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View Full Version : Bras (a question for the ladies in the group)



kaitie
04-04-2010, 02:06 PM
Serious question, however humorous. ;) I'm just wondering about decency levels here and thought I'd get some opinions.

I've always been taught, probably mostly because I used to be rather well endowed, that going without a bra is pretty much indecent/slutty looking. I lost quite a bit of weight awhile back, however, and some of the initial necessity isn't as big of a deal anymore. Anyway, I've got two outfits that don't really go well with a bra, and I'm trying to decide if it would be okay or look trashy to go without. One is a cute, almost halter-top type shirt. The second is a dress that I just bought that has thin spaghetti straps. I could wear a shirt underneath, but it's a lot cuter without. Problem is, both basically make wearing a bra pretty difficult because of the style of the tops. I could try to get a strapless one and see how that works.

I think they both look okay without, but I can't help but feel a little embarrassed at the thought of going out in public braless. Anyone else feel the same way? Or is it really not that big of a deal? I mean, they aren't the kind of tops I'd be hanging out of or anything. I just can't help but feel self conscious.

Lisa Cox
04-04-2010, 03:59 PM
I can't go without a bra because after pregnancy and a period of refusing to conform (I dunno, I was on a high horse), I reckon I can now tuck my lady boulders into my socks. Having said that, do whatever you feel comfortable with. Rock the braless look. It's not a big deal. :)

Ol' Fashioned Girl
04-04-2010, 04:16 PM
In ancient times, it was said, "If you can carry a pencil underneath, you've got no business going braless."

Since I could carry a desktop model PC under mine, I eschew the braless look.

Devil Ledbetter
04-04-2010, 04:17 PM
No big deal. It's not a matter of "decency" but of how you feel. If you feel those outfits look best braless, leave it off.

Fran
04-04-2010, 04:43 PM
I too need my scaffolding, and it's a pain in the arse sometimes. If I could get away with going braless I would. Are you going to feel more comfortable wearing your top and dress without one? If so, go without. :)

kaitie
04-04-2010, 04:52 PM
Well, more comfortable in a physical sense, yes. ;) I'm pretty sure that goes without say haha.

Fran
04-04-2010, 05:10 PM
Well, more comfortable in a physical sense, yes. ;) I'm pretty sure that goes without say haha.

What about mentally? :tongue

Nah, I just meant if you're going to be wearing the top or dress and be really self-conscious about not wearing a bra, to the point where it makes you feel uncomfortable, it might be an idea to look in to strapless ones.

aadams73
04-04-2010, 05:14 PM
No, it's not trashy, and it's not that big a deal to go braless, but you need to do what makes you feel comfortable. Strapless bras can be very unobstrusive these days, and they even have these: http://tinyurl.com/yap8pek

Alternatively, wear your new clothes without the bra around the house, then to the store, etc. You may find you just need to get used to the idea of going without.

Just don't forget you'll look better if you feel comfortable.

kaitie
04-04-2010, 05:17 PM
Do the adhesive sort of things actually work? I've seen those before, but I wonder how supportive they can actually be. Anyone tried them?

Thump
04-04-2010, 05:25 PM
Personally, I do kinda of find it trashy but apparently that's just me :p I find it doesn't bother me as much when the lady in question has such tiny lady-bumps that a bra would make her basically flat. Anything more than that and that top/dress better provide some good support on its own :p

I have two dresses that are tight enough in the area to hold up my bazoomas and are the only clothes I wear braless. That said, I'm fairly well-endowed in that area (and they are not perky :( ) I just don't care for the pointy, jiggly Princess-Leia-in-New-Hope look.

jilly61
04-04-2010, 05:31 PM
I'd go with the strapless bra option. If you don't feel right going without then the adhesive option probably isn't for you.

Ms Hollands
04-04-2010, 05:42 PM
Strapless bras can be very unobstrusive these days, and they even have these: http://tinyurl.com/yap8pek



My God, that model doesn't exactly need to bother!

I'm rather blessed in the bust area and some halter neck tops are in fact supportive enough without needing to wear a bra, but it totally depends on the top. If you feel supported by the top, try getting away with it. Alternatively, a bikini top underneath can sometimes work too (apparently some guys really love that look...?).

I've tried many a strapless bra and it really is hit and miss. You have to try them for a few hours before you really know if they work, but some do. Also, you can get clear plastic bra straps now. They can be a good backup in your bag if you fear the strapless isn't working.

And if you do go braless and you're worried about smuggling peanuts (ie, nipples showing), band aids *apparently* work, but I've never tried this (grosses me out). Tapes apparently work too, but again, the thought of sticky stuff applied there grosses me out.

kayleamay
04-04-2010, 05:43 PM
This reminds me of a very old joke.

Q: What do women in their forties have between their breasts that women in their twenties don't?

A: A belly button

My two pesos: Wear what you're comfortable with. There are a gazillion varieties in strapless bras these days, or go without. I don't think the lack of a bra equates to trashy.

Yeshanu
04-04-2010, 05:46 PM
I'm with aadams--try it around the house, and see how you feel. Also go to the store and try on some strapless bras, and see how they feel.

Leah J. Utas
04-04-2010, 06:03 PM
Echo aadams and Yeshanu. Give it a shot around the house or even take a walk around the neighborhood. If you think you look trashy it'll be perceived that way. If you're okay with it, then that will be reflected back to you. Whatever happens, hold your head high.

Fran
04-04-2010, 06:04 PM
When I was last being fitted, the nice lady told me when you're buying a strapless bra you should buy one back size smaller and one cup size bigger to get the same support. :)

kaitie
04-04-2010, 06:08 PM
Huh, interesting thought. Thanks Fran. Part of the problem is finding bras in Japan, where women are generally so under-endowed that bras are super padded and tiny. I always order from America (also sizes here are different). I actually did go today and look, but I didn't find a single strapless bra at the store I was at. How crazy is that? I'd probably have to find an actual lingerie shop.

Sage
04-04-2010, 06:09 PM
When I was last being fitted, the nice lady told me when you're buying a strapless bra you should buy one back size smaller and one cup size bigger to get the same support. :)
Interesting.

rhymegirl
04-04-2010, 06:41 PM
I have a few sundresses for which I must go bra-less. (the bra straps would show)

I don't have a problem going bra-less. I don't think it's a big deal these days.

Snowstorm
04-04-2010, 06:56 PM
The issue seems to be you're self-conscious about going braless, kaitie. Perhaps by addressing the reason you're self-conscious you can find your answer: Having no bra (when the "rules" say you're supposed to wear one?), nipples showing, the odd feeling of being unbound, or needing the support? For me, if my nipples are noticeable through a plain turtleneck, I wear a bra. If the shirt is real loud, lots of flowers or something like that where they're camouflaged, I go without (I HATE bras).

I read the post from Fran how strapless bras should be bought smaller across the chest, that just makes me squirm. Did I mention I hate bras? Good luck.

jennontheisland
04-04-2010, 07:00 PM
Wear what you want. Other people will make judgments regardless.

kaitie
04-04-2010, 07:02 PM
Eh, I have noticeable nipples depending on what I'm wearing anyway. And in general, I don't mind all that much. I'm not a big fan of bras either, and I'll go without at home most of the time. I have one shirt right now that has a built in bra, so I don't wear one with that.

I think it's mostly the concern of bouncing around or falling out. That probably sounds goofy, huh? This coming from the girl who was told at practice one day that when I was running my boobs were bouncing, and I had to jump up and down a few times to see if they really did. :tongue I never claimed to be logical in my weirdness. There's also the factor of having been taught since I was in junior high that you always wear a bra in public, so I tend to feel a little naked without.

CatSlave
04-04-2010, 07:17 PM
Put a couple of bandaids over your nipples and be comfortable.

jennontheisland
04-04-2010, 07:23 PM
Dear gods how could that be comfortable?? And taking them off?? Eek!!

Snowstorm
04-04-2010, 07:27 PM
Dear gods how could that be comfortable?? And taking them off?? Eek!!\

Yeee. I think my nipples just inverted at the thought!

CatSlave
04-04-2010, 07:33 PM
There are "no ouchie" bandages made for kids now.
It's a lot less painful than having your ribcage constricted so you can't breathe right.

CatSlave
04-04-2010, 07:35 PM
Whaddaya think we all burned our bras for in the '70's?
So we would all turn into Fashionistas?

Be comfortable.

jennontheisland
04-04-2010, 07:39 PM
Um, if you can't breathe, you need to be fitted and get a bra that's your size.

As for hiding nipples... I'm adamantly opposed to it. I spend inordinate amounts of time searching for bras that don't have padding and forming (forming? really? as if my tits aren't going to create a form of their own) designed to hide the fact that I have nipples. Stupid things are three times the price of the armour plated ones in the mall too.

Nipples.

Nipples.

People have them.

If they're under something (shirt, dress, bathing suit) it's not illegal for them to be apparent.

CatSlave
04-04-2010, 07:53 PM
She said she was modest, though.
It's okay to be modest.

Ambrosia
04-04-2010, 07:55 PM
I do not wear bras and haven't for many, many years. This is why: Bras and Breast Cancer (http://www.all-natural.com/bras.html)

I would rather my nipples show and people think I am slutty than increase my already increased chance (family history) of getting breast cancer.

There are now foam thingies (technical term :tongue) that you can put over your nipples to keep them from showing. I saw those in Wal-Mart of all places. I am sure you could find them on the Web.

Like the corsets of ages gone past, fashion is dictating something that is harmful for a woman's health. I refuse to play along.

jennontheisland
04-04-2010, 07:59 PM
One can be modest and braless at the same time.

How is hiding nipples behind a padded bra modest if the shirt over the bra has a plunging neckline designed to display cleavage?

Braless under a top that fully covers the decolletage seems more modest to me.

Yeshanu
04-04-2010, 08:37 PM
I read Ambrosia's link and took off my bra. :)

Seriously, I have to wear one at work, and I'm big enough that I need to wear one while out of the house. I also definitely need one while exercising--not wearing one can be painful. There's such a thing as too much movement! But I feel better around the house if I'm not wearing one.

I don't go out of my way to find bras that don't hide my nipples, but I don't mind at all if nipples are showing. :D

Chumplet
04-04-2010, 09:25 PM
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's my high beams shining at everyone in the office. When I wear a T-shirt, I wear a padded bra even though I'm a C-cup. At home I go without, but when in public I make sure my girls are reined in.

I have a couple of sundresses that don't fit anymore (bleh) but I wore those without a bra because the fabric was tightly woven enough to keep me supported.

Without seeing the actual dresses you're wearing, it's hard to say whether you have reason to worry.

If you 'swing' too much, find a bit of jersey fabric to put around the girls. Maybe you can buy a small t-shirt, cut it so you have a band, and pull that over your boobies. It will at least make you feel more secure.

rhymegirl
04-04-2010, 09:32 PM
I don't think the bra-less thing is as much of an issue as all of these young women I see who seem to love to show off their bellies (low jeans, high tops) even though they have big stomachs! No. We do not want to see your big, bulging stomach.

My daughter is very slender. She can get away with wearing outfits that show the midriff. Others cannot.

Libbie
04-04-2010, 11:52 PM
I don't think there's anything "slutty" or "indecent" about going braless. I think for most women it's not a very flattering look once you're out of your teen years, though. A bra just makes you look more put-together, like you've thought about your appearance, you know? Just as putting a few minutes into doing your hair nicely or putting on a little eyeshadow and lip gloss can make you look much better and more attractive when you go to the grocery store, rather than just throwing on some sweats and putting your hair into a sloppy ponytail. Just my opinion.

If you are looking for a good strapless, I must recommend Lunaire. You can actually read my overjoyed Amazon review for this bra here (http://www.amazon.com/Lunaire-Strapless-underwired-bra/product-reviews/B000RGL48Y/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R3RD0LYGAHI90G). I don't know what your boobular situation is, but I'm a 34DD/34E depending on the bra, so my breasts are rather difficult to support in the best of situations, but especially when it comes to strapless bras. This bra is AMAZING. The ONLY strapless bra worth its price (which was extremely reasonable, I must say) and the ONLY strapless bra I have ever been able to wear with confidence all day long. If it could keep my boobs looking shapely and perky and make them feel comfy and bounce-free all day long, it will surely work for anybody. Best part of all: No back fat. It gives you a great silhouette. Most of my strappy bras can't even accomplish the "no back fat" trick.

Buy it one cup size larger than your usual fit, but the same band size.

AND BY THE WAY, BRAS DO NOT CAUSE BREAST CANCER. That is a ridiculous urban legend, and is not supported by ANY scientific study. http://breastcancer.about.com/od/riskfactorsindetail/a/bras-breast-cancer.htm My goodness.

Libbie
04-04-2010, 11:54 PM
Do the adhesive sort of things actually work? I've seen those before, but I wonder how supportive they can actually be. Anyone tried them?

they certainly have never worked for me, but I've got some serious gazongas. No mere adhesive will ever keep them in place.

Mr Flibble
04-05-2010, 12:26 AM
I have worn a bra once in the last oooh couple of years?

And that was last night, because the dress, ahem, needed it.

Infer what you will about me. I hate bras. They itch something chronic and I can get away without wearing one while not looking like the girls have migrated to my navel.

Ambrosia
04-05-2010, 01:03 AM
<snip>

AND BY THE WAY, BRAS DO NOT CAUSE BREAST CANCER. That is a ridiculous urban legend, and is not supported by ANY scientific study. http://breastcancer.about.com/od/riskfactorsindetail/a/bras-breast-cancer.htm My goodness.

My goodness, indeed. I am beginning to think this is personal, though I don't know why since I don't even know you.

Definition of Urban Legend (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=0TX&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&defl=en&q=define:Urban+myth&ei=WP24S92WF4OKlwe98qSVCg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE)

Nothing that I said was distorted, exaggerated, or fabricated. I am not spreading stories I heard on the street or the Internet. I was relaying information that I originally heard on a news report on TV, later backed up by additional research and reading. Which is what I do with all information I receive anywhere before I buy into it.

From 1991 through 1993, Sydney Ross Singer and his assistant Soma Grismaijer interviewed 4,700 women from 5 US cities to see if their thought that the constrictive nature of bras which compress the lymphatic system could cause breast cancer. They titled their study the BBC (Bra and Breast Cancer Study). This study and the results are detailed in their book, Dressed to Kill (http://www.amazon.com/Dressed-Kill-between-Breast-Cancer/dp/1930858051/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270413517&sr=1-1).

This website, Optimal Breathing (http://www.breathing.com/articles/brassieres.htm), gives a list of studies that mention the connection between bras and breast cancer and possible causal links. It is not the only website that does so, and the book listed is not the only book out there that has information in it that backs up Singer's study.

I could go on and very possibly find the out-of-the-mainstream studies that are out there, but I have no desire to spend my time researching what I already accept as logical. You don't believe it, fine. To each their own. Just next time you call something an urban myth, be sure it hasn't any studies to back it up first.</snip>

Yeshanu
04-05-2010, 01:35 AM
From 1991 through 1993, Sydney Ross Singer and his assistant Soma Grismaijer interviewed 4,700 women from 5 US cities to see if their thought that the constrictive nature of bras which compress the lymphatic system could cause breast cancer. They titled their study the BBC (Bra and Breast Cancer Study). This study and the results are detailed in their book, Dressed to Kill (http://www.amazon.com/Dressed-Kill-between-Breast-Cancer/dp/1930858051/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270413517&sr=1-1).


Ambrosia,

I didn't take the comment that Libbie made as being in any way personal.

I do have some comments about the studies you report though: asking someone if they believe that something causes something else does not a scientific study make. What they've got is the opinion of 4500 women, most of whom are almost certainly not research scientists.

I've yet to look up the other website you link to, but do be aware that just because something's written in a book published by a reputable publisher doesn't mean it's science. However, if a lot of people believe it's true, it will begin to take on a life of its own. It becomes "common knowledge," whether it's true or not.

Once again, this IS NOT meant to put you or your opinion down, but only to try for balance. What I am saying is that we need to be more critical in our reviews of "studies," and it's important for every modern person to know something about how science and experiments work.

As for me, I still am not wearing my bra, and try not to unless I'm out of the house. There are other issues besides breast cancer to consider here...

:Hug2:

CACTUSWENDY
04-05-2010, 01:42 AM
Things to consider if a bra is in question: :evil


Do your boobs hang low?
Do they wobble to and fro?
Can you tie them in a knot?
Can you tie them in a bow?
Can you throw them o'er your shoulder
Like a bag that has a boulder?
Do your boobs hang low?

Do your boobs sit high?
Do they point up to the sky?
Do they wrinkle when they're cold?
Do they turn on every guy?
Do you wave them at your lover?
Do they run and look for cover?
Do your boobs sit high?

Do your boobs flop wide?
Do they flap from side to side?
Do they wave in the breeze
From the slightest little tease?
Do they pop from your brassiere?
When you drive, do they like to steer?
Do your boobs flop wide?

Do your boobs expand?
When you spend a couple grand?
Do they falsely fill your blouse?
Make you master of the house?
Do you flash them every way?
Just like Pammy A.?
Do your boobs expand?

Yeshanu
04-05-2010, 01:49 AM
:ROFL:

Thanks, CW.

scarletpeaches
04-05-2010, 02:09 AM
I only wear a bra if I'm going out of the house, to limit jiggling. And I'm only 34b so could probably get away with it if my top was snug enough and kept the girls still. As for nipple-exposure? Who cares? We all have them. Deal with it.

Bras irritate me, even if I wash before wearing. When I'm at home I live in pyjamas anyway. I'm so lazy when it comes to dressing up. I bathe, wash my hair, put on clean clothes, venture out among the fleshpeoples and as soon as I get home, it all comes off. I pull the pyjamas on, boot up the computer and get to work.

Ambrosia
04-05-2010, 02:31 AM
Loved that, Cactus Wendy. :D

Yeshanu, I am not quoting the study or doing it justice. It wasn't opinions-based. I don't have the book in front of me to refer to, though. So I can't answer specifics. I have created my own study before when in college on a different subject and I do understand what goes into creating one. 4,700 women from 5 different cities is a decent size initial study. They also found that women in Fiji (I sure hope I spelled that right) didn't have an incidence of breast cancer until they started wearing bras when going to office settings.

I think it is up to everyone to question what they hear, regardless the source, and do their own research to find out to the best of their ability what is true and what isn't. I do this on a regular basis. I don't buy a lot of what comes out as medical "fact". I think it is because I am from Missouri originally and I want them to "show me". :D

backslashbaby
04-05-2010, 02:44 AM
I hate, hate, HATE that it's considered slutty. I like my natural shape, and unless I'm jogging or something, I don't care that they move a bit when I move. Oh, but that's entirely too noticeable for society, eh? I must want 'you' to notice them too much :(

So, I don't have the guts to go braless, even in my yard. But I think it looks nice and normal to have some movement there -- no biggie. Maybe I'll get all feminista this year, go out braless, and dare someone to act as if it's about them or sex at all!

Up till now, Kaitie, I just have lots of colored jogbras that I wear under whatever. They show in many summer casual clothes, but nobody has seemed to care or think it strange. Folks did care about regular brastraps (colored). Meh, it's insane anyway, so do what you like :D

Susie
04-05-2010, 03:15 AM
Bra? I've heard of that confounded contraption 'n I know who invented it too. An evil-minded man! :D

kaitie
04-05-2010, 04:13 AM
I'm gonna definitely try a strapless variety and see how that feels. It might be that I try it and it annoys me more than going without.

Backslashbaby, you totally hit on something I completely agree with. I think part of what makes me uncomfortable is that idea that if you don't wear one you're trying to show off. The funny thing is that my reasoning for not wanting to wear one is that the straps would show, which I've always personally thought looks a lot worse than not wearing one in general.

It's interesting to see opinions. As for the modesty thing, it's sort of funny because I was wondering if I was being too revealing for Japan with just the spaghetti straps, but I don't really care. ;) I just happen to live somewhere where it's not really considered okay to wear sleeveless/strapless things in general. You definitely don't see things like midriff baring shirts around here.

Libbie
04-05-2010, 04:19 AM
Thanks, Yeshanu. I couldn't have said it better than you did. The book "Dressed to Kill" claims to reference a study but it was a very flawed study indeed, and subsequent, double-blind, properly conducted studies have been unable to find any causal link between bras and breast cancer. The American Cancer Society has spoken out against the book, and has taken the very clear stance that bras have never been shown to cause cancer.

The only correlation is that women who tend to wear bras less often tend to have lower frequency in cases of cancer. CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION, and claiming it is can be dangerous. I am quoting from the link I posted, which explains it all quite clearly, and which any of you are, of course, free to read for yourself.



Sydney Ross Singer and Soma Grismaijer wrote a book in 1995 titled, "Dressed to Kill." Their book was the result of their observations - not the results of a scientific medical study. Singer and Grismaijer reported that women in westernized cultures who wore bras had a higher rate of breast cancer than women in traditional cultures who rarely wore a bra. Their observations did not include known risk factors for breast cancer, so data about diet (http://breastcancer.about.com/od/riskfactorsindetail/a/diet_bc_risk.htm), weight (http://breastcancer.about.com/od/riskfactorsindetail/a/weight_bc_risk.htm), exercise (http://breastcancer.about.com/od/riskfactorsindetail/a/exercise_bc.htm), start of menstruation, pregnancies (http://breastcancer.about.com/od/riskfactorsindetail/a/preg_lower_risk.htm), and breastfeeding (http://breastcancer.about.com/od/riskfactorsindetail/a/breastfd_prevnt.htm) was not considered.

...

The American Cancer Society says that no scientifically valid studies have been done to prove the truth of the "bras cause breast cancer" myth. ACS mentions one epidemiologic study that compares rates of breast cancer for braless women and bra-wearing women. This study reported that risk was slightly less for braless women. But the researchers admit that bras themselves don't seem to be the smoking gun. Most women who go braless are fairly lean and small breasted. Women who have full breasts or who are overweight (http://breastcancer.about.com/od/riskfactorsindetail/a/weight_bc_risk.htm) wear bras for support and comfort. Having extra body weight or having more than the average amount of breast tissue are factors that increases your risk for developing breast cancer.


There is indeed a correlation between going braless and risk for cancer. However, the correlation is that women who have body types that would allow them to feel more comfortable WITHOUT a bra are also women who are naturally at lower risk for cancer; women who have body types that make them LESS likely to be comfortable braless -- and therefore more likely to wear a bra -- are also women who are naturally at slightly higher risk for breast cancer. THE BRAS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Incidence of bra-wearing can be seen as a symptom of the risk factors for breast cancer, but bras themselves will NOT increase a woman's risk for developing cancer.

I note that all of the "studies" listed on Optimal Breathing are citing the same "study" (uncontrolled observation that did not factor in known risks for breast cancer) done by Singer and Grismaijer. If they are all using the same badly flawed source material, all those "studies" on Optimal Breathing are equally flawed and cannot be taken seriously.

Speaking of Singer and Grismaijer, they are the co-authors of other alternative-medicine books, including one that claims sleeping on one's back causes Alzheimer's disease. Grismaijer doesn't even have a background in science or research; before writing her observation-based scare-book, she worked as an optician. [<---yes, this statement is ad hominem but seriously...come on. Sleeping on your back? Really?]

I have nothing personal against you at all, Ambrosia. I'm sure you're a very sweet and well-intentioned person. But I am simply not the kind of person who can sit back and watch the spread of misinformation without speaking up when I know that it's misinformation. Even when I believe the misinformation to be shared with the purest and kindest of intentions. The plain truth is that spreading nonfacts as if they are facts can be very disruptive to some folks. I've already received rep comments and personal messages thanking me for posting a link that countered your link, since the women who read your link became unnecessarily frightened of their own undergarments. I am happy to provide the voice of reason when I am knowledgeable enough to do so.

(For those who aren't aware, Ambrosia probably suspects that it's personal because I also spoke up in defense of the scientific method in the thread about ghosts. There, too, I meant nothing personal -- I only wanted to share the voice of reason -- and a little interesting info about some very cool psychological and neurological phenomena -- with the thread-readers, some of whom may have been unduly upset by the subject matter.)

fringle
04-05-2010, 04:40 PM
Katie, I've been debating going bra less with some of my new summer tops, but I too am squeamish about it. I'm a small person all around, with bra-optional sized breasts. I live in Moscow right now where girls wear the skimpiest, most revealing clothes I've ever seen. Seriously, I have bikinis that cover more skin than some of the outfits I've spotted (and snapped sneaky iphone pics of for my husband's enjoyment) around here. So I don't really know what my problem is, some sort of ingrained mental block I guess.

Ms Hollands
04-05-2010, 05:14 PM
Things to consider if a bra is in question: :evil


Do your boobs hang low?
Do they wobble to and fro?
Can you tie them in a knot?
Can you tie them in a bow?
Can you throw them o'er your shoulder
Like a bag that has a boulder?
Do your boobs hang low?

Do your boobs sit high?
Do they point up to the sky?
Do they wrinkle when they're cold?
Do they turn on every guy?
Do you wave them at your lover?
Do they run and look for cover?
Do your boobs sit high?

Do your boobs flop wide?
Do they flap from side to side?
Do they wave in the breeze
From the slightest little tease?
Do they pop from your brassiere?
When you drive, do they like to steer?
Do your boobs flop wide?

Do your boobs expand?
When you spend a couple grand?
Do they falsely fill your blouse?
Make you master of the house?
Do you flash them every way?
Just like Pammy A.?
Do your boobs expand?

Heheheh! Brilliant!

I get terrible back ache from having big boobs so I wear a bra for comfort. I probably wear only one of every three I buy, after their initial comfort turns out to be not so comfy. The rest are all good.

I wish someone would just invent something like the human hand to hold 'em up from just underneath. That'd be great. Works for me running down the stairs in just my jimjams too. :O)

Ambrosia
04-05-2010, 05:34 PM
The only correlation is that women who tend to wear bras less often tend to have lower frequency in cases of cancer.

I have a high incidence of several types of cancer in my family. I have had sisters who died of breast cancer. A correlation is good enough for me. The bra stays off.

Western medical science doesn't have exact causes for a lot of diseases. Medications are dispensed in a shot gun approach, hoping to catch whatever is causing the disease and affect a cure. For years doctors prescribed antibiotics for illnesses that the antibiotics didn't touch, illnesses that were viral instead of bacterial. Now there is a big push to back off of that model and be more judicious in the dispensing of antibiotics because bacteria have grown resistant to many types of antibiotics and so-called super bugs have developed. As an intelligent woman, I feel it is my responsibility to be as informed as possible when it comes to my own health and find ways to limit the possibility of catching an illness that might end my life, such as cancer. I have had precancerous lesions removed from my intestines and from my skin. Changes in diet will hopefully help keep additional lesions from returning as will things such as limiting my exposure to the sun. If going braless helps, then where is the harm in doing that? Why would you say sharing the information I shared was dangerous? I never said going without a bra would cure breast cancer, just reduce risk. Even you point out there has been shown a correlation. Would logic not dictate doing anything to further reduce one's risk is the right decision, regardless if you agreed with all of the results of a study?

This is an excerpt from Singer and Grismaijer's website giving information concerning them, since you brought it up. (Mods, I believe the quote is covered under "Fair Use".)


Sydney Ross Singer received a B.S. in biology from the University of Utah in 1979. He then spent two years in the biochemistry Ph.D. program at Duke University, followed by another two years at Duke in the anthropology Ph.D. program, receiving a Masterís Degree. He then attended the University of Texas Medical Branch (UTMB) at Galveston, Texas on a full academic scholarship, where he spent one year in the medical humanities Ph.D. program, and received an additional two years training in medical school.

Soma Grismaijer received an associateís degree from the College of Marin in the behavioral sciences, and a bachelor of arts from Sonoma State University in environmental studies and planning. In addition, she is an American Board of Opticianry-certified optician. She has been the President and Executive Director of the Good Shepherd Foundation since 1980, a charitable organization dedicated to the elimination of human and animal suffering.

The information quoted was taken from About the Authors on their website, here (http://www.selfstudycenter.org/about.htm). They bill themselves as medical anthropologists and they are married.

Anyone who knows me knows I am the first person to question information and check it out to see if it is an urban legend. I am also a woman who thinks for herself and am willing to keep an open mind and question everything, including accepted medical 'fact'. I have seen alternative medicine work. Eastern medicine and Western medicine is starting to bridge the gap and things once thought 'crazy' by most Western doctors, such as acupuncture, are now being encouraged. The world is growing in knowledge. An open mind to embrace it is not a bad thing.

Oh, and I hate bras. :D

Libbie
04-05-2010, 06:00 PM
Ambrosia, it's perfectly fine to hate bras and to choose not to wear them if you don't like them. I'm cool with that. But you are missing the point of the correlation entirely.

Women who are already less likely to develop breast cancer are also more likely to go braless, because their breasts are smaller. It is well known that smaller breasts tend to develop breast cancer less frequently than larger breasts.

Women who are likely to wear bras more often -- including all the time for comfort reasons -- are already more likely than small-breasted women to develop breast cancer because of the amount of estrogen in their bodies.

The causal factor is estrogen levels, which can be effected by many factors including diet, pregnancy/breastfeeding, and weight/body fat. Bras have never been shown to effect estrogen levels one way or the other. Bra-wearing doesn't cause you to develop breast cancer. Being bra-free will not prevent breast cancer.

I cannot state it more clearly than that.

You are, of course, free to manage your boobs in any way that feels good to you. I'm not trying to influence your fashion choices. I'm only trying to stop you from scaring the shit out of the other women here with your misinformation.

cray
04-05-2010, 06:06 PM
Ambrosia, it's perfectly fine to hate bras and to choose not to wear them if you don't like them. I'm cool with that. But you are missing the point of the correlation entirely.

Women who are already less likely to develop breast cancer are also more likely to go braless, because their breasts are smaller. It is well known that smaller breasts tend to develop breast cancer less frequently than larger breasts.

Women who are likely to wear bras more often -- including all the time for comfort reasons -- are already more likely than small-breasted women to develop breast cancer because of the amount of estrogen in their bodies.

The causal factor is estrogen levels, which can be effected by many factors including diet, pregnancy/breastfeeding, and weight/body fat. Bras have never been shown to effect estrogen levels one way or the other. Bra-wearing doesn't cause you to develop breast cancer. Being bra-free will not prevent breast cancer.

I cannot state it more clearly than that.

You are, of course, free to manage your boobs in any way that feels good to you. I'm not trying to influence your fashion choices. I'm only trying to stop you from scaring the shit out of the other women here with your misinformation.

yep. nice post.




Medications are dispensed in a shot gun approach, hoping to catch whatever is causing the disease and affect a cure.




meh,...i'd wager that most often medications are give first to treat symptoms.

much much less often to affect a cure.

Ambrosia
04-05-2010, 11:24 PM
Ambrosia, it's perfectly fine to hate bras and to choose not to wear them if you don't like them. I'm cool with that. But you are missing the point of the correlation entirely.

Women who are already less likely to develop breast cancer are also more likely to go braless, because their breasts are smaller. It is well known that smaller breasts tend to develop breast cancer less frequently than larger breasts.

Women who are likely to wear bras more often -- including all the time for comfort reasons -- are already more likely than small-breasted women to develop breast cancer because of the amount of estrogen in their bodies.

The causal factor is estrogen levels, which can be effected by many factors including diet, pregnancy/breastfeeding, and weight/body fat. Bras have never been shown to effect estrogen levels one way or the other. Bra-wearing doesn't cause you to develop breast cancer. Being bra-free will not prevent breast cancer.

I cannot state it more clearly than that.

You are, of course, free to manage your boobs in any way that feels good to you. I'm not trying to influence your fashion choices. I'm only trying to stop you from scaring the shit out of the other women here with your misinformation.

This is not a fashion choice for me, it is a health choice.

Just because you state your case that the causal factor for breast cancer is estrogen levels does not mean you are correct. I don't fault you for it though. You are assuming the mainstream thought is accurate.

Most breast cancer in women happens after menopause when estrogen levels fall, not before when the levels are high. There are multiple possible factors for the development of breast cancer and not only women get breast cancer. Men get it too. I suppose it is their estrogen level and larger breasts that cause the breast cancer in men? Women with all sizes of breasts and those that are not obese get breast cancer as well as women who are heavier. As an aside, it is more difficult to xray smaller breasts, to get a small breast on the machine and capture the image properly. I know the difficulty because I was an xray technician in the Air Force. Personal experience. And, I have seen thin women with small breasts show positive on the mammogram. If it was estrogen levels and only estrogen levels, cases of it in thin women who are not on some form of estrogen, as well as cases in men, would not exist.

Wearing bras may have nothing to do with it. Who knows? It could be environmental toxins combined with heredity combined with estrogen combined with diet combined with... you don't know. Researchers don't know. That is why they are still researching.

Fwiw, I doubt seriously I am "scaring the shit" out of anyone here with my views in this discussion. You have set yourself up as protector of the masses from my personal beliefs, and I find that offensive. If I were watching this discussion, I would be insulted that you thought so little of my reasoning ability to think I needed your protection from something I could research and make my own mind up on. Just sayin'. The inference is that my viewpoints are toxic to other members here, and I resent that. It is uncalled for.




meh,...i'd wager that most often medications are give first to treat symptoms.

much much less often to affect a cure.Cray, I thought I would give them the benefit of the doubt.

benbradley
04-05-2010, 11:34 PM
I have a high incidence of several types of cancer in my family. I have had sisters who died of breast cancer. A correlation is good enough for me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Ambrosia
04-05-2010, 11:51 PM
Thanks, Ben.

sadron
04-06-2010, 12:02 AM
I always go out with bra/top. Never without because I'd feel uneasy and uncomfortable.

Libbie
04-06-2010, 01:22 AM
Just because you state your case that the causal factor for breast cancer is estrogen levels does not mean you are correct. I don't fault you for it though. You are assuming the mainstream thought is accurate.

Only to show the accuracy of mainstream thought to other readers, I will continue this discussion with you for one more post.

First, let me point this out: I do indeed assume mainstream thought is accurate, because it has the highest incidence of facts supporting data. That's how most human beings determine "truth." That's why mainstream thought is "mainstream." You are implying it's silly or wrong to assign the label of "truth" or "fact" to that which is supported by scientific process. I would ask you, then, (though don't worry about answering it -- this will be my last post to you in this thread. This is a rhetorical question for any readers who are still interested to ponder) how should one define "truth" and "fact," if not "that which is evidenced by reality"?


Most breast cancer in women happens after menopause when estrogen levels fall, not before when the levels are high.

Actually, it's progestin that falls off steeply after menopause, providing little to no buffer against the remaining estrogen. Even though estrogen production does decrease after menopause, it doesn't decrease as sharply as progestin production, and it is therefore better able to effect the body.


There are multiple possible factors for the development of breast cancer and not only women get breast cancer. Men get it too. I suppose it is their estrogen level and larger breasts that cause the breast cancer in men?

I am quite aware that men also get breast cancer, and YES, it appears to be their female hormones, including estrogen, that causes it. Men do have estrogen and other female hormones in their bodies, just as women have androgens. And *sigh* once again, it is not larger breasts that CAUSE breast cancer. It is merely noted that women with larger breasts tend to develop it more often than women with smaller breasts. Women with larger breasts also tend to have higher estrogen levels, often due to body fat and diet, as I understand it. Once again, you have not disproven any point I made.



Women with all sizes of breasts and those that are not obese get breast cancer as well as women who are heavier.

I know that, and I never said otherwise. I only stated that women with higher body fat levels and with larger breasts tend to develop it more often than thinner women and women with smaller breasts. This is observation has been supported by multiple studies and has remained an unchanged feature of breast cancer epidemiology for decades. I never said, nor did any scientific study, that thin women and/or women with small breasts do NOT get breast cancer. Merely that they appear to be at a lower risk STATISTICALLY for developing this disease.


And, I have seen thin women with small breasts show positive on the mammogram.

No kidding. I am well aware that thin women and women with very tiny breasts get breast cancer. Go back through this thread, Ambrosia. Actually READ my posts this time, instead of just flailing and shrieking about them. Nowhere -- not anywhere -- did I make the claim that women with small breasts or thin women DO NOT get breast cancer. You are either not reading my posts at all, or you are being willfully ignorant in an attempt to discredit the information I shared. Either way, you are not succeeding in presenting a favorable argument for your side of the issue. Slow down, take a deep breath, and read the information. Maybe you will learn something.


If it was estrogen levels and only estrogen levels, cases of it in thin women who are not on some form of estrogen, as well as cases in men, would not exist.

This is where a basic education in science would pay off for you. Thin women still produce estrogen. Men produce estrogen. That is normal. The fact that you are unaware that men produce estrogen, and that women produce testosterone and other androgens, proves that you are lacking in knowledge of basic human biology.

By the way, I don't know a lot of men who wear bras. If bras cause breast cancer, then why do men get it?


Wearing bras may have nothing to do with it. Who knows? It could be environmental toxins combined with heredity combined with estrogen combined with diet combined with... you don't know. Researchers don't know. That is why they are still researching.

Oh, yes. "Toxins." that mysterious and anonymous catch-all, popular with people who don't know what they're talking about, but who want to sell you lots and lots of alternative health products. Cha-ching! Toxins! $$$$

We don't know; you're right. Nobody knows what causes cancer. It's important that the research continue because we do need to find out. What we do know right now, what decades of applying the scientific process to cancer research has taught us, is that high estrogen levels are strongly implicated in the development of breast cancer, and that is as close to a cause as we are capable of having at this point. We also know that no properly conducted study has ever implicated bra-wearing as a potential cause of breast cancer, and that the American Cancer Society, which employs the best cancer researchers in the nation, is certain bras are NOT a factor in developing or preventing breast cancer.




Fwiw, I doubt seriously I am "scaring the shit" out of anyone here with my views in this discussion.

Think again! As I already stated, I've received private comments from other forum members stating that your link frightened them, and that they were grateful to me for presenting a counterargument.



You have set yourself up as protector of the masses from my personal beliefs, and I find that offensive. If I were watching this discussion, I would be insulted that you thought so little of my reasoning ability to think I needed your protection from something I could research and make my own mind up on. Just sayin'.

Well, don't take it so personally then. I stand up to anybody who spreads misinformation as if it's fact. I'd stand up to Oprah Winfrey if I had the platform to do it effectively.

Maybe some folks reading this think poorly of me for countering your ridiculous woo link about how bras magically prevent your lymph system from draining (into your BREAST?? Hello.) But a few of them have already contacted me to thank me, and it's THOSE readers I care about helping. If some people are going to think poorly of me for having a rational and mostly polite debate with you, I am perfectly okay with that. It really doesn't bother me at all. Just sayin'.


The inference is that my viewpoints are toxic to other members here, and I resent that. It is uncalled for.

Your "viewpoint" (presenting a myth as a fact) did indeed cause some emotional distress to a few forum members. There it is, for whatever that may be worth to you. If you care about that as little as I care whether my presentation of rational thought has made some people not want to hug me, then you and I can both take some comfort in the fact that we understand each other's perspectives completely. Kumbaya.


As in the ghost thread, I am now through with discussing this topic further with you. It has been a stimulating discussion and I thank you for keeping it civil and for allowing me the opportunity to present real information to those who've read this thread.

Ambrosia
04-06-2010, 01:58 AM
Libbie...

You have attributed thoughts to me that have nothing to do with what I think, my experience, my beliefs or what I have said. You have been condescending in this thread as well as in the other thread and belittled me at every opportunity. You have shouted (full caps on full words and sentences). You have denigrated everything I have said and twisted my words. You use phrases that are meant to insult and cast me in a bad light, such as "flailing and shrieking". You have been rude and obnoxious in two conversations where it was not called for, at all. I have tried to stay polite while stating my point and took the tact of walking away from the keyboard last night instead of further engaging you and escalating the situation.

You are not the only one who has received comments behind the scenes. I will not engage you further. This type of exchange is not worth my time. You are not worth my time.


Kaitie... I am sorry for my part in getting this discussion so far off track from what you intended. My apologies.

Silver King
04-06-2010, 03:41 AM
I'm glad that argument is over. It was painful to read.

Despite some sore feelings, and a few low blows, we can all benefit one way or another from the information shared in this thread.

backslashbaby
04-06-2010, 03:49 AM
It's probably worth pointing out that estrogen is not considered the sole, or even main, cause of BC. It is very interesting what has been seen with estrogen, but let's not overstate what studies have shown.

I wouldn't overstate what studies have not disproven, either, but that's how I roll ;)

writerterri
04-06-2010, 04:06 AM
I used to go braless when I was perkier in my 20's and totally got away with it. I'm 43 29 now and cannot get away with it even if it's just taking my kids to school.

So, I feel it depends on age and size or length if you will. And also depends on the material you're going to wear. If it makes you look cheap and you don't mind then wear it. If you do mind, don't.

If it weren't already said there are aids that are sold in stores that can make you go braless and no one will know. Check them out. Victoria Secret, Walmart, etc.

~*Kate*~
04-06-2010, 07:03 AM
I'm a small person all around, with bra-optional sized breasts.

That's it-- I'm never calling myself flat again. I am adopting this instead and officially love you for posting it.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
04-06-2010, 03:49 PM
Aaaand here's a compromise. (http://www.inthemoodintimates.com/Fashion-Forms-Extreme-Silicone-Adhesive-Body-Bra-p/16121.htm)

regdog
04-06-2010, 03:52 PM
Aaaand here's a compromise. (http://www.inthemoodintimates.com/Fashion-Forms-Extreme-Silicone-Adhesive-Body-Bra-p/16121.htm)

I always wonder about peeling those adhesive bras offhttp://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/regdog/smiley-signs093.gif

Libbie
04-06-2010, 10:12 PM
That's it-- I'm never calling myself flat again. I am adopting this instead and officially love you for posting it.

HA!! Yeah, "bra-optional" is the perfect term.