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Margarita Skies
04-07-2010, 04:23 AM
Hi.


I recently published one of my novels with CreateSpace, but I then decided that the book was too big and so I took it off of CreateSpace, which is I made it unavailable, because needed to split it in two, so I did that. I then double-spaced the two manuscripts and changed the font to Courier New, the closest thing to Courier. I edited the book and corrected all the grammar mistakes it had. Now I need to know if there's a possibility that an agent will accept the first part of what used to be my book. The first volume of the story actually has almost 141,00 words. What do you all think?


Thanks
Magali.


PS: I hope no one gets mad at me for asking this question like it happened when I asked my last question. :(

Jamesaritchie
04-07-2010, 04:28 AM
Considering that history, I'd say an agent would judge the book on its merits, rather than by whether it had been on CreateSpace.

Lucy
04-07-2010, 05:11 AM
I think the word count is going to be a problem.

Maddie
04-07-2010, 05:33 AM
Many agents seem to prefer books under 90,000 words. Also there seems to be a general consensus about type font being Times New Roman sized 12 when you submit fulls or partials to an agent (upon their request) - double-spaced.

aadams73
04-07-2010, 05:36 AM
Also there seems to be a general consensus about type font being Times New Roman sized 12 when you submit fulls or partials to an agent (upon their request) - double-spaced.

Courier/Courier New/Dark Courier are still perfectly acceptable and often even preferable for submission. Any of those or TNR will be fine unless an agent specifies otherwise.

Margarita Skies
04-07-2010, 06:08 AM
Thank you very much, everyone. I will reduce the word count by 50,000 words. I am going to do that right now. Thanks, AAdams73 for your reply and yes, I know that most agents accept manuscripts in Courier and Times New Roman but I formatted it in Courier New (my computer doesn't have Courier) just in case. Your advice is very much appreciated. I will be on the lookout for this thread for more advice. :)

incognitopress
04-07-2010, 06:53 AM
the word count depends on what genre the book is. But I think it's not as much of an issue as is having a good story. Period. My word count is way over 140K, and it's not going to get anywhere close to that number even after the most stringent of edits! (But if I had a dollar for every time someone said "OMG, you can't publish if you've gone over 100,000 words!!!!!", I'd be starting my own publishing company, lol)

The only issue here is that no, to the best of my knowledge, an agent will not generally accept a self-published book if it has been made available somewhere else. That's considered first publishing rights, and they would be gone. I know I reread your original post a couple of times, but I'm not clear if you ever had it available, or even 50% of it available to the public - that would constitute it being published already, and most publishing houses won't buy it because of that.

BenPanced
04-07-2010, 05:08 PM
If you've been able to sell about 10,000 copies, then an agent or publishing house might be interested in it.

shaldna
04-07-2010, 05:31 PM
Did you take it off before it became available to purchase? By that I mean, did you complete the whole set up process?

Margarita Skies
04-07-2010, 06:16 PM
Did you take it off before it became available to purchase? By that I mean, did you complete the whole set up process?


I took it off after I made it available for purchase. I guess I'm going to have to delete it from my hard drive if I can no longer publish it and write three brand-new books to replace the manuscript I made into three books. :(

aadams73
04-07-2010, 06:19 PM
I took it off after I made it available for purchase. I guess I'm going to have to delete it from my hard drive if I can no longer publish it and write three brand-new books to replace the manuscript I made into three books. :(

No need to be so melodramatic. Take a good hard look at it. Wrangle it into a manageable word count. Make sure it's as good as you can possibly get it. Then query. By the time you're done giving it a serious edit and pruning, it's not even going to be the same story anymore.

Margarita Skies
04-07-2010, 06:23 PM
No need to be so melodramatic. Take a good hard look at it. Wrangle it into a manageable word count. Make sure it's as good as you can possibly get it. Then query. By the time you're done giving it a serious edit and pruning, it's not even going to be the same story anymore.


After reading Elisa's reply, I deleted the story along with another story I put on and then took off of CreateSpace, but after reading your reply, I am going to put it back on my computer because luckily, I have it saved on a CD-R. Thank you so, so much. I will, however, try to complete my 7 incomplete stories one by one, so that I have new stories to query just in case.


Thank you so, so much!!! :)

Jamesaritchie
04-07-2010, 06:37 PM
For electronic submissions, times New Roman is fine, but for print, it's the crappiest font out there. A real pain in the butt to edit.

But there is NO 100,000 word limit. That's a complete myth, apparently fostered by people who have never been in a bookstore.

Word limit is, always has been, and always will be, whatever publisher's guidelines say it is for a given genre, for that publisher. Plus a whole bunch more words, if the book is good enough.

Jamesaritchie
04-07-2010, 06:38 PM
If you've been able to sell about 10,000 copies, then an agent or publishing house might be interested in it.

You never have to sell that many copies in order to interest a publisher in a book. But in this case, the book as is has never really been published anywhere, self or not.

blackink
04-07-2010, 11:12 PM
After reading Elisa's reply, I deleted the story along with another story I put on and then took off of CreateSpace, but after reading your reply, I am going to put it back on my computer because luckily, I have it saved on a CD-R. Thank you so, so much. I will, however, try to complete my 7 incomplete stories one by one, so that I have new stories to query just in case.


Thank you so, so much!!! :)

I'm not sure I get all these deleting stuff. Why would you? It is not like the MS takes up so much space on your hard drive. And even if it does, at least email it to yourself to a yahoo account or gmail, so that you have a copy for your archives.

Even if you self published on Createspace, it seems that your ms is sufficiently revised now and is no longer available to the public.

I think it would be acceptable to query as though it were a new ms. Then, when you sign with an agent, you will be able to tell him or her about the brief stint on CreateSpace. I doubt this will be a problem.

BenPanced
04-07-2010, 11:15 PM
Other people here on AW have told me that if the book has been self-pubbed, you might be able to get an agent or publisher interested in reprinting it if you've sold a large number of copies. In this case, the OP wasn't clear if it had actually gone to sale on CreateSpace.

Margarita Skies
04-08-2010, 06:18 AM
For electronic submissions, times New Roman is fine, but for print, it's the crappiest font out there. A real pain in the butt to edit.

But there is NO 100,000 word limit. That's a complete myth, apparently fostered by people who have never been in a bookstore.

Word limit is, always has been, and always will be, whatever publisher's guidelines say it is for a given genre, for that publisher. Plus a whole bunch more words, if the book is good enough.


The book that I am talking about is romance and it is now 81,646 words exactly. I have read on the websites of three or four agents however, that 200,000 words or more were way too much, and that's what a manuscript of mine used to be, so that's what made me make my manuscripts shorter. I appreciate your words. :)



You never have to sell that many copies in order to interest a publisher in a book. But in this case, the book as is has never really been published anywhere, self or not.


Ok, your reply really encouraged me now!! Thank you so, so much!! :)



I'm not sure I get all these deleting stuff. Why would you? It is not like the MS takes up so much space on your hard drive. And even if it does, at least email it to yourself to a yahoo account or gmail, so that you have a copy for your archives.

Even if you self published on Createspace, it seems that your ms is sufficiently revised now and is no longer available to the public.

I think it would be acceptable to query as though it were a new ms. Then, when you sign with an agent, you will be able to tell him or her about the brief stint on CreateSpace. I doubt this will be a problem.


No, no, no...it has absolutely nothing to do with my hard drive space. My first computer, which I got brand-new in 1998, it only had 3.25 GB of hard drive space, no kidding. If I were still writing on that computer, I would worry about the size of my manuscripts, but no, that's not it, because now I have 250 GB of hard drive space, which with the installation of Windows 7 and everything, the first time I turned it on, brand-new, and checked, had 223 GB free for me to use. Bottom line, that is not the issue.


The reason why I decided to make my novels a lot shorter than they used to be, being anywhere over 200,000 words, is because of what I have read in the blogs of 4 to 5 different agents. The first blog I read, the agent said that he or she wouldn't even look at a 200,000-word manuscript. In his or her blog, another agent said, responding to a writer's question, a writer whose manuscript was 280,000 words, (this is an approximation because I don't remember the exact word count) and the writer was asking if his or her manuscript was too long... well, I'll only share the first line of that reply. "280,000 words is not only too long, it is crazy long." When I read that I thought Yikes! and so I decided to split my 239,000-word manuscript into three manuscripts. The first one is 81,646 words, the second one is 78,869 words, and the third one is 79,581 words, and those word-counts are exact, as I have the manuscripts opened in my word-processor as I am typing this. I spent the whole day today editing those manuscripts for spelling and grammar errors, and now they're perfect and clean. I did that with another manuscript which was 220+ words into three manuscripts. The first one is 67,512 words, the second one is 68,149 words, and the third one is 84,331 words. I admit that the first two manuscripts made of the second large manuscript are a little too short, and that I am going to have to work on those. Those manuscripts are not edited for spelling and grammar errors yet. I am going to work on that tomorrow, and I will continue to work every single day until every single finished manuscript is completely free from spelling and grammar errors.


Wow, this might be the longest message I've typed since I joined these boards! So, that's my explanation. Nothing to do with hard drive space, I just thought that those manuscripts were way too large and they had to be split up.


I appreciate your advice and everything you've said on your reply to me. Your words encouraged me even more to revive this particular project. And no, this particular project is no longer available to the public, this or any of my manuscripts.


Sincerely
Magali.


Other people here on AW have told me that if the book has been self-pubbed, you might be able to get an agent or publisher interested in reprinting it if you've sold a large number of copies. In this case, the OP wasn't clear if it had actually gone to sale on CreateSpace.


Yes, it was on sale on CreateSpace for a very short period of time, that is, manuscript unedited for errors, the 239,000-word manuscript, as a 707-page book, but I took it off, in other words, made it unavailable to the public. I think I said that. If I didn't, I apologize.

BenPanced
04-08-2010, 09:05 AM
P.S.) Would you please consider changing the purple font to black? It's a bit difficult to read.

aadams73
04-08-2010, 12:56 PM
My brain just exploded.

KTC
04-08-2010, 01:17 PM
In answer to the question in the thread title only----YES. It happened to a friend of mine. I can't speak to anything else, but I can tell you a friend who self-published was picked up by a New York agent...

aadams73
04-08-2010, 01:20 PM
In answer to the question in the thread title only----YES. It happened to a friend of mine. I can't speak to anything else, but I can tell you a friend who self-published was picked up by a New York agent...

Score!

I've heard of it, but to people who've already sold a significant number of copies. Significant being 5K +

shaldna
04-08-2010, 01:52 PM
I took it off after I made it available for purchase. I guess I'm going to have to delete it from my hard drive if I can no longer publish it and write three brand-new books to replace the manuscript I made into three books. :(


Argh. the Drama!!!

KTC
04-08-2010, 02:32 PM
The book that I am talking about is romance and it is now 81,646 words exactly. I have read on the websites of three or four agents however, that 200,000 words or more were way too much, and that's what a manuscript of mine used to be, so that's what made me make my manuscripts shorter. I appreciate your words. :)


WAIT. in one day you took a 141,000 word manuscript and made it an 81,646 word manuscript? Okay...I thought I was confused by this thread before...but this really confuses me.

mlhernandez
04-08-2010, 09:15 PM
Maybe a better alternative would be to set aside this project and write something new and better and shorter. It sounds like this may be one of your first manuscripts. It's fairly normal to write a humongous manuscript the first time or two.

Shove those under your bed and begin again. It's part of the learning process.

Jersey Chick
04-08-2010, 09:41 PM
The book that I am talking about is romance and it is now 81,646 words exactly. I have read on the websites of three or four agents however, that 200,000 words or more were way too much, and that's what a manuscript of mine used to be, so that's what made me make my manuscripts shorter. I appreciate your words. :)

200k words IS too long for romance. Most publishers want between 80k-100k for romance novels (though several HarperCollins/Avon lines go as low as 60k) -

A notable exception is for Harlequin's category lines, which run 50-65k words.


Other genres are different, but I don't know much about them. Romance is my thing. :D

Kateness
04-08-2010, 09:49 PM
Fantasy and sci-fi can run as long as 120,000 words (or longer, to be honest), but hitting the 100,000 mark isn't a deal-breaker by any means. 200,000 is probably still a deal-breaker for debut fantasy/sci-fi (though once you're established in the genre...well, let's just say that most of the fantasy/sci-fi books I have purchased are considerably more than 100k)

Margarita Skies
04-08-2010, 11:17 PM
P.S.) Would you please consider changing the purple font to black? It's a bit difficult to read.


Ok.


My brain just exploded.


Why? Did I say something wrong?


In answer to the question in the thread title only----YES. It happened to a friend of mine. I can't speak to anything else, but I can tell you a friend who self-published was picked up by a New York agent...


Ok, thanks for sharing this. :)


Score!

I've heard of it, but to people who've already sold a significant number of copies. Significant being 5K +

Oh, bummer...


Argh. the Drama!!!


I am sorry, but that was the way I felt at the moment, and I had to express it.


WAIT. in one day you took a 141,000 word manuscript and made it an 81,646 word manuscript? Okay...I thought I was confused by this thread before...but this really confuses me.


What exactly confused you about this thread? What exactly confused you about this particular post? It's like taking a big chocolate bar, a huge one, and cutting it into many different chunks.

KTC
04-08-2010, 11:24 PM
What exactly confused you about this thread? What exactly confused you about this particular post? It's like taking a big chocolate bar, a huge one, and cutting it into many different chunks.

just that you removed almost 60,000 words in one day. usually you wouldn't just chop it into pieces. it takes a lot of time and effort to edit down a manuscript. A LOT.

Margarita Skies
04-08-2010, 11:33 PM
Maybe a better alternative would be to set aside this project and write something new and better and shorter. It sounds like this may be one of your first manuscripts. It's fairly normal to write a humongous manuscript the first time or two.

Shove those under your bed and begin again. It's part of the learning process.


That would be kind of hard for me to do after all the work I did on those books.


200k words IS too long for romance. Most publishers want between 80k-100k for romance novels (though several HarperCollins/Avon lines go as low as 60k) -

A notable exception is for Harlequin's category lines, which run 50-65k words.


Other genres are different, but I don't know much about them. Romance is my thing. :D

:)


Fantasy and sci-fi can run as long as 120,000 words (or longer, to be honest), but hitting the 100,000 mark isn't a deal-breaker by any means. 200,000 is probably still a deal-breaker for debut fantasy/sci-fi (though once you're established in the genre...well, let's just say that most of the fantasy/sci-fi books I have purchased are considerably more than 100k)


Thanks, most of my books are sci-fi, and I will keep that in mind. :)

DeleyanLee
04-08-2010, 11:45 PM
Fantasy and sci-fi can run as long as 120,000 words (or longer, to be honest), but hitting the 100,000 mark isn't a deal-breaker by any means. 200,000 is probably still a deal-breaker for debut fantasy/sci-fi (though once you're established in the genre...well, let's just say that most of the fantasy/sci-fi books I have purchased are considerably more than 100k)

What I've heard from agents and editors over the years is that even 200K is not a deal breaker. HOWEVER, for every K over their max preferred amount (say, 125K), the book has to be so damned FANTASTIC that it just rocks their world better than their favorite secret vice and the very concept of it puts dollar signs in their eyes. Literally.

THAT is hard to do, even if we writers are positive that we've achieved it in spades.

So--can it be done? Sure it can. But the odds are against the vast majority of us. Most of us probably have a better chance of winning the mega-lottery solo than writing such a book.

Margarita Skies
04-08-2010, 11:50 PM
just that you removed almost 60,000 words in one day. usually you wouldn't just chop it into pieces. it takes a lot of time and effort to edit down a manuscript. A LOT.


Ok. I didn't remove 60,000 words in one day. The original manuscript was 239,000 words. What I did was to divide that manuscript into three different manuscripts that were almost 80,000 words each. I opened a new blank document and I pasted some of the chapters into it, without removing any of the words. Then, I pasted the last few chapters of the manuscript into the second blank document, and I left the original manuscript with about 20 chapters. Then, I edited the manuscript for spelling and grammar errors. That is what I did. That's how one large manuscript became three small ones. I didn't remove any of the scenes, nothing.

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 12:01 AM
What I've heard from agents and editors over the years is that even 200K is not a deal breaker. HOWEVER, for every K over their max preferred amount (say, 125K), the book has to be so damned FANTASTIC that it just rocks their world better than their favorite secret vice and the very concept of it puts dollar signs in their eyes. Literally.

THAT is hard to do, even if we writers are positive that we've achieved it in spades.

So--can it be done? Sure it can. But the odds are against the vast majority of us. Most of us probably have a better chance of winning the mega-lottery solo than writing such a book.



Thank you so much, Delayan Lee!! You rock!! :)

CaoPaux
04-09-2010, 12:24 AM
Please use the multi-quote function rather than answering everyone individually. The Newbie Guide (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66315) explains how, if you need help with it.

shadowwalker
04-09-2010, 12:28 AM
Ok. I didn't remove 60,000 words in one day. The original manuscript was 239,000 words. What I did was to divide that manuscript into three different manuscripts that were almost 80,000 words each. I opened a new blank document and I pasted some of the chapters into it, without removing any of the words. Then, I pasted the last few chapters of the manuscript into the second blank document, and I left the original manuscript with about 20 chapters. Then, I edited the manuscript for spelling and grammar errors. That is what I did. That's how one large manuscript became three small ones. I didn't remove any of the scenes, nothing.

Now I'm confused. You just divided one large document into three smaller ones? No new intro/ending to each of the three new ones? Are these new documents stories in and of themselves, as is?

I get the feeling you're paying way too much attention to word count and perhaps not enough to the story/stories... :Huh:

KTC
04-09-2010, 12:32 AM
Now I'm confused. You just divided one large document into three smaller ones? No new intro/ending to each of the three new ones? Are these new documents stories in and of themselves, as is?

I get the feeling you're paying way too much attention to word count and perhaps not enough to the story/stories... :Huh:

stop thinking what I'm thinking at the same time that I'm thinking it!

(-:

roseangel
04-09-2010, 12:36 AM
Now I'm confused. You just divided one large document into three smaller ones? No new intro/ending to each of the three new ones? Are these new documents stories in and of themselves, as is?

I get the feeling you're paying way too much attention to word count and perhaps not enough to the story/stories... :Huh:

Right, what she said.
All three of your stories can stand alone, right? Even if they are direct prequels/sequels to one another, you can read them out of order and have a beginning, middle and end and still understand the whole story? Right? They don't just stop suddenly?

Gillhoughly
04-09-2010, 12:39 AM
http://www.costaricapages.com/panama/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/cart-before-horse-2.jpg
Bit of a problem!



Okay, there's a lot of conflicting suggestions here, from word count, font choice, what agents will or will not do.

Let's simplify.

A) an agent will judge on the merits of the MS in hand.
B) they may consider a 140K-word MS to be a bit long
C) 200K+ words IS insanely long unless your name is Robert Jordan.
D) Courier or Times New Roman are equally welcome as fonts. I prefer reading and writing in TNR.
D) The fact the book was up on CreateSpace means the first publication rights to THAT BOOK are gone forever.
E) Few to no publishers will be interested in a reprint.

BUT--have you had people to beta-read this book?

I'm thinking if you get some fresh, serious, and substantial feedback, do full rewrites and edit the hell out of it again, trim the deadwood--and in a 140K word MS there WILL be deadwood--you'll have a different book than the one you self-published. Put on a new title, change character names--and rewrite AGAIN, and your problems are solved.

This is not an instant process. My first took a year to write the first draft, 2 years of rejections, 25 rewrites of chapter one, 2-3 FULL rewrites of the whole danged book--on a manual typewriter!!!

And I was on the fast track to publication!

What saved me were a few brave beta-readers giving me feedback I needed. I didn't like what they said, but I wanted the book to be better even if I disagreed with them.

When three people told me a minor character in my first book was dull--b-b-b-but she's my fav!!!--I ruthlessly removed her.

The book sold the next time out.

stormie
04-09-2010, 12:45 AM
Listen to Gillhoughly.

KTC
04-09-2010, 12:48 AM
Listen to Gillhoughly.

this.

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 01:07 AM
Ok, then this what I've decided. I've just realized that there is no need to keep these books and that besides those books, I have 23 other manuscripts to work with that I have never published before, and that's plenty, so I am going to delete everything, throw out the disc that those manuscripts were saved on, finish my unfinished manuscripts and if I get new ideas for new ones, I will write new ones.



Thanks for all your advice. I didn't mean to be mean or to write all those posts, and I am not angry that you deleted them because they were very rude and I apologize. I realize that I was wrong. Once again, I am sorry.


Magali.

Gravity
04-09-2010, 01:13 AM
Good Lord. I think you need a take some really deep breaths before you do something so ...final.

shadowwalker
04-09-2010, 01:26 AM
Definitely don't throw the baby out with the bath!

I get the feeling that you're too impulsive/impatient (?). SLOW DOWN. You don't have to destroy what you've already done. You just have to work with it. That's what writing is. Unless, of course, you *know* that what you've written is pure garbage - and I don't think you really believe that.

RoseColoredSkies
04-09-2010, 01:39 AM
As others have said, you don't need to throw away these novels. Just put them aside and focus on new work. Just because these weren't THE ONES to get you published, doesn't mean you shoudn't just ditch them. After all, you did spend a significant amount of time writing them.

I keep all of my old manuscripts because I never know if someday they may come in handy. Plus, it's nice to see how far I've come as a writer.

So don't ditch them. Just set them in a drawer and focus on a new project.

Little Red Barn
04-09-2010, 01:54 AM
Ok, then this what I've decided. I've just realized that there is no need to keep these books and that besides those books, I have 23 other manuscripts to work with that I have never published before, and that's plenty, so I am going to delete everything, throw out the disc that those manuscripts were saved on, finish my unfinished manuscripts and if I get new ideas for new ones, I will write new ones.



Thanks for all your advice. I didn't mean to be mean or to write all those posts, and I am not angry that you deleted them because they were very rude and I apologize. I realize that I was wrong. Once again, I am sorry.


Magali.
hugs. and what Gravity said.

eta: this is a writers forum and you are allowed to ask questions, to learn. and i'm sure you've been told, there are no stupid questions ... just :)
x0

Cathy C
04-09-2010, 02:02 AM
Ok, then this what I've decided. I've just realized that there is no need to keep these books and that besides those books, I have 23 other manuscripts to work with that I have never published before, and that's plenty, so I am going to delete everything, throw out the disc that those manuscripts were saved on, finish my unfinished manuscripts and if I get new ideas for new ones, I will write new ones.

Magali.

Magali, I have to agree with the others that you need to take a deep breath and slow down. It's truly not necessary to delete them. The mere fact of paring the book down from a 141K book to 86K could very well be enough to remove the first rights issue. The trick is that the book is romance. Do those 86K words still encompass a fully realized romance with a Happily Ever After? If so, then think twice before you throw away that CD-R. If not, then what you did might be best--just to get your mind off of it. After all, it can still sell as is on CreateSpace (unless you deleted it there too.)

If you have 23 other books, then it might be worthwhile to concentrate on a new one. FOR NOW. But there are always options for the future and things you'll learn in the process can allow you to come back to this book with fresh eyes and know just what needs to happen to it to make it saleable.

Most of all, don't get discouraged. We all have to admit when we've made mistakes. It's part of the process and that's okay. You don't have to wipe the slate clean of your mistakes. Just own them and take a deep breath. :)

roseangel
04-09-2010, 02:12 AM
I never throw any story/poem I write out, I never know when there is something in them that I can use for something else, even when I think I've wrote utter garbage.

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 02:21 AM
Well, here's the update... after what Gillhoughly said, (did I spell his nickname correctly?) that the first publishing rights would be gone forever, no matter if I publish and then unpublished something, it's dead, and so I deleted all of the manuscripts I have published before, on Lulu, CreateSpace and Wordclay, and I didn't realize I had published so many, when I thought back and said, 'Oh, crap, I published this already...'



So now I have 11 manuscripts, 5 of which I've finished, that is written 80k words or close to that, and everything that's below 80k I consider unfinished, so yeah, that's what I did so far. I know that I could've made changes to the manuscripts and turn them into completely different novels, but for me, it's easier to just delete them completely and rewrite them from scratch, like I've done many other of my past novels, that is the novels that I've lost access to and could never finish, 10 years ago. As for the CD-R I just deleted the manuscript folder off it and saved the disc because I formatted it as a live-file system, meaning I formatted it like a USB flash drive where I could always add more files or delete files.


I thank everyone for your advice and now that my manuscripts are going to be 80-90k words, 90k if it's sci-fi, and no more than 90k, it's going to be easier for me to finish my unfinished manuscripts because most of them are +40k already, and if I was able to write a few 200k novels in the past, in less than two months in those cases, I'll be able to finish my unfinished novels and then write more. I will not query any of my finished novels until I finish my unfinished ones.



I love you guys very much, all of you, and I apologize if I've treated any of you unfairly.
Magali.

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 02:23 AM
I'm sorry but I've never used the multi-quoting function. Who's willing to help me with that?

CaoPaux
04-09-2010, 02:36 AM
None of your posts were deleted; the serial posts were merged into one post.

Have you read the Newbie Guide?

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 03:14 AM
Thank you so much. I've decided to give my other manuscripts another chance and make changes on to them, including the titles and the character names, as other posters have advised me. I was lucky to find copies of those manuscripts on another CD-R.


Thanks, CaoPaux.

Carlene
04-09-2010, 03:46 AM
AAARRRRGGGG - never throw any of your work away! Never! I had a short story published in an Anthology of Christmas stories in October of 2009. Yes, I got paid for it and....I wrote it 30 years ago!

Carlene

Mind Echoes
Stormy Love
The Worst Evil
www.whiskeycreekpress.com

Call Sign: Love
The Colors of Death
An Extra Pair of Eyes
www.writewordsinc.com

Finder
www.wildchildpublishing.com

Mysterious Gift
www.cobblestone-press.com

Roman Circus - 5/17/10
www.nobleromancepublishing.com

Gillhoughly
04-09-2010, 05:17 AM
I am going to delete everything, throw out the disc that those manuscripts were saved on,

Um--don't.

I've got stuff written when I was 14 and didn't know how to make it work, but I recycled later when I did figure it out.

GOOD writers never throw out the whole thing. You rework and recycle, because sometimes in that swamp of words you find gold.

Nothing goes to waste.

At least keep a disc copy. Sure as anything two weeks later you'll wish you had. It's not like it's going to take up as much space as that box of ideas I have shoved behind my desk.

Lois McMaster Bujold reworked a Star Trek fan fic she wrote in high school/college.

When she got done with the rewrite, it sold to Baen Science Fiction and was the first in her Hugo-winning Vorkosigan Saga. Those are the best in S.F. that I've read in years, if not the best books in general. I've read them half a dozen times and always find something new, always learn something new in my craft.

Check out Shards of Honor (http://www.webscription.net/chapters/0671578286/0671578286.htm?blurb) and see if you see much in the way of Trek once she filed off the serial numbers.

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 06:14 AM
AAARRRRGGGG - never throw any of your work away! Never! I had a short story published in an Anthology of Christmas stories in October of 2009. Yes, I got paid for it and....I wrote it 30 years ago!

Carlene

Mind Echoes
Stormy Love
The Worst Evil
www.whiskeycreekpress.com (http://www.whiskeycreekpress.com)

Call Sign: Love
The Colors of Death
An Extra Pair of Eyes
www.writewordsinc.com (http://www.writewordsinc.com)

Finder
www.wildchildpublishing.com (http://www.wildchildpublishing.com)

Mysterious Gift
www.cobblestone-press.com (http://www.cobblestone-press.com)

Roman Circus - 5/17/10
www.nobleromancepublishing.com (http://www.nobleromancepublishing.com)


Um--don't.

I've got stuff written when I was 14 and didn't know how to make it work, but I recycled later when I did figure it out.

GOOD writers never throw out the whole thing. You rework and recycle, because sometimes in that swamp of words you find gold.

Nothing goes to waste.

At least keep a disc copy. Sure as anything two weeks later you'll wish you had. It's not like it's going to take up as much space as that box of ideas I have shoved behind my desk.

Lois McMaster Bujold reworked a Star Trek fan fic she wrote in high school/college.

When she got done with the rewrite, it sold to Baen Science Fiction and was the first in her Hugo-winning Vorkosigan Saga. Those are the best in S.F. that I've read in years, if not the best books in general. I've read them half a dozen times and always find something new, always learn something new in my craft.

Check out Shards of Honor (http://www.webscription.net/chapters/0671578286/0671578286.htm?blurb) and see if you see much in the way of Trek once she filed off the serial numbers.


I finally know how to use the multi-quote function! Yay!!


Ok, Carlene, you are absolutely right. I did delete my manuscripts because I thought (the previously self-published ones) that they would be dead and useless just because they'd been self-published and no one else would want them. I'm still not sure if that's true, but my books are all taken off the market, deleted from the author control panel, deleted from everywhere, and since they're smaller manuscripts, they are slightly different now. I am going to change the names of the stories, the names of the characters, and add a final scene to each book that's in a series. I am also going to do what I've already done with the same series 3 times, which was edit for spelling and grammar errors to have it clean and polished again. I thank God that I had those stories saved on another CD-R.


Gillhoughly, you're absolutely right about the rewrite thing. That is exactly what I'm going to do. I am going to make minor but significant changes and I will follow your advice. The copies of those manuscripts that are on that disc that I found, they're not exactly the same format and size that they're in my hard drive right now, so I'm going to burn those into the CD, too.


Thank you guys for everything.
Sincerely
Magali.

PS: Yes, you guys are all absolutely right. I tend to get desperate at times, and impatient. It's just something that I'm going to have to work on. :) I love you guys. You're great.

Gillhoughly
04-09-2010, 06:52 AM
Great!

Things to eliminate: that desperation and impatience. Neither will be useful to you as a writer. That's likely what messed things up in the first place when you self-pubbed.

I KNOW what it's like! I was totally ready to self-pub my first book after the 10th rejection.

Fortunately, I didn't have the money.

By the second year and another 10+ rejections I was ready again.

Still didn't have the money.

Which was GOOD or I'd have missed out signing a 6-book contract and not have sold a dozen other books besides. (Never mind being an editor, yow.)



These days, money isn't an issue. Self-publishing is as easy as uploading a file.

Which is a crying shame for a lot of books and their impatient writers.

If the writers were patient, got feedback, and put on their game face to make the rounds and kick it old school--which is how publishing operates if you want to go pro--they'd be getting book contracts, not frustration at low sales and losing 1st printing rights.

Patience is the hardest thing to learn. Dang it, I want patience and I want it NOW!

:D

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 06:58 AM
Great!

Things to eliminate: that desperation and impatience. Neither will be useful to you as a writer. That's likely what messed things up in the first place when you self-pubbed.

I KNOW what it's like! I was totally ready to self-pub my first book after the 10th rejection.

Fortunately, I didn't have the money.

By the second year and another 10+ rejections I was ready again.

Still didn't have the money.

Which was GOOD or I'd have missed out signing a 6-book contract and not have sold a dozen other books besides. (Never mind being an editor, yow.)



These days, money isn't an issue. Self-publishing is as easy as uploading a file.

Which is a crying shame for a lot of books and their impatient writers.

If the writers were patient, got feedback, and put on their game face to make the rounds and kick it old school--which is how publishing operates if you want to go pro--they'd be getting book contracts, not frustration at low sales and losing 1st printing rights.

Patience is the hardest thing to learn. Dang it, I want patience and I want it NOW!

:D


Hi. First of all I want to thank you for all your help and putting up with me. I am going to make all the changes that I talked about on the previous post (eliminating spelling and grammar errors and changing character names and adding the ending scenes) and, you know, when my manuscript is polished I will place a chapter or two in the Share your Work forum and then I will query, but since there are thousands and thousands of agents out there, 10 rejections won't get me down. Not even 20. Or 40. :D


Sincerely,
Magali.

shaldna
04-09-2010, 11:54 AM
Ok Magali, I think you're gettign a bit ahead of yourself here. Yesterday you were deleting everything and now you are preparing to query.

My advice is to sit down, edit until your eyes bleed, polish your work and grow a skin like an elephant, because you're going to need it.

If you had a drama like that yesterday because of a few offhand comments, how are you going to react when the rejections start coming in?

blackink
04-09-2010, 06:12 PM
Magali,
you're on the right track, it seems. Take it slowly, there's no rush.

One thing to keep in mind that polishing a ms is more than just running a spellcheck. It is great to have a typo-free ms, but there are plenty of issues that a spellcheck won't pick up. My biggest offenders are repeating the same sentence structure in 10 sentences in a row; repeating the same words too close together; repeating the same thought, worded slightly differently; using 2 or 3 adjectives when only 1 would sufice; using too many adverbs....Just to name a few. Editing a manuscript often requires several steps. First you'd edit for flow; then you'd edit for pace; then you'd edit your dialogues; then syntax.

But the most important rule--never delete anything! :)

kellion92
04-09-2010, 06:35 PM
Magali has to be a troll. The only thing on this thread that makes sense is all of the kind and generous responses.

CaoPaux
04-09-2010, 06:59 PM
The drama is irksome, but seems more young with ESL complications than troll.

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 10:49 PM
I will not query any of my manuscripts until I have at least ten more finished manuscripts. Thank you everyone.

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 10:56 PM
Ok Magali, I think you're gettign a bit ahead of yourself here. Yesterday you were deleting everything and now you are preparing to query.

My advice is to sit down, edit until your eyes bleed, polish your work and grow a skin like an elephant, because you're going to need it.

If you had a drama like that yesterday because of a few offhand comments, how are you going to react when the rejections start coming in?


No, I am not quite ready to query. I am not going to query until I have at least 10 new novels to work with. I thank you for your advice. When rejections start coming in I will be saddened and disappointed, but that won't stop me.



Magali,
you're on the right track, it seems. Take it slowly, there's no rush.

One thing to keep in mind that polishing a ms is more than just running a spellcheck. It is great to have a typo-free ms, but there are plenty of issues that a spellcheck won't pick up. My biggest offenders are repeating the same sentence structure in 10 sentences in a row; repeating the same words too close together; repeating the same thought, worded slightly differently; using 2 or 3 adjectives when only 1 would sufice; using too many adverbs....Just to name a few. Editing a manuscript often requires several steps. First you'd edit for flow; then you'd edit for pace; then you'd edit your dialogues; then syntax.

But the most important rule--never delete anything! :)

I will keep that in mind. Thank you.




Magali has to be a troll. The only thing on this thread that makes sense is all of the kind and generous responses.


Oh, ok, so now I am a troll. I didn't know that expressing my concerns and updating people on what I'm doing with my work when I asked advice on what I should do, and saying how I feel was trolling. I thought that insulting and disrespecting, baiting and provoking was trolling, but it seems that I am wrong.



The drama is irksome, but seems more young with ESL complications than troll.

What does ESL complications mean? And one other question, am I really trolling?

KTC
04-09-2010, 11:06 PM
I will not query any of my manuscripts until I have at least ten more finished manuscripts. Thank you everyone.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Posts like this make you look like a troll. ESL means English as a Second Language.

10 finished manuscripts before querying? That is just Ridiculous. A ridiculous thing to say. It makes people assume you are a troll just stirring up trouble.

Bufty
04-09-2010, 11:08 PM
Only you know that, amigo. :Hug2: Maybe it's part of your research for the next novel.

And I look forward to learning when you've got ten new novels to work with -whatever that means.

But you do leap all over the place and every time someone makes a suggestion -whoosh!- you're off to follow it -until the next suggestion, then wham! you're off on another tangent.


And one other question, am I really trolling?

Cathy C
04-09-2010, 11:31 PM
Um... you do realize that an agent or publisher will only offer a contract on ONE novel at a time, right? Yes, you can sign a 2 or 3 or ten book deal once they fall in love with the one, but the editor/agent will be the one who picks which ones they want to produce.

I won't say it's impossible to produce ten publishable books in a short time (because I can do it) but it's pretty unusual at the beginning, when you're just learning how to plot and develop characters.

Just sayin...

BenPanced
04-09-2010, 11:46 PM
I will not query any of my manuscripts until I have at least ten more finished manuscripts. Thank you everyone.
Ten drafts of the same manuscript? I'd believe that. The one I've got queries out on right now is the twelfth draft. (How do I know that? I've saved everything.)

Ten different manuscripts? You do realize that if you send out the first draft on each one, you have absolutely no chance of getting pubilshed. Agents and publishers know a first draft when they see one. As others have already said, SLOW DOWN, edit one manuscript, and get it ready to query.

Margarita Skies
04-09-2010, 11:58 PM
This makes no sense whatsoever. Posts like this make you look like a troll. ESL means English as a Second Language.

10 finished manuscripts before querying? That is just Ridiculous. A ridiculous thing to say. It makes people assume you are a troll just stirring up trouble.

Well, I didn't mean to offend anyone. English as a second language, oh, so you're saying that just because English is my second language I can't speak English? Or just that I speak it incorrectly? I am not going to try to convince you that I am not a troll, but just because some people don't understand what I am trying to say that doesn't make me a troll. Well, that may be ridiculous to you but it's not ridiculous to me.


Only you know that, amigo. :Hug2: Maybe it's part of your research for the next novel.

And I look forward to learning when you've got ten new novels to work with -whatever that means.

But you do leap all over the place and every time someone makes a suggestion -whoosh!- you're off to follow it -until the next suggestion, then wham! you're off on another tangent.

Ok....................


Um... you do realize that an agent or publisher will only offer a contract on ONE novel at a time, right? Yes, you can sign a 2 or 3 or ten book deal once they fall in love with the one, but the editor/agent will be the one who picks which ones they want to produce.

I won't say it's impossible to produce ten publishable books in a short time (because I can do it) but it's pretty unusual at the beginning, when you're just learning how to plot and develop characters.

Just sayin...

Thank you.


Ten drafts of the same manuscript? I'd believe that. The one I've got queries out on right now is the twelfth draft. (How do I know that? I've saved everything.)

Ten different manuscripts? You do realize that if you send out the first draft on each one, you have absolutely no chance of getting pubilshed. Agents and publishers know a first draft when they see one. As others have already said, SLOW DOWN, edit one manuscript, and get it ready to query.

I meant ten different manuscripts, ten different stories. And yes, I am going to query one story at a time.

Kateness
04-10-2010, 12:02 AM
But agents don't want first drafts.

They want something that you've pored over a hundred times, until you're sick of looking at it and it is the best you're humanly possible of making it.

It's fine to have ten drafts, but you're going to have to pick ONE, and decide that you're going to rewrite and edit and revise and edit and rewrite over and over until it's perfect. Then you query that ONE manuscript while you work on doing the same thing to a different story.

DeleyanLee
04-10-2010, 12:07 AM
Ten drafts of the same manuscript? I'd believe that. The one I've got queries out on right now is the twelfth draft. (How do I know that? I've saved everything.)

Ten different manuscripts? You do realize that if you send out the first draft on each one, you have absolutely no chance of getting pubilshed. Agents and publishers know a first draft when they see one. As others have already said, SLOW DOWN, edit one manuscript, and get it ready to query.


I meant ten different manuscripts, ten different stories. And yes, I am going to query one story at a time.

What Ben is trying to say is that if you write ten books and never edit them, you've only learned how to write a first draft of ten books. You have not learned how to review, edit and revise. These are all necessary and mandatory skills if you're going to do the work demanded of you if/when an editor buys your work.

You've finished a book first draft now. Take the time to learn how to review, edit and revise this one before moving onto another completion of a first draft. The longer you put it off, the more likely that it'll be harder for you to learn.

I say this from experience of writing nothing but first drafts for over thirty novels. I've spent the last five years or so struggling to overcome the bad habits of not revising and learning to do the work that's not easy for me.

Margarita Skies
04-10-2010, 12:26 AM
Ok, this goes to everyone...


I have tried to get my ideas across and everything I wanted to say as clearly as possible. I am not a bad person, and I don't like making people mad on purpose, on the contrary, it horrifies me to make someone mad. I don't intend to annoy anyone. The fact that someone here was saying, along those lines, that I didn't deserve it for you to be nice to me just because my posts in this thread didn't make sense and I am a troll... well, I beg to differ because to my understanding, I have not purposely offended anyone here, and if I have done it unintentionally, I'm sorry. The day that I come to these boards and I am not able to log in because I've been banned, then I will know that I am trolling and that I am doing bad things. So far, I haven't received PM's from moderators telling me that I am doing something wrong, that I am breaking the rules and I'm out of control, and so far I've been able to log in without a problem, so I assume that I am not doing anything wrong. The treatment that I have received from that person in particular, the one that said that I am a troll, and the treatment that I have received from KTC makes me think twice about writing on these message boards because those people really hate me, or simply don't like me, and I don't want to be on a place in the Internet where I am not wanted. If I ever fail to understand what someone's trying to say, I would ask them to explain to me what they're saying. I wouldn't call that person a troll or imply that I am purposely causing trouble. I came here to express a concern, to ask for help, to ask for advice, but from everything that's happened in this thread today I realize that it was the wrong thing to do.


Once again, I am sorry, and if I am ever unable to come in here again, I will forget about this place, and about what another poster says... Yes, I take every reply to this thread and every bit of advice very seriously, to let you know that I am listening to what you're saying and that you are not wasting your time giving me advice that I am not going to take. If that is wrong, I apologize for it, too. I have been criticized for being dramatic also, but I cannot hide how I feel. It is easier for me and it makes me feel better when I express how I feel, it doesn't matter if I'm angry or sad... I don't know, it's just better than holding it in and not telling anyone about it.


Magali.

KTC
04-10-2010, 12:29 AM
I'm sorry...but now you're just being your extreme self. I don't know you enough to hate you. I do, however, know you enough to use my 'ignore' button again.

Toothpaste
04-10-2010, 12:53 AM
Okay. Just want to clarify a point, the person who said you were ESL wasn't accusing you of anything, but was actually trying to defend you not being a troll, but possibly someone who doesn't have as good grasp of the English language and thus might not always be able to articulate yourself as you would like to. People worried you might be a troll as some of what you were saying was starting not to make sense, then someone said, "It might be because the person is ESL and/or young" thus not quite as able to write exactly what they mean.

That's all. No one was saying that being ESL was a bad thing, goodness we have many people from around the world here and I am always in awe that they are willing to communicate in a language not their own. Heaven knows I could never do that.

But it might explain why people are getting a bit confused with your posts. Have patience with us, and we will try to have patience with you. :)

(btw only one person here suspected you were a troll, most everyone else came to your defense. One person got it wrong, relax, it's cool, as you say no one has sent you a PM or anything, we's good :) )

Margarita Skies
04-10-2010, 01:58 AM
I'm sorry...but now you're just being your extreme self. I don't know you enough to hate you. I do, however, know you enough to use my 'ignore' button again.

As a matter of fact, you don't know me enough to do anything, so I take that back. I think it is impossible to know anyone based on a few posts. If you want to use your 'ignore button', that's ok with me. If you don't agree with what I am saying, or if you don't like it, then don't talk to me ever again. I don't know you, you don't know me, and we'll probably never know each other because it's just not possible, like I said, to actually know someone from what they post on a message board. By the way, I will ignore you, too. This is my last message to you. I'm sorry if I'm rude, but I think you are treating me unfairly.



Okay. Just want to clarify a point, the person who said you were ESL wasn't accusing you of anything, but was actually trying to defend you not being a troll, but possibly someone who doesn't have as good grasp of the English language and thus might not always be able to articulate yourself as you would like to. People worried you might be a troll as some of what you were saying was starting not to make sense, then someone said, "It might be because the person is ESL and/or young" thus not quite as able to write exactly what they mean.

That's all. No one was saying that being ESL was a bad thing, goodness we have many people from around the world here and I am always in awe that they are willing to communicate in a language not their own. Heaven knows I could never do that.

But it might explain why people are getting a bit confused with your posts. Have patience with us, and we will try to have patience with you. :)

(btw only one person here suspected you were a troll, most everyone else came to your defense. One person got it wrong, relax, it's cool, as you say no one has sent you a PM or anything, we's good :) )


Thank you for your message, and I am trying to be patient, it's just that this has never happened to me on AW before. I thought I was getting along with everyone and then this happens. Thank you for being so nice to me even though like this person said, I don't deserve it.

Magali.

Gillhoughly
04-10-2010, 02:21 AM
After a day of staring at a screen and nothing coming out of my brain but gibberish, I'm ready to believe that English isn't my language at all, much less a first, second or fifth language. (I ain't gonna git into numberin'.)

Everyone take a chill pill and remember this is AW, which is better than all the other boards out there.

MagaliFuentes--pick a book you absolutely have to write, something that you are excited about. Polish, get it beta-read, shop it to death, work on book 2 while it's making the rounds so your head doesn't explode.

Waiting to finish 10 books first isn't how it's done. It just delays one's career. Each book is a learning experience.

Now, go to this page, print the essay there (http://www.joebobbriggs.com/jbamerica/1991/jba910510.html), tape it over your desk, and read it every day before you start writing.

That goes for the rest of you, too.

I'm going to read it again now just to get out of this slump I'm in today.

Margarita Skies
04-10-2010, 03:29 AM
After a day of staring at a screen and nothing coming out of my brain but gibberish, I'm ready to believe that English isn't my language at all, much less a first, second or fifth language. (I ain't gonna git into numberin'.)

Everyone take a chill pill and remember this is AW, which is better than all the other boards out there.

MagaliFuentes--pick a book you absolutely have to write, something that you are excited about. Polish, get it beta-read, shop it to death, work on book 2 while it's making the rounds so your head doesn't explode.

Waiting to finish 10 books first isn't how it's done. It just delays one's career. Each book is a learning experience.

Now, go to this page, print the essay there (http://www.joebobbriggs.com/jbamerica/1991/jba910510.html), tape it over your desk, and read it every day before you start writing.

That goes for the rest of you, too.

I'm going to read it again now just to get out of this slump I'm in today.


Thanks. I entered the link and since I don't have a printer, I put it in my favorites. :)

Kateness
04-10-2010, 03:36 AM
gillhoughly,

thank you for that article.

It has made me feel better about not working on a tough point in my WIP today and instead writing a much more enjoyable, if less sensible, piece.

Gillhoughly
04-10-2010, 04:44 AM
I :heart: Joe Bob.

That essay changed how I look at writing. It's my litmus test. The people who *get* it are writers and often friends for life.

Jamesaritchie
04-10-2010, 04:45 AM
D) Courier or Times New Roman are equally welcome as fonts. I prefer reading and writing in TNR.
D) The fact the book was up on CreateSpace means the first publication rights to THAT BOOK are gone forever.
.

Times or Courier are not equally acceptable to everyone. When you have to edit by hand, many do like Times fine, but many others consider Times an absolute pain in the ass. I'm one of those. I won't edit Times without a gun being pointed at my head. I know other editors who feel the same way.

We'll edit when we have to, but we sure as hell don't like it, and do not find both fonts equally acceptable.

Nothing is more unimportant than first rights with a novel of this type. Either a publisher wants it or they don't, and it'll be handled exactly the same way as any otehr novel, including all the self-pubbed novels that have gone to mainstream publishers. It's simply bought and pubished.

In this case, I doubt if first rights would be gone, even if they did matter. But they don't.

Margarita Skies
04-10-2010, 04:50 AM
Times or Courier are not equally acceptable to everyone. When you have to edit by hand, many do like Times fine, but many others consider Times an absolute pain in the ass. I'm one of those. I won't edit Times without a gun being pointed at my head. I know other editors who feel the same way.

We'll edit when we have to, but we sure as hell don't like it, and do not find both fonts equally acceptable.

Nothing is more unimportant than first rights with a novel of this type. Either a publisher wants it or they don't, and it'll be handled exactly the same way as any otehr novel, including all the self-pubbed novels that have gone to mainstream publishers. It's simply bought and pubished.

In this case, I doubt if first rights would be gone, even if they did matter. But they don't.


Jamesaritchie,

Thanks to you, I now have hope in my previously-self-published, but retired work that it will be looked at and considered if I make some major changes to it, which I've already started doing. I truly appreciate your advice. You have saved the day.


I consider this question solved now.

Sincerely
Magali.

Kateness
04-10-2010, 07:06 AM
I :heart: Joe Bob.

That essay changed how I look at writing. It's my litmus test. The people who *get* it are writers and often friends for life.

I'm not pretentious/cocky/arrogant/thesaurus-word to claim I *get* it (unpublished, unagented bum I know I am) but I can at least claim to be able to read it :D

Gillhoughly
04-10-2010, 07:22 AM
Times or Courier are not equally acceptable to everyone.

Use any font you like when you're working on the MS. That's up to the writer.

But for the submission copy use TNR or Courier. Some publisher guidelines specify them, even mentioning the size. It hints that some writers, wanting to squeeze as much into their 50 pages as possible, used a mini font! :D



I dislike Courier; it reminds me of the bad ol' days before I traded my typewriter for a word processor.

When I get in an e-copy of any work in Courier, I globally change it to TNR until I'm ready to send it back to the writer.

kullervo
04-10-2010, 07:57 AM
When you say write ten "stories," do you mean stories or novels? Novels, as in more-than-75,000 words each? Again, I'm trying to figure out the word counts you're using.

Old Hack
04-10-2010, 10:26 AM
Times or Courier are not equally acceptable to everyone. When you have to edit by hand, many do like Times fine, but many others consider Times an absolute pain in the ass. I'm one of those. I won't edit Times without a gun being pointed at my head. I know other editors who feel the same way.

James, I prefer a seriffed font because those little serifs seem to anchor the words onto the page: I have vision problems, and without them I sometimes struggle to read text, particularly on-screen. And I know of several agents and publishers who specify TNR as their font-of-choice for submissions.

I can understand that you don't like it: but that doesn't make it unacceptable throughout the whole of the publishing world.It just makes it unacceptable to you.


Nothing is more unimportant than first rights with a novel of this type. Either a publisher wants it or they don't, and it'll be handled exactly the same way as any otehr novel, including all the self-pubbed novels that have gone to mainstream publishers. It's simply bought and pubished.

That's not true, I'm afraid. There are quite a few publishers out there which won't even consider a book if it's already been published in their territory. Some will: more publishers are opening up to the possibility now. But still, if a book has been previously self-published this can be a stumbling-block. It isn't always, but it can.


In this case, I doubt if first rights would be gone, even if they did matter. But they don't.

This, I'm afraid, is just nonsensical. As with so many other things, there can only be one first time for books. They can't be published a first time more than once. So the instant you self-publish your book, its first rights are gone forever. And yes, to some publishers, that matters a whole lot.

Margarita Skies
04-11-2010, 01:30 AM
Use any font you like when you're working on the MS. That's up to the writer.

But for the submission copy use TNR or Courier. Some publisher guidelines specify them, even mentioning the size. It hints that some writers, wanting to squeeze as much into their 50 pages as possible, used a mini font! :D



I dislike Courier; it reminds me of the bad ol' days before I traded my typewriter for a word processor.

When I get in an e-copy of any work in Courier, I globally change it to TNR until I'm ready to send it back to the writer.


Hello, Gillhoughly. It's very nice to see you again. When I am typing my manuscripts, I type them in Verdana 10 font because I just love the look of this font. I find it so cute, but when I am ready to send my work to an agent, I usually change the formatting to whatever that agent specifies, meaning if the agent wants Times New Roman 12 font, double-spaced, one inch margins, that's exactly what I format it to.



When you say write ten "stories," do you mean stories or novels? Novels, as in more-than-75,000 words each? Again, I'm trying to figure out the word counts you're using.


Hi. I am talking about ten novels. I don't write short stories anymore. Yes, my novels range from 80,000 to 90,000 words, but I try my hardest not to make it larger than 90,000 words. Oh, and I am using my word-processor word counts, Microsoft Office Word 2007.

shaldna
04-11-2010, 01:55 AM
I will not query any of my manuscripts until I have at least ten more finished manuscripts. Thank you everyone.


wHAT?

Ugh. I'm out.

shaldna
04-11-2010, 02:01 AM
oooooh. I am so going to get my brother to make me an 'I :heart: Joe Bob' teeshirt.

As for the rest of this thread, I really can't be annoyed with the drama. So I am bowing out.

shaldna
04-11-2010, 02:04 AM
Hi. I am talking about ten novels. I don't write short stories anymore. Yes, my novels range from 80,000 to 90,000 words, but I try my hardest not to make it larger than 90,000 words. Oh, and I am using my word-processor word counts, Microsoft Office Word 2007.


I thought you said all your novels were over 200k each so.............ah screw it.

Ignore button come hither.

Uncarved
04-11-2010, 03:32 AM
Are you writing stories from beginning to end or are you just sitting down and typing a tale and when you get to a certain word count you say you are "finished". A story has to have subplots and backstory, a beginning, a middle, and a very neatly tied up ending that won't leave the reader going "Huh?"

Don't write to a word count, write a story and then find out how long your story is.
Then take a nice red pen and make it bleed
Keep writing it til its tight and right.

Publishers want a flawless story, the rest is really just pretty wrapping paper and ribbon.

brainstorm77
04-11-2010, 03:59 AM
If you are going to ignore my posts and this thread, why did you bother replying to it again?

No offence meant, but your current posts don't match what you said in the previous posts.

Soccer Mom
04-11-2010, 05:28 AM
Enough of the sniping. Everyone just let it go.

Gravity
04-12-2010, 12:30 AM
I dislike Courier; it reminds me of the bad ol' days before I traded my typewriter for a word processor.



^ This. Quoted for absolute friggin' truth.

Okay, confession time: when I nine years old I was struck by a car. I nearly lost my right leg, and suffered a brain injury which left me dyslexic (that hasn't stopped me from being commercially published, but sure hasn't helped either).

When I was sixteen my parents begged and cajoled and chivvied me into taking a typing class ("it'll help you later in life!"), forgetting , of course, that dyslexics make crappy typists.

My fears proved true. The instructor was a shrew, the class a nightmare, and in general I felt a bit like Lenny in Of Mice and Men. At the end I got a pity grade of D-, and ever since then when I see Courier I hear that harridan's shrill voice sounding like a klaxon in my head: "Raise your wrists! Go faster! Don't look at your hands, look at the text!!"

kullervo
04-12-2010, 01:19 AM
I hate Courier because it is the font of screenwriting. The thousand-plus awful screenplays I have read over the years make my eyeballs bleed when I see Courier. It is the Font of Crap.

NewKidOldKid
04-12-2010, 01:52 AM
Why is it necessary to have 10 novels finished before you query the first one? That totally confused me. And also, how fast do you write?! 10 novels? Really? I have trouble finishing one!

Jersey Chick
04-12-2010, 02:59 AM
Count me in as another who hates Courier. I like TNR or Book Antiqua.

I also don't get why you want ten mss finished before querying one. It's probably more advantageous to write and polish one, and while that's out on submission, work on the next. Lather, rinse, repeat. Just my $0.02.