SF and a sense of scale

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Lhun

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After seeing yet another work of SF where absolutely any sense of scale is missing (specifically Mass Effect) i thought i'd write a little post on this.

What exactly do i mean by sense of scale? Everything. :p From the pitiful number of ships the so-called fleets in Mass Effect consist of to the hilarious mismatch of stated and seen distances in Andromeda.

My request to everyone writing SF is to think it through. Extrapolate. When writing a scene, don't copy from something similar in today's world, but try to put yourself really into the world you created.

For example the mentioned fleet sizes in Mass Effect. This is something where we can actually take a look at Star Wars. An ISD would approximately four times as big as a current-day Carrier. The US alone keeps nearly a dozen of them around, and can easily construct one in about five years. Imagine what the ouput of earth could be if the whole planet was unified and at western industrialisation levels. And now imagine talking about an interstellar civilization spanning multiple star systems. A SF novel where such civilizations fight wars with one or two dozen starships each as in StarTrek (Or Mass Effect) is like a Tom Clancy novel where people throw rocks at each other. Star Wars gets the scale of an interstellar civilization a little better, though the stated size is so huge that the conflicts we see are ridiculous again.
Sidenot: Yes, on could argue that a starship is more difficult to produce than a primitive wet ship. But production technology gets more sophisticated as well, and anyway, military technology doesn't get built at the highest possible level, but at the highest cost-efficient level.

My other example: Distances. Space is big. Really really big. So big, that it's nearly unimaginable. So, things that are not going to happen are for example people lying in wait to ambush you from behind a planet. (No, this is not about stealth in space:p) Or people running accidentally into planets or suns. Space is for all intents and purposes a perfect vacuum. Planets and even stars are just small statistical errors which would be ignored as errors of measurement if they weren't individually so big. We're used to thinking of stars and planets as huge balls, when they're just tiny spots. The distance between the sun and the earth for example is 12.500.000 times the diameter of the earth. Even the earth and the moon, despite being BFF, are separated by 32.000 times the diameter of the earth.

This applies to many other things, from speeds and energies to population numbers.

In conclusion, some authors who get these things (or some of them) right.
Peter F. Hamilton. Namely the commonwealth books. He manages really well to give the impression of an actually BIG interstellar civilization, spanning many widely different planets. (none of which are planets of hat people)

Neal Asher does the scale of warfare thing pretty well.

Iain Banks is probably the author who does this best of all. The scope of his books is visionary (and Orbitals are so much cooler than the Ringworld :D)
 

LOG

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...I could not extrapolate what you're issue was, could you make it shorter and simpler?
 

Polenth

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I tend to like correct scale the other way. Rather than realistic empires, showing realistic one system setups. It's a long way to Saturn, so you don't have to leave the solar system for isolated colonies, pirates and all the rest.
 

blacbird

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One of my favorite absurdities in SF films is fields of asteroids, like the one in Star Wars II, I think it was. Utter nonsense. In the real asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, you'd not actually be able to see one asteroid from another, except under rare circumstances.

Likewise, being able to hide in a nebula (Star Trek; Revenge of Khan; many other such things). Nebulae in space are way more tenuous than the best vacuum we can manufacture in a lab.

But I guess it all makes good story-telling.

caw
 

dpaterso

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Interesting post & good points, Lhun. Banks and Niven came to mind as I read it. :)

-Derek
 

Izz

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Iain Banks is probably the author who does this best of all. The scope of his books is visionary (and Orbitals are so much cooler than the Ringworld :D)
I need to try reading Banks again. I really struggle to get into his books and usually put them down after thirty or so pages. But i shall try again.
 

JimmyB27

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In conclusion, some authors who get these things (or some of them) right.
Peter F. Hamilton. Namely the commonwealth books. He manages really well to give the impression of an actually BIG interstellar civilization, spanning many widely different planets. (none of which are planets of hat people)

Neal Asher does the scale of warfare thing pretty well.

Iain Banks is probably the author who does this best of all. The scope of his books is visionary (and Orbitals are so much cooler than the Ringworld :D)
What about Adams?
The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy said:
"Space," it says, "is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space, listen..."

:D
 
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Zoombie

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To be fair, 99% of all space battles in the Mass Effect universe take place at realistically long ranges. The Battle of the Citadel was one of the 1% that take place near a Mass Relay, where you have a fleet defending and a fleet attacking, which leads to really close 'knifefight' ranges.

And in Mass Effect, there are treaties dictating how many warships any race could build, and the Council has to defend a huge portion of the galaxy. So the Citadel could only have so many ships defending it, even if they were seriously expecting an attack. And they sure weren't expecting an absurdly powerful super-dreadnought and a load of hyper-advanced geth ships to show up...I mean, the Council spends most of the game dismissing Shepard's warnings, so they didn't take him/her very seriously when she/he tried to warn them about Saren trying to invade.


Also, you have to give Mass Effect some credit, they do have scenes like this!
 
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shaldna

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the majority of the sci-fi i read is very well thought through, so i'm not really sure what your point is here.
 

Lhun

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And in Mass Effect, there are treaties dictating how many warships any race could build, and the Council has to defend a huge portion of the galaxy. So the Citadel could only have so many ships defending it, even if they were seriously expecting an attack.
The treaty is supposedly there to fix the ratio of ships of the species on the council it's no reason for those ridiculously low total numbers. I wasn't referring to what's visible on screen.
 

Ardent Kat

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It's comparing apples to oranges when using video games and movies as an example of what's wrong, and then using books as an example of it done right. Audio-visual media are allowed a little hand-waving in my opinion. Movies and games would probably be far less visually striking and have less tension during action scenes if things weren't so close together. Similarly, there's no sound in space, but that would be rather anticlimactic if all space combat were completely silent. Make a videogame where there are no sound effects whatsoever for combat or explosions in space, and you've got a unsalable game on your hands.

It would be more appropriate to compare books to other books (since this is a writing forum after all) as examples of this done right/wrong than comparing between mediums that have different audience expectations and storybuilding needs.
 

Lhun

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I mentioned StarWars as an example of getting it right(er) and the StarTrek franchise has books as well which still get it wrong.
Which still doesn't matter since it's not about realism (not that i don't care about that too) but about thinking big. It's about imagination. It's about not picking a scene which could happen here, today, and repainting it with a thin veneer of of SF by making the guns laser guns and the ships starships, but instead creating something that is truly as different as it should be. The technical limitations of different genres have nothing to do with this.
Banks and Niven came to mind as I read it. :)
Didn't see this at first, but i mostly agree. I just love Banks' writing. It's a perfect example that you can write SF and keep it interesting while still having consistent tech and universe, without infodumping or long explanations. All the work is being done in the background, and the books feel much more SF-ish than StarTrek with all its technobabble as a result.
Nivens books are interesting in scope as well, even if the concept of the Ringworld is admittedly quite silly. (Even ignoring the whole "The Ringworld isn't stable" thing)
 

Shadow_Ferret

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One of my favorite absurdities in SF films is fields of asteroids, like the one in Star Wars II, I think it was. Utter nonsense. In the real asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, you'd not actually be able to see one asteroid from another, except under rare circumstances.

So you've seen every asteroid field in the universe?
 

LOG

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It's comparing apples to oranges when using video games and movies as an example of what's wrong, and then using books as an example of it done right. Audio-visual media are allowed a little hand-waving in my opinion. Movies and games would probably be far less visually striking and have less tension during action scenes if things weren't so close together. Similarly, there's no sound in space, but that would be rather anticlimactic if all space combat were completely silent. Make a videogame where there are no sound effects whatsoever for combat or explosions in space, and you've got a unsalable game on your hands.

It would be more appropriate to compare books to other books (since this is a writing forum after all) as examples of this done right/wrong than comparing between mediums that have different audience expectations and storybuilding needs.
QFT
My computer can barely handle Mass Effect cutscenes as they stand.

So you've seen every asteroid field in the universe?
I'm with Shadow Ferret here. Just because our asteroid field is spread out doesn't mean there can't be one that isn't.
Besides, Star Wars, different universe, different rules, and at the time George Lucas made it, I'm pretty sure it was considered big scale. (I wasn't around back then.)
 

Izz

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No asteroid belt will ever be that dense. Period. They'd accrete into a planet otherwise.
I was trying to think of a way to say this, but you've said it much simpler than i could've.
 

MattW

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My other example: Distances. Space is big. Really really big. So big, that it's nearly unimaginable. So, things that are not going to happen are for example people lying in wait to ambush you from behind a planet. (No, this is not about stealth in space:p) Or people running accidentally into planets or suns. Space is for all intents and purposes a perfect vacuum. Planets and even stars are just small statistical errors which would be ignored as errors of measurement if they weren't individually so big.
While space is big, the influence of gravitational bodies covers a lot of distance too.

Traveling at a great speed through space with even small, infrequent pulses of gravitational pull could have an effect on navigation (at the least) or stability of drive systems (depending on the tech). Something akin to harmonic vibration could be a possible issue.
 

Lhun

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I'm with Shadow Ferret here. Just because our asteroid field is spread out doesn't mean there can't be one that isn't.
As long as the very basic physical laws stay the same, there are things you see (quite regularly) on the screen that just can't be. Dense asteroid fields don't work because gravity makes them stick together, and they'll rather quickly condense into a single body.
Nebula like the Star Trek kind don't work because there's nothing making them stick together. And a gas surrounded by vacuum will expand quite quickly.
And there's no such thing as "visual range" since there's no horizon to hide behind. Things are small or big spots in the telescope, and while they can be too far away to recognize, there's no line to cross between visible and not visible.

But even though i'm always happy to discuss realism in fiction (and the merits thereof) this thread isn't supposed to be about writing realistic fiction, but about writing speculative fiction. About how to upscale fiction (and who does it right).

Now to get back on track, another Author that just came to mind is Charles Stross. Specifically his "Singularity Sky" [SPOILERS AHEAD] where an autocratic human society is visited by a hugely more advanced group of... visitors which give people whatever they want in exchange for stories. Including the revolutionaries on the world.
Now just to prove my previous point, it's not realistic, in that the appearing nanofactory does not function at that scale, but it's a great book and he gets the scope of the event right. The visitors appearing and handing out nanofactories to whoever wants them doesn't end in a Napoleonic era or WWII era battle against the government where the revolutionaries get shiny new alien weapons, but the whole culture got basically bombed into a post-scarcity economy with the total breakdown of government and order of any kind.
 

kuwisdelu

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One of my favorite absurdities in SF films is fields of asteroids, like the one in Star Wars II, I think it was. Utter nonsense. In the real asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, you'd not actually be able to see one asteroid from another, except under rare circumstances.

You are SO wrong.





It was episode V. Not II.

ETA: Dammit, there was one in II as well. Stupid prequels....
 
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QFT
My computer can barely handle Mass Effect cutscenes as they stand.


I'm with Shadow Ferret here. Just because our asteroid field is spread out doesn't mean there can't be one that isn't.
Besides, Star Wars, different universe, different rules, and at the time George Lucas made it, I'm pretty sure it was considered big scale. (I wasn't around back then.)


Since Lhun has made it clear we're not talking about realism, let's talk about consistency and scope. If planetary gravity works the same, asteroid gravity works the same. It's all gravity. So, when you have an asteroid field the mass of a planet, guess what happens? it accretes into a planetary object again... just like it did the first time.
 

Zoombie

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The treaty is supposedly there to fix the ratio of ships of the species on the council it's no reason for those ridiculously low total numbers. I wasn't referring to what's visible on screen.

Well, what is visible on the screen does not a whole galaxy represent. I mean, Council Space is a pretty huge section of the galaxy...their fleets better be all over the place.

Heck, in the novels, the PRE-first Contact human navy numbers in at like...200-300 ships.

I mean, I do agree that a lack of sense of scale in sci-fi is bad. But...as a Mass Effect fanboy, I feel compelled to argue. At least about that.
 

Nivarion

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So you've seen every asteroid field in the universe?

They won't happen like that because ...

No asteroid belt will ever be that dense. Period. They'd accrete into a planet otherwise.

This.

The only way I can think of to have a super dense asteroid field in space would be to have two planets smack into each other at some really fast speed that breaks them both into little pieces.

It's only going to last for a little while though, because it'll be rebuilding it's self rather quickly into a much bigger planet.
 

Lhun

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Well, what is visible on the screen does not a whole galaxy represent. I mean, Council Space is a pretty huge section of the galaxy...their fleets better be all over the place.
As i mentioned before
I wasn't referring to what's visible on screen.
The Number of Turian Dreadnoughts (the only class of ships being worth called one) is given as 37 the number of human ones is 6(+1). Which is plain silly. Let's ignore mass and size for a moment and go simply by crew numbers. The Destiny Ascension is supposed to be the biggest ship of all the council races at four times the size of the biggest human ship, having a crew of nearly 10.000. So we can assume a crew of about 2.5k for a human Dreadnought. That means the entire human capital fleet personnel consists of about 15k people? WTF? That's like one army division. Or maybe 4 Carrier Battle Groups. A not too high multiple of the number of people Shepard guns down in a week. And humanity is supposed to be interstellar? Where the hell is everybody? A second outbreak of hippies and everyone's turned pacifist over night? The Alliance government can't get defence spending approved and has to finance the military out of the petty cash?
I mean, the Turian have a decent fleet size... for a single planetary population. If its a small planet.
Heck, in the novels, the PRE-first Contact human navy numbers in at like...200-300 ships.
The only vehicles that deserve to be called ships are the Dreadnaughts. Don't even get me started on the small fry. The Normandy has a crew of what? two dozen people? That's not a frigate, that's a bloody cutter. At best.
I mean, I do agree that a lack of sense of scale in sci-fi is bad. But...as a Mass Effect fanboy, I feel compelled to argue. At least about that.
Go ahead and try. :p I mean, Mass Effect is a pretty damn cool RP shooter, (beats the hell out of Borderlands imo) but it's not exactly well thought-out SF.

While i'm at it, i'd recommend playin a few games of MOO3 to every epic Space-fic writer. Not only is it a damn fine strategy game, it is one of the few that actually has an epic feel to it because of the numbers of units involved. Each single planet will produce anything from a really big ship over the course of several years, to several dozen small ships every year. Two Star Empires spanning a couple of dozen star systems and several times as many planets will duke it out in serious space battles involving hundreds of ships. (thousands if they're the insect species)
For fantasy, i'd recommend Dom3, where an undead horde actually means a horde, not 3 ghouls for every soldier. Although the (significantly more mainstream) Total War series also manages to present big battles very well.
 
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Zoombie

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Remember, each ship is limited not simply by the metal. If it was just the metal and the men, you'd have a bugtun of ships as you surmise.

But for big ships to be worth a damn, they need a LOT of Element Zero, which is rare and expensive.

Remember, you need eezo for the shields, you need it for the drive core, you need it for the rail guns, and you need it for all your guns and personal shields as well.

One admiral says that all the eezo that the Normandy used could build a heavy cruiser.

So, there IS a logical restriction on fleet size. HA!

And I'd like to point out that military star ships require a load more eezo than civilian ships, due to size, armor, and kinetic barriers. Civy ships don't need huge shields, nor loads of armor, not even super fast drive cores. They just need to get from point A to point B in enough time to make a profit. Which is why you see more civilian ships than you see military ships.
 
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