Political Correctness

Too PC? Seriously?

I'm as un-politically correct as can be and even I sometimes cringe a bit at some of the conversations here.

Edited to add: Beware! My anti-virus blocked a threat from that link.

I suspect some people mistake good taste and common courtesy for political correctness.

They obviously haven't read the posts I make when I'm having my little moments...

Actually most of my posts....


And they've definitely never been in PC&E!

PC - no. Allows personal attacks, trolling or flaming - no. There's plenty of room in between.

Maybe it was a person who got banned for.....um, let's see. How shall I put this in a pc way? Being a bigot? Oh wait, that's not right. Um...oh....being a PITA? Oh, no I probably can't say that...

I suspect someone got a slap on the wrist for thinking they can say what they like no matter how offensive it is to the people they're talking to.

That's not being PC - that's manners.

I would be more worried about what the bulk of AW members think than some single person on some other forum. I am biassed but I think if the PC was killing the place it would be so crowded in here. Whereas I stopped going to several forums where foul-mouthed attacks were considered 'free speech'.

Have you read the threads at Writers.net? They are almost all train wrecks with the veterans almost always piling up on some newbie. There is no moderation, and people say some of the most vitriolic stuff. I will say that once in a while some good advice is given there, but it gets quickly buried beneath other posters who just seem to revel in putting others down. There are especially one or two members who overpower most every thread to make sure they are heard. It is a pity because the site began as quite a lovely community, and there are some posters there who sincerely want to help others.

Basically what that poster is referring to is the fact that here people want reasoned debate and no personal attacks. AW does not put up with nasty attitudes that bring down the level of conversation. I've seen many a thread get heated here, and I've never seen anyone banned for their ideas, merely if they attack fellow members and don't show respect.

This person is using that whole freedom of speech taken to the extreme idea, that if one isn't allowed to be a total jerk then their freedoms are being curtailed.

This is also the kind of person who thinks political correctness means not being allowed to be your true self, when the idea is merely thinking before you say something and taking the feelings of others into consideration. Yes, like with anything, political correctness can go to far, but it isn't in and of itself a bad thing. God forbid we should think before we speak. The horror, the horror.

Don

Bringing up stupidity from another board?

Don't do it here. Not cool. Seriously, not cool.

Toothpaste said:

This is also the kind of person who thinks political correctness means not being allowed to be your true self, when the idea is merely thinking before you say something and taking the feelings of others into consideration.

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I realize that, along with my other linguistic hobby-horses, like compose and comprise, and sex vs gender, I'm shouting in an empty room when I note that "political correctness" with respect to language does not mean what people think it means.

It means using language deliberately to hide the truth.

It means calling me "altitudinally challenged" when the truth is I'm short.

It means describing units of deadly radiation as "sunshine units"

It means calling massive layoffs a "reduction in work force."

It's linguistic abuse, and often, it's lying.

It is not "being PC" to say "no you can't call people [insert pejorative / bigoted epithet of your choice].

I note, that even my beloved American Heritage Dictionary has succumbed to evil re: definitions for political correctness, gender, and compose vs. comprise.

I am in mourning.

I'd argue not quite. It isn't meant to hide the truth, it is meant to "denote language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, disability, and age-related contexts."

So yes, it has been taken to the extremes you have mentioned, but it is also responsible for us calling things what they are, getting rid of the old European titles given to other races etc. So it's also calling an Inuit that and not Eskimo, it's also calling someone African American and not Negro.

Now I realise your point is in reference to the fact that that person at Writers.net accusing AW of being PC doesn't know what he/she is talking about, that they are using totally the wrong definition for it. But my point is that PC doesn't automatically mean covering up either. It just means trying to be as inoffensive as possible. And yes, this has been taken to ridiculous extremes, but the foundation of the idea is a positive one and not one based in deception.

Spend some time in P&CE and then ask that again.

Seriously. We have strong differences of opinion here, and we get into it now and then. But we can voice any opinion we want, be as un-PC as we please, so long as we can do that without making personal attacks and while Respecting Our Fellow Writers.

That respect means that we all have a nice, enjoyable place to gather, and that the fiercest, most ideologically opposed opponents on one thread can agree and laugh together on another.

It's one of the best things about AW, in my opinion.

The mods do, however, have rather highly-functioning bullshit monitors. They will stop things, even if there's no specific rule against them, if they see them as having no point other than stirring the pot. They don't whisk posts away, never to be seen again, and they don't revoke anyone's posting privileges without warning. Everything stays up, everything stays public...but there's a low bullshit thresh hold, and no room for disrespect.

Toothpaste said:

I'd argue not quite. It isn't meant to hide the truth, it is meant to "denote language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, disability, and age-related contexts."

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Yeah, that's what it means NOW.

But the term historically meant the sort of thing Orwell is writing about in "Politics and the English Language."

I'm resigned to linguistic change, so that part doesn't bother me, but using the same phrase "politically correct" to describe a decision to call a native of the Arctic Peninsula an Inuit rather than an Eskimo, and a decision to call a layoff a "reduction in force" or dead con-combatant civilians as "collateral damage" annoys my delicate sensibilities.

And, just to save y'all the trouble:

Ooooh! Medi is a language change bigot! I called it, yes, yes I did!

"denote language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, disability, and age-related contexts."

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See, I call that manners. It's PC (and laughable) when it gets to the sort of thing Medi mentions. Someone once said to my mum that she was 'differently abled'. She said 'I'm in a wheelchair not stupid'.

Oh crap. I'm a language change bigot too! *bans self*

Everybody gets his say no matter how offensive it might seem to others

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So being offensive just because they can makes it an attractive, supportive, fun atmosphere? I don't live in a real world like that, so why would I want it online?

O.O

On the average day in my real world I don't get called any names and no-one argues with me just to be contrary. And I work in a pretty contentious area. I doubt some one says something deliberately offensive to me more than once or twice amonth, max. And my world is as real as anyone's.

IdiotsRUs said:

Someone once said to my mum that she was 'differently abled'. She said 'I'm in a wheelchair not stupid'.

Oh crap. I'm a language change bigot too! *bans self*

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I get pissed off at being described as "learning disabled" (the hell I am!)

I value language change, but natural language change tends to enhance communication rather than obscure meaning. Deliberately modifying language use in order to obscure meaning (which is what happened to the phrase "politically correct" itself) offends me.

Two or three times over the last couple years I tried to get into the flow over at that other site; I really did. But what Toothpaste said is dead-bang accurate: at the end of the day it's the most sad-sack, cluster-farked, goat-grab EVAH.

About three or four grizzled vets hold sway, and with no moderation, woe betide the newbie. It's like Bartertown run by the STASI, without Mel Gibson to ride to the rescue. "Train wreck" is too kind; "abandon hope all ye who enter here" is closer to the truth of it.

Nope, I like AW just fine.

The problem with AW is that we have too many people here, like Zoombie and Kuwisdelu, who are ignorance-challenged. No matter how hard they try, they just cannot post normal stupid stuff like most of the rest of us.

caw

Don West said:

I agree that some of the posters on Writers Net, and other similar sites, can go a bit over the top at times. And the Writers Net site has more than its share of technical glitches and problems. But that sort of rough and tumble is just a replication of the real world after all. Everybody gets his say no matter how offensive it might seem to others. I'd liken Writers Net to Hyde Park Corner -- that bastion of free speech that we fought two world wars to preserve -- on the Internet.

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I think this post is ridiculous; it pretends that because we limit the rudeness with which someone can give their opinions, we limit their ability to give their opinions. Absolutely not the same thing.

However, I'm also glad to see a new member on AW, and I don't think I've welcomed you yet, so Welcome to the Cooler.

See...I attacked your post, not you, and I gave reasons. And now we've both voiced our opinion, and have grounds for debate, and yet we haven't attacked each other, and can still get along nicely.

Rather than stopping discussion or debate, which is what censorship is all about, AW's policies facilitate it.

Don West said:

I agree that some of the posters on Writers Net, and other similar sites, can go a bit over the top at times. And the Writers Net site has more than its share of technical glitches and problems. But that sort of rough and tumble is just a replication of the real world after all. Everybody gets his say no matter how offensive it might seem to others. I'd liken Writers Net to Hyde Park Corner -- that bastion of free speech that we fought two world wars to preserve -- on the Internet.

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Well, if you love Writers.net so much, and it's so much preferable to AW, what are you doing here? Did you fall into a black hole that sucked you down to this singularity of political correctness, and alas, now you can never escape?

A first thread about what's wrong with the site on which it's posted. Smells like troll shit to me.*


*OMG, did I just offend all the trolls out there? Not to mention the naughty word. Bad me.

Don West said:

Everybody gets his say no matter how offensive it might seem to others. I'd liken [site redacted] to Hyde Park Corner -- that bastion of free speech that we fought two world wars to preserve -- on the Internet.

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Don, how long have you been online?

Because that's nothing like rough-and-tumble. There's this little thing called UseNet, that if you can wade through the pr0n, is rough-and-tumble.

And if I wanted that, I'd still be on UseNet, and still running a UseNet server.

I think you need to get out more, dude.

IdiotsRUs said:

Ooooh! Medi is a language change bigot! I called it, yes, yes I did!

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I want to formally complain.

Buster!

IdiotsRUs called me a name! !!! !!

Medievalist said:

IdiotsRUs called me a name! !!! !!

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But I did it in a cute, PC way, right? No? Oops? *hangs head in shame and goes to the naughty corner* the one with the bar

I think this post is ridiculous; it pretends that because we limit the rudeness with which someone can give their opinions, we limit their ability to give their opinions. Absolutely not the same thing.

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This is bang on the money.

I've never understood why or how being polite and well-mannered seems to have fallen out of fashion. There's being blunt, and there's being rude. Or sexist, or bigoted, etc.

There's also being disingenous, and then there's being polite. I'm not sure how the two are that hard to differentiate, but apparently they are for some.