PDA

View Full Version : Dungeons & Dragons



defyalllogic
05-08-2010, 12:50 AM
Can someone explain it to me? I'm super curious but have no clue what the first thing is.

how does it work? how do you find people? what happens? what's it like IRL? do people just find groups and play with them? could i watch someone play? whats the etiquette?

tell me more!

(thanks for you time)

...
i went through all 13 pages and don't think i saw a D&D thread.

Kitty Pryde
05-08-2010, 12:59 AM
Basically all you need to know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHdXG2gV01k

WildScribe
05-08-2010, 01:11 AM
Ah! Don't say that! As hilarious as it is, it really is a parody.

Okay, only just a little maybe.

I am not a dork! I'm NOT!!



D&D is a fantasy world roleplaying adventure game. You can explore the world, go adventuring in a dungeon, or basically whatever other story your Game Master or Dungeon Master wants to prepare. The DM describes the setting, and you describe what your character is doing within the setting. Things that require skill, from swimming to tying knots to evading traps, require you to roll dice to determine if you succeed or fail. Sometimes, like with the knots, you roll the dice, tell the DM your score, and only he or she will actually know if the knot will hold until you test it out.

The game is basically a handful of friends sitting around the table playing the game, having off topic conversations, laughing, and yeah, usually eating total crap food.

If you want to know anything more specific, you can message me, I'm horrible at checking back in threads.

defyalllogic
05-08-2010, 02:30 AM
i want to guess before i click: is it summoner geeks?!

Monkey
05-08-2010, 02:31 AM
I'm another D&D player. WildScribe was pretty spot-on. Think of it as writing a novel where the DM gets to write the scene and set up the situation, and each player gets to decide who their character is and how that character reacts to the situation. Then you roll dice to resolve the action.

Most people have "house rules", altering the official rules to fit their particular group's style, and each group pretty much has a culture all its own. But basically, it's you and a group of friends sitting around a table full of reference books and food, each of you holding a piece of paper that describes your particular character's abilities, telling a story.

Also, D&D is just one roleplaying game. There is also Werewolf, Vampire, Mage, Wraith, and Changeling, all set in a company called White Wolf's "World of Darkness". There's also Deliria--but that one, while beautifully illustrated in the manuals and vividly brought to life--can be hard to learn. There's Rifts, which is so freakin' huge it is literally anything you want it to be, and also GURPs, a generic set of role-playing rules you can apply to your own concepts (although, honestly, you can come up with your own concepts in any of these systems--that's part of the point.) There's also Shadowrun, which is a darker, post-apocalyptic type game, and a ton of others.

What kind of game are you interested in?

Lhun
05-08-2010, 03:35 AM
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP

Monkey
05-08-2010, 04:01 AM
That chick tract is really funny, great for a laugh if you have a sense of humor like mine, but otherwise worthless, IMO.

If your character dies, you just make another or grab a back-up. The DM just works the new one into the story. No one's going to freak out about it. In fact, some very funny gaming stories involve characters doing something really stupid and getting fried.

And no, you'll not find any "real spells" in the D&D books. You won't learn to use mind control on your parents. Sorry.


Actually, you know what? A while back I created a role-playing game based on a book that I'd done. Both got contracts with a small press, which I later cancelled due to irreconcilable differences and my realization that the first book actually kind of sucked. The game was good, though--we had a blast playtesting it--and it's illustrated, too. It was made with people who have never RP'd in their life in mind, and I will gladly send you a copy if you'd like to try an RPG with zero upfront cost. (Except dice...you'll need ten-sided dice, which you can get online or in a gaming store. But the ms would be free.)

I won't take offense if you aren't interested; there's a ton of different systems out there because different people like different kinds of games. PM me if you want to know more about it--I don't want to derail the thread.

ETA: A funny D&D video that shows a mom freaking out about teh eveel... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM7YhMfN0v4&feature=related Lurve it! :D

Fulk
05-08-2010, 05:26 AM
I would liken it to a choose-your-own-adventure novel with a group of friends. Which, I guess sums up the descriptions already given in this thread. The strength of the game, I think, is that it can be anything you want it to be. It can be a simple dungeon crawl for treasure, a game of intrigue, an epic story, or some mix of all of the above.

I really like Dungeons and Dragons and its settings, even if it is responsible for some wall-banging fantasy cliches. I personally can only play with close friends, and even then, it's difficult because I'm quiet and have a hard time getting into the mind of my character when sitting around in a circle of friends, let alone strangers. I have an easier time with text-based or video game adaptations (Neverwinter Nights, Fantasy Grounds, etc).

It's a really great bonding experience though, and my circle of friends has more than a handful of inside jokes that resulted from tabletop gaming.

Monkey
05-08-2010, 06:06 AM
Hey, I actually found a video showing a real gaming group playing D&D for real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwRxXbcruUg&feature=related

You don't need the big maps and props that these guys use, but this is a good depiction of how it plays out. Of course, usually there's more food involved, and this group is pretty focused--off-topic banter and lots of kidding around tend to be the norm. I don't know how many times our gaming session has been interrupted by laugh-inducing stories about our other gaming sessions--sometimes ones that everyone present was there for!

And it can be kind of a nerdy thing... I admit. :D But our group has all sorts of professionals who also kick butt in their off time. Despite the stereotypes, it's not just kids who flunked PE hanging out in a basement somewhere...even though the video I'm linking depicts people in a basement. It's not always a basement, dammit!

LOG
05-08-2010, 08:49 AM
I don't remember who said it, but someone on here described it as 'collaborative fiction.'

Fulk
05-09-2010, 11:23 PM
So, there's been an eerie coincidence: yesterday I got invited to play D&D with my friends, a day after I commented on this thread. It was a short adventure session, with the party setting out to a ruined city to recover some books that some group is interested in.

We played in a basement. :P

Monkey
05-10-2010, 06:47 AM
Heh. We played 'till late last night--me, my husband, and four of our friends. We got a little crazy as the night wore on, essentially holding a rave in the underdark.

AND WE LIVED. :D



ETA: No basements involved. :tongue

whistlelock
05-10-2010, 07:10 PM
how does it work? how do you find people? what happens? what's it like IRL? do people just find groups and play with them? could i watch someone play? whats the etiquette?

.

How it works varies slightly by edition and who's running the game but ti's all pretty much simple math.

You find people who play the same way you find people who do anything else- find out where they hang out at and go there. typically the larger scale comic shops and game stores.

what's it like in irl? really boring to watch but it can be a lot of fun to play.

ettiguette? bring chips but not the kind that leave cheese dust on your fingers. You don't want to muck up the books or someone's character sheet. No, seriously, it's important.

Monkey
05-10-2010, 09:58 PM
I suggest that rather than going out and finding people who already play, you start a group of your own.

Every gaming group has its own sort of mini-culture, built around the preferences, attitudes, and skills of the players, and each has its own in-jokes, etiquette, history, and interactions.

If you try gaming with a group whose mini-culture bugs you, you aren't likely to enjoy the game. Pencil and paper RPG's are very collaborative, making it important for there to be some agreement amongst the participants, and the atmosphere, history, and "hanging out" stuff is just as important as the rolls of the dice.

You only need to gather three people--one to run the game and two to run characters. Whoever is the most interested in RPG'ing should run the game because it takes the most effort: DM's have to read the source material, help everyone build characters, and then set the scene. It's their job to tell people when to roll the dice (and what dice to roll, and how many). They get final say on what that dice roll means and what happens next.

I've played with my younger brother (who's seven years younger than me) and my son and had a blast. I've also gamed with my husband's parents. You don't have to limit yourself to like-minded people of your own age or usual social set. You might be surprised how easy it is to put a group together. Just ask around and see who wants to try a pencil and paper RPG night--although, you might avoid mentioning Dungeons and Dragons to some people, because there really has been an attempt to demonize it, as has been demonstrated upthread.

For that matter, the White Wolf games that I mentioned above are a little simpler in rules set and a more interesting read, in general, than the D&D stuff. The only problem with them is that it seems the organization of the books is deliberately obtuse, so that the DM has to read everything before they can start a game. But they might be easier for beginners, and they have a wide enough variety of "flavors" to interest just about everyone.

Just to get started, if you've never gamed before, you might want to "run a module". A module is a pre-made game, where everything except what the player characters do is already set. There are maps, and background info for the DM to read out loud, and the traps/monsters/encounters are already detailed out for you. It can be fun--but in all honesty, I've been gaming around 15 years and have run through a module exactly four times, one of which being my very first game.



*Whew* I guess I'm more of a dork than I realized...I don't know when to shut up about gaming, apparently. :D I think I'll wait for the OP to come back before posting again...

defyalllogic
05-10-2010, 10:57 PM
you guys are all super helpful!

thanks so much for your input. (it's a lot to digest)

SPMiller
05-10-2010, 11:00 PM
Rocks fall. Everyone dies.

LOG
05-11-2010, 02:38 AM
"Only plus 8 strength? Kelsey what kind of broken buff mage are you?"
"One who's also casting immunity to fire on everyone and persistent haste on 8 people."

whistlelock
05-12-2010, 10:03 AM
Ogres?

I gotta knife that's +9 against Ogres!

LOG
05-12-2010, 10:34 AM
"And the mage draws her two handed sword."
"We're in trouble."
----
"I have an announcement to make. I am not really an elf. Yea werily, I am a tree. I have come to the human lands to
observe you and your kind, but now I am going back to the forest because, after observing you, I have decided that
all humans are completely insane."
--Ed running Oethnar in the final session; or, "What happens when you break up with your girlfriend
and leave your PC in somebody else's hands"

^Just some quotes from teh intrawebz.

GeorgeK
05-12-2010, 11:52 AM
I am not a dork! I'm NOT!!
.

Embrace your dorkitude! It is neither a fault, nor that to which to be afraid. Nor should you worry the fear of never finding a wife, because most dorks are swans and women want swans, not pigs that would do anything that can't run away, or coyotes that at least give the targets the option of running away...even if they seem to, until they hear the biological clock ticking...Dorks survive. Wild pigs and coyotes get hunted.

SPMiller
05-12-2010, 01:53 PM
"And the mage draws her two handed sword."
"We're in trouble."sorcerer 6 / abjurant champion 5 / knight phantom 9

1 sor Otherworldly, Combat Casting, [Summon Familiar]
2 sor
3 sor Still Spell
4 sor +1 cha
5 sor
6 sor Power Attack
7 kni [Somatic Prowess]
8 kni +1 cha
9 ac Arcane Strike, [Abjurant Armor], [Extended Abjuration]
10 ac [Swift Abjuration]
11 ac
12 ac +1 cha, Extend Spell, [Arcane Boost]
13 ac [Martial Arcanist]
14 kni
15 kni Persistent Spell, [Aspect of the Phantom]
16 kni +1 cha
17 kni
18 kni Heighten Spell, [Countenance of the Phantom]
19 kni
20 kni +1 cha

Hooray for 3.5 ed.

Monkey
05-12-2010, 05:05 PM
Bah. Hate big hate everything past 2nd ed AD&D plus years of house rules. :D

dclary
05-13-2010, 01:24 AM
Ok, jokes aside: this is how dungeons and dragons works:

you get one person who wants to lead a group of friends (or strangers) through a story, letting them choose how the story goes.

The rules establish a framework for the story's mechanics.

Everything else is just people interacting with each other through an agreed-upon creative filter in place in their minds.

Wise Child
05-13-2010, 02:32 AM
The demonization of Dungeons & Dragons during the 80s "Satanic Panic" was more or less traced to the first edition of the Deities & Demigods supplement, which featured statistics of a bloodthirsty Aztec deity. A concept that was rarely used by players, but the moral panic crowd jumped onto it, while vaguely referencing it, forsaking it's (historical) context, which lead to the presumption that blood sacrifice and baby eating was standard in the game.

This interesting blog entry explains it fairly well:

http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/10/tlaloc.html

LOG
05-13-2010, 02:54 AM
The demonization of Dungeons & Dragons during the 80s "Satanic Panic" was more or less traced to the first edition of the Deities & Demigods supplement, which featured statistics of a bloodthirsty Aztec deity. A concept that was rarely used by players, but the moral panic crowd jumped onto it, while vaguely referencing it, forsaking it's (historical) context, which lead to the presumption that blood sacrifice and baby eating was standard in the game.

This interesting blog entry explains it fairly well:

http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/10/tlaloc.html

What was that you were saying about human intelligence Monkey?

dclary
05-13-2010, 03:34 AM
The demonization of Dungeons & Dragons during the 80s "Satanic Panic" was more or less traced to the first edition of the Deities & Demigods supplement, which featured statistics of a bloodthirsty Aztec deity. A concept that was rarely used by players, but the moral panic crowd jumped onto it, while vaguely referencing it, forsaking it's (historical) context, which lead to the presumption that blood sacrifice and baby eating was standard in the game.

This interesting blog entry explains it fairly well:

http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/10/tlaloc.html

You forget that in addition, the monster manual's "D" section was 182 pages, 90 of which were various demons and devils, including all the major bugaboos of the major chrisitian franchises (with the exception of Lou himself).

SPMiller
05-13-2010, 04:22 AM
When I was in middle school in the Dallas area in the 90s, the Magic card game (as well as D&D) was subject to the same accusations of being "Satanic" or "demonic" or whatever. Parents threw away or burned decks, and school administrators confiscated any cards they saw indefinitely. There was a panic among the old folks.

Zoombie
05-13-2010, 04:33 AM
in my school, they banned Magic just cause of the violent images on some of the card.

Lefty bannination has less burning...

Monkey
05-13-2010, 04:38 AM
Not too long ago, some churches were doing the same thing with Pokemon cards. I even remember a story about one over-zealous priest slashing a card in half *with a sword* in front of his congregation, who apparently thought that a sane thing to do.


What was that you were saying about human intelligence Monkey?

The people here tend to bolster my faith in it. The people we discuss, not so much. ;)

And as I said before, never read the comment sections. This goes triple for YouTube.

Fulk
05-13-2010, 07:31 AM
Yeah, Pokemon cards got a ban in schools and unfavorable attention in a good score of local churches where I live. I even remember picking up a pamphlet one of the churches had distributed that revealed all of the "violent" and "demonic" influences in Pokemon. This happened to be when I was quite smitten with the Pokemon franchise.

Then came Harry Potter. And, well, that's self-explanatory.

LOG
05-13-2010, 10:07 AM
Then came Harry Potter. And, well, that's self-explanatory.

They didn't like botanical terms?

jennontheisland
05-13-2010, 05:12 PM
Granted I'm in Canada, but I was living in one of the most conservative provinces when my elementary school hand selected 6 kids from my grade to participate in a special project. All the smarty pants kids got to spend one hour three times a week playing D&D with a teacher as Dungeon Master. I was the map drawer.

I was devastated when the project ended because I had no idea that it was a game that could be played outside of school.

Mara
05-17-2010, 12:35 PM
You forget that in addition, the monster manual's "D" section was 182 pages, 90 of which were various demons and devils, including all the major bugaboos of the major chrisitian franchises (with the exception of Lou himself).

Er, which printing are you talking about? The Monster Manual I've got for AD&D 1e only has eight pages combined for demons and devils, and only a handful of the arch-devils had names from Christian lore. The whole book is only about 120 pages or so.

Brown Box D&D before that only had balrogs from Lord of the Rings that I remembered. And AD&D 2e took out demons and devils for the most part. Even 3e's "Legions of Hell" supplement didn't have all that many devils in it.

Monkey
05-17-2010, 05:05 PM
Yeah, I was wondering about that...2nd edition Monster Manual certainly didn't have many demons...and from what I've seen (although I don't play them) 3rd and 4th don't either. Not even close.

But I don't remember First Edition that well--haven't played it but once, back in high school, so I didn't argue.

ETA: I just stumbled upon the third edition Monster Manual III...it was right in my dining room. It was in a pile of gaming books, and I don't know if my husband picked it up for ideas, or if a friend of ours left it or what. Weird. Anyway, it has exactly two demons; one is listed as

Demon, Arrow
Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri)

and the other as

Demon, Sorrowsworn
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri)


They each have quite long descriptions, neither of which mentions anything that would connect them in any way to biblical demons, other than the fact that they are Very Bad Things. The Arrow Demon is listed as "waging war" against "devils".

But certainly, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition don't have many critters listed as "demons" or "devils", although they do have them...and if Mara says 1st doesn't either, I believe her--both because she gave details and because that's how I remember it, too, albeit my experience was limited.

But even at that--does just having a creature called a demon or a devil make a book or game bad, even when that thing is presented primarily as something to kill, destroy, or avoid? I mean, there are quite a few religious books and games that wouldn't meet that standard, right?

Lhun
05-18-2010, 12:28 AM
Anyway, it has exactly two demons;<snip>

But certainly, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition don't have many critters listed as "demons" or "devils", although they do have them...That's because you're only looking in one of the monster manuals. MM II & I have more. MM I alone has at least a dozen. Because of the modular (cough money-grabbing-WotC-bastards cough) structure of 3rd ED you'll never find everything on one topic in a single book.

Monkey
05-18-2010, 01:25 AM
Interesting. Like I said, I don't do 3E. Or 4th. Part of it is because I don't like what they're doing to the system, and part in protest to, as you put it, the money-grubbing tactics.

Still, 12 (and I bet most of those twelve are similar to the ones I quoted above, rather than biblical), is a far cry from 90...and like I said, putting demons up as something to battle is a bit different from putting them up as something to idolize or mimic.

I did hear that they made the Tiefling (a half-demon) a PC (player character) race in 4th edition, though, so maybe all the ranting about D&D was merely premature. Maybe now it really will teach you real spells, bring you over to the dark side, and force you to commit suicide in order to pay for your drug habit. Stay away from 4th edition, kids! It's Teh EVEEL! :D

Mara
05-18-2010, 08:10 AM
I'd point out that many of the people from the 1970s/1980s who claimed D&D was satanic also claimed that contemporary Christian music was satanic and part of a government-sponsored satanic conspiracy. I'm not kidding.

Their arguments are invalid from both a secular and a Christian point of view, and largely based on outright lies anyway.

That's why most people (especially Christian gamers) make fun of them, but I just thought I'd mention it if there's anyone around who's a non-gamer and doesn't realize just how ridiculous their statements were.

whistlelock
05-18-2010, 09:42 AM
Er, which printing are you talking about? Maybe he means the Fiend Folio?

Monkey
05-18-2010, 08:12 PM
D&D is a huge game...Rifts is bigger, I think, but maybe not by a hell of a lot. It's probably not bigger, if you include all these new-fangled D20 sourcebooks.

It's sort of like those cell phone commercials:

Want to populate your D&D world with demons and ghouls? There's an app source material for that.

Want to populate your D&D world with fairies and cute little woodland creatures? There's an app source material for that.

Want to populate your D&D world with space-faring, plane shifting ninjas? There's an app source material for that.

And of course, when there's not source material, we make it up as we go along. :D

dclary
05-19-2010, 11:24 PM
Er, which printing are you talking about? The Monster Manual I've got for AD&D 1e only has eight pages combined for demons and devils, and only a handful of the arch-devils had names from Christian lore. The whole book is only about 120 pages or so.

Brown Box D&D before that only had balrogs from Lord of the Rings that I remembered. And AD&D 2e took out demons and devils for the most part. Even 3e's "Legions of Hell" supplement didn't have all that many devils in it.

**exaggeration added for emphasis.

defyalllogic
05-20-2010, 12:25 AM
so what are these books for? i thought you made it all up.

if there was a starter kit, what would go in it?

Monkey
05-20-2010, 03:41 AM
The books give a jumping-off place. They give a setting, character classes, magic spells, weapons, abilities, and rules--all of which you are free to take or leave. But when you're just starting out, you'll probably take more than you leave; it's only as you go along and run across rules that don't make sense to you or see that what you want isn't there that you really start to deviate from the main system.

For instance, in D&D, you have statistics for Intelligence, Wisdom, Strength, Dexterity, Comeliness, Charisma, and Constitution, all rated by a number, 1-20. In our gaming group, we add two more, Speed and Perception.

But if we're playing in a WhiteWolf game, we have different categories for different abilities, and they're all on rating system based on much lower numbers.

A 4 is an incredibly low stat in D&D, but better than average in WhiteWolf.

MGraybosch
05-20-2010, 04:40 AM
The books give a jumping-off place. They give a setting, character classes, magic spells, weapons, abilities, and rules--all of which you are free to take or leave. But when you're just starting out, you'll probably take more than you leave; it's only as you go along and run across rules that don't make sense to you or see that what you want isn't there that you really start to deviate from the main system.

For instance, in D&D, you have statistics for Intelligence, Wisdom, Strength, Dexterity, Comeliness, Charisma, and Constitution, all rated by a number, 1-20. In our gaming group, we add two more, Speed and Perception.

I once coded a D&D-based Wizardry-style dungeon crawler as a birthday present for my wife. Instead of using the D&D staple stats for PCs and some arbitrary stat system for monsters, all characters -- PC or monster -- had the same stats:


Power
Endurance
Agility
Dexterity
Reason
Emotion
Discipline

Stats could be between 1 and 9, and a multiplier was applied. At level 1, the multiplier was 1x. Each level gained after that added .1 to the multiplier, so that at level 6 the multiplier was 1.5x, and at level 11 it was 2x.

The game was called "The Dungeons Are Calling".

LOG
05-20-2010, 10:55 AM
I want my Online D&D damnit.

AceTachyon
05-21-2010, 07:14 PM
I want my Online D&D damnit.
Go to DDO.com, download, and start playing.

AceTachyon
05-21-2010, 07:22 PM
They each have quite long descriptions, neither of which mentions anything that would connect them in any way to biblical demons, other than the fact that they are Very Bad Things. The Arrow Demon is listed as "waging war" against "devils".

But certainly, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition don't have many critters listed as "demons" or "devils", although they do have them...and if Mara says 1st doesn't either, I believe her--both because she gave details and because that's how I remember it, too, albeit my experience was limited.
IIRC, in 3rd Ed. demons were known as "tanar'ri" and devils were "baatezu".

MGraybosch
05-21-2010, 07:31 PM
Go to DDO.com, download, and start playing.

Screw that. Get a PS3 and a copy of Demon's Souls. :evil

Monkey
05-21-2010, 08:38 PM
I have a blog now, and I'm going to be giving away the RPG I made a section at a time, starting tomorrow. Better than letting it sit on my hard drive, slacking off. :tongue


if there was a starter kit, what would go in it?

Most RPG sourcebooks are meant as "starter kits" in that they set the scene and teach you the system. They can be complicated, though, and you have to kind of read through everything before you're really ready to run a game.

"Modules" are pre-made games, usually set in one particular system, where most of the work is done for you--that's a pretty good place to start, once you've read the primary sourcebook.


At any rate, I think your question really is about why you'd need rule books at all, if RPG'ing is just creative collaboration (forgive me if I misunderstood).

Here's why:

You've put your characters in the middle of a battle.
One player says she want her character to
1) put her shield over her head to block the oncoming volley of arrows,
2) run toward the man on horseback, so she can
3) grab his foot, and then
4) jerk him off his mount, and finally
5) stab him with her long sword.

Now. You're running this game. You know that the man on the horse is a skilled horseman, accustomed to battle, and wearing full plate. He's not just going to sit there and watch all this happen, and since he's a major character, you don't want him taken out just because a player says so--especially when their plan isn't all that great.

Also, you may have more than one player, all acting at the same time, sometimes at cross purposes.

So your rules set will tell you who goes first and how many actions they can do before it's someone else's turn. They will also tell you:

1) How strong the shield is vs the arrows, and how likely the person is to get struck running through a volley like this.
2) How far the character can run under these conditions and in the time alloted to "their turn".
3) If the man on horseback has time to block, counter-attack, or simply move his foot out of the way
4) Who will win in a contest of strength and dexterity, such as one person trying to jerk another off a horse
and
5) Whether the knight has time to resist being stabbed, and how much protection his armor provides against the character's sword.

To do these things fairly and consistently, in an open format that the players and game master can all agree on, you need rules. Also, if the players get to say, "Oh, a dragon? My character kills it," then there's no challenge, and no feeling of accomplishment. There's also no really funny stories about wild attempts that failed--or succeeded when there's no way that they should have. :D

Mara
05-22-2010, 09:12 AM
Quick Summary of Fiends in D&D:

OD&D: Tolkien's balrog was included, if I'm not mistaken. It was later renamed "balor" for copyright reasons.

AD&D 1e: There are demons and devils in the Monster Manual 1, but not as many as other categories of monsters. Demons are Chaotic Evil incarnate (anarchy and evil) and pretty much all weird-looking and original (except the balor). Devils are Lawful Evil incarnate (oppressive, organized tyrants) and are _very_ loosely inspired by Dante's Inferno. Demons and devils hate each other and constantly fight, and are constantly thwarted by angels anyway. The Monster Manual II added some new fiends, but mostly they were totally original (such as Yeenoghu and Lolth, who are the demon patrons of gnolls and dark elves, respectively.) The leaders of the demons were Demogorgon and Orcus, and the leader of the devils was Asmodeus. Of all of the named fiends (as opposed to generic fiends), only Asmodeus is particularly similar to popular notions of "the Devil," and he's not similar to the actual Biblical Satan or Lucifer.

Demons and devils rarely did much in published modules, and generally were just cannon fodder that worked for other monsters. They were never portrayed in a positive light.

AD&D 2e: Demons and devils were nearly totally removed. The marilith (six-armed snake lady) and balor (Tolkien's balrog) were the only demons in the Monster Manual, and the pit fiend (gargoyle devil) and abishai (dragon/gargoyles) were the only devils, and they were called tanar'ri and baatezu instead of demons and devils. Planescape brought more of the old fiends back, but any reference to modern religions was completely eliminated, which basically just meant that Asmodeus was replaced by some other guy.

Outside of Planescape, the fiends didn't show up much in published modules and they weren't very important.

D&D 3e: They brought the demons and devils back as major villains, with tanar'ri and baatezu being the dominant subraces of each. The archfiends started showing up more often as major villains, but still weren't as strong as dragons or certain other monsters, and weren't central to the setting.

D&D 4e: Demons and devils got changed around a lot. Asmodeus is a fallen angel who betrayed a god and stole his power, and the other devils are fallen angels who serve him. Demons are insane elementals, and their leader, Orcus, is the "final boss" in two published adventure series. This edition actually has more fiends than the previous editions, but doesn't particularly glorify them.

Editions 1-3: Each rank of angel is about 3-5 times stronger than the equivalent rank of demon or devil, and the heroes never fight angels.

Edition 4: "Angel" is expanded to include devils and the minions of evil gods, but good angels still tend to be more powerful than demons and evil angels.

All Editions: Demons and devils are portrayed as monsters to be fought, not allies, servants, or patrons for the player characters.

Monkey
05-22-2010, 06:48 PM
That would explain my take on the "not so many in D&D" thing. I pretty much stick to second edition.

But honestly, I don't see why people seem so worried about the number of demons or devils or kobolds or dragons or whatever. To have a game where good is triumphant over legions of bad guys, you need to have bad guys.

To judge a game by how many bad guys exist in it, rather than the roles that they play, is ridiculous. To judge a game like D&D, where the players have full say on what appears in it and what doesn't, based on the fact that bad things could appear in it, is beyond ridiculous.

That some people are still harping on D&D, given that popular entertainment provides so many better opportunities to complain, just boggles my mind.

LOG
05-23-2010, 11:07 AM
Go to DDO.com, download, and start playing.

I already have that one.
That's just Eberron. I want D&D.

Monkey
05-23-2010, 05:53 PM
*In high-pitched singing voice*

I want my...
I want my...
I want my Dee and Deeeeeeeee.....

*Cue guitars*

LOG
05-23-2010, 08:24 PM
*In high-pitched singing voice*

I want my...
I want my...
I want my Dee and Deeeeeeeee.....

*Cue guitars*
0.o

Monkey
05-23-2010, 08:44 PM
Oh, come on, you know...the MTV song...

Mara
05-24-2010, 12:14 AM
Oh, come on, you know...the MTV song...

'Tis by Dire Straits.

Fulk
05-24-2010, 05:14 AM
I already have that one.
That's just Eberron. I want D&D.

I've heard rumors/whisperings of an MMO being set in the Forgotten Realms setting. I forgot where I heard it, or who was in charge of it. My first thought would be Bioware, considering they have their hands on Neverwinter Nights and all, but they're focused on Star Wars The Old Republic.

I did some poking around and haven't come up with anything--most rumors of a Forgotten Realms MMO by Bioware were before they announced Old Republic, so it could be just a resurgence of that rumor. But I swear there was some credibility to it.

Mharvey
06-02-2010, 07:31 PM
I've heard rumors/whisperings of an MMO being set in the Forgotten Realms setting. I forgot where I heard it, or who was in charge of it. My first thought would be Bioware, considering they have their hands on Neverwinter Nights and all, but they're focused on Star Wars The Old Republic.

I did some poking around and haven't come up with anything--most rumors of a Forgotten Realms MMO by Bioware were before they announced Old Republic, so it could be just a resurgence of that rumor. But I swear there was some credibility to it.

I'd be down for that, but I'm hoping they set it before the Spellplague. I found that whole 4e twist to be tacky.It would be like taking Middle Earth, destroying half of it, turning elves into trolls, dwarves into wookies and hobbits into angry pirates who drink rum and swear alot... then calling it Middle Earth 4e, and then marketing it as a D&D world with the pitch of a "fresh new take on the world you love."

Some things are sacred. Faerun was one of those things. ;)

SPMiller
06-02-2010, 11:34 PM
Uh, Atari holds the rights to D&D video games, Wizards of the Coast is full of assholes, and I'm not sure Bioware will ever work on another D&D game again. There's a legal clusterfuck going on right now about licensing, in fact. The point of Bioware creating Dragon Age was to develop independent IP so that they'd finally be free of the bullshit.

D&D 4ed was designed specifically for implementation in video games, probably to avoid the loss of developers such as Bioware. But it was too late.

Jess Haines
06-02-2010, 11:59 PM
Just as I was getting the hang of 3.0/3.5, 4e came out. :(

I haven't gotten into 4e on general principles.

Mara
06-03-2010, 07:54 AM
D&D 4ed was designed specifically for implementation in video games, probably to avoid the loss of developers such as Bioware. But it was too late.

I've never heard that. I think it was actually that 4e just took some inspiration from MMORPGs because it actually worked and because they thought it would be more familiar to newer players.

Weirdly enough, I don't think 4e combat would work very well in a video game unless it were completely turn-based (not active time turn-based like Neverwinter Nights). It would work well in an older tactical-style game, but there aren't a lot of those left.

LOG
06-03-2010, 11:14 AM
FR MMO isn't happening atm, I hope it doesn't.
Eberron was used as an MMO idea because it has so much room available to expand, which they are doing. Sort of like how WoW expanded Warcraft lore.

When I say D&D online, I'm not talking about an MMO. It's an idea WotC had awhile back to make an online system where people could create and play with their characters completely online. There would be a dungeon creation system and everything. It was the spark that led to the birth of character creator and online info guides, they were made to complement it. Last I heard it was still kind of sitting on the back-burner for them.

MGraybosch
06-03-2010, 04:43 PM
0.o

"Money for Nothing" by Dire Straits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAD6Obi7Cag)

Mara
06-04-2010, 09:29 AM
FR MMO isn't happening atm, I hope it doesn't.
Eberron was used as an MMO idea because it has so much room available to expand, which they are doing. Sort of like how WoW expanded Warcraft lore.

When I say D&D online, I'm not talking about an MMO. It's an idea WotC had awhile back to make an online system where people could create and play with their characters completely online. There would be a dungeon creation system and everything. It was the spark that led to the birth of character creator and online info guides, they were made to complement it. Last I heard it was still kind of sitting on the back-burner for them.

Yeah, I remember that. I doubt that's going to happen any time soon, if ever. They got a little behind on implementing a lot of online services they had planned, really underestimated the workload, and realized that most people wanted more focus on the Compendium and Character Builder.

It probably didn't help that the demo for their online tabletop looked slow and ugly, and that they were actually planning to charge people for packs of "virtual miniatures."

SPMiller
06-04-2010, 10:44 AM
There are already acceptably decent virtual tabletops for free. I've used them for both 40k and D&D 3.5ed games.

Zoombie
06-04-2010, 11:04 AM
The only problem I have with virtual tabletops is that I can never get the damn things to connect through my routers and firewalls.

Monkey
06-04-2010, 07:17 PM
Played a new table-top RPG last night: Exalted.

Took a while to build all the characters, and we only got our intro done, but I'm really enjoying my concept/character so far. :)

bladestalker
06-05-2010, 10:38 AM
If you like Exalted, you would have probably loved Earthdawn in it's prime.

Monkey
06-06-2010, 09:43 PM
I liked Exalted because I got to build a shape-shifter (Lunar) who is as much horse as human. :) If she kicks someone, they're going to fly into next week. :tongue

Mara
06-06-2010, 10:46 PM
I liked Exalted because I got to build a shape-shifter (Lunar) who is as much horse as human. :) If she kicks someone, they're going to fly into next week. :tongue

The great thing about Exalted is that second sentence might be literal. :)

Favorite Charms:

There's a Sidereal Etiquette charm where you dodge an attack and escape. When you're attacked, you activate the charm. It alters time so that you actually apologized for having to leave and walked away from the scene several minutes earlier, but were so polite that nobody noticed you left until they try to swing at you.

It's also possible to use a combo of social charms so that you glow and "power up", then tell a really good joke, like Tien does in Dragon Ball Z.

In one game I ran for a single player, an army of archers were shooting at his character. He used a couple of charms to drastically enhance his agility and make himself effectively weightless, then jumped onto the nearest arrow and ran up the rest of the flying arrows like aerial stairs, using them like a ramp to get a running start and jump to the top of a tower.

Exalted is cool like that. :) Too bad the system gives me a headache.

Romantic Heretic
06-07-2010, 02:41 AM
Strange to run across this thread. I found all my 1st Edition D&D books while I was moving recently. :cool:

Monkey
06-07-2010, 07:16 AM
My husband's playing a sidereal. Gotta admit that some of their abilities are pretty cool.

I still like my character better. :tongue

I don't mean to pull the conversation off track, though; it's just, too me, "D&D" is synonymous with "paper-and-pencil RPG" which is synonymous with all pencil and paper RPG's. We'll have a "D&D night" where we play Werewolf, or in the case of our last game, Exalted. It's just how we roll. :D But, realizing that this might not be the same for everyone, I'll try to stop digressing quite so much.

Mara
06-08-2010, 09:16 AM
My husband's playing a sidereal. Gotta admit that some of their abilities are pretty cool.

I still like my character better. :tongue

I don't mean to pull the conversation off track, though; it's just, too me, "D&D" is synonymous with "paper-and-pencil RPG" which is synonymous with all pencil and paper RPG's. We'll have a "D&D night" where we play Werewolf, or in the case of our last game, Exalted. It's just how we roll. :D But, realizing that this might not be the same for everyone, I'll try to stop digressing quite so much.

On RPG forums, I don't assume "D&D" means anything other than "D&D." But on other forums, it usually does because most people who don't play RPGs have never heard of the other ones, except maybe Vampire. :)

Mouseferatu
06-08-2010, 11:04 AM
On RPG forums, I don't assume "D&D" means anything other than "D&D." But on other forums, it usually does

Oh, God. You people are going to make me learn a whole new vocabulary for speaking to non-hardcore gamers, aren't you? ;)

AceTachyon
06-08-2010, 07:57 PM
On RPG forums, I don't assume "D&D" means anything other than "D&D." But on other forums, it usually does because most people who don't play RPGs have never heard of the other ones, except maybe Vampire. :)


Oh, God. You people are going to make me learn a whole new vocabulary for speaking to non-hardcore gamers, aren't you? ;)
There's new vocabulary?

Can't we just ID them by game? D&D. AD&D. Cyberpunk 2020. Shadowrun. Rifts. GURPS. CoC. TFOS. Boot Hill. Traveller. etc.

Mouseferatu
06-09-2010, 09:47 AM
There's new vocabulary?

Can't we just ID them by game?

'course we can. I'm mostly just (not seriously) lamenting the fact that I'm going to have to watch myself, since I can't assume everyone here knows all the lingo I'm used to from ENWorld and RPG.net. ;)

Mara
06-09-2010, 01:43 PM
Oh, God. You people are going to make me learn a whole new vocabulary for speaking to non-hardcore gamers, aren't you? ;)

Holy crap, it's Ari Marmell!

I'm slowly becoming convinced that you're on every single forum on the internet. :)

Mouseferatu
06-10-2010, 12:05 AM
I'm slowly becoming convinced that you're on every single forum on the internet. :)

Not yet... :D

AceTachyon
06-10-2010, 09:59 PM
Holy crap, it's Ari Marmell!

I'm slowly becoming convinced that you're on every single forum on the internet. :)


Not yet... :D
Oh stop it. You know you are.

You're everywhere.

Like the Illuminati.

Mouseferatu
06-10-2010, 10:22 PM
Like the Illuminati.

There are no Illuminati. WeThey don't exist.

On a totally unrelated note, please stay where you are, with your doors unlocked, and ignore any strange noises you hear; they're just the wind or the building settling...

AceTachyon
06-11-2010, 01:15 AM
There are no Illuminati. WeThey don't exist.

On a totally unrelated note, please stay where you are, with your doors unlocked, and ignore any strange noises you hear; they're just the wind or the building settling...
Do we roll for initiative yet?

AMCrenshaw
06-11-2010, 09:12 AM
Strange to run across this thread. I found all my 1st Edition D&D books while I was moving recently. :cool:

1st Edition! Holy! I still consider the old 2nd Edition copies artifacts. But 1st edition. 1st!?

Mouseferatu
06-11-2010, 12:17 PM
1st Edition! Holy! I still consider the old 2nd Edition copies artifacts. But 1st edition. 1st!?

Thanks. I wasn't feeling old enough already. :tongue

ElizaFaith13
06-20-2010, 05:50 AM
D&D...my husband/DM thought it would be funny to cast a charm spell on my storm child, who is now in a cave somewhere doing his bidding, but at least I got to kill a beholder dead on, talk about anxiety! I think I almost passed out when I finally rolled a 20...

Mystakaphoros
09-27-2010, 07:08 AM
Speaking of all this, anybody up for an online game?

LOG
09-27-2010, 07:52 AM
Speaking of all this, anybody up for an online game?

Never understood how that works.

darkprincealain
09-27-2010, 09:46 PM
rpol.net has tons of examples. I really tried to play there, once upon a time, but I'm not frequent enough at checking it to feel confident giving it a serious go.

LOG
10-08-2011, 02:48 AM
Just had a game on WotC's Virtual Table.
Rather nice for a beta. The entire process is greatly simplified over physical pen and paper gameplay, though still limited.

Feral_Sophisticate
10-09-2011, 02:40 PM
Never understood how that works.

PBEM (Play By EMail) or PBP (Play By Post) are two common means of doing this, but aren't the only ones. There are games run on Skype, Yahoo!Messenger, MSN, IRC, etc, etc...

Basically, any medium that allows the player (and their Game Master) to communicate can be used to game.

I've done PBEM in the past, and had a lot of fun with it. I ran a game from 2000 to 2007 (only 3 or 4 years of it were actively gaming, there were some breaks in there, too), and we generated an insane amount of text - at last count, we had over 650 pages of narrative and dialogue created. Perhaps half of that would have been stuff I had written or contributed. I had great gamers, some of whom I am still in contact with (one of them will be one of my ushers, should I decide to "pop the question" to my girlfriend sometime in the near future).

Had I the time to do it again, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Gaming by email allowed for far more character and plot development than gaming at a tabletop, though at a slower pace. That may be a huge downside, for some. In those 7 years of on-and-off gaming, we only covered 6 days of "in-game" time - but we got a lot done...

LOG
01-12-2012, 09:28 AM
http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/dungeons-dragons-plans-comeback-200249601.html

RPecha
01-30-2012, 01:48 AM
I have a preference for 2nd Edition AD&D, but I still like 3rd edition. 4th edition failed miserably and 5th edition is in 'beta' (hope it is actually good, instead of trying to make everything feel like an MMO)

As the editions have went on though, the trend has been going away from Roleplay and has been focused on Ruleplay. Been playing for a long time myself so I know how things have changed. My current group is working on merging the best aspects of 2nd and 3rd edition into our own ruleset.

And as stated on the first page, some of the funniest moments are caused by death. Often times caused by critical failures, AKA Balks. There is nothing like decapitating oneself with a dagger (or impaling ones family jewels with a spear)

Granted every time we have done a storyline, we always have one idiot who ruins it (usually via causing a party wipe or chronic backstabber disorder)

LOG
01-30-2012, 05:11 AM
The 5th edition is about using player feedback to create the rules.
So you may want to look into it: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120109

Feral_Sophisticate
01-30-2012, 05:31 AM
The 5th edition is about using player feedback to create the rules.
So you may want to look into it: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120109

They had better. TSR and WoTC have been really good at ignoring feedback on their product lines. 4e was supposed to be the product of shared feedback, and they promptly ignored every suggestion made.

I remember filling out the customer comment card in the old (and original) "grey box" Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Years later, I found that TSR had pretty much ignored the responses they had received.

And then they proceeded to release products that were creative, but without a sufficiently sized market to make them viable. Spelljammer, for one. Dragonlance: Fifth Age, for another.

I sincerely hope they do use fan input for 5e, but given that 4e has only been out for 3 years, this sounds more like a survival/desperation ploy - they've lost considerable market share (and customers) to various other systems (like Pathfinder). They alienated a lot of their customers with 4e. Releasing 5e so soon after 4e is likely to alienate more - though they really don't have any other option, short of selling the D&D franchise off to a third party.

RPecha
01-30-2012, 07:01 AM
They had better. TSR and WoTC have been really good at ignoring feedback on their product lines. 4e was supposed to be the product of shared feedback, and they promptly ignored every suggestion made.

I remember filling out the customer comment card in the old (and original) "grey box" Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Years later, I found that TSR had pretty much ignored the responses they had received.

And then they proceeded to release products that were creative, but without a sufficiently sized market to make them viable. Spelljammer, for one. Dragonlance: Fifth Age, for another.

I sincerely hope they do use fan input for 5e, but given that 4e has only been out for 3 years, this sounds more like a survival/desperation ploy - they've lost considerable market share (and customers) to various other systems (like Pathfinder). They alienated a lot of their customers with 4e. Releasing 5e so soon after 4e is likely to alienate more - though they really don't have any other option, short of selling the D&D franchise off to a third party.

Its the big reason we have been experimenting eith GURPS, Vampire the Masquerade and Exalted. For D&D though, the best option IMO would be a fusion of 2nd and 3rd edition rules

Feral_Sophisticate
01-30-2012, 08:06 AM
Its the big reason we have been experimenting eith GURPS, Vampire the Masquerade and Exalted. For D&D though, the best option IMO would be a fusion of 2nd and 3rd edition rules

Indeed. I still play AD&D 2nd edition (though rarely), and now purely run games - focusing (in order of preference) on Vampire: The Masquerade (V20), Pathfinder and All Flesh Must Be Eaten.

If I'm sufficiently impressed with 5e, I may consider buying into it, though that's highly unlikely. I get my fantasy fix with Pathfinder, and I like the system. I find it more balanced than 3.x D&D, and less cumbersome than AD&D 2.5 (the "Player's Option" system - though it has interesting elements - slows the game too much).

I may buy the reprints of the 1st Edition AD&D books that are coming out this year, and start a classic 1st edition game at some point. I liked the system that called demons and devils exactly that, where assassins were great enemies, and where the bard was a ridiculously impossible character to become (yes, the system was flawed, but it was fun anyway).

Dommo
01-30-2012, 09:16 AM
My problem with 4th edition is that it plays A LOT like world of warcraft. It feels like a video game, minus the convenience of having a computer handle the hassle part. It's just too narrow for me, and I hate that your character is so much more pigeonholed in their design than in 3rd (although 3rd did kind of go off the deep end in places).

I hope they address these issues in 5th edition.

Feral_Sophisticate
01-30-2012, 09:20 AM
My problem with 4th edition is that it plays A LOT like world of warcraft. It feels like a video game, minus the convenience of having a computer handle the hassle part. It's just too narrow for me, and I hate that your character is so much more pigeonholed in their design than in 3rd (although 3rd did kind of go off the deep end in places).

I hope they address these issues in 5th edition.

Likewise... The MMO creep from 3.5e to 4e was a bit of a turnoff, and one of the things I like about Pathfinder is that it's still d20 based, but it's not quite as focused (or at least, it doesn't feel like it is) on the MMO/Pokemon-like qualities of 3.5e and 4e.

Time will tell. I have hopes, but few expectations.

thekingsguard
01-30-2012, 10:26 AM
So thoughts are divided on 5th edition? I recently did an article on it, and D&D fanatic as I am, I'll give WotC a chance.

Feral_Sophisticate
01-30-2012, 10:35 AM
So thoughts are divided on 5th edition? I recently did an article on it, and D&D fanatic as I am, I'll give WotC a chance.

Like I said before, I hope this is an improvement, but I expect little. Time will tell.

Anjasa
01-30-2012, 09:09 PM
I was only able to very lightly get into 3.5 and 4, and I gotta say... at least I had abilities to use in 4e starting out as a rogue. I mean, I like the RP as good as anyone, but there's only so many times I can fancy up the fact that I'm doing the same move over and over again.

But I only got a couple games out of each, so I was a super lowbie both times.

RPecha
01-30-2012, 09:56 PM
Like I said before, I hope this is an improvement, but I expect little. Time will tell.

I couldn't have said it better.

On a related note, has anyone ever used their time playing Pen and Paper RPGs as a brainstorming environment for characters and plots and such? I constantly keep on the lookout for things I can draw inspiration from while playing.

FOTSGreg
01-30-2012, 11:16 PM
I've still got a ton of rulebooks and supplements and magazines for 3rd ed sitting around at home. I used to run a wide-open/anything goes as long as it's in a book or magazine game using OpenRPG. Some of the characters that came in were, um, "interesting" doesn't quite define it well enough. I've still got the core books, the SW books, the Modern book, a buttload of the old magazines (ran a campaign centered around the d20 Mecha Crusade mod and was working on one for a couple of the other expansions/mods from "the olden days" of gaming - Metamorphosis: Alpha and Gamma World).

I'll have to check out rpol - Haven't heard of that one. Getting back into some gaming could be fun.

Titan Orion
03-02-2012, 01:39 AM
Bump.

Anyone else out there play DDO Stormreach these days?