Obama grants hospital visitation, power of attorney rights to gay and lesbian couples

Alpha Echo · Apr 16, 2010

I didn't see this thread yet, but it may be out there.

Obama grants hospital visitation, power of attorney rights to gay and lesbian couples

The White House issued a memo Thursday directing all hospitals that accept Medicare and Medicaid to end discrimination against same-sex couples, thereby granting full visitation and medical power of attorney rights to gay and lesbian partners at the vast majority of hospitals nation-wide.

I think this is wonderful news, but I have a question. My mother is very much against gays' right to marriage. I have argued with her many times over it, but I have a question.

She claims she's never understood the whole hospital thing - like Obama giving rights for homosexuals to visit their partners. She thought that if you say you're family, you're allowed in. Also, she thinks you can name anyone power of attorney. Therefore, she thinks it's a poor argument for homosexual marriage.

Is that true? Before Obama brought this up, could you name anyone power of attorney?

I'm sure some of you have stories of either you or friends being discriminated when trying to visit their partner in the hospital. I'm just interested in hearing them - and it relates to the recent news, so I think I'm good in PC&E.

Don · Apr 16, 2010

Any improvement in individual rights is a plus. However, I wonder if this might be a lollipop offered to the QLTBG community in an effort to get them to sit down and shut up. It's far short of full equality for same-sex partnerships.

Alpha Echo · Apr 16, 2010

I thought that too. It's just a band-aid. Why can't he just come out and give them full rights all ready? I guess he's trying to keep everyone mollified.

darkprincealain · Apr 16, 2010

The application of this prior to this was pretty subjective, depending on hospital policy. At more lax hospitals all you have to do is answer yes to the question of whether you are a family member, in my experience. Others might turn you away, even if they need someone to make healthcare decisions in the case of an incapacitated patient. Not necessarily holding with the hippocratic oath, IMO.

IANAL. That said, no, you cannot just verbally name anyone power of attorney. I've always been taught you need to get a document for that.

The whole rigamarole of getting even approximately equal but subordinate rights does not really hold with your mother's argument in the slightest. I'll have to come back and put up a linky after work that matches all the advice they've given me for if I do have a boyfriend in the future. And forget about it if you are going overseas. I've been told not to leave the country without a paper version of power of attorney for both parties, unless you're going to Europe in which case it might not matter, but you'd still be wise to check with a law enforcement official or attorney in that jurisdiction.

Especially in the case of a couple where one person doesn't have any living relatives, for example.

So verbal answers aren't always easy. IMO, this is a right step, but I'm afraid DADT paired with this would have mollified me a little more. I don't think Obama is going to address marriage anytime soon, his position seems to be against that. So I'll forgive him for not going that far, as he at least would be consistent with his words then. And, I'm not for civil unions. We've seen how well separate but equal worked in the past. Why go through that again?

Michael Wolfe · Apr 16, 2010

Alpha Echo said:
Also, she thinks you can name anyone power of attorney. Therefore, she thinks it's a poor argument for homosexual marriage.

I'm not understanding the connection with marriage. In this article...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36580493/ns/us_news-washington_post

on the second page, this guy Peter Sprigg, a senior fellow for policy studies at the Family Research Council, says "The memorandum undermines the definition of marriage."

That's an actual quote from the article. Can someone explain this? It seems like anytime any kind of gay rights issue comes up, the argument against it involves protecting marriage, even if marriage has nothing to do with it.

Edit: Alpha Echo, I guess the only connection with your mother's position against gay marriage might be that she thinks it's not necessary to have that in order to have things like the hospital visitation rights, etc. Is that the part I was missing?

Edit: Just to amend one other thing: perhaps it's hyperbolic to say this happens anytime a gay rights issue comes up (the marriage issue), but it did in this particular instance I'm citing.

Alpha Echo · Apr 16, 2010

Michael Wolfe said:
Edit: Alpha Echo, I guess the only connection with your mother's position against gay marriage might be that she thinks it's not necessary to have that in order to have things like the hospital visitation rights, etc. Is that the part I was missing?

Edit: Just to amend one other thing: perhaps it's hyperbolic to say this happens anytime a gay rights issue comes up (the marriage issue), but it did in this particular instance I'm citing.

I'll check out the link in a moment. My mom is against gay marriage b/c of what she believes the Bible says. When I've brought up this part of the argument - the difficulties that gays have taking care of their partners when necessary - she argues and says that everyone's always been able to name anyone power of attorney, etc.

Does that make sense?

Alpha Echo · Apr 16, 2010

Michael Wolfe said:
I'm not understanding the connection with marriage. In this article...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36580493/ns/us_news-washington_post

Oooh, I'm not sure there is a connection. I was just thinking that maybe it would lead to marriage? Or is Obama hoping to pacify gay activists enough that they'll leave the issue of marriage alone for awhile?

Celia Cyanide · Apr 16, 2010

Alpha Echo said:
She claims she's never understood the whole hospital thing - like Obama giving rights for homosexuals to visit their partners. She thought that if you say you're family, you're allowed in.

Clearly, I do not understand your mother's position, because I am a very big supporter of same sex marriage. So maybe that's why this doesn't make sense to me.

Is she saying that a same sex partner of a person in the hospital should lie and say that they are family, so that they will be allowed to visit them, because hospitals don't really verify that?

Celia Cyanide · Apr 16, 2010

Alpha Echo said:
Oooh, I'm not sure there is a connection. I was just thinking that maybe it would lead to marriage? Or is Obama hoping to pacify gay activists enough that they'll leave the issue of marriage alone for awhile?

I don't know. It reminds me of when Clinton first allowed gays in the military, but only with DADT. It's not good enough, but it's a small step in the right direction.

Michael Wolfe · Apr 16, 2010

Alpha Echo said:
Oooh, I'm not sure there is a connection. I was just thinking that maybe it would lead to marriage? Or is Obama hoping to pacify gay activists enough that they'll leave the issue of marriage alone for awhile?

Yeah, it's somewhat confusing. On the one hand, the claim is that it's part of a broader effort to undermine marriage. That may be valid to some extent, since many people who are supporting this policy also support broader gay rights.

This Peter Spriggs guy says Obama's pandering to a "radical special interest group", and that he questions Obama's motives for the policy.

But here's the thing: in the actual quote (the one I cited earlier), he doesn't say that the "real" motivation for this policy is because Obama wants to do other things that might threaten marriage; he says the memorandum itself undermines "the definition of marriage."

So it seems like this guy is not really coherent.

Mara · Apr 16, 2010

Alpha Echo said:
She claims she's never understood the whole hospital thing - like Obama giving rights for homosexuals to visit their partners. She thought that if you say you're family, you're allowed in. Also, she thinks you can name anyone power of attorney. Therefore, she thinks it's a poor argument for homosexual marriage.

She's completely wrong. Laws vary by state, but many state constitutions reserve certain things for marriage alone (not even civil unions can grant them). And lots of LGBT people have been unable to see their loved ones while they were dying; you can't just go in because you say you're family, even if you've been unofficially married for twenty years, even with special permission, etc.

In fact, there was a big deal in Rhode Island recently about an attempt to ban LGB people from even posting an obituary for their deceased partners in the newspaper, although I don't know the end result.

Romantic Heretic · Apr 16, 2010

Good for him. *applauds*

Torgo · Apr 16, 2010

Peter Sprigg and the Family Research Council are an anti-gay pressure group who also push intelligent design, so basically your average homophobic bigot fucktards. I wouldn't bother looking for coherent thought from the likes of them.

Michael Wolfe · Apr 16, 2010

Mara said:
In fact, there was a big deal in Rhode Island recently about an attempt to ban LGB people from even posting an obituary for their deceased partners in the newspaper, although I don't know the end result.

Can you clarify this? When say you "ban", do you mean that gays already had this right, and people were trying to take it away? Or do you mean that gays never had this right, and the people who tried to change this were met with opposition?

Either way, I think that's absolutely shameful, but I'd still be interested in knowing which it was.

Mara · Apr 16, 2010

Michael Wolfe said:
Can you clarify this? When say you "ban", do you mean that gays already had this right, and people were trying to take it away? Or do you mean that gays never had this right, and the people who tried to change this were met with opposition?

Either way, I think that's absolutely shameful, but I'd still be interested in knowing which it was.

I couldn't quite remember, because it had frustrated me enough at the time that I blocked it out.

Okay, gay people didn't have that right, but a bill was almost passed that allowed in, and then the governor vetoed it in a typical act of homophobic spite.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/Carcieri_vetoes_11-11-09_KFGDHKT_v15.3b3baf2.html

Alpha Echo · Apr 16, 2010

Celia Cyanide said:
Clearly, I do not understand your mother's position, because I am a very big supporter of same sex marriage. So maybe that's why this doesn't make sense to me.

Is she saying that a same sex partner of a person in the hospital should lie and say that they are family, so that they will be allowed to visit them, because hospitals don't really verify that?

I don't understand her position either, because I disagree as well. She just thinks that, I think anyway, that same sex partners have the same rights if the paperwork is done to make them power of attorney, and she thinks because she's never had an issue going to visit someone in the hospital (granted, it hasn't been when someone who wasn't her family either by blood or marriage was dying), then homosexuals wouldn't have any issues either.

Michael Wolfe said:
Either way, I think that's absolutely shameful, but I'd still be interested in knowing which it was.

I agree.

Mara said:
Okay, gay people didn't have that right, but a bill was almost passed that allowed in, and then the governor vetoed it in a typical act of homophobic spite.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/Carcieri_vetoes_11-11-09_KFGDHKT_v15.3b3baf2.html

It's disgusting. I don't understand why everyone can't have the same rights.

I'm a Christian. I believe in God as well. But we're all human, and we should all have the same rights to our loved ones, no matter what race, religion, or sexual orientation. It really sickens me, which is obviously why I've fought with my mother over this issue.

She even goes so far as to say "What will come next if they allow homosexuals to marry? Will we be able to marry donkeys next?"

Seriously??? Ugh, sorry, thinking about her and her stupid arguments is riling me up.

Michael Wolfe · Apr 16, 2010

Alpha Echo said:
She even goes so far as to say "What will come next if they allow homosexuals to marry? Will we be able to marry donkeys next?"

This sort of thing reminds me of a joke from Saturday Night Live. There was this assemblage of pundits on Fox news, and one guy said something like, "The problem is, if we give equal rights to gays and lesbians, soon we'll be giving equal rights to all Americans, and then where will we be?"

Plot Device · Apr 16, 2010

WHY THE RIGHT TO VISIT YOUR PARTNER IN HOSPITAL SHOULD BE INALIENABLE

A good friend of mine "Diana", an adult woman with two kids, has a 69 year old mother (I'll call her "Kathy") who has been out of the closet for over 20 years now. She and her mom have a very good relationship.

My friend Diana told me a few months back about how her mother Kathy had been in a committed monogamous relationship with anogther woman (I'll call her "Julie") for years. But then about 5 years ago, Julie came down with cancer. As Julie lay dying in the hospital, Julie's adult children refused to acknowledge that their mother was a lesbian. Thus they blocked Kathy from gaining any access to Julie's hospital room. It was a long slow, painful death stretching out for several months, and during those final three months, Kathy was never permitted to go to Julie's side. Kathy pleaded with Julie's adult children, and Julie also pleaded with her adult children, but Julie's adult children wouldn't budge on it. Then, when the funeral itself took place, Kathy was banned from it.

This is one of the most tragic stories I have ever heard. And it is sadly far more common than you might think.

Meanwhile there is a very subtle and important moment from the movie Four Weddings and a Funeral. The Viccar is ready to start the church-based memorial service there in the chapel on behalf of the deceased man. But BEFORE the memorial service begins, the Viccar takes the time to say "Before we begin..." which was his way of saying "this thing we're about to do right now where this guy gets up and reads a poem is NOT part of the OFFICIAL funeral service, so please don't thank the family of the deceased for the lovely poem you are about to hear, nor should you believe for even one minute that the Church has anything to do with this." And when he introduces the man who reads the poem, he refers to that man with the vague euphemism of his being nothing more than "Garret's closest friend."

Here it is on YouTube, (perfectly safe for work):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g46xJWoEXdQ

This scene is, I think, very representative of how most instances unfold where the survivng family denies the deceased's homosexuality. Although, in this scene --which shows us the tell-tale signs of group denial of this man's true role in the deceased's life-- the collective treatment of this particular surviving partner is far more kind than many other gay people traditionally experience.

::ETA::

The only time access should be denied is if there's obvious evidence of domestic abuse, and if potential for contiued harm is likely. And that's true of ALL couples, not just gay couples.

Alpha Echo · Apr 16, 2010

Plot Device said:
WHY THE RIGHT TO VISIT YOUR PARTNER IN HOSPITAL SHOULD BE INALIENABLE

A good friend of mine "Diana", an adult woman with two kids, has a 69 year old mother (I'll call her "Kathy") who has been out of the closet for over 20 years now. She and her mom have a very god relationship.

My friend Diana told me a few months back about how her mother Kathy had been in a committed monogamous relationship with anogther woman (I'll call her "Julie") for years. But then about 5 years ago, Julie came down with cancer. As Julie lay dying in the hospital, Julie's adult children refused to acknowledge that their mother was a lesbian. Thus they blocked Kathy from gaining any access to Julie's hospital room. It was a long slow, painful death stretching out for several months, and during those final three months, Kathy was never permitted to go to Julie's side. Kathy pleaded with Julie's adult children, and Julie also pleaded with her adult children, but Julie's adult children wouldn't budge on it. Then, when the funeral itself took place, Kathy was banned from it.

This is one of the most tragic stories I have ever heard. And it is sadly far more common than you might think.

::ETA::

The only time access should be denied is if there's obvious evidence of domestic abuse, and if potential for contiued harm is likely. And that's true of ALL couples, not just gay couples.

That's so awful. The story brought tears to my eyes - I'm oddly emotional today. Okay that's a lie, I'm always emotional, but still. Imagining how much I love my SO and imagining that I was banned from his hospital room as he lay dying and then from the funeral...that should happen to NO ONE. I'm sharing that story with my mother.

And I agree with your ETA, of course. That goes for everyone.

Michael Wolfe · Apr 16, 2010

Plot Device, that's an awful story. You say that Julie herself wanted Kathy to visit her. Why is it that the children have more control over who visits Julie than Julie herself?

Does that make ANY sense at all?

shadowwalker · Apr 16, 2010

What I can't understand in "Julie's" case is why the doctors complied with the dingbat children's wishes. Was "Julie" incompetent? Unconscious? She should have had the right to any and all visitors she wished.

Alpha Echo · Apr 16, 2010

shadowwalker said:
What I can't understand in "Julie's" case is why the doctors complied with the dingbat children's wishes. Was "Julie" incompetent? Unconscious? She should have had the right to any and all visitors she wished.

This is probably what my mother will say. I sent her that story. She's going to get all angry with me now, but it's not like we've ever seen eye-to-eye. I'm the black sheep.

*Derail* She got mad and hurt b/c I posted a bunch of pictures of my soon-to-be stepdaughter and none of her.

*End derail*

Michael Wolfe · Apr 16, 2010

shadowwalker said:
What I can't understand in "Julie's" case is why the doctors complied with the dingbat children's wishes. Was "Julie" incompetent? Unconscious? She should have had the right to any and all visitors she wished.

According to the story at least, Julie couldn't have been unable to communicate her wishes, because the story says Julie pleaded with her children, and that they didn't budge.

Alpha Echo · Apr 16, 2010

Oh...duh. I read that and didn't compute for some reason. That's so awful. I can't imagine my mother pleading with me to see someone she loves and not letting her! How cold and heartless!

Celia Cyanide · Apr 16, 2010

Alpha Echo said:
I don't understand her position either, because I disagree as well. She just thinks that, I think anyway, that same sex partners have the same rights if the paperwork is done to make them power of attorney, and she thinks because she's never had an issue going to visit someone in the hospital (granted, it hasn't been when someone who wasn't her family either by blood or marriage was dying), then homosexuals wouldn't have any issues either.

That is what I thought she meant. However, one thing she hasn't considered is that homosexuals have to deal with something she never will--homophobia.

Say I work in a hospital, and some guy comes in and wants to see another dude. I suspect it's his significant other. And I don't like gay people. I don't have to let him in. He's not family, and he can't prove he is.

Or, let's say, I have no problem with gay people, but dude's parents have a major problem with dude being gay and won't let the guy come in. If they tell me not to let the guy in, I can't, and there really isn't anything the patient or his significant other can do about that.

This is something I would never have to deal with as a woman in a straight marriage. If my husband's parents hated me, they couldn't stop me from visiting him in the hospital. And if someone who worked at the hospital had a personal grudge against me, they couldn't stop me from seeing my husband, either.

Obama grants hospital visitation, power of attorney rights to gay and lesbian couples

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