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DwayneA
04-17-2010, 07:38 AM
Okay, I know a lot of people (especially the girls) are going to call me sexist and misogynistic (I'm not), but this is an issue that I can't understand and that I feel must be brought up and discussed.

In fiction and television, they always seem to portray women as being smarter, stronger, and more competent than men. In cartoons such as the Simpsons and Family Guy, the fathers and sons are idiots while the mothers and daughters are much smarter and intelligent.

Also, I've seen women do things on tv that I consider "unrealistic". For example, in one episode of the "Flintstones", Wilma punches out a champion boxer with one punch. Come on, that's impossible! And in one episode of "Recess" where the kids go to a fair, a big strong boy doesn't hit the bell at a "Test Your Strength" attraction, but then a small girl comes up and she has no trouble ringing the bell. I knew that this was "impossible".

Look, I believe in "equality between the sexes", so I resent women being given special treatment "just because they're women". Yet a lot of authors and television producers keep doing this and portraying women as smarter, stronger, and more competent than the men, which to me isn't just unreal and unfair, it's sexist. So why do women keep being portrayed this way in fictional content? Is it some kind of rule or something?

WildScribe
04-17-2010, 07:45 AM
It isn't an elevation of women, it's a joke on men. It gets laughs, so why would they stop? Anyway, there ARE portrayals of dumb blonds, etc.

DwayneA
04-17-2010, 07:48 AM
if it's a joke on men, I'm not laughing

Bushrat
04-17-2010, 07:51 AM
Maybe it's a balance to all the movies, TV shows and commercials that show women as sex-craved, shopaholic, beauty salon addicted numb wits, teetering away on their high heels and screaming as the mugger/rapist/murderer enters their apartment.

milly
04-17-2010, 07:58 AM
wait...I AM smarter and more competent than most men so...what's the problem?

This whole "phenomenon" might just be a reality you don't want to accept. (though I do agree with the "stronger" part)

;):)

jennontheisland
04-17-2010, 08:05 AM
And so the tables turn.

And the boys don't like it.

Gee, sucks to be you.

GregB
04-17-2010, 08:10 AM
Also, I've seen women do things on tv that I consider "unrealistic". For example, in one episode of the "Flintstones", Wilma punches out a champion boxer with one punch. Come on, that's impossible!

Just curious, is that the only part of the Flintstones you find unrealistic?

DwayneA
04-17-2010, 08:11 AM
no there are other parts, but if I discuss them, I'll be getting off-topic

Toothpaste
04-17-2010, 08:16 AM
Dwayne - broaden your viewing to more mature adult shows, and not just cartoons and kids tv comedies. You will see many men being portrayed just fine, and for the most part you will encounter women as little more than sex objects and props for the men in those shows. Watch any CSI episode and you are likely to find some woman murdered in a horrific and usually sexual way as the main plot point mystery for then the main male character to solve. Trust me, hon, women are still very much un-equal in television, and even those few points you made, the joke is that it's so absurd that a woman could possibly take down a man. It's still a joke about a man, with the woman as the prop.

You want to talk unrealistic, how about all those large, and as you call them, stupid men who somehow manage to land hot brilliant women. Those shows tend to be written by men my friend, it's called wish fulfillment.

(but if you're looking for some pretty decent equality in portrayal, check out LOST, the guys get to be heroes. And so do the women.)

DwayneA
04-17-2010, 08:40 AM
one more thing I'd like to know is how I should portray my female characters in my works of fiction. I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and go outside, only to find a huge crowd of angry feminists outside my house.

Soccer Mom
04-17-2010, 08:46 AM
Dwayne, we've done this repeatedly. Cartoons are not realistic. They are satire. Remember these previous threads?

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132435&highlight=Simpsons

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132042&highlight=cartoons

jennontheisland
04-17-2010, 08:49 AM
one more thing I'd like to know is how I should portray my female characters in my works of fiction. I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and go outside, only to find a huge crowd of angry feminists outside my house.
Why not? You might sell more books that way.

Your characters should be portrayed as your characters. You're never going to please everyone. Trying to is futile. But if you write dynamic characters that readers can relate to, rather than satirical stereotyped, you're less likely to piss a bunch of people off. (see original post)

emandem
04-17-2010, 08:53 AM
While I agree w/ most of the posters above, I do see Dwayne's point. Maybe it's just b/c I have sons, but I've noticed a trend in kids' books/movies lately...

I took my sons to see Harry Potter, and the girl Hermione in that flick is definitely smarter than the guys. I took them to see Percy Jackson, and the girl (don't know her name) practically kicks Percy's butt in one of the early scenes. In Diary of a Wimpy Kid, there are two main girl parts, one who kick's the wimpy kid's butt, and the other who is portrayed as the school newspaper reporter who is smarter than the guys.

This is prob all very good for the girls self-esteem, but I worry about young boys' take on it... It's fine if both boys/girls are portrayed as equal, but they often teeter on the brink of making the girls stronger.

backslashbaby
04-17-2010, 08:59 AM
Look, I believe in "equality between the sexes", so I resent women being given special treatment "just because they're women". Yet a lot of authors and television producers keep doing this and portraying women as smarter, stronger, and more competent than the men, which to me isn't just unreal and unfair, it's sexist. So why do women keep being portrayed this way in fictional content? Is it some kind of rule or something?

Take out 'stronger' in your statement ^^^, and see if it's still problematic.

Or would it surprise you that I think women are quite often smarter and more competent than men? And vice versa.

So explain what's unreal and unfair about everything but 'stronger,' please.

Maybe it's not special treatment at all, and the special treatment that pretended men were always 'more' is just finally wearing off ;)

DwayneA
04-17-2010, 08:59 AM
the girl's name was Annabella

WildScribe
04-17-2010, 09:01 AM
I am smarter than most of the guys around me, and stronger than a good few, and I am still very attractive (one cool side effect of being a martial artist is a nicely toned body). Does that make me a bad role model for women because I might hurt boys' delicate self esteem? Puh-lease.

How about teaching your son that people should be seen as people, not as a gender. Some PEOPLE are just smarter, stronger, or faster than others.

maxmordon
04-17-2010, 09:05 AM
This makes me think a bit too much in Harrison Bergeron, you know, a world where everyone is meant to be average, nobody better than somebody so nobody would get angry about it.

HelloKiddo
04-17-2010, 09:10 AM
Seriously, this is starting to piss me off. Seriously? Buffy the Vampire Slayer annoys people because seeing a woman fight a man and win is "unrealistic" but watching Jean Claude van Damme, unarmed, fight twelve armed men and walk away with barely a scratch is realistic? Where are the threads about that?

Family Guy is offensive because Lois is smarter than Peter? Brian and Stewie are the smartest characters on the show.

I can name you plenty of shows with smart and strong male leads.

leahzero
04-17-2010, 09:20 AM
Seriously, this is starting to piss me off. Seriously? Buffy the Vampire Slayer annoys people because seeing a woman fight a man and win is "unrealistic" but watching Jean Claude van Damme, unarmed, fight twelve armed men and walk away with barely a scratch is realistic? Where are the threads about that?

Family Guy is offensive because Lois is smarter than Peter? Brian and Stewie are the smartest characters on the show.

I can name you plenty of shows with smart and strong male leads.

That's the problem with a male-dominated world. Many men, like the OP, and even women like the mom with sons, are probably not ill-intentioned, but are completely oblivious to the fact that men are consistently and pervasively portrayed as stronger, smarter, more competent, and more (insert desirable quality here) than women in the vast majority of art. Women, in turn, are objectified either as sexual objects or material possessions. And until the past century or so, that's how it's been. That's a lot of cultural inertia to overcome.

They take examples like John Claude van Damme and countless other action heroes for granted, but single out exceptions to the rule like the female characters of Buffy and Family Guy (BTW, I wouldn't call Family Guy a portrayal of misandry--the women on the show are frequently just as dumb and selfish as the men; if anything, Family Guy is often equally ruthless to both sexes), and somehow turn these isolated cases into a defining statement about misandry.

It's pretty silly, but that's what happens when people have blinders on.

emandem
04-17-2010, 09:28 AM
...I was commenting only on recent kids' movies, btw. I want my sons to feel they are just as smart as the girls, BUT if a girl is smarter, all the power to her! My sons go to a co-ed school where I find it's nearly all girls heading up the school paper, student government, etc., although mine are involved.

I actually find most adult stuff still errs on the side of consistently making men dominant.

willietheshakes
04-17-2010, 09:36 AM
Okay, I know a lot of people (especially the girls) are going to call me sexist and misogynistic (I'm not)

Care to take another run at it?

And while you're at it, care to cite more than a couple of cartoons -- maybe a book or two, say -- for your source of this pervasive problem, which you see "a lot of authors" engaged in?

willietheshakes
04-17-2010, 09:39 AM
...I was commenting only on recent kids' movies, btw. I want my sons to feel they are just as smart as the girls, BUT if a girl is smarter, all the power to her! My sons go to a co-ed school where I find it's nearly all girls heading up the school paper, student government, etc., although mine are involved.


So you're looking for movies to fulfill some sort of theraputic mandate that's at odds with the reality that your sons experience every day?

I'm of the opinion that self-esteem shouldn't come as a result of being "better" than someone else (irregardless of gender), but as a direct result of having confidence in oneself and ones own abilities.

Underscoring that: Hermione, in Harry Potter, is not by nature smarter than Ron & Harry. In fact, she is show relentlessly studying (and stealing time -- literally -- to get more of an education), while Harry and Ron are shown getting their homework done at the last minute, focussing on sports, etc, etc, instead. The embrace of education makes her a positive role model for both genders: hard work DOES get results.

HelloKiddo
04-17-2010, 10:11 AM
Underscoring that: Hermione, in Harry Potter, is not by nature smarter than Ron & Harry. In fact, she is show relentlessly studying (and stealing time -- literally -- to get more of an education), while Harry and Ron are shown getting their homework done at the last minute, focussing on sports, etc, etc, instead. The embrace of education makes her a positive role model for both genders: hard work DOES get results.

Yes. Dumbloedore is the smartest character in the books, not Hermione. Harry and Voldermort are the stars. Most of the strong characters/main roles go to men, so it was an odd choice of a book with "unrealistic superwomen" because there is one strong female character in a lead role.

gothicangel
04-17-2010, 10:54 AM
At the heart of the OP is stereotyping of BOTH genders. Don't stereotype Dwayne write the world as you really see it. For example, one of my main female characters: a strong and highly intelligent career woman, but her world crumbles when her son disappears. She can feel her strength buckling under the weight.

Dwayne does have a point about modern female representations. Take Brigit Jones that stereotype drives me mad! It's been absorbed into culture, and according to society as a single 28 year old woman, I'm desperate to find a man so much I'm depressed.

I'm NOT!

Shakesbear
04-17-2010, 11:38 AM
Okay, I know a lot of people (especially the girls) are going to call me sexist and misogynistic (I'm not), but this is an issue that I can't understand and that I feel must be brought up and discussed.

In fiction and television, they always seem to portray women as being smarter, stronger, and more competent than men. In cartoons such as the Simpsons and Family Guy, the fathers and sons are idiots while the mothers and daughters are much smarter and intelligent.

Also, I've seen women do things on tv that I consider "unrealistic". For example, in one episode of the "Flintstones", Wilma punches out a champion boxer with one punch. Come on, that's impossible! And in one episode of "Recess" where the kids go to a fair, a big strong boy doesn't hit the bell at a "Test Your Strength" attraction, but then a small girl comes up and she has no trouble ringing the bell. I knew that this was "impossible".

Look, I believe in "equality between the sexes", so I resent women being given special treatment "just because they're women". Yet a lot of authors and television producers keep doing this and portraying women as smarter, stronger, and more competent than the men, which to me isn't just unreal and unfair, it's sexist. So why do women keep being portrayed this way in fictional content? Is it some kind of rule or something?

Why is that impossible? When my brother had boxing lessons so did I. When one of my bro's friends repeatedly pissed me off I told him he would get clouted if he did not leave me alone - he didn't and I did. He was out cold. He was bigger than me and stronger than me and he was arrogant and ignorant about how strength can be used.

What do you mean by "equality between the sexes"? Physical equality? Equality in law? Laws can be passed to eliminate discrimination - but they will not always work and there are cultures in our world where there will always be inequality. How we operate as human beings is about the mindset we have as individuals. If we have self esteem, confidence and are broad minded enough to see the world as it is then we should not need to think about being 'equal'.

J K Rowlings portrayal of Hermoine as studious and hard working is a reflection of the general trend in English schools where the girls do work harder than the boys and have a more realistic outlook on life.

There is no rule that says women should be treated differently just old fashioned concepts of how women should be perceived. If you write about what you know and you do it honestly without the outmoded and perverted view of women I think you will do it well because your post shows, imo, that you are aware of many aspects of society that are unjust.

Marian Perera
04-17-2010, 12:59 PM
one more thing I'd like to know is how I should portray my female characters in my works of fiction. I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and go outside, only to find a huge crowd of angry feminists outside my house.

Assuming your works of fiction will have a large readership, and assuming that they will somehow have more of an impact on people girls feminists than, say, the Gor novels.

kurzon
04-17-2010, 01:13 PM
one more thing I'd like to know is how I should portray my female characters in my works of fiction. I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and go outside, only to find a huge crowd of angry feminists outside my house.

Portray them as people. Each and every person brings a unique set of qualities to the table. Some will be competent, some will be strong, some will be cowards, some will be sly.

As for Wilma Flintstone - have your humour sensor checked. It's supposed to be unrealistic, to make it funny.

Don't worry about being mobbed by angry feminists if you portray all the females in your book as incompetent, weak, obsessed with their appearance, and only serving to function as a trophy or annoyance for more fully fleshed out characters. This will hardly make your book stand out from the myriad others which do exactly the same.

seun
04-17-2010, 04:13 PM
A tenner says this (bizarre) thread is locked by this time tomorrow.

dpaterso
04-17-2010, 04:35 PM
I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and go outside, only to find a huge crowd of angry feminists outside my house.
As long as they don't come armed with torches and pitchforks, you could always look upon this as a great opportunity to meet women.

(Tempted to take seun's bet... especially since I can unlock threads...)

-Derek

Noah Body
04-17-2010, 04:37 PM
Curse you for revealing one of my secrets!

seun
04-17-2010, 04:57 PM
(Tempted to take seun's bet... especially since I can unlock threads...)

-Derek

Want to split the tenner?

Toothpaste
04-17-2010, 05:01 PM
While I agree w/ most of the posters above, I do see Dwayne's point. Maybe it's just b/c I have sons, but I've noticed a trend in kids' books/movies lately...

I took my sons to see Harry Potter, and the girl Hermione in that flick is definitely smarter than the guys. I took them to see Percy Jackson, and the girl (don't know her name) practically kicks Percy's butt in one of the early scenes. In Diary of a Wimpy Kid, there are two main girl parts, one who kick's the wimpy kid's butt, and the other who is portrayed as the school newspaper reporter who is smarter than the guys.

This is prob all very good for the girls self-esteem, but I worry about young boys' take on it... It's fine if both boys/girls are portrayed as equal, but they often teeter on the brink of making the girls stronger.

And yet in all these films it's the boy who winds up prevailing, and the girl winds up being secondary to the man. In Harry Potter, it's Harry who always saves the day, he always solves that last dilemma with both brains and brawn, in Percy Jackson Percy winds up being the stronger fighter with the big last battle. Haven't seen/read Wimpy Kid (but from what I understand, it's also about a boy). Have you seen How To Train Your Dragon? Again a seemingly more talented girl is pitted against the "pathetic" boy, except it's the boy who realises the secret about dragons, who winds up defeating the evil at the end of the film.

Isn't it interesting the films you list as being bad demonstrations for boys all have boys as the main character? Seriously, aside from the Disney Princesses, tell me a recent adventure film for kids that had a girl as the main character?

Also don't forget that all these films are portrayed as seen through the main character's eyes, and so the girls are often considered ridiculous (the boys making fun of Hermione constantly studying). So even though they are strong, they still aren't "cool".

While you may think that the role models in movies today are bad for boys because there is always some stereotypical strong girl in them, you have to realise that actually, girls STILL don't get to be the heroes, and that in a weird way they are represented almost in the same way as they used to when they were princesses to be saved: as little more than props to the male characters lacking any three dimensionality.

Parametric
04-17-2010, 05:04 PM
Don't worry about being mobbed by angry feminists if you portray all the females in your book as incompetent, weak, obsessed with their appearance, and only serving to function as a trophy or annoyance for more fully fleshed out characters. This will hardly make your book stand out from the myriad others which do exactly the same.

You win the internets. :LilLove:

scarletpeaches
04-17-2010, 05:08 PM
Dwayne should marry Stephenie Meyer, then.

Woo! I just played the Twilight card! LOCK THREAD! :D

aadams73
04-17-2010, 05:08 PM
While you may think that the role models in movies today are bad for boys because there is always some stereotypical strong girl in them, you have to realise that actually, girls STILL don't get to be the heroes, and that in a weird way they are represented almost in the same way as they used to when they were princesses to be saved: as little more than props to the male characters lacking any three dimensionality.

Pan's Labyrinth and The Golden Compass both have girls as the heroines.

Although, yes, they are certainly the exception.

shadowwalker
04-17-2010, 05:16 PM
I think my problem with the portrayal of women on tv (and I've said this on other threads where this keeps being brought up) is that they can't seem to make strong women without making them Amazons. Or emotional robots. Or Amazon robots who, after a series of "they should've expected that" traumas, become totally unthinking emotional blobs.

I don't like the way most people are portrayed on tv - it's all surface, like cardboard characters in a book. I'm too annoyed with most of them to care whether they're still breathing at the end of the episode. Which is why I only have it on for the white noise - I typically have no idea what show is on...

Linda Adams
04-17-2010, 06:17 PM
And yet in all these films it's the boy who winds up prevailing, and the girl winds up being secondary to the man. In Harry Potter, it's Harry who always saves the day, he always solves that last dilemma with both brains and brawn, in Percy Jackson Percy winds up being the stronger fighter with the big last battle. Haven't seen/read Wimpy Kid (but from what I understand, it's also about a boy). Have you seen How To Train Your Dragon? Again a seemingly more talented girl is pitted against the "pathetic" boy, except it's the boy who realises the secret about dragons, who winds up defeating the evil at the end of the film.


One of the most disappointing books I read was a romantic suspense novel where the woman character had trained to be a expert marksman and had a black belt in karate (to qualify this, I've had karate and judo myself and have fired a rifle). The whole book was spent showing how competent she was, which was why the bad guy was drawn to her, being as it was a challenge. He kidnapped her in a way that fit in with how the story and her skills developed. And then, she turned completely stupid and didn't do anything to help herself--for the sole purpose of having the male romantic lead rescue her. The sad part is that the book was written by a woman.

Phaeal
04-17-2010, 07:01 PM
Starbuck, the two Sharon-Eights, and Laura Roslin kick as much butt (in their various ways) as any of the Galactica boys. Caprica Six had to write the algorithms for Baltar's defense mainframe programs. The Threes are so kick-butt they used to be Xena! Plus the featured hybrid is female.

But the boys get equivalent time in the spotlight, and the most horrifying "villain" is Admiral Cain, a woman who sanctions the execution of civilians and the torture and rape of prisoners.

I nominate BSG as winner of the gender balance award.

;)

Jamesaritchie
04-17-2010, 07:46 PM
All you can do is write the truth as you see it, and not watch movies or read books that you find silly.

That's what I do.

As Tim Taylor used to say, they can think what they like, and it's just too damn bad that men rule the world.

Lady Ice
04-17-2010, 08:10 PM
You want strong female characters, read Greek Tragedy.

gothicangel
04-17-2010, 09:56 PM
Representations of women in Disney.

That deserves a whole locked thread of it's own. :D

aadams73
04-17-2010, 10:09 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't worry about it that much? To me, pretty much anything goes in story telling, as long as it's believable within the confines of that story.

I don't feel attacked or suppressed if a guy is the hero. Would I like to see more strong female characters? Definitely. But I really don't care that much so long as I'm being entertained. I want good characters regardless of their sex.

I don't even have a problem with Disney princesses. And I'm okay with guys being represented as physically stronger than me because they typically are. That's biology. Smarter? Sometimes but not always.

Maybe I'm just a disgrace to my sex because I just don't really worry about this stuff. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had kids or if I'd been born in a time when women were much more suppressed.

Shadow_Ferret
04-17-2010, 10:16 PM
Also, I've seen women do things on tv that I consider "unrealistic". For example, in one episode of the "Flintstones", Wilma punches out a champion boxer with one punch. Come on, that's impossible! And in one episode of "Recess" where the kids go to a fair, a big strong boy doesn't hit the bell at a "Test Your Strength" attraction, but then a small girl comes up and she has no trouble ringing the bell. I knew that this was "impossible".


First thing, you really need to relax and just accept that "it's only television." It's all for FUN and if you start taking it seriously, you'll just get ulcers.

Second, those bell things are not really tests of STRENGTH so much as tests of LEVERAGE. And yes, a small girl could conceivable ring the bell if she threw enough leverage behind the swing and hit the machine in just the right place. And yes, I have seen strong men not ring the bell.

Also, men are the last minority that it's ok to make fun.

Mr Flibble
04-17-2010, 10:19 PM
I don't feel attacked or suppressed if a guy is the hero. Would I like to see more strong female characters? Definitely. But I really don't care that much so long as I'm being entertained. I want good characters regardless of their sex.

This.

Phaeal
04-17-2010, 10:27 PM
Representations of women in Disney.

That deserves a whole locked thread of it's own. :D

Or even "its own." And I get to mention it, because I already called dibs on the "its/it's" square foot.

;)

As for the Disney women, I'm very fond of Mrs. Incredible and her daughter Violet. And my very favorite of all, the fabulous Edna Mode. And Ariel. She's spunky, sings a mean song and has a lovely tail.

Claudia Gray
04-17-2010, 10:34 PM
Starbuck, the two Sharon-Eights, and Laura Roslin kick as much butt (in their various ways) as any of the Galactica boys. Caprica Six had to write the algorithms for Baltar's defense mainframe programs. The Threes are so kick-butt they used to be Xena! Plus the featured hybrid is female.

But the boys get equivalent time in the spotlight, and the most horrifying "villain" is Admiral Cain, a woman who sanctions the execution of civilians and the torture and rape of prisoners.

I nominate BSG as winner of the gender balance award.

;)

BSG had gender balance to start with, but it went crazy sexist by the end. I hated where they had virtually all of the female characters end up as opposed to the male characters.

Although I don't care book-to-book about male lead characters, male heroes -- I love plenty of them -- the overall imbalance IS worth looking at. We internalize the messages we get from media lots more than we sometimes imagine. There's this underlying assumption in pop culture that women should pay attention to male characters, but men shouldn't bother paying attention to women characters; as long as that's true, something is wrong.

gothicangel
04-17-2010, 11:24 PM
Or even "its own." And I get to mention it, because I already called dibs on the "its/it's" square foot.

;)
.

Sorry, these ten hours days are playing havoc with my grammar. :D

I always have wondered what happens in the marriages between Disney Prince and Princess?

Mara
04-18-2010, 12:04 AM
This is actually a major problem. But it's not feminist women who are causing it, generally.

Most of the "men are stupid" shows are based on the old idea that women are only good at one thing (manipulating men). And they're based on the idea that the male lead should be funny, and that the funniest thing a male lead could be is a pathetic loser who can't control his woman.

The "men are weaker than women" thing doesn't exist. What you're seeing are visual gags, which are jokes based on an inversion of "reality." When you see a small woman knocking out a big man, usually it's a visual gag, equivalent to how older cartoons made people laugh by showing people walking up walls and on ceilings. "Everybody knows that's not real," so it's just freakin' hilarious in their minds.

Same thing with more mature jokes about the idea of women raping men or physically abusing them. Women can't be taken seiously by sexists even when we're horrible abusers, and their male victims are equally dehumanized and mocked.

Patriarchy hurts men too. (And matriarchy hurts women.) Oh, and women can engage in patriarchal behavior as well. Being a trans woman who was once assumed to be a feminine man, I was exposed to it fairly often when other women made fun of me for not being "manly," as if that meant I was weak.

You want to stop seeing this anti-male stuff in the media? Then fight against patriarchy, because that's where the idea that it was funny came from. (Matriarchy is also wrong, but has nothing to do with this, nor do feminists.)

Medievalist
04-18-2010, 12:35 AM
Okay, I know a lot of people (especially the girls) are going to call me sexist and misogynistic (I'm not), but this is an issue that I can't understand and that I feel must be brought up and discussed.

In fiction and television, they always seem to portray women as being smarter, stronger, and more competent than men. In cartoons such as the Simpsons and Family Guy, the fathers and sons are idiots while the mothers and daughters are much smarter and intelligent.

You're seriously bringing up cartoons to talk about characterization of women?

Dude, get real.

And for heaven's sake, read more.

And get out and live life a little, too. Don't base perceptions of life on fiction--especially if you want to write fiction.

Ms Hollands
04-18-2010, 12:55 AM
Just curious, is that the only part of the Flintstones you find unrealistic?



no there are other parts, but if I discuss them, I'll be getting off-topic

Erm, have you missed the point of this? How can you include one scene from The Flintstones in youre list of unrealistic women when it's clear that no large part of the Flintstones is, in fact, realistic.

SWest
04-18-2010, 12:57 AM
Seriously? Always start where you began.


Okay, I know a lot of people (especially the girls) are going to call me sexist and misogynistic (I'm not), but this is an issue that I can't understand and that I feel must be brought up and discussed.



Dopey guys on TV are more often than not written by men. Cool women are also written by men (Josh Whedon, for example). The awful men and women portrayed on Desperate Housewives are all written by men.

Don't over think archetypes: they are in us, so they come out of us in our literature, music and art. Humor is meant to be over the top and outrageous. Granted, our culture does not really seem to understand this anymore. If you are not writing humor, don't get hung up on this genres' subtexts.

If men and women in Real Life are trying to relate to each other the way that composite characters relate to each other on TV, well, this explains a lot.

Sr. Esteban will freely attest that I am "smarter, stronger, and more competent".







Aaaaannd....this:


You're seriously bringing up cartoons to talk about characterization of women?

Dude, get real.

And for heaven's sake, read more.

And get out and live life a little, too. Don't base perceptions of life on fiction--esepecially if you want to write fiction.

Ms Hollands
04-18-2010, 01:00 AM
Okay, I know a lot of people (especially the girls) are going to call me sexist and misogynistic (I'm not), but this is an issue that I can't understand and that I feel must be brought up and discussed.



And I'm not racist because some of my best friends are black.

Truly, if you're asking this question without realising how many centuries of 'dumb women', 'blond women', and women portrayed purely as objects (still often the case today) in fiction and all sorts of media, you need to open your eyes. Be a woman for a day, then see how abnormal it is for women to be treated better, let alone equally, to men. At least we get some respect from cartoons. How sad it often doesn't extend further.

I'll probably be called an angry lesbian for saying that.

Ms Hollands
04-18-2010, 01:03 AM
one more thing I'd like to know is how I should portray my female characters in my works of fiction. I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and go outside, only to find a huge crowd of angry feminists outside my house.


Well obviously, all women are the same, so they can be written in whichever stereotype fits your need.

scarletpeaches
04-18-2010, 01:07 AM
The angry feminists won't be outside your house, Dwayne. Once their husbands find out what they're up to, they'll be back in the kitchen quick-smart, cooking nice steak dinners for their men.

Jersey Chick
04-18-2010, 01:10 AM
Also, I've seen women do things on tv that I consider "unrealistic". For example, in one episode of the "Flintstones", Wilma punches out a champion boxer with one punch. Come on, that's impossible! And in one episode of "Recess" where the kids go to a fair, a big strong boy doesn't hit the bell at a "Test Your Strength" attraction, but then a small girl comes up and she has no trouble ringing the bell. I knew that this was "impossible". Oh, sure - but there's no suspension of disbelief when MacGuyver builds an atom bomb from two paper clips, some chewing gum, and a clove of garlic. That could happen in real life. Riiight...

katiemac
04-18-2010, 01:34 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't worry about it that much? To me, pretty much anything goes in story telling, as long as it's believable within the confines of that story.

I don't really worry about it, unless it's the same stereotype over and over -- like the idiot husband who doesn't know how to clean, in household commercials. Get a new idea already.

However, looking back, I do give Buffy an awful lot of credit to my own perspective. I watched that show from when I was eleven to seventeen, some fairly significant growing-up years, and I don't think I can realistically say it didn't have an effect on how I view myself. Even before that, I read a heck of a lot of female superheroes from manga. I could be a different person if I hadn't read those books or watched that series; who knows.

willietheshakes
04-18-2010, 01:53 AM
So, when someone starts a contentious thread (in the wrong forum) and then completely disappears, what's the accepted length of time that needs to pass with their absence before they can be accused of trolling?

Chasing the Horizon
04-18-2010, 02:29 AM
All you can do is write the truth as you see it, and not watch movies or read books that you find silly.

That's what I do.

As Tim Taylor used to say, they can think what they like, and it's just too damn bad that men rule the world.
*does Google search* Funny, all the women involved in the governments of the super powers which rule the world have NOT disappeared. *looks up Mac's account* Nope, the woman who rules our own mini-world of AW hasn't disappeared either.

I know the woman who rules my household is alive and well (cause she's typing this post) and the women who rule the factory where my mother works had better show up on Monday.

Men have done everything they possibly could to keep women from becoming empowered, including acts of horrible violence and rewriting/erasing massive parts of history. And it STILL hasn't worked. You KNOW women are in power. That's why you feel the need to post your misogynistic crap over and over and over again. Of course, you have freedom of speech and you can post whatever you want (unless the woman who rules AW decides you can't), but I will keep correcting you every single time.


I have nothing to say to Dwayne because others have already pointed out the errors of his thinking with more grace and intelligence than I ever could.

MacAllister
04-18-2010, 02:29 AM
Yeah. Gonna lock this one as flamebait, at least for now. If one of the Roundtable mods wants to re-open it later, we'll go on from there -- but I wouldn't bet anyone wants to.

Soccer Mom
04-18-2010, 02:56 AM
Actually, I was just checking back to see if things had reached "flammable" yet. We'll leave things locked.