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brainstorm77
04-04-2010, 11:48 AM
.

leahzero
04-04-2010, 01:17 PM
The good news is that your house isn't haunted.

The bad news is that if you feel uncomfortable there, and are having bizarre hallucinations like you described, then it's unlikely these feelings and sensations will go away on their own.

Do what you need to do to give yourself peace of mind.

Bartholomew
04-04-2010, 01:58 PM
Well, ok then.

Sounded like an interesting thread, though.

Libbie
04-04-2010, 05:56 PM
Ghosts aren't real, but I can tell you about all kinds of interesting normal psychological phenomena that are, and that make us think we are experiencing ghosts.

Ambrosia
04-04-2010, 07:59 PM
Ghosts aren't real, but I can tell you about all kinds of interesting normal psychological phenomena that are, and that make us think we are experiencing ghosts.

Can you prove ghosts are not real? I think not. It seems impossible to prove, in my opinion.



I hope you are ok, Brainstorm. :Hug2:

kct webber
04-04-2010, 09:23 PM
Can you prove ghosts are not real? I think not. It seems impossible to prove, in my opinion.

For one, you can't prove a negative, so no, she can't. However, the onus of proof is on the believer, not on the one who doesn't believe. If someone wants me to believe in ghosts, it is up to him to present convincing evidence, not up to me--or Libby, or anyone else--to justify his lack of it. If you told me that dogs regularly dematerialize when they're alone and unobserved, I will not believe you, but I can't prove you wrong. Lucky for me, I have no obligation to prove you wrong. I can demand, however, that you prove what you wish me to believe. [/dickishness]


I hope you are ok, Brainstorm. :Hug2:

Me too. Hope all is well. :)

Ambrosia
04-04-2010, 09:41 PM
For one, you can't prove a negative, so no, she can't. However, the onus of proof is on the believer, not on the one who doesn't believe. If someone wants me to believe in ghosts, it is up to him to present convincing evidence, not up to me--or Libby, or anyone else--to justify his lack of it. If you told me that dogs regularly dematerialize when they're alone and unobserved, I will not believe you, but I can't prove you wrong. Lucky for me, I have no obligation to prove you wrong. I can demand, however, that you prove what you wish me to believe. [/dickishness]



Me too. Hope all is well. :)

I frankly don't believe with current technology that it is possible to prove or disprove the existence of anything supernatural, including God. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And, I have no vested interest in proving the existence, or nonexistence, of ghosts to you or anyone else. I think it ludicrous, however, to make an absolute statement that ghosts do not exist, since it is not possible to prove so. Many sightings can be explained by other phenomenon as well as psychological causes, but not all. It is those that can not be explained that leaves me going "hmmmm".

Shakesbear
04-04-2010, 10:02 PM
Could someone please say what they mean by 'ghost'? The spirit of a dead person who has come back to haunt the living? The residual 'spirit' of someone who once lived in the area that they have been seen in? Are they they same? If not, how are they different? If you want someone to prove the existence of something they surely you need to ensure you are talking about the same thing? I ask because a long time ago I saw something that I could not explain - when I shared my experience I was told that I had seen a ghost - only I did not then, and do not now, believe in ghosts. So it was a bugger when I saw the 'thing' again.

kct webber
04-04-2010, 10:47 PM
Until someone can complete this chart with regard to ghosts, I am pretty comfortable saying, at the very least, that ghosts probably don't exist. But then, I feel the same way about god, so... Yeah. And, just a bit of pedantry, the word supernatural is, by its very definition, not real. It's definition is above or beyond nature. Nothing exists which is above, outside, or beyond nature.

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/kct77/scientific_method.jpg

kct webber
04-04-2010, 11:02 PM
And as for Shakesbear's question...? I would just invoke Occam's Razor: The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. Given a bunch of possibilities, choose the simplest one.

For example, if there was rain, bright headlights, and a prom going on down town, you don't need to add in aliens, ghosts, or the rapture to explain why you saw a flowing, angelic form floating down the street toward you.

regdog
04-04-2010, 11:18 PM
Could someone please say what they mean by 'ghost'? The spirit of a dead person who has come back to haunt the living? The residual 'spirit' of someone who once lived in the area that they have been seen in? Are they they same? If not, how are they different? If you want someone to prove the existence of something they surely you need to ensure you are talking about the same thing? I ask because a long time ago I saw something that I could not explain - when I shared my experience I was told that I had seen a ghost - only I did not then, and do not now, believe in ghosts. So it was a bugger when I saw the 'thing' again.

For the most part the use of ghost or spirit of the dead can be used the same way. The belief is a person either doesn't know they have died or wasn't ready to go and their spirit remains. I don't know whether spirits deliberately haunt certain people but I do think some who have passed on are not at peace and lash out. It can be frightening to those who are in the area of such happenings. Those are usually what "hauntings" are referred to.

I've seen too many unexplained things to say ghosts or spirits don't exist.

For those who don't believe there is little anyone could say to convince them otherwise, just as those who do believe won't change their mind.

Libbie
04-04-2010, 11:32 PM
Can you prove ghosts are not real? I think not. It seems impossible to prove, in my opinion.



I hope you are ok, Brainstorm. :Hug2:

You're right; it's impossible to "prove" that ghosts are not real. fortunately, the onus of proof is on the person making the claim, and not the person who chooses not to believe in the claim. Therefore, people who claim ghosts are real need to present evidence for them. Some have, but so far all the evidence they have presented has been shown to be hoaxes or misunderstanding of situations that can be explained by natural processes rather than supernatural processes.

Nobody can prove that invisible leprechauns DON'T live under your bed, either. Doesn't mean anybody, including you, is justified in believing they DO live under your bed. Unless you have proof that is sound and testable.

Libbie
04-04-2010, 11:36 PM
I think it ludicrous, however, to make an absolute statement that ghosts do not exist, since it is not possible to prove so.

You also think it's ludicrous, then, to make the statement that immaterial pink unicorns do not exist. It is impossible to prove so, after all.



Many sightings can be explained by other phenomenon as well as psychological causes, but not all. It is those that can not be explained that leaves me going "hmmmm".

It's those that you personally do not understand, and for which you personally do not have a plausible explanation, that leave you going "hmm." Just because you are incapable of understanding the natural processes at work that make the "proof" thus far presented weak doesn't mean everybody has a similar problem.

For those who are interested, search the terms "pareidolia," "hypnagogic hallucinations," "hypnopompia," and "sleep paralysis." All very fascinating natural phenomena that might even give you all some cool ideas for books or stories. :D

Ambrosia
04-04-2010, 11:53 PM
Just because you are incapable of understanding the natural processes at work that make the "proof" thus far presented weak doesn't mean everybody has a similar problem.

Incapable? Seriously now. I am far from being incapable of understanding anything. In my opinion, you are being as rabidly evangelical in your scientific premises as any fanatic religious group is in theirs. And that is indeed ludicrous.

Science doesn't know everything. It is discovering new territory every day. At some point in the future I believe it will come up with ways to measure such phenomena as ghostly sightings and hopefully come up with an accurate explanation of such occurrences. Until that day, we all remain in the dark.

underthecity
04-05-2010, 12:00 AM
To answer the question, which is apparently simply "Would you move?" followed by a little hyphen, the answer is "no." I have no reason to move.

Glad someone asked.

Adam
04-05-2010, 01:11 AM
If I was unsettled in my house for whatever reason, so much so that it led to vastly increased stress and sleepless nights, I'd look into moving or doing something else to alleviate the issue (though I don't know what that would be in this case).

Shakesbear
04-05-2010, 01:24 AM
And as for Shakesbear's question...? I would just invoke Occam's Razor: The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. Given a bunch of possibilities, choose the simplest one.

For example, if there was rain, bright headlights, and a prom going on down town, you don't need to add in aliens, ghosts, or the rapture to explain why you saw a flowing, angelic form floating down the street toward you.

I think you are making assumptions - you have no way of knowing what I saw and experienced. It certainly was not an angelic form - I would be much happier if it had been.

Thanks for this regdog

For the most part the use of ghost or spirit of the dead can be used the same way. The belief is a person either doesn't know they have died or wasn't ready to go and their spirit remains. I don't know whether spirits deliberately haunt certain people but I do think some who have passed on are not at peace and lash out. It can be frightening to those who are in the area of such happenings. Those are usually what "hauntings" are referred to.

I've seen too many unexplained things to say ghosts or spirits don't exist.

For those who don't believe there is little anyone could say to convince them otherwise, just as those who do believe won't change their mind.

It helps. A lot. I was not frightened by what I saw - at least at the time. It was after when I thought about it and realized it challenged so many things I thought I believed in. I think that is why ghosts scare some people - they challenge dearly held beliefs. There are, after all, more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in most philosophies!

aadams73
04-05-2010, 02:04 AM
Nobody can prove that invisible leprechauns DON'T live under your bed, either. Doesn't mean anybody, including you, is justified in believing they DO live under your bed. Unless you have proof that is sound and testable.

But I do have invisible leprechauns living under my bed. Everybody does. That's why we all wake up with messy hair!

I'm trying to teach mine to fetch coffee but, alas, no luck thus far.

aadams73
04-05-2010, 02:13 AM
If I was unsettled in my house for whatever reason, so much so that it led to vastly increased stress and sleepless nights, I'd look into moving or doing something else to alleviate the issue (though I don't know what that would be in this case).

How about an exorcist?

Libbie
04-05-2010, 04:37 AM
Incapable? Seriously now. I am far from being incapable of understanding anything.

Okay, "incapable" was a poor choice of words. You are certainly technically CAPABLE of understanding anything, just as most people are. By incapable I meant you haven't yet been educated enough, or received enough experience with the scientific method, to know that it is reliable. I mean no offense, but I can certainly see how offense was taken. My apologies.



In my opinion, you are being as rabidly evangelical in your scientific premises as any fanatic religious group is in theirs. And that is indeed ludicrous.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, the scientific method is the best and most reliable way we have of obtaining facts. Facts, not fancies. Not guesses. Facts.



Science doesn't know everything. It is discovering new territory every day.

That is indeed true, and that's the great strength of science, and what nonscientific worldviews lack. The constant change and discovery and reinvention of itself is what makes the scientific method so trustworthy. And any worldview or way of approaching a problem that lacks that built-in self-correction is one I do not trust. You are welcome to trust it as you see fit.


At some point in the future I believe it will come up with ways to measure such phenomena as ghostly sightings and hopefully come up with an accurate explanation of such occurrences. Until that day, we all remain in the dark.

We are not in the dark. According to current scientific methods, we have apt explanations for every known ghostly sighting or encounter. The people who really WANT to believe that ghosts are "supernatural" phenomena may choose not to accept these facts, but that doesn't change the fact that they are indeed facts, and will continue to remain facts unless stronger evidence, obtained via the scientific method, is found to disprove or change them.

Personally, I find people's insistent belief in ghosts fascinating enough that I'm planning a book about it. It's a source of constant amazement to me, how an organ in our own bodies can trick us into believing something is there when it is not in fact there. And it's fascinating to me how much these tricky neurological phenomena mean to some folks. The whole thing is engrossing.

You're welcome to your beliefs about ghosts, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I'll interview you for my book one day. But I'm not going to let a patently absurd statement like "You have to believe in ghosts because you can't prove they DON'T exist" go unchallenged. And that was, in essence, what you were saying to me.

Ambrosia
04-05-2010, 04:48 AM
By incapable I meant you haven't yet been educated enough, or received enough experience with the scientific method, to know that it is reliable.

I guess I am some back water hick that never got past 3rd grade. I do suppose all those college classes I took, and all the reading I have done over the years, was a dream.

I can not believe how condescending you are being to me. You do not know me. You do not know anything about me. I do not believe we have even had a post in the same thread before today. I am assuming you are a writer since you are in a writer's forum. You have to know how to put sentences together to say what you intend to say. You apologize for a poor choice of words then turn immediately around and slam me again. WTF?

Libbie
04-05-2010, 04:59 AM
Well, you do think the scientific method can't be trusted at all, so I believe I am justified in assuming all the schooling you did in college was probably not heavily science-focused. In my experience, people who don't get a lot of education in science really do not understand it, and tend not to trust it. You can do all the English or business learning a brain can hold, and I will be impressed by your schooling and will honor you for it. But that doesn't mean you understand how science works.

I'm done talking to you. I've come to realize in my time spent trying to counter the spread of misinformation that people who think like you can't be placated and in any case have no real interest in learning about the natural world. Keep believing in pseudoscience if it makes you happy. It's totally fine with me. Really.

Silver King
04-05-2010, 05:05 AM
Libbie, please tone down the rhetoric in this discussion, in particular the barely concealed contempt you are showing toward other members.

Discuss the topic, only, and refrain from belittling others who may not agree with you.

larocca
04-05-2010, 05:06 AM
If I lived near Mama's Family, I'd move.

bettielee
04-05-2010, 08:02 AM
I'm really trying hard to phrase this in a way that doesn't get me put in the time out box, but I have to respond because this topic is sort of a big deal for me. This is all I can come up with.

I would beware of absolutes when you're talking about correcting the spread of misinformation.

And since we can't prove God is real, either, should we send out a memo?

and technically: one horned goats ARE unicorns. :)
**runs way**

lucidzfl
04-05-2010, 10:21 PM
Inability to prove the nonexistence of god is the only reason religion is still around.

aadams73
04-05-2010, 10:22 PM
Ghosts are too real! How else do you explain Casper?

Well?

backslashbaby
04-06-2010, 03:42 AM
I don't give two flying f*cks if people want to apply the scientific method to everything. There is enough in the history of physics alone to not put all of one's faith in one sort of method, imho. Don't believe in anything supernatural; suits me fine. Your grandad would have laughed at Einstein, too. I'm not much of an absolutist with things with such a recently tainted track record.

I would never move because of the sorts of things I bet were described. I've had a lot of anecdotal experience with that sort of think and can give you some folk advice, if you like. Please PM me :) Mostly, don't be afraid. The bark is worse than the bite. Good luck :)

writerterri
04-06-2010, 04:32 AM
For some reason i'm a ghost magnet. I feel some don't believe because they've never noticed when one has come into contact with them or some people are just more sensitive to them. I'm sure the subject is arguable. i just don't feel like arguing. But I will say that just the other day I kept having a creepy feeling when I walked by a door at a house where I house keep at and finally I had to go in and clean. I set a coaster on a table where i thought it looked best and left the room to go get something and when I got back the coaster was turned upside down (the cork side up). Now, I admired the black marble coaster from a distance thinking it looked best there. How it was cork side up when I got back was beyond me. I sort of had a feeling it was a spirit letting me know it was in the room with me. Later when I passed by the room, this time the door was open, I saw a shadow pass quickly by the door and it blocked out light coming from the room and cast a shadow onto the floor. Then I knew.

Now, I never engage with a spirit when i sense one in the room or I happen to see it or it begins to play games with me. I just go about my work and ignore it and it usually goes away and leaves me alone. i recommend this as a way of dealing with spirits best. They get bored with you and usually leave.

If it persists I will rebuke the spirit in the name of Jesus Christ and then it leaves me alone. If that doesn't work, then i'll pray out loud in the name of Jesus Christ. And if that doesn't work I will ask for prayer from a lot of different people which always works.

And now there's cracks and pops and whispering going on behind me as I type because I'm talking about them, which happens to me a lot too. They are all around us all the time. if you don't want them to engage with you don't invite them in but if they happen to invite themselves in you can kick them out. Be strong and firm! If you don't mind them being there and they don't bother you, ignore them and it's possible they will just move on. If it's worse than that there are professionals that can and are willing to help. If you just pick up and move then they win.

Angie
04-06-2010, 04:35 AM
But I do have invisible leprechauns living under my bed. Everybody does. That's why we all wake up with messy hair!


That's why my hair is messed up every morning?? Bastards. *buys a cat*

backslashbaby
04-06-2010, 04:44 AM
I don't get scared by things like the coaster one. That is really relatively normal in my experience. Eh, they (or whatever it is) like to say hi? No problem.

Some things get scary, but it still seems like attention is the thing. Just try to ignore it. It's not going to hurt anything.

Hallucinations? Other people can see/hear the things I see/hear, so no. Sorry :D

People get so scared, though, and I feel strongly that it's nothing to be afraid of.

writerterri
04-06-2010, 06:52 AM
I don't get scared by things like the coaster one. That is really relatively normal in my experience. Eh, they (or whatever it is) like to say hi? No problem.

Some things get scary, but it still seems like attention is the thing. Just try to ignore it. It's not going to hurt anything.

Hallucinations? Other people can see/hear the things I see/hear, so no. Sorry :D

People get so scared, though, and I feel strongly that it's nothing to be afraid of.

I chose not to let the coaster thing scare me either. It was basically harmless and the spirit was probably just saying "hi or I'm here". I've been having experiences since I was 12 with spirits and so far none of them have hurt me. But I have known of spirits that actually hurt people. And you're right, giving them attention will stir them. Usually they are looking for a place to dwell alone and scarring people is usually how they get you out.

So far I've had things moved and put back.
Pillows thrown at me from across the room.
I've been knocked over to my back in the middle of the night by them.
Have light fixtures come unscrewed and fall to the floor.
TV's turn off and on.
My hair pulled.
Cat boxes dumped over.
Wake up to growling in my room.
Wake up to a white face staring me in my face.
Woke up to a white sheet of vapor hovering over me.
Have walked into my bathroom in two different places and have felt someone standing behind the door and then it opens all the way.
I've been knocked on the head.
I have felt like I've been poked with a pin.
Piles of random things place in the middle of the floor and toilet paper moved back on a shelf after i've put it away.

The growling scared me.

backslashbaby
04-06-2010, 07:09 AM
Oooh, yeah, that would be scary! The face would have been awful.

Granted, it can be very hard to not be scared, lol. But don't be scared. I have been terrified before, but since I learned the 'not afraid' trick, "everybody" seems really pleasant, actually. It took a while, but there ya go :)

PS - I don't know that they are the same 'ones', btw. I don't think so. But I don't claim to understand what they are, so it's just intuition, literally the way 'they' feel.