Is it really necessary...this query thing?

RainBrain · Aug 26, 2005

based on the accounts i've read in "rejection" section of this board these agents tend to think they're on some high and mighty type nonsense and it really sickens me.

first of all, i do love writing and my manuscript isn't a novel like that of most first timers. i happen to believe and know that I write pretty good. i have been told this a number of times by my college professors.

the fact is, i really do want my book published. but i'm not looking forward to the publishing because of the advance. i can be given an advance of $500 and i wouldn't care. i know the book will sell gloriously once a publisher shows interest in it. it just will. any money i expect to make will be from royalties which i have absolutely no problem with.

a small book between 40,000 to 50000 words gives a writer like myself several advantages one of which includes being able to re-read it in a very short amount of time and making necessary changes as many times as one finds necessary. so being as i'm not in a hurry, i spend time going over my manuscript countless times making sure everything is up to par and i have to admit, i'm quite astonished at my own abilities.

after reading all the stuff in the rejection part of this board, i'm seriously considering not sending a damn thing to agents anymore. really, if i'm going to be rejected i prefer it from a publisher. my writing is good. a manuscript like mine cant do nothing but get better if re-read as many times as I did mine and the changes i made.

the basic question is, i do know agents are important...........to some people, but are they really that important?

StoryG27 · Aug 26, 2005

I don't know a lot about the non-fiction market, but Cathy posted a little quiz on another thread, and I thought it might help you see if you want to deal with publishers on your own, or with a knowledgable agent on your side.

Also, yes, we writers gripe about being rejected, but MOST agents are just doing their business, not insulting writers for fun, and most don't act high and mighty. Finding the right agent is where research comes into play.

Cathy C said:
Here's a little quiz for you to see if you feel confident to deal with the publisher alone:

1. Do you know what "Delivery and acceptance" of the manuscript means and what time period is best for your book?

2. Do you know which subsidiary rights are most advantageous to keep and which to leave with the publisher?

3. Do you think mandated publication is a good idea?

4. Do you know the length of time that is common for the publisher you're querying to hold "reserves on returns?" Do you know how to change it?

5. Can you negotiate your own option clause so it benefits you more than the publisher?

If you aren't comfortable with all of these aspects of a publishing contract (or don't know what the heck I'm talking about!) then you need an agent.

stormie · Aug 26, 2005

Rain,

It's good you think highly of your work. But in your title you ask about a query, then in your message, you ask about if agents are necessary.

First of all, to get your book (nonfiction, 50,000 words) out there, you do have to perfect a query letter, whether to agents or book editors. You will also need an outline. They don't want the completed mss. at first.

Now, if you need an agent--that's up to you. You can get hold of the 2006 Writer's Market and look up publishers who publish your type of work. See what they want, do want, etc. You can also look up agents. As Storygirl said, Cathy had a very good list for seeing if you need an agent.

Agents aren't high and mighty. Yes, you get a few who might think they're God's gift to humanity, but that goes even with writers who think they're also God's gift to readers. Agents are there to help. Andy Zack on the Ask the Agent board here, is very nice and helpful.

Torin · Aug 26, 2005

RainBrain said:
based on the accounts i've read in "rejection" section of this board these agents tend to think they're on some high and mighty type nonsense and it really sickens me.

first of all, i do love writing and my manuscript isn't a novel like that of most first timers. i happen to believe and know that I write pretty good. i have been told this a number of times by my college professors.
-snip-

And perhaps you even write well, although this post is likely not an example of your grasp of grammar and punctuation. Many people, myself included, tend to write more informally in emails and message boards. Good luck with your book. An agent may not be necessary for a non-fiction book, but there are many publishers who prefer agented submissions. You'll have to focus on those who accept unagented work, but if you do your homework and find out who publishes similar titles, you may very well succeed.

Cheers,

RainBrain · Aug 26, 2005

oh by the way, i didn't mean the agents on this board. i meant outside agents in general. well, most of them.

as for my grammar. i dont put in work into something that doesn't need it. as long as i get my point across, i'm satisfied.

however, on a manuscript which is a potential money maker, its a completely different story

AncientEagle · Aug 26, 2005

Maybe it's just me, but I could swear there's some leg pulling going on here. I sure do hope so.

RainBrain · Aug 26, 2005

AncientEagle said:
Maybe it's just me, but I could swear there's some leg pulling going on here. I sure do hope so.

that wouldn't be accurate. what you're reading is the real deal, my friend.

triceretops · Aug 26, 2005

Agents actually only got in the way when it came to selling my non-fiction books. By that I mean I wasted my time contacting them. You can sell non-fiction (proposals only) by yourself to many, many publishing houses without an agent, and the script doesn't have to be finished for that to happen. But I would suggest a complete chapter by chapter outline on the book, plus your platform, credits, target markets, and a good solid three samp chapters.

Fiction is a different story. But, alas, out of 25 submissions--guess who requested full and partial manuscripts, with polite courtesy, I might add?

4 count em, 4 publishing houses!

Last non-fiction book--16 agent rejections. 5 university requests.

See the trend here. There is currently a serious glut in the agencies right now. That's my opinion, of course, but I'm getting rather fed up with agents who are passing entirely on queries, whereas publishers are eating them up.

Triceratops

AncientEagle · Aug 27, 2005

RainBrain said:
that wouldn't be accurate. what you're reading is the real deal, my friend.

Oh my.

OneTeam OneDream · Aug 27, 2005

RainBrain said:
based on the accounts i've read in "rejection" section of this board these agents tend to think they're on some high and mighty type nonsense and it really sickens me.

Me too, but that's part of the game.

first of all, i do love writing and my manuscript isn't a novel like that of most first timers.
Yes it is.

i happen to believe and know that I write pretty good. i have been told this a number of times by my college professors.

We have all been told we are good. Until we are told that by someone buying our books off of the shelves, we are the same as any other "unpublished"

the fact is, i really do want my book published.

So do we all.

but i'm not looking forward to the publishing because of the advance. i can be given an advance of $500 and i wouldn't care.

Name me someone who is doing this for the money, and I'll show you someone who probably isn't successful. Your viewpoint is nothing new.

i know the book will sell gloriously once a publisher shows interest in it.

But there is always the chance that it won't. Probably a good chance that it won't, but obviously that isn't discouraging you, and that is a good sign.

it just will.

Of course it will.

any money i expect to make will be from royalties which i have absolutely no problem with.

That's good, I really wouldn't expect you to turn down royalty monies.

a small book between 40,000 to 50000 words gives a writer like myself several advantages one of which includes being able to re-read it in a very short amount of time and making necessary changes as many times as one finds necessary.

The biggest advantage you can have is writing a good to great book. If you can write a great book, none of the other stuff matters.

so being as i'm not in a hurry, i spend time going over my manuscript countless times making sure everything is up to par and i have to admit, i'm quite astonished at my own abilities.

You should be able to do these well, or else you'll be submitting stuff to agents/pubs that screams AMATUER HOUR!

after reading all the stuff in the rejection part of this board, i'm seriously considering not sending a damn thing to agents anymore.

That's your perogative, but don't expect to get into any of the "Big" houses.

really, if i'm going to be rejected i prefer it from a publisher.

Rejection sucks no matter who it is from.

my writing is good.

What a coincidence, mine too!.....and everyone elses here. And a lot of other people too!

a manuscript like mine cant do nothing but get better if re-read as many times as I did mine and the changes i made.

see above

the basic question is, i do know agents are important...........to some people, but are they really that important?

If you want to work up the ladder, nah they aren't important. However, if this is the greatest book ever written, and you expect nothing but NY times bestseller list, then yeah you should probably get the agent first.

Just my two cents.

Chris

LloydBrown · Aug 27, 2005

I'm starting to agree with you, Triceratops.

With my current NF title, I've interested 0 agents. I think it has limited marketability, and the "limited" part is what's turning off the agents. A publisher might look at 30,000-50,000 sales and be content. If an agent sees a ceiling of 50,000, he's probably going to pass.

A few years ago, before I really had a clue what I was doing, I sent out a shotgun blast query for a NF title to 10 publishers--four replied with interest! Market research (done after the query, if that doesn't tell you how bad I was at the time) indicated that the book wasn't viable, but I still had that interest at that stage.

I think my next round of proposals will go straight to the publishers. I'll get an agent afterward.

triceretops · Aug 27, 2005

Hi, Loyd. Yeah, it's just that when I took the books directly to the source (small and medium presses) I got instant results and instant contracts, one right after another. Non-fiction is SO MUCH easier to sell than a novel, it just makes sense to investigate all those leads and send them out in mass. I had several agents per book offer contracts, so I pitted them against each other, by telling them what advance they had to beat. So I infact held my own dumb little bidding war. Hey it worked, I guess. I earned out on both books. However, if you hit with a big house, then you can solicite an agent at that point to take you on. They can get much better advances and royalties for you, make no mistake about that.

I happened to goof with the "net" and "gross" differences on my royalties. That was probably the worst mistake I made.

Tri

RainBrain · Aug 28, 2005

triceretops said:
Hi, Loyd. Yeah, it's just that when I took the books directly to the source (small and medium presses) I got instant results and instant contracts, one right after another. Non-fiction is SO MUCH easier to sell than a novel, it just makes sense to investigate all those leads and send them out in mass. I had several agents per book offer contracts, so I pitted them against each other, by telling them what advance they had to beat. So I infact held my own dumb little bidding war. Hey it worked, I guess. I earned out on both books. However, if you hit with a big house, then you can solicite an agent at that point to take you on. They can get much better advances and royalties for you, make no mistake about that.

I happened to goof with the "net" and "gross" differences on my royalties. That was probably the worst mistake I made.

Tri

this is what i'm actually thinking. if one gets a deal with the publisher, then, an agent can come into place.

i started off wanting to write a novel and it wasn't until i had coughed up about 25000 words that i realize that wasn't my forte. and besides, there are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many novelists out there.

i started my nonfiction and i have no problem finding things to write about. it just comes easily.

about that writer's market magazine. i suppose the local library should have one, right? lol. yeah, i know, i'm being cheap but ya cant blame me for trying to save a lil.

Carole · Aug 28, 2005

RainBrain said:
this is what i'm actually thinking. if one gets a deal with the publisher, then, an agent can come into place.

I know of at least two writers who have the publisher side almost wrapped up and are STILL having a devil of a time finding an agent. Just a thought.

christa · Aug 28, 2005

AncientEagle said:
Maybe it's just me, but I could swear there's some leg pulling going on here. I sure do hope so.

ditto Ancient Eagle. Bitten twice--shy thrice.

by the way Rain--how is your healing coming along (from that near fatal accident)?

Why don't you post us a copy of your query to your proposal, perhaps we could better comment on if it would be rejected more easily by an agent or by a publisher.

RainBrain · Aug 28, 2005

christa said:
ditto Ancient Eagle. Bitten twice--shy thrice.

by the way Rain--how is your healing coming along (from that near fatal accident)?

Why don't you post us a copy of your query to your proposal, perhaps we could better comment on if it would be rejected more easily by an agent or by a publisher.

the accident was a blessing in the sky. it gave me more things to write about. but i do have about three devilish scars on my face and a lockjaw.

i'ma think about posting my query. i haven't revised it yet because based on what you said a while ago, i decided to finish editing my manuscript before concentrating on the query. probably later on today or tomorrow morning i'll post it

RainBrain · Aug 28, 2005

Carole said:
I know of at least two writers who have the publisher side almost wrapped up and are STILL having a devil of a time finding an agent. Just a thought.

like i said, getting a publisher interested is all its about. i could care less about the advance. if after getting the publisher i have a problem finding an agent, no biggie. i'll just abort the search.

Sassenach · Aug 28, 2005

RainBrain said:
the accident was a blessing in the sky. it gave me more things to write about. but i do have about three devilish scars on my face and a lockjaw.

Word on whomever suggested 'leg-pulling.' You have 'a lockjaw'??

Carole · Aug 28, 2005

RainBrain said:
like i said, getting a publisher interested is all its about. i could care less about the advance. if after getting the publisher i have a problem finding an agent, no biggie. i'll just abort the search.

Well, I only mentioned this because of Cathy C's questionnaire about whether or not a writer needs an agent. If you can answer those questions in a way that makes you believe you wouldn't need an agent, then go for it I guess.

stormie · Aug 28, 2005

RainBrain said:
...about that writer's market magazine. i suppose the local library should have one, right? lol. yeah, i know, i'm being cheap but ya cant blame me for trying to save a lil.

"That writer's market magazine" isn't a magazine. It's a rather large book called 2006 Writer's Market. After reading your posts, I really think you'd get a lot out of it. Or maybe not.

RainBrain · Aug 28, 2005

stormie said:
"That writer's market magazine" isn't a magazine. It's a rather large book called 2006 Writer's Market. After reading your posts, I really think you'd get a lot out of it. Or maybe not.

too bad u didn't answer the question. library?

RainBrain · Aug 28, 2005

triceretops said:
Non-fiction is SO MUCH easier to sell than a novel, it just makes sense to investigate all those leads and send them out in mass.
Tri

i missed this part when i first read your post but i have to admit, this is the truth people dont wanna talk about.

i didn't need a book or something major to tell me non-fictions will be much more easier to sell. just looking at the gizillion amount of great aspiring novelists out there alone tells a story.

so what was your non-fiction book(s) about?

triceretops · Aug 28, 2005

I used to hold the most massive garage sales in the 80's. It occured to me that I was paying my rent at times, so I decided to write a book that was for the seller and the buyer. There were no books on the subject, just articles. So I wrote about liquidations, indoor/outdoor swap meets, tag sales, yard sales, moving sales, auctions and all that. It became Garage Mania. The other was called Auto Repair Shams and Scams (with Ralph Nader) how to avoid being ripped off by a mechanic.

Tri

RainBrain · Aug 28, 2005

triceretops said:
I used to hold the most massive garage sales in the 80's. It occured to me that I was paying my rent at times, so I decided to write a book that was for the seller and the buyer. There were no books on the subject, just articles. So I wrote about liquidations, indoor/outdoor swap meets, tag sales, yard sales, moving sales, auctions and all that. It became Garage Mania. The other was called Auto Repair Shams and Scams (with Ralph Nader) how to avoid being ripped off by a mechanic.

Tri

nice. i'm working on something sorta similar in the sense that there aren't enough about it in the market as of now.

RainBrain · Aug 28, 2005

Sassenach said:
Word on whomever suggested 'leg-pulling.' You have 'a lockjaw'??

yes a lockjaw and i tell you, its not fun living with that. i cant open my mouth wide enough to eat my favorite food.

it sucks just having liability insurance on a car. got no one to sue. i'm submerged in bills. but hey, more to write about.

Is it really necessary...this query thing?

RainBrain

StoryG27

Miss Behave

stormie

storm central

Torin

Wandering vaguely

RainBrain

AncientEagle

Old kid, no need to be gentle.

RainBrain

triceretops

AncientEagle

Old kid, no need to be gentle.

OneTeam OneDream

Been a long time...

LloydBrown

triceretops

RainBrain

Carole

How 'bout some ether?

christa

talk to the dog

RainBrain

RainBrain

Sassenach

5 W's & an H

Carole

How 'bout some ether?

stormie

storm central

RainBrain

RainBrain

triceretops

RainBrain

RainBrain