Hiking in the Mountains - Travel Time

Tija · Apr 6, 2010

Hi all,

Can anybody tell me how long it would take to hike up a mountain range on foot, to an elevation of somewhere between 1500-2500 m?

I have read that a person can cover 50 miles a day if it is flat (I even saw here mentioned that Native Americans could easily walk 80 miles in a day).

Conditions would be somewhat like Taiwan's spine (Alishan, etc. -- my WIP is not based in reality), so they are taken from the tropical lowlands to a more temperate zone.

It is a small group of 5-10 people, keeping a steady pace. These guys are super fit and are not strangers to this sort of thing. It would be a full-out day of hiking (no sightseeing) and they are getting 4-5 hours of sleep max (also meaning they travel during dark hours).

Weather would hinder them somewhat, as they are entering monsoon season, so lots of rainy days. The terrain is rough, with plenty of rivulets to cross, and there are no roads or clearly defined paths, but they do know their way well.

Thanks in advance and I look forward to what people have to say.

- Tija

DrZoidberg · Apr 7, 2010

I've done this sort of hiking. That elevation is not especially high, as in doesn't require special equipment. When pushing yourself you can get a bit weirdly out of breath when you're not expecting to, but nothing a couple of deep breaths won't solve. Nearing the high end of your spectrum, ie 2500 meters it might get dangerous, and you might develop altitude sickness. I may be wrong here, but I think that the healthier you are, the more you're prone to get altitude sickness.

If they have serious hiking gear they could get away with extremely low weights. Maybe fifteen kilo packs? twenty five? That's including tents and food. If it's the monsoon they won't need to bring water, which is a major bonus as far as weight is concerned. In rain keeping your gear dry, and especially feet, is critical. But modern packing materials and serious boots take care of that problem just fine.

Weight and terrain is everything as far as speed is concerned. A flash flood or an impassible crossing can add hours to a day. But even a thing like uneven or slippery ground can really do damage to the body after a full day. You feel it in your back and knees. But it's fun stripping naked, putting the bundle on your head and wading to the other side, dry off, put it all on, and then keep going again. Cold mountain streams really makes ones penis shrink (if one has one).

Hiking in the dark is dangerous, and won't necessarily save you any time. All you need is one misstep and hiking is over for you.

Kenny · Apr 7, 2010

Some nights, if there are no clouds and the moon is out, you can hike and have a reasonable amount of light. It surprised me the first time I saw a full moon on an otherwise dark field and the amount of light there was.

Nivarion · Apr 7, 2010

Tija said:
Hi all,

Can anybody tell me how long it would take to hike up a mountain range on foot, to an elevation of somewhere between 1500-2500 m?

I have read that a person can cover 50 miles a day if it is flat (I even saw here mentioned that Native Americans could easily walk 80 miles in a day).

Conditions would be somewhat like Taiwan's spine (Alishan, etc. -- my WIP is not based in reality), so they are taken from the tropical lowlands to a more temperate zone.

It is a small group of 5-10 people, keeping a steady pace. These guys are super fit and are not strangers to this sort of thing. It would be a full-out day of hiking (no sightseeing) and they are getting 4-5 hours of sleep max (also meaning they travel during dark hours).

Weather would hinder them somewhat, as they are entering monsoon season, so lots of rainy days. The terrain is rough, with plenty of rivulets to cross, and there are no roads or clearly defined paths, but they do know their way well.

Thanks in advance and I look forward to what people have to say.

- Tija

I've climbed many mountains and have been on an unblazed hike.

You could make it up a few thousand feet in the first day if the terrain in is agreeable. However, you don't want to go up too quickly, your body needs to make more red blood cells to account for oxygen drops, although I don't think you'll have to worry about it as much for the heights your talking about.

On our unblazed hike, we were moving down white rocks canyon, all of us were experienced hikers. After we reached the end of the trail our speed dropped significantly. I think we made ten miles in the first day.

The river was what slowed us down the most because it winds through the canyon, and on most bends has a sheer cliff on the bend. So we'd have to wade through it and it was waist height.

you need a lot of safety precautions when crossing a quick deep river, because you can get washed away.

Don't hike at night unless you've got lights and a full moon. Your asking for a broken leg doing otherwise. It's a lot safer without equipment, but still a really bad idea.

Tsu Dho Nimh · Apr 7, 2010

Tija said:
Hi all,
Can anybody tell me how long it would take to hike up a mountain range on foot, to an elevation of somewhere between 1500-2500 m?

One factor is how steep the mountain range is. If it's rising abruptly, like the Front Range in Colorado, you spend most of your time going up, not across terrain.

http://www.trailsandopenspaces.org/hiking-pikes-peak.html 7,000 foot vertical rise in 12 miles of trail. Takes about 10 hours for a hiker in excellent shape.

Tija · Apr 7, 2010

Wow, thanks heaps guys - everyone's full of information

I guess I hadn't considered how dangerous hiking at night is, so that's out... though I suppose I could incorporate a full moon night.

DrZoidberg said:
I may be wrong here, but I think that the healthier you are, the more you're prone to get altitude sickness.

That's strange, because I would have thought it to be the other way around. :Shrug:

So... conditions being pretty good, the hike would take them, say, 1-2 days? And in the worst conditions, something more like 4-5 days?

Any more input would be great, especially if I'm way off on the timing

I appreciate your help,
Tija

Nivarion · Apr 7, 2010

Tija said:
Wow, thanks heaps guys - everyone's full of information

I guess I hadn't considered how dangerous hiking at night is, so that's out... though I suppose I could incorporate a full moon night.

That's strange, because I would have thought it to be the other way around.

So... conditions being pretty good, the hike would take them, say, 1-2 days? And in the worst conditions, something more like 4-5 days?

Any more input would be great, especially if I'm way off on the timing

I appreciate your help,
Tija

It'll depend on your terrain a lot. I made it from Chepeta to Box lake in two days with rain and hail taking out a couple of hours every day, but it took me a week to get through white rocks at the same distance with pretty good weather the whole way through.

Lesson about white rocks. If there is a trail that goes in 1/4 the way both directions and ends abruptly, there is a damn good reason why.

Like the area being nearly impossible to pass.

DrZoidberg · Apr 8, 2010

Tija said:
That's strange, because I would have thought it to be the other way around.

If I remember this correctly, the more muscles you've got the more oxygen you use, so your oxygen turnover is higher. If there's a shortage of oxygen in the mixture of gases you're breathing (ie the air) you want your oxygen turnover to be low. So the optimum high altitude mountaineering body is to be lean, both in regards to muscles and fat when doing high altitude climbing. I will insert a disclaimer here. There might be more to it than just this.

But this will only, potentially, be a problem at the uppermost altitudes you're talking about. I suspect you need to get a lot higher before it'll be a serious problem.

Tija · Apr 8, 2010

Nivarion said:
It'll depend on your terrain a lot. I made it from Chepeta to Box lake in two days with rain and hail taking out a couple of hours every day, but it took me a week to get through white rocks at the same distance with pretty good weather the whole way through.

Lesson about white rocks. If there is a trail that goes in 1/4 the way both directions and ends abruptly, there is a damn good reason why. Like the area being nearly impossible to pass.

I take it White Rocks is a rougher hike than Chepeta to Box Lake then? (I'm from Australia, and not familiar with American countryside

)

If you could you give me an idea on what the terrain in those areas is like, so I have something to work from, that'd be great thanks. Also, how far were those hikes and how high did they take you?

DrZoidberg said:
If I remember this correctly, the more muscles you've got the more oxygen you use, so your oxygen turnover is higher. If there's a shortage of oxygen in the mixture of gases you're breathing (ie the air) you want your oxygen turnover to be low. So the optimum high altitude mountaineering body is to be lean, both in regards to muscles and fat when doing high altitude climbing. I will insert a disclaimer here. There might be more to it than just this.

But this will only, potentially, be a problem at the uppermost altitudes you're talking about. I suspect you need to get a lot higher before it'll be a serious problem.

This is interesting, and certainly something I wasn't aware of previously. It does make sense, though. Thanks

I have read that about 20% of people do have symptoms of altitude sickness at around 2500 m, but it all depends on the individual person.

Anaximander · Apr 8, 2010

Going on a rough guess from googled photos of the terrain you're talking about, I'd probably allow three days or so. Hiking in the dark in mountains is not a great idea, and it won't gain you much distance anyway - in mountainous terrain, you have to slow down quite a bit when it gets dark. I've done it a few times, but never by choice, and it's slow going because there tends to be a lot of loose rock and uneven ground, and if you can't see very well then it's very easy to injure yourself - you'd be surprised how easy it is to badly sprain your ankle, or worse, and once that happens you'll need to be carried off the mountain somehow. Also, your brain starts shutting down once it gets dark, especially if you're outside, because it starts getting colder once the sun goes down. It doesn't take long before your body starts trying to go to sleep, which is made worse by the fact that you've spent the whole day (and possibly a number of days before it) hiking and tiring yourself out. You'd be better off pitching camp as soon as the sky starts to colour with sunset (perhaps sooner, depending how nasty the weather is locally) and getting up at first light to carry on. You'll feel much better for it, physically and mentally - and don't underestimate the mental aspect of it. There's a competition hike I do every year: 50 miles of rough terrain and hills in one day, in December, in an area known for being cold and windy. I can honestly say that the physical effects of walking 30 miles of it are more or less indistinguishable from the effects of walking all 50, especially after a night's sleep. The extra 20 miles is almost entirely down to mental endurance - how long you can make yourself keep walking.

Tija · Apr 8, 2010

Thanks, Anaximander.

I think I'll go with 3-5 days then, with good weather conditions, and maybe something like 6-7 in bad conditions.

Now to decide how much to throw at them

Thanks again everyone - it is much appreciated.
Tija

backslashbaby · Apr 8, 2010

This may be a dumb question, but I usually hike where things aren't cleared... is there a trail already?

Because if it's tropical to subtropical, things get crazy jungly. It takes more time to get through because you have to cut so many plants to get anywhere

That may be true farther north, too; I've just never been in the wilds there so I don't know. But Costa Rican rainforest and Southern woods briar patches aren't fast going without a machete or a trail

Tija · Apr 8, 2010

backslashbaby said:
This may be a dumb question, but I usually hike where things aren't cleared... is there a trail already?

Because if it's tropical to subtropical, things get crazy jungly. It takes more time to get through because you have to cut so many plants to get anywhere

That may be true farther north, too; I've just never been in the wilds there so I don't know. But Costa Rican rainforest and Southern woods briar patches aren't fast going without a machete or a trail

Well, as I said in my original post, there is no no clearly defined path or road, but there would be a rough trail, yes.

I've never personally been hiking in uncleared areas in tropical/subtropical zones, but I understand what you're saying.

Give them machetes and they should be right getting through the tougher parts

Nivarion · Apr 8, 2010

Tija said:
I take it White Rocks is a rougher hike than Chepeta to Box Lake then? (I'm from Australia, and not familiar with American countryside )

If you could you give me an idea on what the terrain in those areas is like, so I have something to work from, that'd be great thanks. Also, how far were those hikes and how high did they take you?

Most american's aren't familiar with the country I'm talking about. Thats why I liked to go out there. In all the hikes and camps and over all time I ever spent out there I only ever encountered one other camper.

I'm using google maps to help you look at the terrain, the coordinates given are for it.

Looking at my maps, I have to first admit that I got some of the names wrong. The first hike was not chepeta to box lake, it was Spirit lake to Burnt Fork lake. Chepeta to box was a different hike.

Anyways (woops) The highest elevation we reached on that one was about 11k (3.3Km I think) feet above sea level at 40.833781,-110.080733. The lowest point was 10k (9.3Km) feet above sea level. None of us had any altitude sickness, although the party was only five people.
This hike was mostly flat meadows with a few sudden rises, of about 200 feet each over 1000 feet.

white rocks was different. We had planned on going to Lilly lake, but never made it. The land there was after the end of the trail was basically islands in the inside of the river bends. Everything else was shear cliffs that went pretty much strait up. What wasn't tree to tree, or bog, was boulders about 10 to 20 inches across. The canyon floods in the spring time and knocks over a bunch of old trees.

Our highest point on this climb was 8200 feet above sea level. The lowest was 7900 feet above sea level. 40.645675,-109.978294 (highest) 40.652253,-109.9931 (Lowest)

look for the green arrows and set it to terrain to see the contour map.

Nivarion · Apr 8, 2010

Tija said:
Thanks, Anaximander.

I think I'll go with 3-5 days then, with good weather conditions, and maybe something like 6-7 in bad conditions.

Now to decide how much to throw at them

Thanks again everyone - it is much appreciated.
Tija

Keep in mind that you can only carry a couple of days worth of food after gear. You should only carry 30% of your body weight, so they'll need a way to refill their food supplies with a week long trip.

we fished and foraged for fun, but we weren't ever going on a 6+ day trip.

Now uh, what is the technology of the setting, and are the characters planning their trip or is this a run away from the bad guys thing?

Tija · Apr 9, 2010

Nivarion said:
Most american's aren't familiar with the country I'm talking about. Thats why I liked to go out there. In all the hikes and camps and over all time I ever spent out there I only ever encountered one other camper.

I'm using google maps to help you look at the terrain, the coordinates given are for it.

Looking at my maps, I have to first admit that I got some of the names wrong. The first hike was not chepeta to box lake, it was Spirit lake to Burnt Fork lake. Chepeta to box was a different hike.

Anyways (woops) The highest elevation we reached on that one was about 11k (3.3Km I think) feet above sea level at 40.833781,-110.080733. The lowest point was 10k (9.3Km) feet above sea level. None of us had any altitude sickness, although the party was only five people.
This hike was mostly flat meadows with a few sudden rises, of about 200 feet each over 1000 feet.

white rocks was different. We had planned on going to Lilly lake, but never made it. The land there was after the end of the trail was basically islands in the inside of the river bends. Everything else was shear cliffs that went pretty much strait up. What wasn't tree to tree, or bog, was boulders about 10 to 20 inches across. The canyon floods in the spring time and knocks over a bunch of old trees.

Our highest point on this climb was 8200 feet above sea level. The lowest was 7900 feet above sea level. 40.645675,-109.978294 (highest) 40.652253,-109.9931 (Lowest)

look for the green arrows and set it to terrain to see the contour map.

Hm. Obviously the terrain in those areas is vastly different to that in my WIP - a jungle with only a small trail to follow is going to be fairly slow going compared to meadows - but it does help to give an idea of what different terrains are like to hike.

Nivarion said:
Now uh, what is the technology of the setting, and are the characters planning their trip or is this a run away from the bad guys thing?

Yes... technology. DrZoidberg did mention that sort of thing earlier, but it's an aspect I managed to forget.

It is a planned hike, so they're well prepared. As for tech, like I mentioned, it isn't based in reality, so no exact era, but it would be equivalent to around 16th-17th century Asia (before Western settlement anyway).

Phyllo · Apr 9, 2010

OK, maybe I don't get it, but I don't see where it's going to take all that long.

Flat walking can cover up to six km/hour (6000 m), "typical" trail hiking is more like three km/hr (3000). You're talking about a hike of say, 2000 metres. You stated the hikers are "super fit", experienced and aren't sight-seeing.

So let's add for the steady uphill and allow a little extra. Assuming the start of the hike is at or near sea level and there's a rough trail and no one's injured, I fail to see how this takes much longer than two to three hours max, regardless of whether it's a moderate or steep climb.

Tsu Dho Nimh · Apr 9, 2010

Tija said:
So... conditions being pretty good, the hike would take them, say, 1-2 days? And in the worst conditions, something more like 4-5 days?

How long does the plot REQUIRE?

Tell us that, and we can come up with scenarios to make it happen in that time period.

OH ... what time of year is this? Climate, vegetation? (jungle, desert, alps ... ???)

hammerklavier · Apr 9, 2010

I was watching a Nova episode about Mount Everest and there was a doctor on the show that proved that the worst altitude sickness (the serious kind) is caused by a disorder some people have. If you don't have the disorder, you'll never get that sick. The disorder causes people to keep breathing at the regular rate, rather than breathing more often and more deeply to take in more oxygen as oxygen levels drop.

Tija · Apr 9, 2010

Phyllo said:
OK, maybe I don't get it, but I don't see where it's going to take all that long.

Flat walking can cover up to six km/hour (6000 m), "typical" trail hiking is more like three km/hr (3000). You're talking about a hike of say, 2000 metres. You stated the hikers are "super fit", experienced and aren't sight-seeing.

So let's add for the steady uphill and allow a little extra. Assuming the start of the hike is at or near sea level and there's a rough trail and no one's injured, I fail to see how this takes much longer than two to three hours max, regardless of whether it's a moderate or steep climb.

Well, that's why I started this thread - I need your help with it.

So far, everyone has estimated at least a day or so, but a couple of people have suggested longer, considering the fact that it is rainforest.

I'm open to all suggestions... Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Tija · Apr 9, 2010

Tsu Dho Nimh said:
How long does the plot REQUIRE?

Tell us that, and we can come up with scenarios to make it happen in that time period.

OH ... what time of year is this? Climate, vegetation? (jungle, desert, alps ... ???)

Well, the plot doesn't really require any period of time. Whether it takes 1 day or 6 doesn't affect much at this point in time... though it may at a later date, if I decide to take them back down, etc.

Time of year is just before monsoon season, so the climate is still hot and sticky, but there would be plenty of showers. Vegetation is rainforest, so a bit jungly. This changes slightly as they get higher (as does vegetation), into a more temperate climate, with milder temperatures and perhaps a bit less rain.

hammerklavier said:
I was watching a Nova episode about Mount Everest and there was a doctor on the show that proved that the worst altitude sickness (the serious kind) is caused by a disorder some people have. If you don't have the disorder, you'll never get that sick. The disorder causes people to keep breathing at the regular rate, rather than breathing more often and more deeply to take in more oxygen as oxygen levels drop.

Thanks for clarifying this

I think, in this situation as others have pointed out, the characters wouldn't be too susceptible to altitude sickness, because it's not really very high.

Tsu Dho Nimh · Apr 10, 2010

Your travel time will be affected by two factors:
The rate of vertical rise (short and steep versus gentle but long)
How much brush-cutting they have to do

You could do a steep, short scramble in one really long day, but if it's 30 miles of foothills leading to the high spot, with thick tangles of vegetation to clear, it could take a lot longer.

Anaximander · Apr 10, 2010

Tsu Dho Nimh's post reminds me, I meant to mention Naismith's Rule. Originally, this was to assume 3mph plus a half-hour for every thousand feet of ascent. These days there are all sorts of corrections (check out Wikipedia's article if you want more detail). The way I do it when I go hiking is this:
First, you calculate the time it'll take using the flat speed, which is roughly three and a bit miles per hour for the average comfortable walking pace, pushing to maybe four, four and a half if you're in good shape. Then you add one minute for every ten metres of ascent, and add one minute for every thirty metres of steep descent. Then subtract one minute per thirty metres gentle descent (what classes as 'gentle' and 'steep' is mostly a judgement call based on experience; it depends on quality of the path as well as the angle). Then add fudge factors for poor terrain and fatigue, which will require knowledge of the route and the people walking, respectively, as well as a little experience.

Tija · Apr 11, 2010

OK, well I guess I'll have to get down the specifics of the area and work out the timing from there.

Thank you all for the information you've provided - it's been a great help

Hiking in the Mountains - Travel Time

Tija

DrZoidberg

aka TomOfSweden

Kenny

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

Tsu Dho Nimh

Tija

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

DrZoidberg

aka TomOfSweden

Tija

Anaximander

Tija

backslashbaby

*

Tija

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

Tija

Phyllo

Still sitting

Tsu Dho Nimh

hammerklavier

It was a dark and stormy night

Tija

Tija

Tsu Dho Nimh

Anaximander

Tija

Hiking in the Mountains - Travel Time

aka TomOfSweden

Brony level >9000

Brony level >9000

aka TomOfSweden

~~~~*~~~~

Brony level >9000

Brony level >9000

Still sitting

It was a dark and stormy night

*