AW Social Dynamics

since I don't frequent that forum a whole lot, I can't say specifically, but I know it's been discussed before.

It could be that some of the people not getting many hits are new members who have only posted asking for help, often times over and over again on the same thing, only to disappear a short time later. It's beneficial to go around the board and take part in discussion, even offer crits of their own.

Hmm. Well when I hang out in QLH I'm more likely to crit if I know the genre reasonably well (though not always) and I think I can offer a useful crit.

And that's my main reason for not posting - I don't feel I have anything useful to add. It's not because anyone has bad internet breath or anything

Cella said:

It could be that some of the people not getting many hits are new members who have only posted asking for help, often times over and over again on the same thing, only to disappear a short time later. It's beneficial to go around the board and take part in discussion, even offer crits of their own.

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This.

A combination of randomness and the fact that not many people want to spend much time on a query that's truly hopeless (because there are really only so many tactful ways to say, "Go back to the drawing board").

A distinctive subject line helps.

Xvee said:

I haven't been here long and been hanging out mostly in Query Hell section.

I've noticed that some people get a lot of help and attention for their posts in query hell while others get little or no help. Some of the posts do not even rack up that many views.

Just curious to get your thoughts and theories on why that may be. What are the people getting lots of responses doing right, and what are the people getting little response doing (if anything) wrong?

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There can be a great many reasons for disparity in response - from the nearly random ones of timing of the original post and how often it lands on the top few updated threads to the subjective reasons including how popular the genre and subject matter are, to then very personal reasons.

First, an example of the luck factor - sometimes a thread just gets posted at a time when it gets lost in the shuffle, and isn't seen as often compared to another thread.

Second an example of the sort of subjective: If there are a lot more writers of certain genres, queries/excerpts of those genres have a larger pool of potential critiquers.

Third, some of the more personal reasons:

People who actively and constructively critique others' work often get more critique for their own work. In the alternative, someone dropping into QLH, posting a query, and not interacting in any other way, may see less response.

People who have more posts, and have been posting around the forums longer, may be better known and have already shown they want to be a part of the community instead of just driving by for some quick critique and then will disappear. And the more known someone is, the more potential critiquers may know a bit about the poster's personality and seriousness about writing, which can also encourage more critique. A potential critiquer may skip over a whole lot of posts and just critique one for someone they've interacted with positively in another thread.

And sometimes some posts just encourage more critique because they have easily identifiable issues, or they are nearly there, etc... On the other hand, too long posts, posts with a lot of basic issues or a lot of issues that are hard to identify and suggest corrections for, etc., all may seem like too much work. And when a post seems to come from someone who didn't bother reading any of the readily available reference threads, that may also cause difference in response rates.

And on the very personal front, sometimes someone demonstrates they are not ready/not receptive to critigue - that person will likely see less critique on later posts.

And these are just some of the reasons. There are loads of others. Probably too many to list.

So, sometimes it's just luck and timing, and sometimes there are other things going on.

But for anyone who isn't getting as much critique as other similarly timed and styled posts, it's worth asking him/herself if they are making themself a part of the community and demonstrating a willingness to critigue/assist/interact positively with others, in addition to asking for critique.

~suki

suki said:

And on the very personal front, sometimes someone demonstrates they are not ready/not receptive to critigue - that person will likely see less critique on later posts.

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This. But more importantly, the flip. Some people are just so nice and so receptive you go out of your way to help. They have these shiny, wonderful attitudes about the process. And that's not so easy to possess in QLH. You want to help them.

Xvee said:

Just curious to get your thoughts and theories on why that may be. What are the people getting lots of responses doing right, and what are the people getting little response doing (if anything) wrong?

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It's a good question. I think there is no one-size-fits-all answer, though.

What Cella said, for starters.

I don't often crit on the boards, but I still read a lot of the QLH posts just because I'm curious about what others are trying to sell at any given moment. But although chances are I won't make any comments publicly, I still crit the piece mentally. Here's what I look at:

- Do I know the poster? Are they active in the AW community?

- Are they new and--possibly--just here for crits and not interaction?

- What genre are they writing?

- How marketable does the story sound?

- Is it filled with punctuation and spelling errors? (That's a deal-breaker for me. It means they're too sloppy for me to waste my time on, and their manuscript isn't going to be any better.)

- Do I like it?

Sometimes it's obvious what they've written is irredeemable. Other times it's obviously good enough that they don't need my help or I have nothing useful to say because someone else has already said it--and better.

Beyond that...

It's no secret that we're weighted more heavily towards SFF here in terms of sheer numbers, so those queries seem to get more commentary. I think, too, some posters are uncomfortable critting outside of their preferred genre.

Really, to anyone looking for critiques, the best thing you can do is be a part of the community. Interact, critique others, participate. I've done several crits off the boards recently for people I know and like--people who are active members of this community.

yeah, timing is one I'd forgotten about. I've posted things at various times, and even though this board has people from all timezones in it, I've found that my posts in the morning seem to have gotten more attention.

Twizzle said:

This. But more importantly, the flip. Some people are just so nice and so receptive you go out of your way to help. They have these shiny, wonderful attitudes about the process. And that's not so easy to possess in QLH. You want to help them.

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Yes, this, too. Good reminder.

And sometimes it's also just the mood of the critiquers. I tend to go into SYW these days less and less. Sometimes I'm drawn in for one specific post, and end up looking at ithers, too. Sometimes I have some time and feel like paying it forward, and so I crit a bunch. But when you're clicking through threads, deciding what to crit, there is choice. And sometimes it's just the fickle vagaries or clicking through.

~suki

I stopped critting in QLH because I got tired of defending what I suggest. It's not always the OP ....Actually, it's rarely the OP. It's other posters.

I do query letters privately if anyone wants help. I'm damn good at it.

I have done a few...but since I'm still in the learning process I don't feel I have the brains to offer towards such an important task. The ones that help are very good at what they do and point out some really great information. I don't read many of them any more as time does not allow me to. I tend to stick to the area that I love reading....the horror areas of the works, as I can tell if I really like something or not.

Being a member of the AW is more then just signing up and 'getting' help. It is a clutch of folks with such a vast amount to offer and if they feel as though someone is only posting to be on the 'getting' side of the coin, then I can understand why they pull back from helping. (Have seen way too much of the 'drive bys.)

Again, This is only my opinion.

I don't crit in QLH very often. When I do, who I crit is based on a) do I have something constructive to say? and b) are they an active forum member who I know is serious about what they're doing and likely to appreciate of my time?

Genre definitely makes a difference too. You don't want me critting your woman's fiction query. Unless you want advised to add magic and explosions to make it more interesting.

I'm crap at query letters. Now and then I'll have a stab at it. But way too many times I've seen letters that reflect a novel that is nowhere ready for querying. Critiquers have gently suggested to these writers that they need to take their time. Yet, a few hours later, they're back with another version of a letter which still shows flaws in the novel.

I get tired of seeing advice being ignored or writers getting defensive. I also get tired of the drive-by posters who see AW SYW as nothing more than a free critique service and offer nothing or very little in return, in terms of becoming more involved in the AW community.

Hence, I tend to stay away from QLH. It's just not worth sending my blood pressure into the stratosphere any more.

The only time I provide crit is when I have something to add which I think will be helpful, and which hasn't already been stated. You could be my online best friend but if someone has already said what I would have said, I'm not going to chime in just to repeat them.

As for QLH, I've had precious little luck with my own queries and therefore don't have a lot of confidence that I'd know what I'm talking about when critiquing someone else's. It's not a matter of being selfish; it's just that I'd be the blind leading the blind.

Just one person responded to my last QLH query up for critique, but she made a good point that made the query stronger.

It's not quantity of replies, but the quality.

I check it out from time to time. A couple of things stop me from reading - overlong posts or posts that claim up front to be pretty rough. I prefer reading something the writer has already taken a bit of time with before putting out there for everyone else to read.

I admit I don't critique all that much. A couple of reasons for that. One is that I'd only be repeating what other critiquers have said and the other is that there's so much to deal with I just don't know where to start and give up. Fortunately posters are lucky as there are a number of people willing to put in a fair amount of their time to give a line-by-line critique. But they can only do so much.

I've not posted or critted in a long time. Part of it is time, but part of it is that I can only provide input on my taste of what I THINK will get an agent's attention; I have no experience (I've never even been asked for a partial, but I only queried about 6 agents before it was clear that the novel had problems that couldn't be solved by a query letter).

I'm somewhat the opposite of others in this thread. I tend to give more in-depth crits to newbies who might not yet have a network of critters and betas established. I know certain people here are going to get oodles of input and are further along than I am in their skills. Perhaps that's not helpful, but that's what I find myself doing.

I tend to stay away from QLH threads from someone with a very low post count. I don't think it's fair to sign up to a community only to glom some free help.

My own ethic re communities is: Participate and give some assistance yourself before asking for assistance. But, hey, I'm a hardass.

I definitely think that someone whose been around a bit on the boards gets a preference because, like its been said, you're part of the community and are truly looking for some feedback. Writing is a bitch,, not cliche' seriously and its hard to critique newbies just for the sake of a critique.

Also, it should be noted that there are some very talented people on these boards, and if you're lucky enough to get a look from some of them, it's a pretty big fucking deal... so a little work and commitment can go a long way...

Don Allen said:

I definitely think that someone whose been around a bit on the boards gets a preference because, like its been said, you're part of the community and are truly looking for some feedback. Writing is a bitch,, not cliche' seriously and its hard to critique newbies just for the sake of a critique.

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I don't know, Don. I've been here around for a bit and take writing seriously, yet had only one person respond to the last query I posted for crit. But as I said, I am fine with that.

When I have time to crit, I'll look first for what sounds interesting by subject line, and a close second at threads that don't have much response. If something that sounds interesting already has several responses, I'll skip it. But sometimes I read and don't crit because the feedback required is more than I have time to give. When I was able to crit more regularly, I would soon get tired of people with single or double-digit posting numbers seeking query advice and would start to skip those (at times they dominate). Also, I'm not huge on fantasy so those tend to lose me pretty quickly.

Reasons, as you've seen, vary by person, but there are some common themes.

I have to say, after today, I'm done with SYW.

Unless it's an AW member I actually know can accept criticism in the spirit in which it's intended.

I don't say much in QLH because I'm horrible at writing queries. I read them. I don't think I have any advice to add in that forum...I'm sadly lacking.

As for the rest of SYW...I used to crit a lot more. I almost never do, now...just because I'm so busy and quite often the posts are just too long. I'd love to see one or two page posts...something I can whip in, crit and leave. But when the posts are 2-3 K words...I just don't have the time. I miss critting sometimes, though...and go back every now and again.

I visit QLH on a weekly basis and critique them when I can and have a chunk of time. Sometimes I'll do one, then want to do another right away, sometimes not.

More often than not, I see a member with very few post counts. Sometimes I do those, sometimes not for the same reasons everyone has already stated: Many of these are drive-bys, simply looking for a critique service, then never bothering to come back. That irritates me, especially when I crit the multiple versions as the query progresses.

I immediately lose interest when my advice is ignored. If spend a half hour critiquing someone's query with what I feel is sound advice, then I read the newest version and everything I said was disregarded, I don't post again and will usually not post when that member reposts with something else later.

AW is a give-and-take community. If you get help, you should give help, even if you don't feel you are experienced enough to give sound advice. You can still read the query and point out one thing that you think doesn't work. It could be something everyone missed. But don't post with "Looks good to me!" Because it probably isn't.