript doesn't have to be perfect, but it must be reasonably close.
Content matters more than grammar and misspelled words, but without good grammar content will suffer. And misspelled words are an indicator that the writer doesn't care enough to check the spelling.

If you have weak areas in grammar or punctuation, sit down and correct them. Grammar isn't rocket science, and anyone can learn enough to get by in a month or so. Same with punctuation.

Misspelled words are nothing more than not taking the time to be sure the spelling is correct.

Problems with homonyms are sometimes a lack of knowledge, but most often just simple carelessness. Either is a bad sign.

I may not be smart, and I may not be witty, but I know somethin': Regardless of your spelling errors (which should be 0), your grammatical errors (which could be unimaginable), if you have something special they will make it work. If it sucks, your grammar and spelling better make Webster look like Corky. That's my three cents.

commasplicer said:

I may not be smart, and I may not be witty, but I know somethin': Regardless of your spelling errors (which should be 0), your grammatical errors (which could be unimaginable), if you have something special they will make it work. If it sucks, your grammar and spelling better make Webster look like Corky. That's my three cents.

Click to expand...

No, they won't. No one can write something special without first knowing basic grammar and punctuation.

When I get a story that contains such errors, I'm not going to read far enough to make it work, even if I could, which I can't. It's the writers job to make it work, the writer's job to make it special, and the writer's job to make damn sure the grammar and punctiation are what they should be.

Editors fix very, very minor errors, sometimes cut a bit, and suggests changes in content. An editor only does this much with astories that are alread very nearly perfect. And even when an editor does want changes, the writer does the work, all of it, and without a solid knowledge of grammar and punctuation going in, the writer can't do the work.

linfred4 said:

Well, I have to say wow. I no my spelling isn't the greatest, and we all are learning no matter what age or how many books we have published. But I have talked to two Agents about my story and they love the story line of it and did adv my grammar and punctuation needs work. Also they told me once I have that down give her a call, which I am very happy about.

So, yes I will take all of your adv and work on it. Trust me I need to. I am also going to come on here a bit more and just practise. So again thanks.
Trust me what ever you guys say to me isn't going to hurt me it's just words and well your adv and we can all use that from time to time.

Click to expand...

That about right. Once you have the grammar and punctuation down, you should give them a call. But what these agents aren't telling you, and probably don't even know because agents are not editors or publishers, or usually even writers, is that you, as teh writer, must know enough basic grammar and punctuation to do teh work yourself.

You don't have to be perfect, you don't have to know everything, or even most of everything. You do have to know enough grammar and punctuation to tell a good story, and to build good characters.

Seventh grade grammar is fine. The book I recommend most often is whatever English book your local jr. high uses. It's simple, it's broekn into easy lessons, it contains everything a writer needs to know, and, more important, it leaves out all the advanced, confusing parts of grammar that darned few writers will even need or use.

Honestly, you probably already know more than you think you do. My guess is you lack terms, not knowledge. Spend a month with Strunk & White, or the same length of time with a seventh grade English book, and you'll probably learn enough to last you a lifetime.

Jamesaritchie...with all this advice you give out, you must be one hell of a writer. What are the titles of your books? I'd love to read one.

commasplicer said:

I may not be smart, and I may not be witty, but I know somethin': Regardless of your spelling errors (which should be 0), your grammatical errors (which could be unimaginable), if you have something special they will make it work. If it sucks, your grammar and spelling better make Webster look like Corky. That's my three cents.

Click to expand...

That's not at all how it works.

Agents, editors, teachers, readers. These people do not have the time or energy or the inclination to pick through your poorly punctuated, misspelled and grammatically incorrect ms in order to find a little glimmer of something they like.

Here's a cold hard fact for you, if a ms is too much work it get the big R. the book industry is a hectic place and people are overworked as it is. no one has time to correct your book for you.

And additionally, if you don't have the respect or worth ethic to correct your own MS to the stage where it is perfect, then people will be reluctant to take you on because you have shown that you just can't be bothered.

Just my 2.

From someone who was taught almost no grammar at school (damn those trendy seventies teaching methods!) I can sympathise.

1 - as James said, get yourself a good basic grammar book. I found 'Grammar for Dummies' a good place to start It explains the basic terms - what a participle is for instance - and when and how they should be used. And even an idiot like me can grasp most of it.

2 - Find a beta who is the dog's bollocks at grammar. Get them to look it over and see where you are making mistakes. I love my grammarian beta

3 - You will probably find that many of your mistakes are similar; we all have our little tics and foibles. Once you know your weakness, you can search for it yourself until you've drummed it into your head.

Seriously, if I can learn it (although I am still learning!), so can you.

IdiotsRUs said:

From someone who was taught almost no grammar at school (damn those trendy seventies teaching methods!) I can sympathise.

1 - as James said, get yourself a good basic grammar book. I found 'Grammar for Dummies' a good place to start It explains the basic terms - what a participle is for instance - and when and how they should be used. And even an idiot like me can grasp most of it.

Click to expand...

I'm reading the English Grammar for Dummies UK edition right now. I'm working through it a chapter a day, like a lesson. Like you I was at school when "grammar = oprushun! " was the attitude, so I mostly absorbed it rather than having any formal teaching in it. The Dummies book is definitely proving useful. Even the chapters on topics I think I already understand are at least teaching me why they work that way and what things are called.

commasplicer said:

Jamesaritchie...with all this advice you give out, you must be one hell of a writer. What are the titles of your books? I'd love to read one.

Click to expand...

I am one hell of a writer. I'm a hell of a good editor, too. Go look for my books.

commasplicer said:

What are the titles of your books? I'd love to read one.

Click to expand...

Google doesn't work any more?