Is this realistic? (This may be better served in Sandbox)

IReidandWrite · May 3, 2010

First off, my MC is bisexual but leaning toward les. She is also victim of some sort of mental illness (which I haven't narrowed down yet), to where she has very little impulse control. (Add that to the fact that she's 15-16 and you get a recipe for a disaster, I imagine)

Currently I have her doing such benign things as kissing the girl's cheek, then seguing into more.....harsh...events (because the other girl is at first unwilling. She eventually agrees, partially out of curiosity, partially out of bullying, though this is the whole 'is this realistic' thing). This would include the MC covering the girl's mouth while holding her gently to a wall (to hold her attention and keep her from calling out.

Also, because I'm slightly scared to Google search, although I probably shouldn't be if I'm writing it, how exactly would two girls go at it?

NOTE: I do think that she's unneccessarily violent, but that's part of her character thing. I do NOT think that this is reflexive of me at all, as I have severely different ideas and ways of it happening.

Captcha · May 3, 2010

What's the 'is it realistic' part? That a teenager struggling with her sexuality AND a mental illness would behave inappropriately? Sure.

I'm a little wary of the set-up you're giving, though. What genre is this meant to be? Is it going to be made clear that the MC is committing sexual assault? Is the other girl presented as a victim and angry/resentful of the abuse, or does she end up 'falling in love' with her abuser? (blech, if that happens, unless you present it very clearly as an unhealthy relationship).

IReidandWrite · May 3, 2010

Kate_Sherwood said:
What's the 'is it realistic' part? That a teenager struggling with her sexuality AND a mental illness would behave inappropriately? Sure.

I'm a little wary of the set-up you're giving, though. What genre is this meant to be? Is it going to be made clear that the MC is committing sexual assault? Is the other girl presented as a victim and angry/resentful of the abuse, or does she end up 'falling in love' with her abuser? (blech, if that happens, unless you present it very clearly as an unhealthy relationship).

I'm still working out the details myself of their relationship. Sometime after she breaks it off with this girl (who, to borrow a Trope, more or less gets put on a bus), she meets another girl and stays with her, and is actually nice.

I think the MC isn't abusive to be abusive, but is moreso because she's socially awkward.

She eventually becomes nicer, I think at the time the scene occurs she's just so desperate to get it, she'll do anything.

Captcha · May 3, 2010

No. "Socially awkward" and "so desperate to get it, she'll do anything" don't make it anywhere NEAR okay for your MC to hold a hand over someone's mouth to keep her from calling for help and then bully her into sex. If you want your character to be at all sympathetic, I think you need to either tone down her actions there or have her do some major soul-searching and be wracked with guilt about what she did.

Again, I'm not sure of your genre, but if you're writing for an audience that has any mature women in it, I think you're going to run into trouble if you write the story the way you've summarized it here. I mean, hopefully you'll have trouble even if there are only men and/or girls in your audience, because the character's behaviour is right over the line. I know there's a sort of 'if he loves her it's okay' trope that some high school girls fall into, but really, it ISN'T okay, and that doesn't change just because the abuser is female.

IReidandWrite · May 3, 2010

Bah, sorry, thought I put it in there. It's sci-fi.

I guess I could have her wracked with guilt, that's always fun to play with.

*imagines her character with a combover haircut and ear gauges*

Okay, maybe not that wracked.

Unimportant · May 3, 2010

If you're planning on publishing this with any of the lesbian presses (Regal Crest, Bold Strokes, Bella, Intaglio, etc) be aware that they will not touch a book in which anyone under 18 has sex, even off-stage.

For lack of impulse control, I'd suggest bipolar.

If she's 15 and experimenting, would *she* know how two girls do it?

(As for how two girls do it -- there's no single answer, just as there's not only one way that straight people have sex. PM me if you want and I can give you some suggestions.)

IReidandWrite · May 3, 2010

Unimportant said:
If you're planning on publishing this with any of the lesbian presses (Regal Crest, Bold Strokes, Bella, Intaglio, etc) be aware that they will not touch a book in which anyone under 18 has sex, even off-stage.

For lack of impulse control, I'd suggest bipolar.

If she's 15 and experimenting, would *she* know how two girls do it?

(As for how two girls do it -- there's no single answer, just as there's not only one way that straight people have sex. PM me if you want and I can give you some suggestions.)

The lesbianism is actually a small part of the book, and secondary to the plot. Basically, I wanted romance in the book. I have an almost-exclusively female cast. So I thought to myself "well there's no breathing room for any more people, so why not?"

Mara · May 3, 2010

Um, this sounds a bit problematic if not handled well, because basically it sounds like she's raping this girl and that's not something that creates a lot of reader empathy. But it's one of those things where the context is important, so I'm not automatically saying it's bad, just that it sounds like it could be a little iffy if you're not careful.

Project nachonaco said:
Also, because I'm slightly scared to Google search, although I probably shouldn't be if I'm writing it, how exactly would two girls go at it?

I don't know if I'm allowed to discuss something that explicit here. I could link to a webcomic that explains it and some other things fairly well, but it's a bit graphic (despite not being intended for porn.) Unless a mod okays it, I'm not posting the link. But you could PM me if you really want it.

The only two things I'll say here are:

1) It's pretty much common sense. Embracing, kissing, stimulation of certain pleasure centers, etc. There may or may not be toys involved.

2) Girl-on-girl porn for straight guys is almost never remotely realistic, so it's probably best that you avoided a random internet search, since that's what tends to come up.

Kitty Pryde · May 3, 2010

Project nachonaco said:
First off, my MC is bisexual but leaning toward les. She is also victim of some sort of mental illness (which I haven't narrowed down yet), to where she has very little impulse control. (Add that to the fact that she's 15-16 and you get a recipe for a disaster, I imagine)

Currently I have her doing such benign things as kissing the girl's cheek, then seguing into more.....harsh...events (because the other girl is at first unwilling. She eventually agrees, partially out of curiosity, partially out of bullying, though this is the whole 'is this realistic' thing). This would include the MC covering the girl's mouth while holding her gently to a wall (to hold her attention and keep her from calling out.

Also, because I'm slightly scared to Google search, although I probably shouldn't be if I'm writing it, how exactly would two girls go at it?

NOTE: I do think that she's unneccessarily violent, but that's part of her character thing. I do NOT think that this is reflexive of me at all, as I have severely different ideas and ways of it happening.

1. It sounds like rape. Just so you know. And thusly it does not sound like romance. Also the market may be limited for sci-fi with underage lesbian rape scenes.

2. If you "don't know how two girls go at it", it will show. I'm inclined to say don't try it because your total lack of knowledge will show. But if you gotta, go find "The Whole Lesbian Sex Book". Any bookstore should have it. It's pretty, um, comprehensive, and not too yucky.

thothguard51 · May 3, 2010

I have to agree with the whole age thing and I think publishers shy away from this type of stuff because they do not want to be accused of producing kiddie porn. Even if its only one scene. You also have to remember that while the age of consent varies from state to state and country to country, most civilized societies consider anything under 18 a no-no.

This is not to say there is no sex in SF&F, Romance, or YA, its just that from the sounds of it, its just another form of date rape. I just think it will all depend on if you get too detailed with the scene and what happens afterwards.

I like the bipolar suggestion as it could explain her disturbing behavior and her on and off attitude toward her own sexuality.

BenPanced · May 3, 2010

Project nachonaco said:
First off, my MC is bisexual but leaning toward les. She is also victim of some sort of mental illness (which I haven't narrowed down yet), to where she has very little impulse control. (Add that to the fact that she's 15-16 and you get a recipe for a disaster, I imagine)

Currently I have her doing such benign things as kissing the girl's cheek, then seguing into more.....harsh...events (because the other girl is at first unwilling. She eventually agrees, partially out of curiosity, partially out of bullying, though this is the whole 'is this realistic' thing). This would include the MC covering the girl's mouth while holding her gently to a wall (to hold her attention and keep her from calling out.

Also, because I'm slightly scared to Google search, although I probably shouldn't be if I'm writing it, how exactly would two girls go at it?

NOTE: I do think that she's unneccessarily violent, but that's part of her character thing. I do NOT think that this is reflexive of me at all, as I have severely different ideas and ways of it happening.

Kitty Pryde said:
1. It sounds like rape. Just so you know. And thusly it does not sound like romance. Also the market may be limited for sci-fi with underage lesbian rape scenes.

I've highlighted a key word that may very well prevent this from being published, even by an e-pub. Many of the GLBT publishers I've looked at specifically state they will not even look at a manuscript if it contains underage sex, consensual or not.

IReidandWrite · May 3, 2010

BenPanced said:
I've highlighted a key word that may very well prevent this from being published, even by an e-pub. Many of the GLBT publishers I've looked at specifically state they will not even look at a manuscript if it contains underage sex, consensual or not.

D'ohh!

And I so liked this idea, too.

Does this mean I need to send it to the private confines of my own twisted little mind?

Mara · May 3, 2010

Project nachonaco said:
D'ohh!

And I so liked this idea, too. Does this mean I need to send it to the private confines of my own twisted little mind?

Probably, if you were planning on using LGBT publishers. Mainstream publishers might do it if you take out what sorta comes across as rape (again, might just be badly explained), but LGBT publishers are generally under more scrutiny as it is and won't do that.

(In Stephen King's It, all of the kids have ritualistic group sex at some point around the time they defeat It the first time. I've never even heard anyone complain about it. But rape? Not going to fly. Not even sure if the lesbian element would even come into play.)

Georgina · May 4, 2010

What you describe is very close to rape. It's going to be tough to redeem your heroine from there, and I don't know how many readers are going to stick with you as you try. For me, the moment it happens, the book is hitting the wall. I don't care how many "good" reasons she has.

I'm not going to say not to write this, but I think it's going to require a lot of respect and sensitivity. That means dealing with the consequences in as honest a fashion as possible, both for the heroine and the other girl. You can't just shuffle the victim off the page and give the heroine a new love interest and happy rainbows sunshine joy.

It sounds to me that you want to show your heroine is unbalanced. Perhaps there's a way you can do that without having her sexually assult someone?

shaldna · May 4, 2010

firstly the age thing is an issue. Secondly, different mental illnesses will have different effects and not all of them make you a psychopath with no conept of right and wrong. Thirdly, I need to make it clear that what you are talking about is sexual assault and I fully expect your MC to have to pay for what she does.

Also, as mentioned, the age thing is an issue.

BenPanced · May 4, 2010

Project nachonaco said:
D'ohh!

And I so liked this idea, too. Does this mean I need to send it to the private confines of my own twisted little mind?

If your MC is the one who is assaulted and the story is about the aftermath and how she deals with it, you might have a better chance at getting it published.

Celia Cyanide · May 4, 2010

Also, I think that "how 2 girls go at it" is different than "how 2 girls go at it when one of them puts her hand over the other's mouth and bullies her."

Kitty Pryde · May 4, 2010

BenPanced said:
I've highlighted a key word that may very well prevent this from being published, even by an e-pub. Many of the GLBT publishers I've looked at specifically state they will not even look at a manuscript if it contains underage sex, consensual or not.

Aha. Well, "Rainbow Boys" is a YA novel with a gay sex scene between an adult and an underage teen. I believe "Wide Awake" is a YA with a gay sex scene between two underage teens too. So that's not impossible. They are both published by big publishers. And just read an adult novel from a small press with a gay sex scene between two underage teens.

Rape? I dunno. I know there are books with teens dealing with being raped (Speak), there are SF novels with rapist main characters (Stars My Destination, Thomas Covenant novels), but the underage+lesbian+rapist thing seems hard to deal with. It's also extremely uncommon (underage females committing sexual assault), to the point of maybe not being believable.

suki · May 4, 2010

IME, the "age thing" is only a thing to gay presses. Mainstream publishers, when they publish YA novels involving same sex relationships/sex, seem to be using the same lines and litmus tests as straight relationships/sex content. And there have been YA books from the trade publishers with under-age sex in same sex couples and even at least one relationship between an adult and a teen that I know of (Tricks, by EllenHopkins).

So, in the land of YA from trade publishers, the "age thing" is irrelevant. And I'd think they would treat assault/potential assault, similarly.

OP, you might want to check out Rage by Julie Anne Peters from last year. It involves an abusive lesbian relationship. Not a rape (at least as far as I read into the book) but it might give you some comparison ideas, and some ideas as to how explicit to be in the sexual content.

Unimportant · May 4, 2010

Yes, AFAIK it's a small/gay press thing. Big publishers don't worry about their books being marked as porn or being blocked at the border. Gay publishers (by which I mean all GLBTQ) do. Their books are automatically 'suspect' because gay sex is illegal in so many places. I'm aware of at least one of the larger GLBTQ presses that won't even allow in their historical novels an underage girl to get married, because that implies underage sex.

IReidandWrite · May 4, 2010

Is karmic retribution later in the story (for a different reason) enough?

'Cos she gets killed.....by her grandma....with poison lemon squares.

...I think I should seek halp.

Unimportant · May 4, 2010

Nacho, there's no set formula for what will or won't work in a story.

We've pretty much all said that a character who bullies or forces others into sex is unlikely to be a sympathetic protagonist. She can be an anti-heroine, or she can be a very flawed protagonist who has to redeem herself, or she can be an antagonist. If she's meant to be a sympathetic protagonist in a story in which her bulling/raping is presented in a positive light, though, you'll have a harder time engaging readers. Not saying it can't be done, just that the enormity of the task increases.

HelloKiddo · May 4, 2010

Project nachonaco said:
Is karmic retribution later in the story (for a different reason) enough? 'Cos she gets killed.....by her grandma....with poison lemon squares.

...I think I should seek halp.

I'm becoming interested. I was lukewarm before, but this book is sounding better every day :Sun:

BenPanced · May 5, 2010

Kitty Pryde said:
Aha. Well, "Rainbow Boys" is a YA novel with a gay sex scene between an adult and an underage teen. I believe "Wide Awake" is a YA with a gay sex scene between two underage teens too. So that's not impossible. They are both published by big publishers. And just read an adult novel from a small press with a gay sex scene between two underage teens.

Rape? I dunno. I know there are books with teens dealing with being raped (Speak), there are SF novels with rapist main characters (Stars My Destination, Thomas Covenant novels), but the underage+lesbian+rapist thing seems hard to deal with. It's also extremely uncommon (underage females committing sexual assault), to the point of maybe not being believable.

I was going by my recent research, having seen the submission guidelines for some smaller GLBT presses recently. I guess it comes down to how any author handles any potentially "hot" topic: how it's presented and to whom it's presented.

shaldna · May 5, 2010

With the age thing there's a difference in how sex is handled.

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