Psychological Evaluation Preceding an Exorcism

RainyDayNinja

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
362
Reaction score
56
Location
Oregon
One of my characters suspects that another might be possessed by a demon. He is a trained minister (though not as an exorcist), and a doctor (though not a psychologist), and wants to examine the other character to determine if it is legitimate demon possession, or a "mundane" mental illness. What kind of questions would he ask? What kind of answers would he expect? What would the set-up be like? (Keep in mind that they are all stranded, and can't contact anyone more qualified) Thanks for any help you can give!
 

DrZoidberg

aka TomOfSweden
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,081
Reaction score
95
Location
Stockholm
Website
tomknox.se
I don't get it. I thought being possessed by a demon was just a different expression for mental illness?

You could try a more traditional approach.

HolyGrail028.jpg
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
I think first I would need to know what demon possession is like in your world, to know how (if?) it could be distinguished from all existing mental illness. Rather than excluding all mental illness it would be easier to identify a characteristic specific to possession (ability to spin head 360 degrees or something). Inclusion criteria are much easier to identify than exclusion criteria.
 

RainyDayNinja

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
362
Reaction score
56
Location
Oregon
I'm trying to keep this as grounded as possible in the real-life policies and procedures of Vatican exorcists (not because I favor Catholicism, but because they seem to have the most in-depth guidelines). I know that policy is to rule out all natural causes before appealing to a supernatural cause, through medical and psychological examination. I just don't know what that examination looks like.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
I just don't see how you could rule out psychological illness as a basis for any an all possible behaviours shown by a person.
 

dirtsider

Not so new, really
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
2,056
Reaction score
166
You might want to go to the Vatican website and see what you can find there.
 

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
20,322
Reaction score
3,513
Location
Transcending Canines
One of my characters suspects that another might be possessed by a demon. He is a trained minister (though not as an exorcist),
If he's Catholic as you imply in your later post, he would be called a priest, not a minister (is Priest capitalized?).
and a doctor (though not a psychologist), and wants to examine the other character to determine if it is legitimate demon possession, or a "mundane" mental illness. What kind of questions would he ask? What kind of answers would he expect? What would the set-up be like? (Keep in mind that they are all stranded, and can't contact anyone more qualified) Thanks for any help you can give!
I read The Ultimate Authority On Exorcism at the time, the novel The Exorcist, and don't recall any medical or psychological examination of the patient, though it's been a long time since I read it. There's a Superceding Authority now, though, named Wikipedia.
I'm trying to keep this as grounded as possible in the real-life policies and procedures of Vatican exorcists (not because I favor Catholicism, but because they seem to have the most in-depth guidelines).
Have Protestants or other non-Catholics even DONE exorcisms? Do the witch trials count?
I just don't see how you could rule out psychological illness as a basis for any an all possible behaviours shown by a person.
I agree, but that won't move the story forward...
 

RainyDayNinja

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
362
Reaction score
56
Location
Oregon
If he's Catholic as you imply in your later post, he would be called a priest, not a minister (is Priest capitalized?).

He's not Catholic per se, because this story takes place a few hundred years in the future, where contact with alien races and their gospels has caused a new reformation, and old labels don't apply.


Have Protestants or other non-Catholics even DONE exorcisms? Do the witch trials count?

They do, but as far as I know, they don't have nearly as many rules and such governing the practice. And witch trials are something completely different.

veinglory said:
I just don't see how you could rule out psychological illness as a basis for any an all possible behaviours shown by a person.

That's the question now, isn't it? :D

I found a website by a Catholic psychologist who does exactly this sort of thing, and I emailed him about it. Hopefully I'll get a useful answer out of it...
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
All I could suggest is diagnosing what mental illness is would be if it was one, and treating for that. If the treatment didn't work, try plan B.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Oh, another approach would be to see exorcism as 'complimentary medicine' like homeopathy etc. It might help, it won't hurt, placebo effect is real--just do it :)
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
The things that tend to stump shrinks (to include all the paradigms and degrees ;)) are things you might think: speaking Latin fluently, things that appear unexplainable by laws of physics, etc. Or do you mean just what kinds of questions/examinations would they do?

It would generally be schizophrenia or one of many dilusional disorders if not possession. So those would be the focus. Look up oriented x 3, etc. related to delusions or psychosis. And the MMPI is always given, but keep in mind there's a ton more than that :) Medical tests, too, of course. Lots of things can cause delusions and hallucinations, so they'd look for any of them.
 

GeorgeK

ever seeking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
6,577
Reaction score
740
I just don't see how you could rule out psychological illness as a basis for any an all possible behaviours shown by a person.


Displaying supernatural abilities or talents that the host should not have, such as levitation or speaking dead languages or revealing personal information of the exorcist. I'm on vacation right now so I can't go upstairs to check my library but I read the biographies of a few exorcists and one of them had a demon mock him by announcing in vivid detail the priest's sex life prior to the seminary. He knew his girlfriend hadn't told anyone because she died in a car wreck soon after their relationship and it took place back in the 30's or so. The demon claimed that the girlfriend told the demon while being tortured in Hell.

The doctor however will want to rule out stuff like sepsis, hallucinogens, etc.. The most dramatic craziness that I've seen that was purely organic have been from hyperparathyroidism, pancreatitis and brain tumors. Obviously there are some drugs out there that will wack someone out too, but I didn't do OD's. those went to the Internists, whereas I'm a surgeon.
 
Last edited:

GeorgeK

ever seeking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
6,577
Reaction score
740
It's not the fact that it's Catholic that is the problem. The problem is that they only deal with major possessions. Minor possessions can probably be self exorcised. In major possessions the basic question is if the human soul is already almost gone and nearly completely supplanted by the demonic. In cases of major possession it is not uncommon for the host to die at the conclusion of an exorcism. The most recent case even was made into a movie. I don't remember the name of the movie but it plays on the Independent Film Channel about once a month. It's in German but it's subtitled.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
I am speaking pragmatically of the physical actions of exorcism as a ritual. To speak of the actual realities of having a demon removed from one's soul I would need to believe in demons, and souls. I think at this point we are discussing how exorcism would interact with psychiatry. And I figure if you don't have a demon in you, it will do not harm. If you do have a demon, it is unlikely to do more harm than just leaving the blighter in there. Ergo there is no real reason to hold off on a precautionary exorcism even if psychiatric explanations cannot be entirely ruled out.
 
Last edited:

mtrenteseau

Mild-mannered accountant by day...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
707
Reaction score
83
Location
Atlanta
It would generally be schizophrenia or one of many dilusional disorders if not possession. So those would be the focus. Look up oriented x 3, etc. related to delusions or psychosis. And the MMPI is always given, but keep in mind there's a ton more than that :) Medical tests, too, of course. Lots of things can cause delusions and hallucinations, so they'd look for any of them.

I'd do a Rorschach or TAT to see what the person's mindset is like before trying to sit them down long enough to do an MMPI.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I'd do a Rorschach or TAT to see what the person's mindset is like before trying to sit them down long enough to do an MMPI.

Yeah, it's going to depend on what school is subscribed to. I figured nearly everyone did the MMPI (it has that nifty malingering scale) when possible, but you are probably right. It could be written many different ways.
 

ElizaFaith13

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
241
Reaction score
14
Location
Strong island NY!
Website
girlgamersunite.blogspot.com
I've seen excorsims first hand and some get pretty nasty.Now I'm going to get very spiritual on ya so stay with me! The first thing to know is that the only way a person can tell if someone is truly possessed is if they have discernment which is a spiritual gift and they have to be saved. Then you have to pray and really let the holy spirit guide you and tell you what spirits are possessing the person. If you don't call out the right ones the person will stay in bondage. here is a quick step guide 1) pray the covering of the blood of the lamb on yourself 2) declare the authority you have in Christ Jesus 3) call out the spirits 4) the now free person must accept Christ into their hearts otherwise the spirits will return

hope that helps...there's a book called hostage to the devil that was written by the Pope's excorsit..I heard ts pretty deep. Any more questions feel free to ask away

PS spirits can come out in various forms, most common are coughing, dry heaving
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Were they conventional Catholic exorcisms? Because, yes, people can even die in exorcism (a woman was drowned in her own living roon last year in NZ) but they are usually ad lib affairs.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Yeah, it's going to depend on what school is subscribed to. I figured nearly everyone did the MMPI (it has that nifty malingering scale) when possible, but you are probably right. It could be written many different ways.

I was taught psychometics almost 20 years ago, and that professor said Rorschach was a complete joke and Minnesota Multiphase was close behind. He worked with the categories set out in the DSM and clinical interviews.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I was taught psychometics almost 20 years ago, and that professor said Rorschach was a complete joke and Minnesota Multiphase was close behind. He worked with the categories set out in the DSM and clinical interviews.

Yeah, I've never had to take it, and I've seen a handful of shrinks in my life. So I should have known it was less common than I was thinking. OTOH, I wasn't being seen for anything touching psychosis.



I would think a deep family background is going to be important with the OP. If a person is brought up to believe certain religious things, that is definitely taken into consideration. Unless they see a very 'medically' type of shrink. They might just have pills pushed on them with hardly an interview.

That makes it nice to write, anyway ;)
 

mtrenteseau

Mild-mannered accountant by day...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
707
Reaction score
83
Location
Atlanta
Yeah, it's going to depend on what school is subscribed to. I figured nearly everyone did the MMPI (it has that nifty malingering scale) when possible, but you are probably right. It could be written many different ways.

My mother's dissertation was on whether the MMPI would show people with spinal cord injuries to be hypochondriacs. SCI can cause all sorts of bathroom issues, tingling or numbness in the extremities and other problems that increase the hypochondriasis score.

This means I've graded a bunch of these things. And yes, she was right.

If the patient has long periods of lucidity punctuated by psychotic episodes, then the MMPI would be good. If they're continually displaying inappropriate behavior, they probably wouldn't have the attention span necessary to complete it.
 

Wiskel

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
511
Reaction score
81
Location
High above the rooftops...swinging from web to web
As a consultant psychiatrist, in about 13 years of practising psychiatry I've never used the MMPI or Rorschach tests. Nor do I even have copies of them in my office. Nor (I think) do any of my 14 strong team (although if anyone did it would be our psychologist.....and in the interests of pedantry, a psychiatrist went to medical school, a psychologist has a psychology degree that grants the academic title of "Dr").

I'd split this into two parts.
1. Evidence
2. Instinct

Pretty much any questionnaire test will be "evidence" based. That means, for example, it's been given to a large test group of subjects and analysed for trends. These "evidence based" tests are easily broken. If you "calibrate" one on a hundred men, then administer it to a woman then you have no evidence base to say that a test designed for men will be any use at all for a woman. It might be, but then you're back to instinct and common sense, not evidence. You could warp this example even more by wondering if a personality test calibrated on english people would be of any use if administered in a poor part of Africa.

If anyone knows what the evidence base is for how a "demon" would answer when given the MMPI then they read far stranger journals than I (but please tell me how to subscribe, I'm sure they're good ones :)) I'd love to sit in on the session though.
"So, are you a demon?"
"No, honest, Gov."
"Any strong feelings about God?"
"Nice chap. I quite like him"
"So, you don't want to vomit at the sound of His name then?"
"Not at all."
"What does this ink blot look like to you?"
"A kitten"
"So not a bloody heart with a knife through it then?"
"No, really, I'm not a demon, but, er, could you move the holy water a bit further away please, this is a new shirt and I really don't want to get it wet.""



So, if I had any evidence based tests on me, I'd throw them away in this situation.

I think you're on instinct alone here. If your priest / doctor has any experience with mental illness they'd use it.....but here your question becomes too broad for an easy answer. You're basicallly asking "how do you diagnose mental illness". There are lots and they can be very different.

To give you a structure to start from. Think of things as being either "positive" symptoms or "negative" ones.

Positive symptoms are things that happen to people with mental illness that people who are well don't typically experience....like hallucinations, delusions etc.

Negative symptoms are abilities that everyone has that are impaired...like the inability to concentrate or think clearly.

Then you need to make a list of "positive" symptoms of possession, compare it to your list of symptoms of mental illness and cross out any symptoms that are on both lists....they can't help you tell the difference.

Your priest will be focusing on symptoms that are only on one of your lists. They're your genuinely helpful ways of telling one thing from another if you don't have actual experience or instinct to fall back on....so your priest will talk to the patient and focus on those.

Craig
 
Last edited:

mtrenteseau

Mild-mannered accountant by day...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
707
Reaction score
83
Location
Atlanta
If anyone knows what the evidence base is for how a "demon" would answer when given the MMPI then they read far stranger journals than I (but please tell me how to subscribe, I'm sure they're good ones :)) I'd love to sit in on the session though.

The Demonic Possession Scale focuses on questions like:

"I am troubled by attacks of nausea and vomiting"
"At times I feel like swearing"
"I have had very peculiar and strange experiences"
"My soul sometimes leaves my body"

And of course:

"Evil spirits possess me at times"

The question, of course, is whether a genuine demonic possession would answer more or less honestly than someone who was faking it. The Hypochondriasis scale could be used to see if they're in the habit of exaggerating health complaints (for some reason the MMPI has a fixation on bowel movements).