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View Full Version : used bookstores & libraries, from the writer's POV



juniper
05-06-2010, 07:43 AM
I was at a thrift store today looking for a cork board and wandered past the book section. Bill Bryson's The Life and Times of the Thunderbolt Kid caught my eye and of course I grabbed it. I would read anything written by him.

And then I found Eats, Shoots and Leaves for $3, and something else.

As I was waiting to check out I started thinking about how the authors wouldn't be making any royalties from this sale.

A few days ago I'd got Before I Wake from the library and wondered about that, too. (It's wonderful, BTW. I'm totally caught up in it.)

From the viewpoint of a thrifty or poor person, those places are great resources. From the writer's POV, that's a lost sale.

For those of you who have works in print, how do you feel about people getting your books secondhand or from the library?

Stacia Kane
05-06-2010, 07:53 AM
Just fine. :)


People who buy a new author used or get them from the library might very well buy the next one new. And even if they don't they're still reading, and that's a good thing. Sometimes I see it kind of the same way as a doctor or lawyer doing some pro bono work, if that makes sense.

Now piracy? Grrrrr. But libraries and used bookstores are great. I wouldn't have been able to read half as much as I read as a child if not for them.

willietheshakes
05-06-2010, 08:24 AM
Hey, Before I Wake!

I'm fine with used book sales and libraries -- I've already received my royalties on that particular copy, and if it attracts a reader for a future book, so much the better.

(As well, in Canada we have the Public Lending Right, which pays authors for the presence of their books in public libraries. It's a way of off-setting that loss of income-per-sale). Yeah, I'm fine with it. And glad you're reading BIW!

ishtar'sgate
05-06-2010, 08:34 AM
I'm fine with used book sales and libraries -- I've already received my royalties on that particular copy, and if it attracts a reader for a future book, so much the better.

(As well, in Canada we have the Public Lending Right, which pays authors for the presence of their books in public libraries. It's a way of off-setting that loss of income-per-sale).
Yup, me too. I like getting my report from PLR. It's good to know they've found my novel in almost every library that's sampled. Getting into print took me a long time and I'm simply happy to be read. Don't get me wrong, I like the royalties but for me that's just icing on the cake.

friendlyhobo
05-06-2010, 09:06 AM
Personally I'm poor, and if there wasn't the library, I would read 75% of the books I do. I don't have the money, I don't have a choice. It's not really a lost sale, at least in my case. My small book budget exclusively goes to authors I already love/part of a series, or books I've already read (from the library) and want to own. So yeah.

CAWriter
05-06-2010, 09:06 AM
I remember the first time I saw my first book in a used book store. I had this ironic feeling that I'd arrived. What bothered me more than not getting a royalty from that (potential) sale was the fact that someone who'd had the book at one point didn't want it!

juniper
05-06-2010, 09:34 AM
I'm glad you saw this thread! I'm about 100 pages into your novel ... I cried my way through the first part ... I'd say more but I don't want to give away the plot. I'm a fan - if I ever get solvent I'll buy it in hardcover. :)



Hey, Before I Wake!

I'm fine with used book sales and libraries -- I've already received my royalties on that particular copy, and if it attracts a reader for a future book, so much the better.

(As well, in Canada we have the Public Lending Right, which pays authors for the presence of their books in public libraries. It's a way of off-setting that loss of income-per-sale). Yeah, I'm fine with it. And glad you're reading BIW!

Mr Flibble
05-06-2010, 10:41 AM
(As well, in Canada we have the Public Lending Right, which pays authors for the presence of their books in public libraries. It's a way of off-setting that loss of income-per-sale). Something similar in the UK iirc

And I'll buy a book used that I might not in a book shop just because it's cheap. And if I like it I'll buy another of that author's books from the book shop. So it can be good advertising.

Terie
05-06-2010, 11:10 AM
I, too, have no problem at all with libraries and used bookshops. Love 'em, actually. The biggest thing to me is to be read. I don't begrudge people using libraries and used bookshops whatsoever. I was poor once and had to rely on these resources; it would be pretty poor form to resent others using them!

Even now, I'll buy a used copy if I want an edition (such as hardback or trade paperback) that's no longer available new. Since I like to support my favourite authors, I prefer to buy books new, but if I discover someone and want their earlier books, well, the fact is that my eyes are getting old even faster than the rest of me (sigh), and if I can get a larger-format edition of an earlier book, I will, simply because reading mass-market paperbacks is getting hard.

Any author disliking libraries and used bookshops really would raise my hackles. :)

aruna
05-06-2010, 11:16 AM
Yup, me too. I like getting my report from PLR. It's good to know they've found my novel in almost every library that's sampled. Getting into print took me a long time and I'm simply happy to be read. Don't get me wrong, I like the royalties but for me that's just icing on the cake.
Same here. I'm happy for books that have already sold to be passed on to used book shops, so that other readers can get at them. Better than staying on someone's shelf at home, don't you think?
As for libraries: they're great! I get PLR, and it's going UP every year -- this year I got 120+, last year 90+. This tells me that people are not only reading my books, but recommending them on, and as the main one is out of print that's wonderful!

Elisabeth Bruce
05-06-2010, 11:45 AM
We're not in a position to have a budget apart for the one for our ISP. Our nearest bookshop is nearly 200kms (each way) and we have only the Library, which we visit once a week.
I get to meet new authors and authors I haven't read, courtesy of our free Library.
I am comfortable they have been paid some remuneration via the Library system and authors I fall in love with are noted for our twice yearly visit to the 'Big Town' and the one bookshop there.
I telephone 'Dave' in advance and he makes sure I get the ones I lust for ready for me to look at and choose. I'm allowed two, and Bob one. So we try and 'pay back' the authors we read for free.
We don't have Christmas or Birthday presents, but we do have Dave and his kindness.

gothicangel
05-06-2010, 11:56 AM
I work [voluntarily] for Oxfam books. It's a lifeline for many people. I know regular customers from the taxi driver who buys several thrillers a week to an old lady who can buy 5 M&B for 1. Neither of them could afford to read that many at retail prices.

I even donate used textbooks from Uni, even though I could sell them on myself.

How great is it as writers that we get to entertain readers, and raise money for some of the most desperately in need people?

mccardey
05-06-2010, 11:57 AM
(As well, in Canada we have the Public Lending Right, which pays authors for the presence of their books in public libraries. It's a way of off-setting that loss of income-per-sale). Yeah, I'm fine with it.

Yes, we have this in Australia as well, and very pleased I am about it - also ELR which does the same kind of job on the books that are held in school libraries. Bless them both :)

Also - I live at my second hand bookshop....

brainstorm77
05-06-2010, 11:57 AM
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172932 <----- same thread, if anyone wants to take a look at some opinions. Mods may want to merge the two.

shaldna
05-06-2010, 11:59 AM
In the Uk writers get royalities when someone checks out a book at a library, so I'm all for them.

As for used books stores, I can only speak from my experience. I have come across some interesting books in them that I wouldn't have picked up at full price. I read them, liked them and went and ordered other (new) books from the same writer.

Becky Black
05-06-2010, 12:41 PM
I agree with Shaldna. If I try a writer I haven't read before by getting a book from a used book store, then if I decide I want to read more of their books I'm probably going to have to head to the normal book store, where I can get their books that are in print even if I have to order them. In the used book shop it's just pot luck.

Also, Gothicangel raises a good point about Oxfam. In the UK a lot of used books are sold through charity shops, so the money goes to good causes. If I do ever get published I'd hope I wouldn't begrudge that! And at least like people say it's getting the book out there and read, which can lead to more sales later of other books, or of that same book if the second hand buyer enjoyed it and tells their friends, or praised it on Goodreads or something similar.

seun
05-06-2010, 01:37 PM
Libraries obviously buy their books from suppliers; the suppliers get them from the publishers and the writers get paid that way.

sheadakota
05-06-2010, 01:55 PM
Libraries obviously buy their books from suppliers; the suppliers get them from the publishers and the writers get paid that way.
Not always- I live in a small rural area- the library inmy town get their books through donations- I donated a copy of my book to them- I've been told there is a two week wait for it :D

As someone mentioned I am thrilled to be just have someone read my work-

Captcha
05-06-2010, 02:56 PM
I work in a library, and we find that most books don't really have a very long life - I'd estimate 5-7 readings is all we expect for a paperback, 10-15 for a hardcover. And that's excluding the casualties to loss and damage.

So, while libraries may give more readings per royalty payment, it's still not exactly unlimited. And we don't just give up on the worn-out books - we buy another copy, or often two, since we have proof that it's being read.

So, still not a goldmine for the author, but not as much of a money-pit as they may seem!

JimmyB27
05-06-2010, 03:20 PM
Now piracy? Grrrrr. But libraries and used bookstores are great. I wouldn't have been able to read half as much as I read as a child if not for them.
From my point of view, as an honest, nice kinda guy, I actually see piracy and used books/CDs etc as more or less the same thing. If I'm not sure of an author/musician, I'll either buy second hand, go to the library or, yes, download a pirate copy. If I like it, I'll buy new next time, if not, I won't.
There's a legal difference in the way I do it, but I don't see any moral difference.

gothicangel
05-06-2010, 03:40 PM
From my point of view, as an honest, nice kinda guy, I actually see piracy and used books/CDs etc as more or less the same thing. If I'm not sure of an author/musician, I'll either buy second hand, go to the library or, yes, download a pirate copy. If I like it, I'll buy new next time, if not, I won't.
There's a legal difference in the way I do it, but I don't see any moral difference.

Raises future locked thread alarm. :D

Dude, you openly admit to pirating other people's creative projects while seeking to publish/make money from your own?

Alpha Echo
05-06-2010, 03:45 PM
Yup, me too. I like getting my report from PLR. It's good to know they've found my novel in almost every library that's sampled. Getting into print took me a long time and I'm simply happy to be read. Don't get me wrong, I like the royalties but for me that's just icing on the cake.

First of all, that's awesome abotu your novel!

Second of all, if I ever get published, I'll feel the same way. The excitment in knowing someone's reading what I wrote...awesome. It's not about the money for me anyway.

shaldna
05-06-2010, 03:49 PM
From my point of view, as an honest, nice kinda guy, I actually see piracy and used books/CDs etc as more or less the same thing. If I'm not sure of an author/musician, I'll either buy second hand, go to the library or, yes, download a pirate copy. If I like it, I'll buy new next time, if not, I won't.
There's a legal difference in the way I do it, but I don't see any moral difference.


Ok, used books are not piracy. You might donate a book, or pass it to a friend. In which case a handful of people, AT MOST, are going to read it. It's not like making copies and passing it around to 10,000 of your closest friends.

JimmyB27
05-06-2010, 04:16 PM
Raises future locked thread alarm. :D

Dude, you openly admit to pirating other people's creative projects while seeking to publish/make money from your own?
Firstly, you're assuming that I seek to make money from my writing. I do, but you didn't know that. :tongue
Secondly, I would be perfectly happy for individuals to download a copy of my book. I believe that most people who do this sort of thing - as individuals - are not crooks, and are doing it for the same reasons I do.


Ok, used books are not piracy. You might donate a book, or pass it to a friend. In which case a handful of people, AT MOST, are going to read it. It's not like making copies and passing it around to 10,000 of your closest friends.
See above. I'm not talking about mass reproduction. I'm talking about one guy who doesn't want to shell out twenty quid for a book only to find it's crap.
It's been shown in various studies that people who download the most are also the people who spend the most. I don't want to alienate the biggest audience, so I'm good with it.

ETA: I know this is never going to be a popular opinion. I don't really expect to persuade anyone - I've tried before, but it's too counter-intuitive for most people to accept. Just think on this, though: Most pirated blu-ray ever? Avatar (http://www.neowin.net/news/avatar-claims-title-of-most-pirated-blu-ray-movie-ever). Highest selling blu-ray ever? Yep, Avatar (http://gizmodo.com/5524842/avatar-blu+ray-breaks-sales-records-by-doubling-them).

gothicangel
05-06-2010, 05:17 PM
You're STEALING.

You want me to produce something that you don't want to pay for? This is why the film and music industries are in serious shit.

JimmyB27
05-06-2010, 05:24 PM
You're STEALING.

You want me to produce something that you don't want to pay for? This is why the film and music industries are in serious shit.
So how do you explain: "Most pirated blu-ray ever? Avatar (http://www.neowin.net/news/avatar-claims-title-of-most-pirated-blu-ray-movie-ever). Highest selling blu-ray ever? Yep, Avatar (http://gizmodo.com/5524842/avatar-blu+ray-breaks-sales-records-by-doubling-them)."


Ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

gothicangel
05-06-2010, 05:44 PM
Maybe it's something to do with a group of people spending too much time on computers opposed to the real world, who have no moral centre?

One of them I ain't, so I'm off to University.

Becky Black
05-06-2010, 05:56 PM
Ok, used books are not piracy. You might donate a book, or pass it to a friend. In which case a handful of people, AT MOST, are going to read it. It's not like making copies and passing it around to 10,000 of your closest friends.

Quite. Also, if I give someone else a book, or donate it to charity, or even sell it on eBay, then the point is I don't have it any more. If I suddenly needed to read it again I'd either have to go buy a new copy or get it from the library. Whole different kettle of fish than if I made a copy of an eBook and sent that to a friend, or put it on the net for people to download. There's really no comparison.

I don't think even actually stealing a print book from a shop compares to the piracy issue. Yes, it's a lost sale, but it's ONE copy. It remains one copy of the book whatever I do with it. On the other hand if I broke into the warehouse and stole a whole pallet's worth of copies and gave them to anyone who asked, that's a closer comparison.

aruna
05-06-2010, 06:19 PM
Aprt from the charity shops, I also love used book shops and like to keep them in busines. For a start, I have a friend who has a used book shop and it's just a passion with him. I know a few years ago it was failing badly, due to the internet. So he went online with it. I don't know how that worked out as I haven't had contact for acouple of years.

Used book shops just have lovely atmospheres. They smell of books. Usually they are more of a hobby than a business. There's one in Eastbourne which must have thousands of books, and thery are all heaped one on top of the other. I love going there ot browse, even if I don't buy every time. But soemtimes I do. A few weeks ago I was surprised to see that my old friend Al working there. It was very sad. Al used to work at Books Etc in the centre of Eastbourne, until Waterstones took it over and turned it into a music and games store. grrrr! AL used to run reading groups and invited me a few times to read to the ladies. It was so upsetting to see that the onlt work he could find was part time in a used bookshop.

I know a tiny used book shop in Chennai, India, which is so full of books piled up you can barely walk through a narrow passage down the middle: the walls on either side are made of books! I love it.
Long live the used book shop, I say.

Ineti
05-06-2010, 06:22 PM
For those of you who have works in print, how do you feel about people getting your books secondhand or from the library?

I'm cool with it. I'd rather have a reader buy a used book and read my story that way than to not buy the book at all. Maybe if they like the story they read, they'll go on to buy a newer book later.

I buy a lot of books at the used bookstore as well, usually out of print stuff. If I like what I'm reading, I make sure I buy their next book new so that they get some royalty love from me. Barring that, I'll check their website to see if they have a 'donate' button or the like. Sometimes I'll drop a little in their coffer with a note thanking them for their efforts.

Smish
05-06-2010, 06:32 PM
So how do you explain: "Most pirated blu-ray ever? Avatar (http://www.neowin.net/news/avatar-claims-title-of-most-pirated-blu-ray-movie-ever). Highest selling blu-ray ever? Yep, Avatar (http://gizmodo.com/5524842/avatar-blu+ray-breaks-sales-records-by-doubling-them)."


Ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

What's your point with this? I'm truly not getting it. The pirated copies should have been PAID for. It's stealing. Do what you want, but call it what it is.

Lots of nice people commit crimes. But they're still criminals.

ChaosTitan
05-06-2010, 06:33 PM
Just fine. :)

People who buy a new author used or get them from the library might very well buy the next one new. And even if they don't they're still reading, and that's a good thing. Sometimes I see it kind of the same way as a doctor or lawyer doing some pro bono work, if that makes sense.

Now piracy? Grrrrr. But libraries and used bookstores are great. I wouldn't have been able to read half as much as I read as a child if not for them.

Ditto all of this. :)


What's your point with this? I'm truly not getting it. The pirated copies should have been PAID for. It's stealing. Do what you want, but call it what it is.

Lots of nice people commit crimes. But they're still criminals.

Ditto this, too.

JimmyB27
05-06-2010, 06:42 PM
What's your point with this? I'm truly not getting it. The pirated copies should have been PAID for. It's stealing. Do what you want, but call it what it is.

Lots of nice people commit crimes. But they're still criminals.
My point is that pirated copy =/= lost sale.

Which of these would you prefer:
A)Person pirates your book, loves it and goes out and buys your entire back catalogue. (Which I've done - not with books, I don't like to read on screen, but with music.)
B)Person never reads any of your stuff.

ChaosTitan
05-06-2010, 06:49 PM
My point is that pirated copy =/= lost sale.

Which of these would you prefer:
A)Person pirates your book, loves it and goes out and buys your entire back catalogue. (Which I've done - not with books, I don't like to read on screen, but with music.)
B)Person never reads any of your stuff.

You forgot to include:

C) Person pirates your book, likes it, pirates your next book, likes it, pirates your next book, ect...

You, personally, might be Person A, but there are many, many Persons C out there and I do not want them as "fans."

Libbie
05-06-2010, 06:58 PM
I have always aspired to be a working writer, since I was a kid. But I've also always supported used book stores in my area, and actually worked at one late last year/early this year.

I felt a little weird working for one at first -- a little more weird than I'd felt just shopping at them. But after my first day, I realized these stores are a real benefit to writers. I lost count of the number of times a customer would come in looking for a particular book, realize we didn't have it in stock, and ask directions to the Barnes & Noble so they could buy it new. It happened many times every day. If people want a book, they're going to go get it NOW, and the author is pretty darn likely to get their royalty.

Every day I also suggested other, newly released books to readers who were buying certain authors or certain genres. They eagerly jotted down my suggestions and I imagine they probably bought those books new, too.

Finally, I can't speak for all used book stores, but the chain I worked for bought about a third of its stock direct from publishers. They were buying books that weren't selling well through the usual outlets. By buying up this "excess stock" from the publishers, our chain was actually ensuring that authors were getting royalties and helping them to earn out their advances -- and making their obscure books available to readers. Next time you're in a Half Price Books store, those books with the barcode stickers are stock purchased directly from the publishers. If that stock doesn't sell, it's donated to schools, libraries, prisons, and community centers rather than being returned to the publisher for a refund. Buy those barcoded books, and you actually ARE helping support your fellow writers. :) (Plus, Half Price Books is by far one of the coolest companies I've ever worked for -- they love and respect all their employees like nobody else. Support them or the terrorists win!!)

firedrake
05-06-2010, 07:01 PM
I'm on a tight budget these days, so the library and second-hand book stores are a lifesaver.

One of the best ones around here is 'Bookmans' in Mesa. My head almost explodes when I go there because there are sooooo many books and they also sell remnants from publishers.

In the UK, if anyone lives in or near Wantage, there's this absolutely brilliant used bookstore, tucked away in a little arcade off the marketplace. I've spent hours and hours in there.

It's a shame that they don't have the same royalty system for libraries here in the US.

JimmyB27
05-06-2010, 07:30 PM
You forgot to include:

C) Person pirates your book, likes it, pirates your next book, likes it, pirates your next book, ect...

You, personally, might be Person A, but there are many, many Persons C out there and I do not want them as "fans."
I know this is music, but there's no reason the trend shouldn't carry over to other media. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8337887.stm

Also, I reckon it's likely to be a complete non-issue with books (for a while, at least). Most people (like me), don't like reading on-screen, and e-readers are still something of a niche technology.

ChaosTitan
05-06-2010, 07:38 PM
Also, I reckon it's likely to be a complete non-issue with books (for a while, at least). Most people (like me), don't like reading on-screen, and e-readers are still something of a niche technology.

With the Nook, the Kindle, the Sony Reader, and the iPad, not to mention all of the new phones with e-reader technology, I'd say e-readers in general are stepping far outside of being a niche technology. I don't see them taking over printed books in the near future, but they are becoming more mainstream every year.

benbradley
05-06-2010, 07:43 PM
From my point of view, as an honest, nice kinda guy, I actually see piracy and used books/CDs etc as more or less the same thing. If I'm not sure of an author/musician, I'll either buy second hand, go to the library or, yes, download a pirate copy. If I like it, I'll buy new next time, if not, I won't.
There's a legal difference in the way I do it, but I don't see any moral difference.
When you buy a used book, the royalties for that copy have already been paid for.

When you download, you GENERATE A NEW COPY on your computer, e-reader or audio player. If it's from a legitimate online seller such as iTunes or Amazon you have to PAY for the download, and the author gets the royalty for the copy you have.

Firstly, you're assuming that I seek to make money from my writing. I do, but you didn't know that. :tongue
Secondly, I would be perfectly happy for individuals to download a copy of my book.
Great. You're free to have some form of a Creative Commons or similar license on your work where others can legally copy it without paying royalties.

Most writers want to get paid for their works, but there's a long history of giving away work. Here's one example:
http://www.testament.org/testament/100thmonkey.html

I believe that most people who do this sort of thing - as individuals - are not crooks, and are doing it for the same reasons I do.
Technically and legally they ARE crooks, regardless of the motive.

See above. I'm not talking about mass reproduction. I'm talking about one guy who doesn't want to shell out twenty quid for a book only to find it's crap.
It's been shown in various studies that people who download the most are also the people who spend the most. I don't want to alienate the biggest audience, so I'm good with it.

ETA: I know this is never going to be a popular opinion. I don't really expect to persuade anyone - I've tried before, but it's too counter-intuitive for most people to accept. Just think on this, though: Most pirated blu-ray ever? Avatar (http://www.neowin.net/news/avatar-claims-title-of-most-pirated-blu-ray-movie-ever). Highest selling blu-ray ever? Yep, Avatar (http://gizmodo.com/5524842/avatar-blu+ray-breaks-sales-records-by-doubling-them).
All I can suggest is that you get the law changed. Make an exception to copyright so that the purchaser of a copy can make copies for friends.

Perhaps the one thing that keeps many people from getting pirated copies is that it IS illegal. If such a thing as "friend piracy" were to be made legal, everyone would be online "friends" and sales will drop down to near zero.

aruna
05-06-2010, 08:07 PM
Perhaps the one thing that keeps many people from getting pirated copies is that it IS illegal. If such a thing as "friend piracy" were to be made legal, everyone would be online "friends" and sales will drop down to near zero.

And Amen to that.

JimmyB27
05-06-2010, 08:07 PM
I'm not arguing that it's legal, or even that it should be legal. My argument only applies to small time, casual downloaders and can be summed up as 'who cares?'. I think, at worst it has no impact on sales and at best, a slightly positive one.
It's a bit like caring about the kid who runs across your drive to retrieve his football. Technically he's trespassing, but do you really care all that much?

willietheshakes
05-06-2010, 08:11 PM
I'm not arguing that it's legal, or even that it should be legal. My argument only applies to small time, casual downloaders and can be summed up as 'who cares?'. I think, at worst it has no impact on sales and at best, a slightly positive one.
It's a bit like caring about the kid who runs across your drive to retrieve his football. Technically he's trespassing, but do you really care all that much?

It might be a bit like that, but it's almost entirely UNlike that.

KathleenD
05-07-2010, 12:24 AM
On the topic of libraries: There are a hell of a lot of libraries. If each of them buys a book of mine, and in each library one single person borrows the book and likes it so much that he must buy one for himself? Oy, I should be so lucky.

On the topic of downloads: The people who pirated Avatar did not go out and buy a legit copy. Why should they bother? They already have a copy, and without all the FBI warnings and coming soon's and unskippable menus. You cannot possibly be trying to argue that the pirates and the legitimate buyers are significantly overlapping groups... can you?

Also, e-reading may be a niche now, compared to publishing as a whole, but I am publishing in a (rapidly expanding) niche that is almost entirely digital. Every pirated copy of my book is one less counted sale, and each uncounted sale is that much more of a chance that I won't get a second contract. On such rocks careers have foundered.

Jamesaritchie
05-07-2010, 12:34 AM
I work in a library, and we find that most books don't really have a very long life - I'd estimate 5-7 readings is all we expect for a paperback, 10-15 for a hardcover. And that's excluding the casualties to loss and damage.

So, while libraries may give more readings per royalty payment, it's still not exactly unlimited. And we don't just give up on the worn-out books - we buy another copy, or often two, since we have proof that it's being read.

So, still not a goldmine for the author, but not as much of a money-pit as they may seem!

Ten to fifteen readings for a hardcover? You need to change libraries, or something. Our library expects twenty years from a hardcover, and almost always gets it.

Mystic Blossom
05-07-2010, 01:24 AM
No problems here. The book's already been paid for and (presumably), I've already received royalties for it. I use libraries and used book stores all the time. It'd be ridiculously hypocritical for me to say I didn't approve of them because I wouldn't get paid.

veinglory
05-07-2010, 01:27 AM
I think libraries and thrift stores are a contrabution to the public good. Although I prefer the UK system where the government gives authors some compensation for library lending.

Smish
05-07-2010, 01:57 AM
My point is that pirated copy =/= lost sale.

Which of these would you prefer:
A)Person pirates your book, loves it and goes out and buys your entire back catalogue. (Which I've done - not with books, I don't like to read on screen, but with music.)
B)Person never reads any of your stuff.

Does your argument also apply to people who shoplift? "Hmmm. This book is $10 and I'm not sure I'll like it. Guess I'll just pocket it, read it, and find out for free."

Get my point?

And your question isn't worth answering. The majority of piraters continue to pirate, without ever paying for anything.

I'm completely in favor of used books, though. But the author has already been paid for that copy of the book, provided it wasn't shoplifted to begin with.

juniper
05-07-2010, 03:02 AM
For an author's royalty, is one sale as valuable as the next?

I mean, do you get paid a different amount for a sale to a library or a school than to a standard retailer?

Wow, there's a lot I don't know about this stuff. I like the UK and Canadian systems of paying authors on the amount of library check outs. I wonder why that's never been used here in USA?

Marian Perera
05-07-2010, 03:10 AM
I'm on a tight budget so I rarely buy new books (and when I do, there's a long list, beginning with a book that I've wanted for two years now). So I'd be fine with people finding my work in used bookstores and libraries. Libraries especially - pimp it out, make it available to as many clients as you can!

Ahem. :e2paperba

As long as I get as much royalties as possible, of course. I gotta eat.

Captcha
05-07-2010, 05:11 AM
Ten to fifteen readings for a hardcover? You need to change libraries, or something. Our library expects twenty years from a hardcover, and almost always gets it.


Well, how many readings a year is that? Books on a shelf don't really wear out...what movie has that line..."It's not the years, sweetheart, it's the mileage."

It might also depend on the library's standards for books - we try to keep them looking reasonably new - not sparkling, but if they have broken spines, stained or loose pages, etc. - out they go! Most of our readers pick their books by browsing, rather than searching, and browsers are picking the books by their covers. The nasty-looking books don't get signed out, so we buy new ones.

veinglory
05-07-2010, 06:06 AM
I think libraries and used books stores created a hunger for books in me. Now I have money I buy hardbarks and TPBs and ironically have no time to read them. But free downloads are not just being used by kids, pensioners and underpaid people who want books, they are being mooched off by a culture of freeloaders who justify their theft as counter-culture cool. I ain't buy'n it.

MaryMumsy
05-07-2010, 06:54 AM
Well, how many readings a year is that? Books on a shelf don't really wear out...what movie has that line..."It's not the years, sweetheart, it's the mileage."

That's from Raiders of the Lost Ark. Indy speaking to Marian. I have heard that HF ad-libbed the line.

I patronize both the library and used book stores. Most of my used purchases come from a huge charity sale held once a year here. But I also spend a significant amount each year on new books, so I'm doing my part to generate royalties.

MM

Captcha
05-07-2010, 07:48 AM
That's from Raiders of the Lost Ark. Indy speaking to Marian. I have heard that HF ad-libbed the line.
MM

Oh, yeah, that's right! Now that you've jogged the memory, I can totally see the scene. Damn, Harrison Ford - he made beat-up and rumpled look pretty damn good!

SPMiller
05-07-2010, 08:35 AM
I was in a used bookstore just today and saw lots and lots of copies of books from the two big romance epubs. Either the books really suck, or they have deeper market penetration than I thought.

aruna
05-07-2010, 11:22 AM
On the topic of libraries: There are a hell of a lot of libraries. If each of them buys a book of mine, and in each library one single person borrows the book and likes it so much that he must buy one for himself? Oy, I should be so lucky.

.

Or buys them as gifts for friends and family, or recommends them on, etc etc etc. There are always waiting lists for the best books, so if someone is really impatient to read one of my books recommended by someone else they'd have to buy it. Which is only good.

Becky Black
05-07-2010, 12:55 PM
I was in a used bookstore just today and saw lots and lots of copies of books from the two big romance epubs. Either the books really suck, or they have deeper market penetration than I thought.

Romance readers - especially category - read a lot and there's only so many books most people can keep in their house, so the ones that aren't "keepers" tend to get cleared out in batches.

JimmyB27
05-07-2010, 01:00 PM
And your question isn't worth answering. The majority of piraters continue to pirate, without ever paying for anything.

Link, or it didn't happen.

brainstorm77
05-07-2010, 01:03 PM
Romance readers - especially category - read a lot and there's only so many books most people can keep in their house, so the ones that aren't "keepers" tend to get cleared out in batches.

I do this. I cart them off to goodwill.

KathleenD
05-07-2010, 05:38 PM
Oh, yeah, that's right! Now that you've jogged the memory, I can totally see the scene. Damn, Harrison Ford - he made beat-up and rumpled look pretty damn good!

Makes. Present tense. Rawr.

JimmyB27
05-08-2010, 02:40 AM
Does your argument also apply to people who shoplift? "Hmmm. This book is $10 and I'm not sure I'll like it. Guess I'll just pocket it, read it, and find out for free."

Get my point?

And your question isn't worth answering. The majority of piraters continue to pirate, without ever paying for anything.

I'm completely in favor of used books, though. But the author has already been paid for that copy of the book, provided it wasn't shoplifted to begin with.
Alright, I'll answer your question.

You know damn well that's not the same. Quit with the straw men. Now. Link, or it didn't happen.

(ETA: You've seen my research, I provided a link backing up my claim).

mscelina
05-08-2010, 03:23 AM
Okay, buckle up kids. I haven't used multi-quote since I self-banned from P&CE and this topic makes me feel feisty.


From my point of view, as an honest, nice kinda guy, I actually see piracy and used books/CDs etc as more or less the same thing. If I'm not sure of an author/musician, I'll either buy second hand, go to the library or, yes, download a pirate copy. If I like it, I'll buy new next time, if not, I won't.
There's a legal difference in the way I do it, but I don't see any moral difference.

That's good. You won't mind, then, if I run a long electrical cord to your outdoor outlets, siphon gasoline from your car, and pilfer food from your pantry? Because every time you steal someone else's intellectual property (ie--downloading a pirated copy is theft both for the original pirate and for the scumbag who downloaded from the aforesaid pirate) that's what you're taking--their utlities, transportation and food.

Oh...those are nice sneakers too. Obviously, you don't mind if I take those?


Ok, used books are not piracy. You might donate a book, or pass it to a friend. In which case a handful of people, AT MOST, are going to read it. It's not like making copies and passing it around to 10,000 of your closest friends.

The royalties on print books have been paid. The royalties on e-books are supposed to occur with every download. So, unless you're running an illegal print shop in the backyard, you're right--it's nowhere close to being the same.


So how do you explain: "Most pirated blu-ray ever? Avatar (http://www.neowin.net/news/avatar-claims-title-of-most-pirated-blu-ray-movie-ever). Highest selling blu-ray ever? Yep, Avatar (http://gizmodo.com/5524842/avatar-blu+ray-breaks-sales-records-by-doubling-them)."


Ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

You probably feel like that because most people don't like to talk to admitted IP thieves about their self-confessed IP thievery.


What's your point with this? I'm truly not getting it. The pirated copies should have been PAID for. It's stealing. Do what you want, but call it what it is.

Lots of nice people commit crimes. But they're still criminals.

Yep. Even though OJ Simpson held up someone at gunpoint for his own memorabilia, he still went to jail. Why, you may ask? Because it's still a CRIME.

My point is that pirated copy =/= lost sale.

Which of these would you prefer:
A)Person pirates your book, loves it and goes out and buys your entire back catalogue. (Which I've done - not with books, I don't like to read on screen, but with music.)
B)Person never reads any of your stuff.

Okay, so you don't like to read onscreen so there's no chance you'll buy anyone's e-book. But, earlier you said this:


If I'm not sure of an author/musician, I'll either buy second hand, go to the library or, yes, download a pirate copy.

So you're the worst kind of IP thief--someone who downloads knowing full and damn well he'll never send any money that author's way. Gotcha. Good to know.


I know this is music, but there's no reason the trend shouldn't carry over to other media. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8337887.stm

Also, I reckon it's likely to be a complete non-issue with books (for a while, at least). Most people (like me), don't like reading on-screen, and e-readers are still something of a niche technology.

Uh huh. Not many people agree with you. For example:


“It’s a game of Whac-a-Mole,” said Russell Davis, an author and president of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, a trade association that helps authors pursue digital pirates. “You knock one down and five more spring up.”

http://www.teleread.org/2009/05/12/e-book-piracy-keeping-pace-with-e-book-popularity/



With the Nook, the Kindle, the Sony Reader, and the iPad, not to mention all of the new phones with e-reader technology, I'd say e-readers in general are stepping far outside of being a niche technology. I don't see them taking over printed books in the near future, but they are becoming more mainstream every year.

Agreed. There is a prototype program underway now (and I know this because I'm part of it) to encourage independent bookstores to sell onsite downloads of books when a person buys their new e-reader. As the e-reader drops in price, it's getting more and more mainstream every month. My rising sales (despite the efforts of e-pirates and the self-justificiation of other theives) are reflecting that. And let's not forget the iphone apps either. That's turning into a surprising new market, at least from my POV.


I'm not arguing that it's legal, or even that it should be legal. My argument only applies to small time, casual downloaders and can be summed up as 'who cares?'. I think, at worst it has no impact on sales and at best, a slightly positive one.
It's a bit like caring about the kid who runs across your drive to retrieve his football. Technically he's trespassing, but do you really care all that much?

Yeah.n Wow. That's exactly what the problem is.

*rolls eyes*



A review of e-books currently available for illicit download confirms that e-book piracy is no longer dominated by technical how-to e-books but includes best-selling authors Janet Evanovich, John Grisham, and James Patterson. PCWorld found that one-third of Publishers Weekly's 2009 top 15 best-selling fiction books (http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6645568.html) were available for illicit download through a growing variety of book-swapping sites, file-sharing services, and peer-to-peer networks.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/122409-e-book-piracy-the-publishing-industrys.html


I think libraries and used books stores created a hunger for books in me. Now I have money I buy hardbarks and TPBs and ironically have no time to read them. But free downloads are not just being used by kids, pensioners and underpaid people who want books, they are being mooched off by a culture of freeloaders who justify their theft as counter-culture cool. I ain't buy'n it.

Bingo. But remember--it's not "really" theft according to the theives.


Link, or it didn't happen.

Oh wow. Really? Well, if you can stretch out an assumption without basis like this one:
I think, at worst it has no impact on sales and at best, a slightly positive one.

but someone else has to link or it doesn't happen?

Okay, let's give this a whirl.

Take a look at epirate.net. Yeah--really casual, isn't it? They're so blase' about their theivery, they don't even try to pawn it off as a peer network.

Ohh...wait--"no impact on sales" right? Let's look at this:


Copyright theft has contributed to a 30% drop in music revenues over the past six years and the bill’s framers want to nip it in the bud before it does the same to books.
http://ereads.com/2010/02/brits-fiddle-while-e-pirates-dance-on.html

Or, from the same article, this:


“Those who claim file-sharing is a blow against big business that does not harm small, independent players, should think again,” she says citing plummeting music sales in nations lax on piracy. “Ah but books are different, you might think. Well, no. A study released last month by Attributor, whose FairShare Guardian service monitors the internet for pirated content, provided startling data on the impact of file-sharing on books. It estimated that publishers were losing as much as $3bn to online book piracy. You didn’t misread that: it said three BILLION dollars, more than the total value of the UK book market. As more readers move to digital formats, that figure will only get worse.”

Oh, but back to your point. Link or it didn't happen (which evidently doesn't apply to you), right?

Well here:

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/122409-e-book-piracy-the-publishing-industrys.html?page=1


Aiken says that while he is concerned about the growth in the availability of e-book titles on the Internet, he is not convinced that the number of people who are actually downloading the digital files is increasing as rapidly.
Compared with music piracy, illicit e-books are not nearly as widespread or as easy to acquire. Pirates must be determined to track down specific e-book titles. Pirated e-book files (usually available as PDFs) can sometimes be poorly reproduced, and are sometimes made up of scanned page images--not text.

You read that, right? Congratulations! It's a link. And it's fairly accurate--you do have to target specific e-books in order to pirate them. You can't just grab them wholesale once upon a time. E pirates are becoming more sophisticated in the techniques they use to nab e-books.

Have another link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/04/business/04digi.html?_r=3&partner=rss&emc=rss


A report earlier this year by the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry, based on multiple studies in 16 countries covering three years, estimated that 95 percent of music downloads “are unauthorized, with no payment to artists and producers.”

And how about another?

http://www.teleread.org/2009/09/25/90-percent-of-macmillan-front-list-pirated-so-much-for-the-protection-of-drm/



“We are at the stage of the music industry just before file-sharing,” PW (http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6698707.html) quotes him about the book-publishing industry.
He says pirates are carrying 90 percent of Macmillan’s front list titles.


Enough links yet or do you need more in order to be convinced that it 'really happened?'


Alright, I'll answer your question.

You know damn well that's not the same. Quit with the straw men. Now. Link, or it didn't happen.

(ETA: You've seen my research, I provided a link backing up my claim).

Just as an FYI--an article based upon an online poll--as in the link you provided--does not constitute empirical evidence.

Then again, take a look at this:



For example, the Stats from RadioHead’s online ‘pay what you like for our new album’ experiment i.e.
(according to Compete) 62% of people downloaded the Radiohead album for free. Only 38% paid - In the US an average of $8 and outside of the US an average of $4.62.
That translates to an average of $3.20 per album download in the US, and $1.76 per album download outside the US.

http://ireaderreview.com/2009/10/05/kindle-piracy-and-ebooks/

Didn't lose any money, eh? That looks like a hell of a lot of money to me. When's the last time YOU could buy a brand new CD for that price?

Unless, of course, you were stealing it either physically or electronically.

That's a loss of what--ten bucks a CD? Sorry, pal--that is a shit ton of money lost.


Look, you're never going to come out and straight up admit that you're wrong. You've already rationalized your continued thefts as "not that big of a deal." Hell, you're probably just saying all this crap just to stir shit up. That's all fine and good. But...

You could do yourself a favor and read this last article I linked to. *shrug* You may not admit you're wrong here, but maybe at least you'll be able to admit you're wrong to yourself.

There was no difference in my household if my kids stole a piece of gum from the store or a piece of my jewelry and pawned it. They got punished just the same, because I taught them that STEALING, NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO JUSTIFY IT, IS WRONG. And if you try to justify it? Well, you're stealing on the same level as carjackers and burglars as far as I'm concerned.

Congratulations.

thothguard51
05-08-2010, 03:53 AM
Used book stores for me are a great way to catch up on authors you love, but some of their work is no longer in print or are hard to find. It's also a great way to get books you want to collect but can't find in print.

Its also a great way for me to unload paperbacks I don't have the room for. I bring in a box full, get a store credit and then shop for a few new books to delve into.

I don't see where used book stores harm an author unless they are knowingly selling pirated works of authors, musician, and movies.

djf881
05-08-2010, 04:18 AM
If your book gets stocked in libraries that's potentially 1200 to 1500 sales right there that won't be returned.

That's the difference between getting published and not getting published for lots of authors. Libraries are good for publishing.

Amazon's used book business, maybe not so much. But books come with right of first sale, and e-books that can't be transferred are vulnerable to piracy.

Wordwrestler
05-08-2010, 11:06 AM
I don't have a lot of extra money, especially to spend on myself. Recently I read The Hunger Games and Elizabeth Bunce's Curse Dark as Gold, both of which I got from the library. I loved them, so when a family member's birthday came around, I chose to spend the money I'd budgeted for the occasion on buying her those books.

If I couldn't test out books for free, I'd never feel confident giving them as gifts. I would have bought my family member something else I knew she'd enjoy, not books that might not be her thing or might just be plain bad.

Also, what would nonfiction authors do without libraries? Seriously! As a homeschooling parent, I can tell you my family and others like us check out dozens of nonfiction titles for our kids every month. If it weren't for the library, I'd just buy a few textbooks and maybe a biography here and there if we could manage it. We DEVOUR library books. That has to help authors.

JimmyB27
05-08-2010, 08:25 PM
That's good. You won't mind, then, if I run a long electrical cord to your outdoor outlets, siphon gasoline from your car, and pilfer food from your pantry? Because every time you steal someone else's intellectual property (ie--downloading a pirated copy is theft both for the original pirate and for the scumbag who downloaded from the aforesaid pirate) that's what you're taking--their utlities, transportation and food.

Oh...those are nice sneakers too. Obviously, you don't mind if I take those?
That's not the same at all. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to say to you.


You probably feel like that because most people don't like to talk to admitted IP thieves about their self-confessed IP thievery.
I'm not sure I see your point here.

Yep. Even though OJ Simpson held up someone at gunpoint for his own memorabilia, he still went to jail. Why, you may ask? Because it's still a CRIME.
Again, if you can't see the difference here, it's beyond me to explain it to you.


So you're the worst kind of IP thief--someone who downloads knowing full and damn well he'll never send any money that author's way. Gotcha. Good to know.
No, I'm someone who downloads stuff and then, if I like it, goes out and buys it. I downloaded the first episode of Deadwood, loved it, bought all three series' on DVD. Copied a CD from my friend, listened to it a few times, went out and bought two albums by the same artist - I now own four or five. Watched a few videos of another artist on YouTube and promptly ordered all of his albums online.
See a pattern here? I'm struggling to see how this is bad for any of these artists.


Uh huh. Not many people agree with you. For example:



http://www.teleread.org/2009/05/12/e-book-piracy-keeping-pace-with-e-book-popularity/

Not relevant to what I'm arguing(bolded, because otherwise you'll ignore it), but still flying in the face of your rabid "ALL DOWNLOADERS ARE TEH EVUHL!!!1!!" stance:
"Publishers need to stop attacking the symptom of piracy, and focus their attention on the disease of the anti-consumer practices that are making legitimate e-books difficult or impossible to obtain. Until they can pay more than lip service to the idea of rational pricing and availability, disgruntled would-be customers will get what they want however they can."


Yeah.n Wow. That's exactly what the problem is.

*rolls eyes*
Er...what?


Oh wow. Really? Well, if you can stretch out an assumption without basis like this one:

but someone else has to link or it doesn't happen?
Third time lucky: "Most pirated blu-ray ever? Avatar (http://www.neowin.net/news/avatar-claims-title-of-most-pirated-blu-ray-movie-ever). Highest selling blu-ray ever? Yep, Avatar (http://gizmodo.com/5524842/avatar-blu+ray-breaks-sales-records-by-doubling-them)."


Ohh...wait--"no impact on sales" right? Let's look at this:


http://ereads.com/2010/02/brits-fiddle-while-e-pirates-dance-on.html


Oh god. The digital economy bill is a horrific piece of legislature whichever way you look at it. Hurried through parliament because Labour knew they weren't likely to have an outright win at the election (and oh how I wish our voters had been more decisive in getting rid of Big Broth...er, Gordon Brown and his cronies).
The Bill is a bit like it would be if all US cops were armed with bazookas instead of pistols. They'd be more likely to hit the criminals, and who cares about a bit of collateral damage here and there?
"Copyright theft has contributed to a 30% drop in music revenues over the past six years and the bill’s framers want to nip it in the bud before it does the same to books. "
In the middle of a recession, and they decide the drop in revenue on a luxury product is due to pirates? Hmmm, sure..
"It estimated that publishers were losing as much as $3bn to online book piracy."
Those sorts of numbers are just nonsense - even Uncle Sam has owned up to that: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus.ars
They make the entirely unfounded assumptions that not only would the downloader have bought the music had he not been able to download, and also that he didn't buy it later (like me).

A report earlier this year by the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry, based on multiple studies in 16 countries covering three years, estimated that 95 percent of music downloads “are unauthorized, with no payment to artists and producers.”
Pretty much says nothing about anything. I never download legally, I much prefer to buy physical CDs/DVDs/books.



And how about another?

http://www.teleread.org/2009/09/25/90-percent-of-macmillan-front-list-pirated-so-much-for-the-protection-of-drm/
"“We are at the stage of the music industry just before file-sharing,” PW (http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6698707.html) quotes him about the book-publishing industry.
He says pirates are carrying 90 percent of Macmillan’s front list titles. "
Still doesn't really tell you anything about how much is being lost.


Didn't lose any money, eh? That looks like a hell of a lot of money to me. When's the last time YOU could buy a brand new CD for that price?

Unless, of course, you were stealing it either physically or electronically.

That's a loss of what--ten bucks a CD? Sorry, pal--that is a shit ton of money lost.
http://musicandculture.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-much-did-radiohead-make-on-in.html
"In spite of Radiohead letting fans pay whatever they like for a CD download of their latest release 'In Rainbows', the Oxford-based band has made quite a mint off the album. While fans only paid about half of what new CDs cost in stores, Radiohead has made nearly $10 million dollars (about 4.8 million) in less than a week. "
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/radiohead_make_10_million_from_in_rainbows.html
"Even after the pay-what-you-want deluge of downloading, the physical CD still sold 1.75 million copies worldwide, according to the publisher, which puts them alongside Lil' Wayne in proving that making music free digitally doesn't necessarily impede sales."
Yeah, looks like they took a real beating over that. You've made that false assumption again, that every single download is a lost sale.


Look, you're never going to come out and straight up admit that you're wrong.
Well, no. Because I'm not. ;)


You could do yourself a favor and read this last article I linked to. *shrug* You may not admit you're wrong here, but maybe at least you'll be able to admit you're wrong to yourself.
I did read the article, and they completely miss the kind of thing I'm talking about. They mention 'Rationalisers', which group I guess I would fall into, but I don't fit any of their descriptions.

I think you guys have painted a picture of me in your minds as this evil, IP stealing ogre, who's Internet bandwidth is straining at the seams with P2P downloaded films and music. That's not what I'm talking about. If I hear a song I like the sound of, or if a friend recommends someone, I might go listen to a few tracks on Youtube, or maybe download an album. If I like it, I will go and buy it (cue the scoffed "yeah right"s from you guys).


There was no difference in my household if my kids stole a piece of gum from the store or a piece of my jewelry and pawned it. They got punished just the same, because I taught them that STEALING, NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO JUSTIFY IT, IS WRONG.
Stealing is *always* wrong? What about the old chestnut of a mother stealing to feed her child because she has no other choice? And, because I just *know* you're going to make this leap, no I am not comparing myself to a mother with a starving child. I'm just saying things are never so black and white.

And if you try to justify it? Well, you're stealing on the same level as carjackers and burglars as far as I'm concerned.

Congratulations.
Well, you're entitled to your opinions of course. Even the wrong ones.


To stray slightly back on to topic for a moment, legally speaking, yes, there's a big difference between what I'm talking about and using a library or a used bookshop, but morally? I don't think so (clearly).
I use a library in exactly the same way as I do YouTube or downloading. If I get an author recommended, I'll give them a whirl from the library and if I like them, go out and buy their books next time. Only difference? The legality. And I happen to believe that the law should be driven by morals, not the other way around.

Terie
05-08-2010, 08:31 PM
Can I point out that this thread is about used bookshops and libraries, and ask that the piracy stuff be moved to its own thread? The first person to bring piracy up knew it would stir up debate that's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Wordwrestler
05-08-2010, 08:58 PM
Can I point out that this thread is about used bookshops and libraries, and ask that the piracy stuff be moved to its own thread? The first person to bring piracy up knew it would stir up debate that's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Yeah, my finger's getting tired scrolling past all that stuff.

gothicangel
05-08-2010, 11:46 PM
Yeah, my finger's getting tired scrolling past all that stuff.

That's why God invented the ignore button. :D

JimmyB27
05-08-2010, 11:59 PM
Yeah, ok. My bad. You can hate me a bit more if you want - I don't have a problem with thread derails either. ;)

Wordwrestler
05-09-2010, 10:18 AM
That's why God invented the ignore button. :D

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten about that!