Complexities - Where Do I Start?

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Mark_Young

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I've got a YA Fantasy ms I've been trying to get published and I'm only just now realizing that the part I put the most effort into is the hardest area for me to get through.

The beginning.

This story has started off in so many ways, I hope I can count them. And none of them seem to work. The first attempt was with a battle set 700 years before the present (thus it was in a prologue), something I'm good at writing. But a lot of the literary agents I came across were women and I couldn't get in.

I gave it to a friend of mine and he told me that the action was good, but it was confusing. Why? Because of my Fantasy world is so vastly different from our own. I realized that using a battle didn't seem the best place to start. It took me 6, hour-long visits with him before he finally understood how the culture worked.


So then I got worried about it. I changed the intro to a dragon narrating it and giving a brief description (ok, one sentence) about each race and his words fade into the battle. That doesn't seem to work either, but I've shortened, lengthened, and completely changed that intro.

Now I've just plain deleted it because I realize the first 4 words were utterly stupid. The battle is gone to avoid confusion.


So I started with something in the past but much more recent. A 1-page prologue that showed off the hierarchy with a bit of mystery with a dig site. (Basically, the antagonist finds that "source of power" and intends to use it for conquest.)


It's started off with the main character and her two friends playing a prank on two young men showing off their character. About the worst thing I ever wrote, so glad I got rid of it. In the later rewrite, I shortened it and then removed it altogether.

So now I've got the main character, after the battle, after the dragon's narration, or after the dig site, fishing with a minor character. She's in an odd position according to the mainstream culture of the story. I have her teaching a peasant boy about the hierarchy and a bit of history through dialogue.

I'm pretty sure that's down the toilet. Since I've removed all of my edgy beginnings, it now starts off really slow with lessons to reveal how this works. I know what you're thinking, "Why do you feel you have to explain it?" Because my beta reader, 46-years-old who's a jack-of-all-trades, didn't get it. It's a crucial part of the story. There's terms, names, nations, and protocols that set this world apart from our own. It's not as simple as having X race at war with Y race in two different regions called Nation X and Nation Y.


Which is why I haven't shared any of it with anyone yet. So far, both of my beta readers have stopped reading a few chapters down where things get really good. And they stop reading right there. Actually, reading Tad Williams (a rare favorite of mine) was the point of inspiration for the story. (I managed to stumble across his literary agent online and queried him but got rejected there.)

I need:

1. A good start (i.e. not a history or economics lesson filled with stupid world building because I know that's bad. I teach others all the time not to do that)
2. That won't confuse readers
3. That helps explain the cultures


I just feel I've smacked into a dead end. :Headbang:
 

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Hi, Mark. One thing I've learned from reading Sol Stein's books and watching his DVDs is that when this happens, start with chapter three. It works. This is usually when the action starts. You can work chapters one and two in later. Good luck with this.


Mike
 

Mark_Young

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Hi, Mark. One thing I've learned from reading Sol Stein's books and watching his DVDs is that when this happens, start with chapter three. It works. This is usually when the action starts. You can work chapters one and two in later. Good luck with this.


Mike

I must've forgotten to mention that the book is almost completely finished. I'm halfway done revising it and when I'm done with that it will be close to 72-76,000 words. So it's just a matter of how and where to begin. So I'm already back full circle. I'm already back to that "later". :)



Any chance you want me to read this? I promise I won't stop until you tell me to.

I'm a little too embarrassed about it; I don't even let my own mother read it. The other thing is that I know I like having a very short chapter one and generally somewhat short chapter two. But I've got some really, really long chapters in this one (which is highly unusual for me). There's only 32 of them so far, and two of them span the final battle scene.


I can e-mail the first few chapters to you I suppose if you were willing to help me figure out a beginning. But I'll warn you now that they're probably so boring you'll not want to even beta read any of it after you start on the first few paragraphs.


Maybe it's just the fact that I like a lot of action (e.g. things going on). But I'd applaud and thank anyone who could swallow the first 3 chapters.
 

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I don't know, but I'd suggest beginning in a place and time right before the action begins -- the action that starts your story. That way, you have leisure to show us your characters, drip-drop your world building, and even sprinkle a little of your world systems and rules that differ it from our own. That way, the reader would get a slight hint of what to expect (that is, not to expect anything, lol) and you could guide them through your action and battles without the fear of them lagging behind. Just be sure what's important for them to understand your battles (that is, if anything magical or out of the ordinary happens and needs explaining) is said before the battle -- or through it if you could manage that.
 

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I actually love the idea of beginning with Chapter 3.

I'm a little too embarrassed about it; I don't even let my own mother read it...I can e-mail the first few chapters to you I suppose if you were willing to help me figure out a beginning. But I'll warn you now that they're probably so boring you'll not want to even beta read any of it after you start on the first few paragraphs.
Listen, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. If you're uneasy about sharing your work, that's fine. But I would be happy to read a few chapters and try to help you out. And trust me when I tell you that I can get through just about anything. I read theology and philosophy in my free time, so I'm used to my head spinning. ;)

So come on. Let's take a looksee.
 

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Taking inspiration from Tad Williams is a little bit problematic IMO, because as much as he is a great author, he's very long winded. He has the rare gift of being entertaining (to some) in his long-windedness. Almost nobody can do it as well as he does. Some of it is info-dumpage, some of it is just writing long.

Your beginning sounds boring because you've described it as a chit-chatty info-dump. It's definitely a valuable use of your time to work the essential information into interesting plot activity. (I've been fishing, and I can't say it's interesting). Jump right in with the plot on page 1 and don't look back! If stuff needs to be explained, give us just enough info, in small inoffensive chunks.

PS Good advice here: http://home.earthlink.net/~ccfinlay/Infodump.html
 
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Ambri

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One thing that may help you, is to look at your MS and figure out exactly where in your story the MC or MCs existence really changes. What is the "no turning back" point? Start there, or as close to it as possible.

Good luck!
 

Mr Flibble

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I am having a similar problem, but that has certain circumstances ( same place to start, which POV?)

One thing that may help you, is to look at your MS and figure out exactly where in your story the MC or MCs existence really changes. What is the "no turning back" point? Start there, or as close to it as possible.


Precisely. At what point does your main character's life change? Up until this point all has been normal for him / them, even if that 'normal' involves purple dragons.

Think of books / films you enjoy and where they start ( with the exceptions of prologues, which are a special case. But Chapter One).

LOTR - Frodo's normal life changes when Bilbo leaves and gives him the ring.
Luke Skywalker's normal life changes when a droid he's got to clean shows him a message.
Mal's, Captain of Serenity, life changes when he agrees to hire a doctor.

etc. etc.

Of course pinpointing it is another matter :D
 

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Thirding the life-changing moment thing.

I cut out the first two chapters (oh wow, start on the third chapter ftw!) and it's probably much stronger than it used to be.
 

CScottMorris

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Get a copy of 'How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy' by Orson Scott Card.
He suggests starting as close to the action as possible. You story might begin 700 years ago, but you MC has not been involved for that entire time. Start your novel as close to the point where your MC becomes involved as possible.
Now, the info dump. This is tough. As a speculative fiction writer, you have a problem. Your world differs from our own in many ways that your reader will not automatically know. But they do not need to know everything right up front to enjoy the story. O. S. Card deals with this in his book as well.
Fantasy and SciFi readers will accept not knowing everything about your world as they read. They expect to discover your world as they follow your MC's adventures.
Giving just enough information to understand the world, without bogging things down with info-dump is a fine line to walk. I seriously suggest you read more on how to write fantasy.
Good luck.
 

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My two cents.

There's something interesting about your character and what he's doing or what he's about to do. So what did he just finish doing before you start the story? When's the next bit of action going to start taking place?

Let's say the first bit of action the readers see is in chapter three. Is there anything that your character could have been doing before the first tid-bit of action? For example, he's going to slay a dragon in chapter three. In chapter one could you have him running away from that very dragon for stealing it's treasure?

It doesn't have to be action-packed or overly world building, but a brilliant mix of both is great.

If you're still confused, you could post a short outline of chapters 2-5 up here and perhaps get some good opinions of what should happen in one to complement the beginning of your book. Right now I'm just trying to catch fish in a pile of mud.

Good luck. =)
 

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First of all, you're more likely to get useful advice from people who've actually read your manuscript. We can only guess and hope, because we're dealing with it on a very abstract level. If you change your mind about showing your work, check out the "Beta Reader" and "SYW" sections of the forum.

Having said that, one of the best ways to show a world without info-dumping is to create an episode, with a beginning, middle, and end, that is part of the greater story and that couldn't happen anywhere but in that world.

A great example of this is the first three or four pages of Robert Heinlein's Orphans of the Sky. (Amazon will let read them online.)

Also do a search of this forum for the words "worldbuilding" and "incluing."
 
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Mark_Young

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Listen, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. If you're uneasy about sharing your work, that's fine. But I would be happy to read a few chapters and try to help you out. And trust me when I tell you that I can get through just about anything. I read theology and philosophy in my free time, so I'm used to my head spinning. ;)

So come on. Let's take a looksee.

Whoa, you are hardcore. :Hug2:



I don't know, but I'd suggest beginning in a place and time right before the action begins -- the action that starts your story. That way, you have leisure to show us your characters, drip-drop your world building, and even sprinkle a little of your world systems and rules that differ it from our own. That way, the reader would get a slight hint of what to expect (that is, not to expect anything, lol) and you could guide them through your action and battles without the fear of them lagging behind. Just be sure what's important for them to understand your battles (that is, if anything magical or out of the ordinary happens and needs explaining) is said before the battle -- or through it if you could manage that.

Yeah, one thing I'm happy about my story is that there's no magic. Although there's some pretty interesting technologies and creatures to make up for it. And I'm pretty sure I started at that point. It's that fishing scene I keep referring to.


Taking inspiration from Tad Williams is a little bit problematic IMO, because as much as he is a great author, he's very long winded. He has the rare gift of being entertaining (to some) in his long-windedness. Almost nobody can do it as well as he does. Some of it is info-dumpage, some of it is just writing long.

Your beginning sounds boring because you've described it as a chit-chatty info-dump. It's definitely a valuable use of your time to work the essential information into interesting plot activity. (I've been fishing, and I can't say it's interesting). Jump right in with the plot on page 1 and don't look back! If stuff needs to be explained, give us just enough info, in small inoffensive chunks.

PS Good advice here: http://home.earthlink.net/~ccfinlay/Infodump.html

Yeah, you're right about Tad Williams. I have to admit it's why I take so long to even start reading any of his material. Just need a little push... like a plane trip across the continent.

I read the article link and loved it. I saved it as a favorite and will probably read it again before I go to bed for good measure. It sounds great for another story I've written, and even better for my racing story (which includes a lot of mechanics), but I don't know about this one.



One thing that may help you, is to look at your MS and figure out exactly where in your story the MC or MCs existence really changes. What is the "no turning back" point? Start there, or as close to it as possible.

Good luck!

Uh oh, I've been sniped. One of my weaknesses is dynamic characters. All of them, except one in particular, are static characters and don't really change too much.

Things get a bit tense about Chapter 7, and it's in the middle of Chapter 6 where my beta readers have stopped. Doesn't sound too far, and there's only 29 hours between Chapter 1 and Chapter 8. But Chapter 7 starts at about the 14,700th word, and a lot of things happened before then.

The real point of no return, if you include the romance, and for all of my characters, near the end of Chapter 8. That's when positions and POVs (that is, the personal opinions) of the characters changes and the story shifts into 4th gear.



Precisely. At what point does your main character's life change? Up until this point all has been normal for him / them, even if that 'normal' involves purple dragons.

Think of books / films you enjoy and where they start ( with the exceptions of prologues, which are a special case. But Chapter One).

LOTR - Frodo's normal life changes when Bilbo leaves and gives him the ring.
Luke Skywalker's normal life changes when a droid he's got to clean shows him a message.
Mal's, Captain of Serenity, life changes when he agrees to hire a doctor.

etc. etc.
Of course pinpointing it is another matter :D
Thirding the life-changing moment thing.

I cut out the first two chapters (oh wow, start on the third chapter ftw!) and it's probably much stronger than it used to be.

Ah... the hook. The art of the page turner. The point the character's care is threatened and a passion/conflict begins. ... Well crap, I'm usually good at this. I'm drowning in the redness of my cheeks here! :e2drown:


Get a copy of 'How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy' by Orson Scott Card.
He suggests starting as close to the action as possible. You story might begin 700 years ago, but you MC has not been involved for that entire time. Start your novel as close to the point where your MC becomes involved as possible.

Hmm, I must've missed that book somewhere. I'll have to look for it when I'm at the bookstore again.



My two cents.
If you're still confused, you could post a short outline of chapters 2-5 up here and perhaps get some good opinions of what should happen in one to complement the beginning of your book. Right now I'm just trying to catch fish in a pile of mud.


Alright, that's an excellent idea. Wish I thought of that.





- - - - - - - - - -


May I present to everyone... the timeline, as suggested by M.Austin.


Time of the Quann begins about "Year 100" when a battle 700 years in the past began. It shifted all of history as the people rejected the instruction brought to them by the dragons. It's where my old version started.

At year 400, archery is considered cowardly and the royal classes reject it.

At year 500, a very important year, war is considered "obsolete". A continent-wide rebellion springs up about 566.

In the year 690, the villain of the story finds the Scrolls for Meer'Et. This is where I came up with the dig site. supposedly the source of wisdom and power to rule the world and by 700, invades the first nation.

708, the present story begins.
Chapter One: Almost 17-year-old Princess Nahmi (MC 1) is fishing at a gentle stream with a peasant boy.

She has to go home to prepare for a birthday party she doesn't want to be a part of (even though it's her own party). She wants to celebrate a holiday with the peasants of the village instead.

Nahmi gets to the castle, talks with one of her servants (a good conversation), remembers she's late to see her father.


Chapter 2: Too late. Her father is trying to settle two nations at the brink of war. There's a good insight into the cultures here at this point (for the upper class anyway). Nahmi embarrasses her father and they talk about the party. He talks to her about marriage. She wants a particular man who doesn't seem to exist.

First bit of action at the end of Chapter 2: Sike (MC #2) is hunting forest demons with a bow.


Chapter 3: Sike almost gets killed, turns out he's thinking about the birthday party but believes a girl like Nahmi doesn't exist. Ironically, it's obvious that Sike is exactly the man that Nahmi dreams about.

Sike returns to the castle area to trade the forest demons for a lot of money. He's stopped by Day (Antagonist #2), who's in love with Nahmi and wants the throne. He mocks Sike and gets injured in an accident thanks to Sike's reckless squire. (This is also really good insight into the culture.) Day confiscates the forest demon kills.


Chapter 4: Queen Sonnia (Antagonist #1) reveals her plot to invade the nations as well as her dilemma with time and trying to divide and slow alliances.

Nahmi goes to one of her friends trying to find something to wear for the party the next day. (Nice insight into character development.)

Sike is let off easy by the Captain of the Guards (Day's father) who recognizes Sike. Turns out Sike and Day, despite their differences, used to be playmates once upon a time.

Sike's squire runs into Day and he and 2 others begin mocking him.


Chapter 5: They happen to be under the room Nahmi is in and she saves the boy from more problems. When the squire learns about Nahmi, the Princess of all things, being the way she is, gets excited. He found Sike's soul mate.

Queen Sonnia walks around a room with hieroglyphs and recalls her people's past and the reason they are going to war. She believes it's her divine right to take of the continent.

Nahmi's friend comes by her room, explaining she's been locked out because her family is tired of her being late in trying to get ready and will pre-set her clothing and make-up this time.

That same night, Sike sneaks around the castle, using his skills as a hunter to evade detection and leaves a note of apology in Day's room. He associates with the other peasants after a long day of work in playing one of their tabletop games.

Day storms in and demands to know which of the peasants violated the law about "infiltrating the room of an officer". Sike stands up for the peasants and gets into a brawl with Day.


Chapter 6: Nahmi wakes up and prepares to go to her birthday party. She shows the way she's supposed to live as an upper class lady.

The Captain of the Guards banishes Sike from the castle for the day and the birthday party. Sike instead goes to his favorite village of peasants (who are nomadic unlike Nahmi's favorite village of peasants). The squire is left at the castle.

The king tries to push Nahmi into a dance with Day and to socialize with the other young men. She's rather disgusted. The squire manages to use his smarts to get inside (something he learned from Sike). He finds a coat made of the fur of forest demons (highly expensive). Day explains at the party in the form of a play how he hunted and killed two forest demons with his only his sword. The squire starts telling the other servants and peasants about what really happened, and they in turn tell their upperclassmen. Eventually everyone knows that Day is lying but say nothing of it.

The squire gets word to Nahmi and tells her about Sike. She leaves her own birthday party.

Turns out leaving the party wasn't a bad idea: the ambassador for Queen Sonnia was plotting an assassination attempt of Nahmi (who wasn't there).


Chapter 7: Sike and Nahmi finally meet.
 

Mr Flibble

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May I ? I am ofc just referencing your synop here, not your actual story - and synops are devilishly hard. Sarcasm is not meant to be hurtful, but to see where I fail to see what you're getting at. k?
Chapter One: Almost 17-year-old Princess Nahmi (MC 1) is fishing at a gentle stream with a peasant boy.

She has to go home to prepare for a birthday party she doesn't want to be a part of (even though it's her own party). She wants to celebrate a holiday with the peasants of the village instead.

Nahmi gets to the castle, talks with one of her servants (a good conversation), remembers she's late to see her father.

eek! clche alert. Person with everything prefers 'real' people ie people who have nothing in common with them / in separate spheres to gain sympathy. Now this may not be you - but your outline suggests it. I'd prefer it if she had a paddy over having to have the party :D Plus seems rather light on conflict / tension? People want to be nice to me but I don't want them to? Seems a little unsympathetic. (note I have a similar character myself - but ....it's not the character, it's how you show them to start. This is not a sympathetic start to a synop)

Chapter 2: Too late. Her father is trying to settle two nations at the brink of war. There's a good insight into the cultures here at this point (for the upper class anyway). Nahmi embarrasses her father and they talk about the party. He talks to her about marriage. She wants a particular man who doesn't seem to exist.
Not sur I get this. SO you world build - good, MC wants mythical man who doesn't exist - uh oh I'm seein a big set up here. *throws runes* yup, she's gonna meet man who doesn't exist, forgetting that there are all kinds of people in the world - a thingy of her cloistered upbringing I'd assume, only she's allowed to fish with common folk . Daddy will hate him on sight anyway so...

First bit of action at the end of Chapter 2: Sike (MC #2) is hunting forest demons with a bow.
Can we start wit this action? I am assuming now he is Man Who Does Not Exist?


Chapter 3: Sike almost gets killed, turns out he's thinking about the birthday party but believes a girl like Nahmi doesn't exist. Ironically, it's obvious that Sike is exactly the man that Nahmi dreams about.

Sike returns to the castle area to trade the forest demons for a lot of money. He's stopped by Day (Antagonist #2), who's in love with Nahmi and wants the throne. He mocks Sike and gets injured in an accident thanks to Sike's reckless squire. (This is also really good insight into the culture.) Day confiscates the forest demon kills.

Um if he's thinking about the party why does he believe a girl like her doesn't exist? And what is she like , apart from not appreciating people being nice to her? And so Day is 'generic bad guy' give me more here on why he's bad.


Chapter 4: Queen Sonnia (Antagonist #1) reveals her plot to invade the nations as well as her dilemma with time and trying to divide and slow alliances.

*head spins at names*
Nahmi goes to one of her friends trying to find something to wear for the party the next day. (Nice insight into character development.)

*rolls eyes* Okay so you can have a female MC who likes clothes but...where is her personality? Apart from does this make my bum look big? Wht is she actually like?
Sike is let off easy by the Captain of the Guards (Day's father) Why who recognizes Sike. Turns out Sike and Day, despite their differences, used to be playmates once upon a time.
And? I was playmates with al kinds of people, doesn't mean I'd like 'em now.
Sike's squire runs into Day and he and 2 others begin mocking him.

Why and don't they remember each other even a little bit and etc etc

Chapter 5: They who, Sike and Day?
happen to be under the room Nahmi is in and she saves the boy which one? from more problems. When the squire learns about Nahmi, the Princess of all things, being the way she is What obsessed with clothes and fishing? , gets excited. He found Sike's soul mate.
Don't get this. sorry.

Queen Sonnia walks around a room with hieroglyphs and recalls her people's past and the reason they are going to war. She believes it's her divine right to take of the continent.
k. I assume his is all pertinent.


Nahmi's friend comes by her room, explaining she's been locked out because her family is tired of her being late in trying to get ready and will pre-set her clothing and make-up this time.
er, k? This is reading to me like women's lit BTW. Bung in some Jimmy Choos and we are there. And I am bored tbh.

That same night, Sike sneaks around the castle, using his skills as a hunter to evade detection and leaves a note of apology in Day's room. He associates with the other peasants after a long day of work in playing one of their tabletop games.
He's apologising to Day? Why? Day's an arse and should be handed his butt on a platter, or so I thought? Plus tabletop games - are we talking warhammer?
Day storms in and demands to know which of the peasants violated the law about "infiltrating the room of an officer". Sike stands up for the peasants and gets into a brawl with Day.
Is lost. And seems a bit of cheap reasoning re god guy bad guy.


Chapter 6: Nahmi wakes up and prepares to go to her birthday party. She shows the way she's supposed to live as an upper class lady.
It's taken a long time to get to it. You mention the party in eh first chap - it should come sooner in the narrative.

The Captain of the Guards banishes Sike from the castle for the day and the birthday party
Um, why? .
Sike instead goes to his favorite village of peasants (who are nomadic unlike Nahmi's favorite village of peasants). The squire is left at the castle.
And?
The king tries to push Nahmi into a dance with Day and to socialize with the other young men. She's rather disgusted. The squire manages to use his smarts to get inside (something he learned from Sike). He finds a coat made of the fur of forest demons (highly expensive). Day explains at the party in the form of a play how he hunted and killed two forest demons with his only his sword. The squire starts telling the other servants and peasants about what really happened, and they in turn tell their upperclassmen. Eventually everyone knows that Day is lying but say nothing of it.
Okay - stuff starts! conflict and things! Start here. Work in the other stuff subtle like.
The squire gets word to Nahmi and tells her about Sike. She leaves her own birthday party.
She leaves a party cos some one says there is a hot guy somewhere. Actually...


Turns out leaving the party wasn't a bad idea: the ambassador for Queen Sonnia was plotting an assassination attempt of Nahmi (who wasn't there).


Chapter 7: Sike and Nahmi finally meet. __________________
Just remember -- I'm an extremely hard critic of movies and books alike, and a very hard reader to please.

I also like realism. Lots of it
 
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semmie

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Mark,

Here are my (limited) thoughts.

I know you're probably attached to the opening scenes, and I understand that you want to cover some of the back story here, but I think you can do much better. Personally, I would not read a fantasy story that opened with a fishing scene, unless, for instance, the fish sang to the MC, or the the MC was sucked into the river and washed up in some alternate world.

For instance, the whole purpose of the opening scene seems to be to establish that the MC is dreading her upcoming birthday party. I don't think we need it. Why not begin at the party, and express her dismay of the events, her frustration with being pushed towards marriage, her dissatisfaction with all of it? Other important issues (the Father trying to avoid war, the arrogance and dishonesty of Day, etc) can be addressed from the party scene, I think.

Another possibility would be opening with Sike hunting. You move into the trading scene, then, and have the potential to show Day as he is--arrogant, talking up his potential match to the princess, etc. Then, moving into the party, we can meet this princess, and we can be affirmed that Day really is a prig.

Those are my initial thoughts. I suspect others will have other (better!) ideas for how to get this story moving.

Good luck, Mark! Let us know what you decide. :)
 

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Alright remember, I strongly generalized what I said. What you read covers over 17,000 words, and almost none of it is world-building except half the first chapter. I'd hardly call it a synopsis.

I used tabletop game because it isn't a board game, it's not a card game. Kinda like mixing jacks and poker. I made it all up.


You're right about most of the romance so far. It's really weak and needs work. The only thing you're wrong on is how the King sees Sike; they hit off pretty well almost immediately. Day takes awhile for the King to... dislike.



Now the focus of this is not show you the plot; I'm missing enormous amounts of things going on. I just want to know where can I start and how? If I start with the birthday party, I'm missing tons of important information.


Though I'm getting more drawn to using that hunting scene.




Now I'm not attached to my intros. I hate them because I can't get them to work. But I don't really know how to change them.
 

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@ Ellis,

I'll die first before I torment the public with the first few thousand words of that junk. Ok, maybe not that bad, but still...

I might post the hunting scene though.
 

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Alright remember, I strongly generalized what I said. What you read covers over 17,000 words, and almost none of it is world-building except half the first chapter. I'd hardly call it a synopsis.

I know you generalised (I said in my intro) but that generalisation - which is a synopsis btw - is all I had to go on, so I went on it. And from that I'd say start at the party. That's where the real change seems to happen.

If you want specifics from us you have to give US specifics. My ESP isn't turned on today :D And yes I know it's rough when someone goes through your plot and says huh? or are you sure? or *rolls eyes* - I know because this last week several people have shredded my synopsis. But not shredded me, shredded my representation of my MS. What I said was only - only mind - my take on what you posted here, as I said in my intro.

Now I'm not attached to my intros. I hate them because I can't get them to work. But I don't really know how to change them.
If they don't work, cut them and start with what DOES work. Backstory can be woven subtly in from there. Start with change.
 
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I know you generalised (I said in my intro) but that generalisation - which is a synopsis btw - is all I had to go on, so I went on it. And from that I'd say start at the party. That's where the real change seems to happen.

If you want specifics from us you have to give US specifics. My ESP isn't turned on today :D And yes I know it's rough when someone goes through your plot and says huh? or are you sure? or *rolls eyes* - I know because this last week several people have shredded my synopsis. But not shredded me, shredded my representation of my MS. What I said was only - only mind - my take on what you posted here, as I said in my intro.

You are forgiven. :D



If they don't work, cut them and start with what DOES work. Backstory can be woven subtly in from there. Start with change.

If I were to start with change, that means I'm going back to my 700-year-old battle. The problem is that part of that change involves a shift in culture, which as I've said before, is very different from our own. And yes, I can weave backstory in the action pretty easily, but I can't do that with world-building. That's a whole different ballgame.




For starters, I'm not even using normal European broadswords her. But I am using historically real swords. The only weapon the common man would recognize is the katana.

I'd feel a lot better if I knew I was guaranteed to have pictures in this. Maybe I should just explore the movie script route...




RACES OF MEER’ET

Nearly all of the nations of Meer’Et have an aristocratic society, each social class is defined by race. Every nation has the same class and race. The only difference between each nation is the type of Quann that rule them. So none of these races have their own nation.

Quann rule the nations, forming the highest class of people in the aristocratic societies. They make up government officials, leaders, ambassadors, and most of the military officers in the army. All Quann are born with wings. The Quann worship the Divine Being as the Great King. They believe that they are the sole, true interpreters of the Divine Being’s will.

Sheer make up the landlords, tax collectors, employers, small business owners, some of the military officers in the army, and leaders of regiments. The Sheer are short compared to the other people, but are a little stocky in nature, similar to midgets. The Sheer worship the Divine Being as the Competitor for Souls.

Myth’Hye are the middle-class workers. They “freemen”, paid workers and servants. They have a variety of light brown and tan skin, eye, and hair colors. The Myth’Hye worship the Divine Being as the Great Craftsman.

Ekkli are the peasants, servants, and famers who generally cannot read or write. They are like Myth’Hye, only they have white hair and very pale skin. The Ekkli worship the Divine Being as the Father.

Youth’ik are the lowest class of people in Meer’Et, equivalent to slaves and the homeless. They are the outcasts of society, made up of members from the other groups. They generally believe the Divine Being doesn’t exist or has abandoned them.

Dragons – These beings had a wingspan of forty feet from tip-to-tip. Their large and thick-leathery wings quickly regenerate after being torn or ruptured. Their necks are nine feet in length, tails almost twice that. They came in various sizes, some with fur, some with skin, but most with scales. Their scales were close and tight, and sometimes came in as many as three layers. Their muscles were dense and bones were likened to carbon fibered steel. Their tails were either prehensile, whip-like, or had sharp barbs or a scythe.
These Dragons had a large appetite, eating as much as three tons of food a day, depending on their activity. This food was then digested, the juices in the stomach could be transferred into several bladders in the form of methane. This gave the Dragons the ability to fly. They can also use these methane reserves to breath fire. However, breathing fire expends a great deal of the gasses keeping them aloft, so breath too much fire, and they will be grounded, unless they could eat. Eat too much, and they will be weighted down for fight, and unable to digest as quickly.
Over seven hundred years before the time of this story’s events, the Dragons interpreted the will of the Divine Being to the people of Meer’Et. They were respectfully called the Prophets, and they brought the messages to the Quann, who then gave them to the other people, and ruled a set of laws given to them by the Dragons.
But at one time, some of the Dragons began to deceive the Quann. They lied to the Quann and began to sow greed and mistrust in their hearts. Soon, the Quann began to mistrust each other and the Dragons, sparking the War Between Quann.



NATIONS OF MEER’ET


NATIONS OF SPRING
Ty – A monarchy ruled by the Fey-Quann. The next ruler is determined by the king’s eldest son (or daughter) who marries a suitor from the aristocratic governors, military leaders, officers, or castle staff of Fey-Quann. Ty encompasses the largest and fruitful land mass in Meer’Et, and thus has the largest population on the continent.
Fey-Quann: Quann who have four, fairy-like wings. Their wing color is usually a lighter shade of their hair color, with numerous different shades. Their wings allow them a great deal of flight mobility—flying backwards, up, down, with easy takeoffs and landings. However, they are very frail and cannot glide easily.

Frett – A monarchy ruled by the Aeshi-Quann.
Aeshi-Quann: Quann who are born with golden wings like angels. They typically have hair that have golden or brownish shades, and are slightly taller and larger than other people. Because they are light in bone structure, they have the highest altitude of flight over all the other Quann, with a fast dive speed. They can glide very well, but expend a great deal of energy if they try to fly fast for too long.

Zephda - A monarchy ruled by the Vyzen-Quann. The culture and military organization are almost identical to Ty.
Vyzen-Quann: People like Fey-Quann, only with dragonfly type wings. They are faster fliers than Fey-Quann, and can fly horizontally better, but they do not have an easy time landing or maneuvering vertically.



NATIONS OF WINTER
Laddos – An absolute dictatorship headed by the Gjyn-Quann. This nation exists north in a mountain range and is currently undergoing reorganization into a Communist-type state, in which everyone is equal and all wealth and property is to be shared.
Gjyn-Quann: Very large and rough-skinned Quann. Their wings are wide and leathery, and they have a great deal of strength, making them the most powerful fliers with the fastest dive speed. However, they cannot fly as high as Aeshi-Quann, nor very fast, and they have a hard time taking off. They are much larger than the other people, with dark, empty eyes, giving them a menacing appearance.



Kon’Lay – Once separated as Kon and Lay, the two warring tribes headed by the Nabalk-Quann set their differences and united to fight the first War Between Quann. It was after they were defeated that the Quann generally believed that warfare was becoming obsolete. They are renowned for raising herds of Ma’teys as labor beasts and reside in the barren drifts just east of the northern mountains.
Nabalk-Quann set their differences and united to fight the first War Between Quann. It was after they were defeated that the Quann generally believed that warfare was becoming obsolete. They are renowned for raising herds of Ma’teys as labor beasts and reside in the barren drifts just east of the northern mountains.



NATIONS OF FALL
League of Hah’myan – After the Rebellion Against Wings, a large group of Sheer, Myth’Hye, Ekkli, and Youth’ik tried to form their own nation. They are a democratic republic with a governing council that makes the laws and declares war, and a Prime Minister who enforces the laws and leads the war effort. They are known for having an excellent Navy and excel in technology.


Tarsis – A democratic monarchy ruled by the Zsho-Quann. There are four houses, like political parties, that are voted to control Tarsis.
Zsho-Quann: Quann with butterfly-like wings. They have a dark hair color and thin eyes. They can glide for short distances with the wind, and are excellent at maneuvering by making quick turns in place, and can land and takeoff better than all the other Quann.




NATIONS OF SUMMER
Hive – Ruled by the Chtli-Quann. This society lives on a massive island southwest of the continent the story revolves around. Closer to the equator, Hive resides in a tropical island kept forested by the rains and storms of the sea. Almost all of the inhabitants are female Quann, save the ten percent male population. The Chtli-Quann do own a number of slaves consisting of Myth’Hye. These servants are bred for food and some slave labor. In their history, they were harvesters of medicines and luxury items from the Islands of Summer. These islands are covered in tropical jungle filled with exotic animals of all shapes and sizes.
Hives form city-states consisting of layers of circular ziggurats that are built out of the side of cliffs, hanging from mountains, or rising up to the sky on the ground. They do not live united and their constant battles and simple technology keep them secluded. They believe that the Divine Being represents a life-essence or cycle of order. They call this essence Tlopillyhanti, roughly translated as “the great breath cycle in life”.

Chtli-Quann: These Quann have an insectoid appearance, with four arms (two of which have talons on the ends instead of hands), antennae, four eyes, and mouths at the end of their chin with four, double-jointed teeth. They excel at speed, being the fastest Quann in Meer’Et, with the fastest climb rate and take off. They are also of the most numerous, numbering a few hundred thousand. There are more Chtli-Quann than all the other Quann combined. But their technology is simple, and they do not believe in bearing weapons or armor.
Their language is also very basic, but extremely complex. They have no alphabet. Instead, they have a word for every description possible, and a list of words for intensities. Forming sentences have to be done in a specific order of strict grammar rules, without any dialects or accents. A whole paragraph of descriptions can be made in as little as one sentence, while a single sentence can be as complex as a whole paragraph. In that light, they are very fast speakers. In addition, they do not have metaphors or riddles. Everything said or written is literal.



CREATURES AND FAUNA

Black Skin – A disease bacterium that feeds upon dead flesh. It is extremely contagious through contact. The bacteria emit acid that melt the skin cells, killing them. The bacteria will then consume them, and reproduce. When they die, their decomposed bodies will shrivel up and harden, sticking to the surface of the flesh. This causes an itching sensation and produces a black rash, from where the name comes from. The itching worsens the effect, as the dead skin cells are removed, allowing the bacteria to penetrate deeper, and also invade the skin under the fingernails. It takes about two to three weeks for the Black Skin disease to start severely affecting those who are infected, and causes serious stinging pain. Treatments would be easy, but if the bacteria are ingested or have entered the bloodstream, the condition worsens, and will become fatal within days. If directly inhaled, mucus in the lungs can usually contain them unless inhaled too much. This produces a nauseating gas within the lungs that will render the person unconscious after about three weeks of infection. Then, the death may take over two months, as the bacteria slowly eat the body away, until vital organs are eventually consumed to death.
The only cure for Black Skin once the infection is too severe is a complex and expensive process that is made from processed Glowing Moss and rare crystalyte. The chemical reactions will convert the Black Skin to repair damaged cells and build them back up, thus reversing the process.


Bombardier Sucker – A spherical, acidic animal about 3.4 inches in diameter. It is covered in suckers, which it retracts and sucks in air around trees and rocks to move. When provoked, it will release a puff of acid that is filled with stinging needles; very harmful and disruptive to respiratory systems. When it moves in a threatening display, its normally grayish tones will turn lime green. When bitten or struck, it will explode, releasing a toxic slime that is filled with stinging needles. Also within such acid are the male or female components with which it can reproduce when another crawls along and sucks them up.


Dangle Frog – A frog about 4 inches small. It hangs from the bottom of tree branches in the Summer Islands. It feeds on the very fast-moving viper ants that crawl along the floor. To prevent itself from falling in the ant swarm, it will stick its tongue to the top of the tree and use it like a bungee cord to snag a few ants in its suction cup, sticky webbed feet.


Forest Demon – A double-jointed carnivore six to seven feet long. They have pitch black fur with silver, wave-pattern highlights. They are adept at climbing, able to stand upright and jump and swing between branches using their rounded paws, or run quickly on their knuckles. As very intelligent hunters, they hunt in packs of six to twelve; one group scares the prey while the other ambushes it. Because they are social creatures and not territorial, they will sometimes form into large packs nicknamed “shadows”, because of their large numbers. When this occurs, food supplies can run low and provoke the creatures to attack villages. Their fur is extremely luxurious and highly expensive, as the animals tend to be very hard to kill, much less catch, tame, or skin.


Glow Moss – Moss that gives off a dark bluish glow. They can be found on trees in the Hanging Forest on the ground and roots of the willow trees, where they absorb the water dripping from the branches. They can also be found in rivers and lakes where Spinefish will feed on them. They can also be found in the cold, northern region of Winter.


Ice Beetle – A white, hard-shelled insect about three inches long. It has incisors that rapidly vibrate, allowing it to plow through the snow. It feeds on moss and carrion; its feces provide more food for the glow moss.


Ma’tey – A hunchbacked ape-like creature that stands about nine feet tall. It is coated in large amounts of blubber that is covered in thick white fur. As omnivores, they are able to survive the cold region of Winter by eating figs, licking moss, or eating dead animals. They have large, long eye slits and use thermal vision. Their hands are long and thin with six digits. These hands, though very thin, are often covered by a layer of blubber that sinks over their knuckles. Most of the Ma’tey are domestic as they are captured for food, clothing, and beasts of burden by the tribes of Kon’Lay.


Moss Spider –Five-legged bugs about the size of a human hand. They actively hunt their prey, with a pair of incisors at the end of each leg. These incisors retract for grasping and feeding. They cannot jump well, but can climb anything not solid stone by digging their incisors into objects. Their venom is very weak, leaving a reddening mark where they walk or bite on a creature. However, when they do eat, they will tear into their prey like a piranha.


Spinefish – A freshwater fish in Ty that range in length from Their fins have barbed bones that are exposed much like fingernails that extend in serrated patterns. As scavengers, they swim very close to the bottom of lakes and rivers so that they can eat while protecting their bodies from predators. When something bites them, their fins flux, and the barbed claws detach from the fin which will grow back later. Most predators will die from trying to eat one of these fish. Since Spinefish swim together in large groups, it is difficult for anything to get a hold of one. The fish are light red in tint with yellow, jagged marks around their bodies.


Spin-Tail Flycatcher – A bird about 3 inches large, 4.5 inches with the tail flat. This flycatcher is a bug eater that will hop along the ground, watching for insects flying overhead. It will then jump; spinning their tail feathers as well as their wings like helicopter rotors to remain suspended in the air, and catch the prey, somewhat like a more powerful humming bird. However, it saves energy by hopping along the ground, and is capable of short, true flight in this manner as its wings rapidly rotate to give it direction. The bird is native to the Nations of Spring and Fall.


Mushroom Tree – A two-storied, hollow mushroom. These mushrooms give a faint glow at night given off from the sunlight they absorb. Very fragile and sensitive to extreme temperatures, they only exist in the Nations of Spring and parts of Summer. Since they grow in large groups, Ekkli will make villages out of them, because they do not have to pay for building materials or lighting.


Hanging Tree – any number of common trees that are soft and dense, about nine to twenty feet in height, depending on location and type. Hanging trees have branches that reach outward like other trees, but do not have leaves. Instead, the branches reach outward and grow very thin and light, spiraling down like finger-sized hair curls that almost reach the ground. These strips absorb bits of nutrients from the air and rainfall as the fall, feeding on tiny particles from the low gravity area. They are commonly kept for paper, by shaving the bark into sheets, giving an almost limitless supply. They are classified by color, the most common being bright colors like white, cherry red, and dark green, depending on area where a combination of food particles might give them their color.



WEAPONS OF MEER’ET

Hand Weapons
Early weapons used in Meer’Et were simple straightened weapons like crude clubs, swords, and spears. Such weapons were few and rarely used, for the Dragons and Quann were able to control the populations.
Now, straightened weapons are looked down upon as barbaric in nature. For the longest time, weapons were designed with class and elegance in mind, symbols of position and wealth. Most nations have developed their own martial arts systems and each bears a different sword with curvature nature in it. Straightedge and staff weapons are still produced, as they are cheap and easy, but are given to the lower class of warriors and people for common defense and war.
Knives and small daggers are the exception. As good knives are considered very difficult to manufacture, they are rarer sights, used as personal defense weapons used by the most esteemed and rich.
The Quann have condemned the use of ranged weapons on their own persons, as it is considered “cowardly” to be engaging enemies from a distance. This ideology probably evolved from when the Quann became more interested in duels rather than bloody battlefield combat.
Single-handed weapons are typically light and easy to wield, as the handle is only long enough for a single hand. Hand-and-a-half swords have a handle just long enough for two hands, and are able to be wielded one handed or two. Two-handed swords are larger, longer, and/or bulkier, and often require both hands to be wielded effectively.



Frettican Dao – A single-handed sword that has a slight arc near the center where the blade curves upward. The last few inches of the blade is slightly thicker than the rest. This weapon fits the Frettican style of combat, where attacks are made at a slight distance between them and the opponent, and a deep gash can be made after a stab, followed by a jerk or by a strong slash.

Hah’myan Cutlass – A single-handed sword that has a slight arc from the handle to the tip. The handle usually has extra protection around the fingers that can be used for punching. The weapon was created by the shorter Hah’myan people, who are not as large or long as most of the Quann. It’s notorious for use at sea onboard a ship where many full swings cannot be made. Thus the Hah’myan sailors are known as some of the best combatants in tight spaces.

Laddosian Khopesh – A single-handed sword that arcs steeply downward a few inches from the hilt. The tip has a small “hook” on the topside pointed up towards the user, and the tip is straight from the handle.

Laddosian Voulge – A thick, curved blade attached to the end of a weapon, like a bayonet. These blades are attached to the ends of Gjyn ranged weapons, such as crossbows and flamers.

Tarsisian Katana – A hand-and-half sword with a stead arc from the handle. This weapon has the longest reach of the other blades, but is also thin.

Ty Sappara – A hand-and-a-half sword that has a straight blade from the handle for a few inches and then gently curves downward, the tip pointing straight from handle.

swords.jpg


(There's also a few other heavier artillery weapons but they're easy enough to describe.)
 
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Is it possible that you've gotten a little carried away with your world-building, and forgotten about characterization and plot? You've obviously put a lot of work into the first, but based on your synopsis, you're not really using it for anything.

17 000 words, boiled down, and still NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. There's a birthday party? And a squabble between nobles? What is the main conflict in this story? Don't you think that, by 17 000 words in, you should have introduced it? (And if you HAVE introduced it...yikes. The only possible plot I'm seeing so far is the romance, and that doesn't really seem like enough to justify all the world building...)
 

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See if you can put your story into a paragraph resembling this one

[protagonist name] is a [description of protagonist] living in [setting]. But when [complicating incident], [protagonist name] must [protagonist's quest] and [verb] [villain] in order to [protagonist's goal]. (Borrowed from http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2008/03/query-letter-mad-lib.html).
 

Mark_Young

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Is it possible that you've gotten a little carried away with your world-building, and forgotten about characterization and plot? You've obviously put a lot of work into the first, but based on your synopsis, you're not really using it for anything.

17 000 words, boiled down, and still NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. There's a birthday party? And a squabble between nobles? What is the main conflict in this story? Don't you think that, by 17 000 words in, you should have introduced it? (And if you HAVE introduced it...yikes. The only possible plot I'm seeing so far is the romance, and that doesn't really seem like enough to justify all the world building...)


Surprising as it may be...
The story started with characters, not world-building. In fact, the only stories I finish are based on characters. That 17,000 words I mentioned, hardly any of it is world-building, only in the first 1/4th section of the first chapter. Which is bad.

Plot is nothing but character interaction. If you read Huck Finn by Mark Twain, it sold untold millions of copies, but it has no plot, just follows characters going along.

So no, it is not possible that my world-building got carried away.


What are you looking for? A supremely epic beginning that puts a chill down your bones? A thing? A focus? Some sort of theme? Death or near death? History?

Hmm.

I said I don't like my beginning. I know it's long and boring. But I don't know how else to do this. Telling somebody something is bad [especially if they already know] is vastly different thing from a suggestion. I never asked if this was good. I said it was bad and I need help with it.

This is the reason I didn't post anything in SYW and put this under Sandbox.



I took a number of characters I randomly created one day, tossed them together in the same universe, and the next day I had a story. I've mentioned before that world-building is a means of giving depth to characters, building upon their character. Stories are never meant to be an excuse for world-building; instead it must be a tool for the story.


See if you can put your story into a paragraph resembling this one

[protagonist name] is a [description of protagonist] living in [setting]. But when [complicating incident], [protagonist name] must [protagonist's quest] and [verb] [villain] in order to [protagonist's goal]. (Borrowed from http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2008/03/query-letter-mad-lib.html).

This is too easy. I'm wondering if you're trying to test me if my world-building is stronger than my characterization.


[Nahmi] is a [Ty princess] living in [Meer'Et]. But when [Queen Sonnia, armed with the lost Scrolls for Meer'Et threatens to conquer the world], Nahmi must [rally the peasant-class Ekkli and prove the tyrant Queen's cause wrong], to [stop] [Sonnia] in order to [preserve history and restore Meer'Et to the way things peacefully were].

I can do this with both of my MCs and several of my supporting characters by simply switching roles.

This doesn't help me figure out how to get started though.
 
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