I can haz soul selling?

KTC · May 25, 2010

What lengths do you go to to guarantee an acceptance?

If you have feedback from an agent or publisher that suggests a rewrite of, say, the first chapter, might garner an acceptance...do you do it?

How shaky is the ground of your resolve? Do you keep hunting or do you rewrite? At what point do you listen to yourself? At what point do you listen to the advice?

Where is the soul-selling line? Do you cross it?

Devil Ledbetter · May 25, 2010

A "suggested" rewrite that "might" garner acceptance would not be enough for me to sell my soul. I'd only sell it for a guarantee.

Of course, I've never even come close enough to get a suggestion of a might, so I'm speaking from pure speculation and probably giving myself more credit than I deserve.

scarletpeaches · May 25, 2010

I'm in the middle of this very situation.

I got a R&R from an editor who said if I rewrote, it wouldn't guarantee an acceptance, but she'd be more than happy to look at it, and I get to email her directly instead of going through the normal submissions procedure.

I still have the 'old' version of the book on my laptop. And to be honest, I like the new one better so even if she says no, I'll run with the edited book.

If I disagreed with her suggestions I'd take the book elsewhere, but she has a point, so...I'll rewrite.

I suppose it'd be harder to decide if your gut told you, "No, it's okay as it is," but in my case it doesn't feel like soul-selling. It feels like I'm making it a better book.

KTC · May 25, 2010

Devil Ledbetter said:
A "suggested" rewrite that "might" garner acceptance would not be enough for me to sell my soul. I'd only sell it for a guarantee.

Of course, I've never even come close enough to get a suggestion of a might, so I'm speaking from pure speculation and probably giving myself more credit than I deserve.

This is what I was thinking...why go through with this for a maybe when I think it works the way it is. Opinions are like assholes...everybody has one. What if everybody suggested changes and I raced around trying to please them all? Would I be selling myself short?

scarletpeaches said:
I'm in the middle of this very situation.

I got a R&R from an editor who said if I rewrote, it wouldn't guarantee an acceptance, but she'd be more than happy to look at it, and I get to email her directly instead of going through the normal submissions procedure.

I still have the 'old' version of the book on my laptop. And to be honest, I like the new one better so even if she says no, I'll run with the edited book.

If I disagreed with her suggestions I'd take the book elsewhere, but she has a point, so...I'll rewrite.

I suppose it'd be harder to decide if your gut told you, "No, it's okay as it is," but in my case it doesn't feel like soul-selling. It feels like I'm making it a better book.

And...there is that niggling feeling...there is a point to the criticism. Man...I have been wavering on everything lately. I'm thinking this may not be soul selling, too...maybe there is a point and maybe I should try the rework.

Man. It sure helps to have feedback from people who understand.

scarletpeaches · May 25, 2010

Hell, I say rewrite. It's not like you'd be deleting the earlier version is it?

NeuroFizz · May 25, 2010

Sorry, Kev (I'm taking a strict interpretation of your words), but paying attention to suggestions from professionals in the field, and making changes in line with those suggestions, is hardly soul-selling. I have never make a blanket set of changes from the suggestions of editors and agents, but I have made many of the suggested changes because each and every one I acted upon improved the manuscript or improved the story.

If anyone feels their words are so golden, and making suggested changes in response to constructive criticism is a surrender, perhaps PublishAmerica is a good outlet for those prized, unmodifiable words. They will leave them alone.

KTC · May 25, 2010

scarletpeaches said:
Hell, I say rewrite. It's not like you'd be deleting the earlier version is it?

That's true. I can keep it and just see what happens. It was written in 2003...maybe it'll come out better if I gave it a new stab.

Calla Lily · May 25, 2010

I'm practical. "Selling my soul" would be applicable if I was a tortured artist whose golden vision hung on my every word.

Screw that. I want to be on a bookshelf in B&N.

So, when my editor asked, I cut 9975 words from my mystery, rewrote the ending 3 times, changed a copyrighted name, and added in a few scenes that she said made things clearer. She knows what will sell. I saved the cut words in case I want to use them somewhere else.

I'll be on a bookshelf in B&N in February. WIN.

My soul's in God's possession. My books are a negotiable commodity.

/soapbox

Wayne K · May 25, 2010

I'd kill the lot of ya to be published, but at rewrites I draw the line

A man has to have standards

inkspatters · May 25, 2010

Yeah, I've done it. I've edited my entire book based on feedback from an agent that wasn't a guaranteed acceptance. I only did it because the suggestions resonated with me. I've chucked out other revise and resubmits and just kept hunting, but if there's a point to the criticism and you're going to wind up with stronger work regardless, why not?

KTC · May 25, 2010

NeuroFizz said:
Sorry, Kev (I'm taking a strict interpretation of your words), but paying attention to suggestions from professionals in the field, and making changes in line with those suggestions, is hardly soul-selling. I have never make a blanket set of changes from the suggestions of editors and agents, but I have made many of the suggested changes because each and every one I acted upon improved the manuscript or improved the story.

If anyone feels their words are so golden, and making suggested changes in response to constructive criticism is a surrender, perhaps PublishAmerica is a good outlet for those prized, unmodifiable words. They will leave them alone.

That's the slap I needed. (-: I don't know what it is, Rich...I usually feel so open to criticism...but this one manuscript has been the one for me. The one I believe in. I certainly don't want to go waltzing over to PA with my 'golden' attitude. I want to make it better...I'm just not entirely sure this would. But I'm not adverse to trying. Maybe soul-selling wasn't exactly the term I was looking for...it's just that it feels like I'm compromising myself a bit to just rewrite in the hopes of getting a contract. That feels cheap to me. But, hey...attempting the rewrite is free, right. I may as well play.

nitaworm · May 25, 2010

We authors have to remember if we want to sell a book, we have to do what we need to do to sell it. So if one agent wants more romance - tweak a version and add that in, if another wants more gore - tweak it and add it in. Take off the parental hat and put on your sell it hat if you want to get it sold. Or...stop and figure out what you truly want to do with your work.

So, in a word, if selling my work for $$ upfront meant changing it, heck I'd change it.

KTC · May 25, 2010

PS...I'm all for rewrites and rounds and rounds of edits. My wavering is on changing the first chapter of the story. But like I said...I'm going to give it a go. There's nothing to lose.

Cranky · May 25, 2010

Kev, if the suggested changes make sense to you, I'd try it. If you don't like the end results, there's no law which states you must let them have it, after all. And keep the original, just in case.

Yes, we generally must make editiorial changes if we want to ultimately be published. But if you think it's not doing anything to improve the story --or in fact, makes it worse-- then don't do it.

ChaosTitan · May 25, 2010

KTC said:
PS...I'm all for rewrites and rounds and rounds of edits. My wavering is on changing the first chapter of the story. But like I said...I'm going to give it a go. There's nothing to lose.

There is absolutely nothing to lose. And the great thing about these newfangled computers is you can save the old first chapter in case you hate the rewrite. Nothing is set in stone.

I sent a book I wrote four years ago to my agent. I loved that first chapter. My betas had loved it. The first five pages helped place second in a query contest a few years back. I thought it was a win.

My agent wanted a new first chapter, and to make the old first chapter chapter two. So I wrote it. And he sold it. Win!

Words are our tools. And sometimes if we've been with a manuscript for too long, we don't always recognize the best way to arrange our words in order to best tell the story.

Cathy C · May 25, 2010

I cut off my first book at chapter 7 (the ending of a short story) and completely re-wrote the book THREE times before it was accepted. Plot, characters and ending. Chop off. Discard. Rewrite. But every single rewrite made it stronger. Made it more saleable.

My soul was cheap and it's been bought many times since--every single book requires revisions and nearly every author I meet who's published more than one will shrug at some horrible defect they absolutely KNOW exists in a manuscript with a passing comment of, "Eh. It'll get fixed in edits."

And it will. Chapters come, chapters go. Characters are renamed and given new pasts. All without the reader ever knowing.

Except . . . occasionally, they find out. Our third book, Captive Moon, had at the back the first chapter of book four, Howling Moon. Except that it wound up NOT being the first chapter of book four. It was scrapped in edits, and chapter two became the new chapter one. Only readers of book three will ever know our original vision for the fourth book---one that readers who never bought that book will never know.

KTC · May 25, 2010

Thanks all.

This prima donna usually doesn't care about his words. Great advice here. Thank you all.

CaroGirl · May 25, 2010

I'm all for reworking the chapter to see if you like it better. Professional advice is often worth its weight in gold. (Speaking as someone who has both taken and ignored professional advice.)

MGraybosch · May 25, 2010

I'm willing to be reasonable in order to get published. If I make it big, I can always release a "20th Anniversary Author's Preferred Edition". It worked for Raymond Feist's Magician, after all.

Monkey · May 25, 2010

When I write, it's just me and the computer. Pure expression. That's when I feel like writing is an art, that's my playtime.

Selling the stuff is an entirely different thing. It's not about me anymore; it's not just me and my computer. I figure if I want to sell my stories, I need to do whatever it takes to sell them. Playtime's over.

Not that that's a bad thing. A time for work, a time for play, and all that.

san_remo_ave · May 25, 2010

KTC said:
PS...I'm all for rewrites and rounds and rounds of edits. My wavering is on changing the first chapter of the story. But like I said...I'm going to give it a go. There's nothing to lose.

Exactly! Glad to hear you'll give it a try.

I have a ms on submission now and a big editor recently asked for a R&R --specifically asking for cuts to the first chapter, a major overhaul of the ending and to toss in a few specific scenes of amore. Without adding to the overall word count (which meant additional cuts *somewhere*) and specifically requested without sacrificing any character development.

I was dubious, but made all of the requested changes, because I decided it was good practice and I could always return it to original if they decided to pass on the revisions.

With the changes, I find the first chapter so much stronger that I'm keeping it regardless. The last chapter is a little formulaic now, but since it's under review by HQN it's really not surprising. If they pass, I'm going back to original ending but keeping the new beginning, so worthwhile exercise in the end. (I'm still waiting to hear their decision)

Phaeal · May 25, 2010

I'm with the "try a rewrite and see if you like it" camp. If you don't, you haven't lost anything.

Of course, changing a first chapter may require further changes, major and subtle. For some books, it could require a full rewrite. If you can really change just a few pages and get away with it, you're golden.

Me, I've gotten a bunch of form rejections, applied Piscean psychic power to them, and rewritten whole books.

RemusShepherd · May 25, 2010

KTC said:
What lengths do you go to to guarantee an acceptance?

If you have feedback from an agent or publisher that suggests a rewrite of, say, the first chapter, might garner an acceptance...do you do it?

Where is the soul-selling line? Do you cross it?

I'll do anything I can do.

A few years back, when I was writing short stories, I got a conditional offer from a major SFF magazine. I had sent them a story about a robot who was malfunctioning, and his malfunctions caused him to see ghosts.

The editor said that she liked the story but wanted it to be more cross-genre, and I should highlight the ghosts and downplay the robot bits. She wanted a ghost story with robots. I was telling a robot story.

I tried. I rewrote it once, handed it to her, and she asked me to try again. I rewrote a second time. Then I looked at the story and hated it. It was not what I wanted to write, and it made no goddamned sense. So I told the editor I just couldn't do what she was asking, and thanked her for the opportunity.

After that, I didn't submit another story for five years. I was that soured on the process. Thank ghod I at least continued to write.

If it had happened today, I would have done much the same thing, except that after seeing that the story could not be forced into the mould she wanted I would have started a new story that contained what she wanted. And then, whether it was accepted or rejected, I wouldn't have given up on everybody just because of one nutty editor.

So, to answer your question: I'd make a good faith effort, and I'd go as far as groveling and bending over backwards...but soul-selling? Nope, can't go that far.

Hmmn, this reminds me that I still haven't done anything with that robot story...

Shadow_Ferret · May 25, 2010

That's not soul-selling in my mind. That's doing what's necessary to garner a sale. Heck, not only did I make my Chapter 1 a Chapter 2, I've rewritten my first chapter over half a dozen times, all on my own initiative. I'd love if an agent expressed desire and asked for changes to improve my story.

At this point, for me, even just a maybe would be wonderful.

jennontheisland · May 25, 2010

Well, at least you didn't call it your kid.

I can haz soul selling?

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