Sexual harassment in the workplace-opinions?

Carole · Aug 18, 2005

What would be the straw that broke the camel's back in regard to sexual harassment in the workplace? What would be the deciding factor to make you go to management to report the offender? What if the offender *was* management?

I would like to hear some opinions on this topic. It seems that even though most women would say they would never tolerate it, a lot of them do. (not excluding men, but I am not working in that direction really)

I have had it happen to me in different ways, subtle and not-so-subtle, and I believe a lot of women have as well. Do you think there is a generation gap of sorts in regard to the mindset about sexual harassment? I remember telling my mother about a weird situation at my job a long time ago...how the manager used to say very off-color things, come up behind and give creepy backrubs...touch my hair...lots of things. She shocked me when she said, "Oh, honey, if I had a nickel for every time some man pinched my butt at work or said something out of line, I'd be a wealthy woman"

Do you think women should be responsible for changing their attitude and appearance at work to make themselves less attractive to a creep? I'm not defending a girl who would go to work in a super short miniskirt and no underwear with a low cut blouse and no bra. That's just plain irresponsible. But what about someone who goes to work in jeans, boots and a t-shirt? Should she deliberately make herself unattractive however she can? Should she become hateful and nasty to ensure no creeps would take her naturally friendly disposition the wrong way?

I would also be interested in the opinions of men on this subject, even though my focus is women.

D.J. · Aug 18, 2005

I talked too much. LOL! Just suffice it to say...yes, it's happened far too much.

loquax · Aug 18, 2005

Even though I am a male, and therefore an utter bastard, I would think that simply "hitting on" someone in the workplace would not count as harassment. Perhaps the working environment strikes out all possibilities of romance. But from what I can tell, if a guy hits on a gal and she's up for it, she wouldn't report it to management. If she's not, well then "courting" becomes "harassment". Unfair, sure, but as I said, we're all bastards and probably deserve it anyway.

D.J. · Aug 18, 2005

loquax said:
Even though I am a male, and therefore an utter bastard, I would think that simply "hitting on" someone in the workplace would not count as harassment. Perhaps the working environment strikes out all possibilities of romance. But from what I can tell, if a guy hits on a gal and she's up for it, she wouldn't report it to management. If she's not, well then "courting" becomes "harassment". Unfair, sure, but as I said, we're all bastards and probably deserve it anyway.

I think if people are single, then work could be a good place to meet someone, but when people give unwanted advances and continue even after they are told not to, then it constitutes harrassment. In my case not reporting it was the way I chose to deal with it. Not because I was interested, but because I wanted to work.
Several of my experiences were more than just being hit on. I was taken off guard and shocked by physical contact. Especially when it came from bosses and married men.
Certain jobs can be a small society of sorts that word travels fast in. Especially in a male dominated profession, females can have a hard time. It is a fine line that is hard to explain.
All men aren't jerks. Because I had such high expectations for men is why certain behavior shocked me so.
I hope my long, rambling post that I have now removed didn't offend you. I was simply relaying a few of the situations I found myself in. I also know women hit on men too. Sometimes in a very innappropriate manner. I've witnessed several circumstances this way as well.

Unique · Aug 18, 2005

Lo,

Workplace or not - if a man asks and the woman says, 'NO' and the man keeps on asking, insisting, intimidating, etc. and the woman still says, 'No' - it's harrassment. Swap the genders and it's still harrassment.

Yeah, Carole, it's happened to me. I was in the military (which is a lot like indentured servitude in that you can't get away). It was so awful, I still have a hard time talking about it 18 years after the fact.

Email me through my profile if you'd like to hear the skinny. (Sorry ya'll - it's ugly.)

After X-hundreds of posts, I think you can tell that I'm not the meek, mild, easily shocked kind of chick. I'm not now, I wasn't then either. But the 'indentured servitude' of a military situation makes it doubly damned because you can't get away.

dblteam · Aug 18, 2005

It's amazing how different work environments can be. I'm an engineer in a large aerospace firm and I have *never* had any coworker say or do something inappropriate. (Well, there was one man who made a slightly off-color comment, but he was in procurement, and it was after hours, and I think he'd had too much to drink.)

I don't think it really has all that much to do with being a "male dominated" career. The aerospace industry (and a lot of engineering in general) is male dominated--in my area there are at most 1 or 2 women engineers for every 100 male engineers. I'm usually the only woman in the room, but the only noticeable effect is that all the men remember my name the first time around. So I don't think that's it.

I think it boils down to how the employees are viewed by the company--whether they're seen as valuable assets that are treated with respect, or interchangeable keyboard-monkeys who can't spell their own names without proper micromanagement. The atmosphere the company fosters will influence the way employees treat whoever is under them (at whatever level). And when one is male and the other female, the atmosphere of disrepect can easily include sexual connotations, which in turn becomes sexual harrassment.

Valerie

Tish Davidson · Aug 18, 2005

Everyone deserves a workplace free on harrassment based on gender, sexual orientation, race/ethnicity and religion. Unfortuantely, what is "conversation" and "expressing interest" to one person is unwanted attention and harrassment to another. To me the line comes when the action/words are repeated after the recipient of the unwanted attention has made it clear that the action/words are unacceptable to them.

Unfortunately, many people find it hard to express that they are uncomfortable with the actions of another at work. Although the offending person should, in an ideal world, know that what they are doing is unacceptable, they often don't, especially when the communication is across generations. It is the responsibility of the offender to make it clear that the words/action should stop. Then if they don't, the action crosses the line to harrassment, whether it is based on gender, race, sexual orientation, or religion.

Based on the experience of friends, one of whom is a (female) union shop steward who deals with this fairly often, incidents of harrassment/prejudicial behavior get reported most often when the recipient of the unwanted attention has another gripe with the person in addition to the harrassment (e.g. They didn't get the raise they thought they should; the other person isn't pulling their weight at work, leaves early, comes in late, etc.) or when they have been receptive to the attention and then the relationship goes bad.

I'm not saying that this is when things SHOULD be reported, just that often the motivation for reporting harrassment is complex and goes beyond the immediate harrassment. Also, people being inconsistent, one person may say or do something that is okay because you like him/her and have a good relationship/are about the same age and have the same cultural background, and another person can say/do essentially the same thing and it is not acceptable because you do not like him/her or have a different or more distant relationship/do not share the same cultural background. And whenver there is any hint of coercion because one person is in a position of power over the other, the line is crossed. All of which is to say that the situation is often murky and open to individual interpretation that changes as relationships change.

Think about how the N word seems to be okay for many young African-Americans to use when speaking to each other, but how it is racially discriminatory if used by a white person and emotionally loaded to many older African-Americans regardless of who uses the word. The issue is context, which is what makes it so difficult to make rules about what is harrassment and what is communication.

Fern · Aug 18, 2005

As with everything, people should use some common sense when dealing with this issue.

To me, it is sexual harrassment when the offender is in management and uses his/her position to reward an employee for "being nice" to them. If their advances are met with NO, using their position to make life on the job miserable for the employee would be another instance.

Some folks, men or women, use rough language and don't think anything about it. I've been around people on the job and even acquaintances whom I hate being around because they just talk filthy. .. using the "f" word in every sentence and anything else that comes to mind. While it is offensive to me, I've never thought of it as sexual harrassment because its simply the way they express themselves "all the time".

Some people pull out the sexual harrassment accusations when they want to "get back" at someone.

Writer2011 · Aug 18, 2005

I keep the conversations general and nothing else.

Perks · Aug 18, 2005

I have encountered a number of situations that would fall under this heading. There was one case in particular that started with my boss saying some unbelievable (truly) things to me - out of the blue. It didn't upset me; I just thought the guy was nuts. I ignored it. Well, down the line, I found out that another girl nearly had a nervous breakdwn over these things and Human Resources was none to pleased with me that I had not spoken up earlier since my incidents predated the others. Hadn't thought about it in terms of how someone else might react under those circumstances.

It's pretty much "stick-and-stones" where I'm concerned. I don't get worked up over comments and I have a sense of humor that is pretty inclusive, so I'm hard to offend. However, beyond that, I bite. A vice president of a Fortune 500 company backed me up against a wall once and I nearly had his job for it. The grovelling was quite entertaining.

I really don't understand the pathology that it takes to pursue these impulses in our litigious society. It's just not worth it.

Writer2011 · Aug 18, 2005

In the places i've worked, it was predominantly women (which is fine) but like I said, I kept it on a professional level.

Carole · Aug 18, 2005

Perks said:
I found out that another girl nearly had a nervous breakdwn over these things and Human Resources was none to pleased with me that I had not spoken up earlier since my incidents predated the others. Hadn't thought about it in terms of how someone else might react under those circumstances.

That is a very similar situation to one I found myself in. Me- married. Him-married as well. Following me around constantly...touching (just EWW! You KNOW the difference between an innocent touch on the arm and someone wanting to *touch* you) No matter how many times I would say something about my husband, he would NOT get the hint and not leave me alone.

One day, my manager overheard him tell me that he wanted to clone me so that he could always have me on his shifts and she told me about her problems with him. I was encouraged by several of the women there to report him, and eventually I did. I am glad I did because I was the 6th girl he had been this way with and since he was management, he would always go pull the info out of his records so there would be no proof. I think he was eventually fired, but I am not sure. He was, or so I hear, much worse with others than with me, but my complaint helped remove him from that workplace. One girl did nearly have a breakdown over it all.

rtilryarms · Aug 18, 2005

Unique has it right. It becomes verbal sexual harrassment when you let it be known that you are not comfortatble with the advances.

Physical touching is never appropriate except in situations of sympathy, birthday hugs and the like.

The statistics lean heavily that one's superior is the most frequent offenders.

Statistics are also strong that males harrass way more often than females. Way more but there are an unusually high amount of women superiors harrassing underlings.

As a veteran corporate manager I take these courses constantly. It's a sad statement about our worklife that we can't just go to work just to work.

Thank goodness no one likes me at work. I don't have to deal with this stuff.

Unique · Aug 18, 2005

Bless you Mike, for being so wise. I wish I had worked for you.

Carole · Aug 18, 2005

rtilryarms said:
Unique has it right. It becomes verbal sexual harrassment when you let it be known that you are not comfortatble with the advances.

Physical touching is never appropriate except in situations of sympathy, birthday hugs and the like.

The statistics lean heavily that one's superior is the most frequent offenders.

Statistics are also strong that males harrass way more often than females. Way more but there are an unusually high amount of women superiors harrassing underlings.

As a veteran corporate manager I take these courses constantly. It's a sad statement about our worklife that we can't just go to work just to work.

Thank goodness no one likes me at work. I don't have to deal with this stuff.

I am also wondering what the statistics might be in regard to men who act "thisaway" with women in the workplace as opposed to how thier private lives are. Are they acting on some twisted idea of authority because they are floppy weenies in their off time? I know one guy in particular who would have peed his PANTS if my hubby...or any of our husbands had confronted him, although he never had any qualms about pushing himself on the women at work.

Writer2011 · Aug 18, 2005

I would have to agree that touching is simply wrong, and so is sexual harassment. You just don't do those things to a woman..period.

loquax · Aug 19, 2005

I'll second that. Girls have cooties.

D.J - you didn't have to edit your post! I'm just telling the truth. Men are the ones who start the wars and knife people on the streets - the ones who leave their wives and beat their kids. And I'm pretty sure Bonnie only did what Clyde wanted her to do because she loved him.

Carole · Aug 19, 2005

loquax said:
I'll second that. Girls have cooties.

loquax said:
Men are the ones who start the wars and knife people on the streets - the ones who leave their wives and beat their kids. And I'm pretty sure Bonnie only did what Clyde wanted her to do because she loved him.

There are so many arguments about men and women being "just the same", but I have to say that I think that is silly! Men and women are different...their brains are wired differently. They react to situations differently.

It's so sad that some men expect a woman to handle a situation the way they would and think they are wrong when they don't!

errr, off my soapbox now.

D.J. · Aug 19, 2005

loquax said:
I'll second that. Girls have cooties.

LOL!

loquax said:
D.J - you didn't have to edit your post! I'm just telling the truth. Men are the ones who start the wars and knife people on the streets - the ones who leave their wives and beat their kids. And I'm pretty sure Bonnie only did what Clyde wanted her to do because she loved him.

Oh, I honestly thought, why did I give so much specific info? I think I was addressing some inner feelings that this question must have tapped! I think I had so many incidents that were rather serious ones.

Someone mentioned it not being a male dominated profession that created this and perhaps that was a fair statement. It is just that in the type of profession I was in, it was a mentality of the "good 'ol boys." At the same time I have always had lots of guy friends and usually get along better with men than women. I enjoy the male personality and have been told I possess it too. My husband loves that.

I'm not the type to get easily offended, but I have character. I am usually very quick witted and have the confidence to reply with what I feel. However, in many of the situations I have encountered it took me totally off guard and it was in the workplace setting, which complicated things. I have had many women think I was being harrassed when I did not. The times I feel it was true harrassment were when it was with someone who would not stop after lots of requests. Also my being physically grabbed and kissed me without my consent. Several times they then used their authority to try to get revenge on me for not playing. These were not just passing comments, inappropriate jokes, or flirting.

I think Carole said she didn't know what the man who had harrassed her would have done if her husband confronted him. Did you tell your husband about it? Just curious as to whether women tell their significant others.
If they do, what happens? If they don't, why not?

Thanks for being so kind as to comment on my taking down my post, Loquax. I just didn't want to come across in my posts to be a man hater. LOL!

sassandgroove · Aug 19, 2005

A couple times it has been said that what one person called harrassment another did not. I think that is very important. we live in a strange time, where we are so worried about being offended in some way that we then find reasons to be offended. I like the definition that harrassment is after it has been made clear that the advance is not welcome. I think people get overly hyper about stuff like nicknames. I had a boss once who was calling me Jenny (of course this isn't harrassment but I have a point...) To me Jenny is a name only family and VERY close friends use. I asked him a few times to call me Jennifer. It didn't work. A friend of his told me to call him Jeffy. Now this man could have fired me...But he intercommed me one day and said "Hey Jenny!" and I gathered up my courage and responded "Yes Jeffy" and he never called me Jenny again. Now where was my point I saw it laying around here somewhere. Oh, yeah. I confronted him. If it hadn't work being that it was a version of my name I might have let it go, but if it was stuff that was more inappropriate the next thing to do would be to say "I've asked you not to call me that, do I need to go to your boss?" People don't have back bones. They complain to everyone but the one who needs to hear the complaint. Then it gorws out of proportion.

Also, People now are indoctrinated with all this women are just like men BS and then women get insulted if a man compliments her for looking nice. Hey, I like to be told I am pretty. There is an older man in my office who often tells me I look nice, and when I help him with the computer he tells me how lucky my husband is to have such a nice wife. I glow from this, I don't immediately imagine he has ulterior motives, he is happily married for 40 years! He is just being nice. ANd I think highly enough of myself to take it that way.

Richard White · Aug 19, 2005

On the opposite side of the fence, as a male instructor in the military, we were taught never counsel a female student without another instructor there, preferably a female instructor.

We had more than one instructor get seriously jacked up because a female trainee was getting booted from class for one reason or another and she'd file an EO complaint against him.

While 9/10ths of the investigations cleared the instructor, it still required yanking him off of the podium, assigning him crappy details away from the company (to minimize his access to female trainees), assigning an officer to investigate and then interviewing everyone in his class, his fellow instructors, other people who knew him to see if they could establish a "pattern of misbehavior".

I had one fellow instructor get passed over for E-7 because he was being investigated; they decided he wasn't guilty, after the promotion cycle was over, and he had to wait another year before getting promoted because some kid getting kicked out of the Army decided to take her instructor with her.

Most of the time it devolved into a he said/she said situation. However, the command's philosophy was "Why would a trainee lie about something like this? Plus, you're an NCO, you should never have gotten into that situation to begin with."

Now, I don't mean to belittle sexual harrassment, because it is heinous and anyone practicing it should be hung out to dry. However, in my experiences, it's a "guilty until proven innocent" situation for the person being charged with it.

loquax · Aug 19, 2005

My art teacher called everyone sweetheart. We were a class of sixteen year old boys. She was a married woman.

No one cared.

But if the sexes were swapped.... well I expect the teacher would be fired and probably kept under police observation on account of suspected paedophilia.

My closing point is that life's not fair.

inexperiencedinker · Aug 19, 2005

I have very mixed feelings on this. I was in the military too, and they take harassment very seriously. (i was recently telling this story so I find it funny that this topic is here). When I was in basic training there was another private who I did not get along with. I could go on and on and on about his obnoxious and horrible personality traits, but I won't. The main problem was that he was a screw-up, and in basic training, when one gets punished, we all do. Everyday I had to do push-ups because of this one guy, and let me tell you I HATE push-ups. About halfway through basic training, he started screwing off while we were marching in formation. It was through a tight corridor, so the drill sergeant was in the front of the formation, and he and I were marching in the back. He started skipping, whistling, and in general doing whatever he could to get us all in trouble. Me and this private had words before on many occasions (I basically bawled him out every day) and I just snapped. He was one row in front of me, so I took one giant step forward to the left of him, bent down, and shoved him off the ground with my shoulder, plowing him into the wall. (some said I didn't even get out of step with the march, which I think is funny!) The platoon kept marching, and finally halted in our platoon area. We were all formed up when this private came running up and screaming that I had shoved him, tripped him, whatever. The drill sergeant laughed, "Are you saying a girl beat you up, private?" The private turned red and shook his head, retreating to the back of the formation.

Two weeks later I came to the bay, which is a huge room with bunks (it would make sense if you had gone to BCT in Ft. Sill) and announced my presence, "Female on the floor!" All the males in my platoon were doing flutter kicks on the floor, which after just ten minutes can become the most excruciating torture on the face of the earth. They are possibly worse than push-ups. It was strange; normally the females would be called down to do the punishment with the rest of the platoon when they were in trouble. The drill sergeant started pushing me out the door, screaming, cussing at me. He told me to stand in the hall and not move. He went back and continued drilling the male privates.

Eventually I found out that this private and his buddy had written a cadence about me. My last name is Hix, so I shouldn't have to explain how many wonderful words could be used in rhyme. They gave him an article 15 (three and you can get kicked out of the army, go on permanent record, that kind of thing) for sexual harassment.

How odd that he wrote a lyric with a few bad words and got busted on, but I put my hands on him, and he got made fun of. I’m not complaining, he was a jerk and I maintain to this day that some people just need walloped to understand they are wrong, but it still seemed like a double standard.
And theres my LONG story, sorry! lol. From my military experience and my current job I have a million stories about harassment, and it's perceptions. The government is BIG on busting people for the smallest thing. PM me if you want other anecdotes.

Carole · Aug 19, 2005

D.J. said:
I have always had lots of guy friends and usually get along better with men than women. I enjoy the male personality and have been told I possess it too. My husband loves that.

I have always been a lot more comfortable around men as well. I have little patience for how catty some girls can be. That sounds SO wierd, I know. It's the whole competitive thing that I can't abide. With guys, there is none of that. I can sit in the living room with my husband and several of his friends...have a beer and laugh right along with them, not wondering which one of them will be whispering the other how fat I looked in whatever I was wearing or how I need to have my roots done.

I think Carole said she didn't know what the man who had harrassed her would have done if her husband confronted him. Did you tell your husband about it? Just curious as to whether women tell their significant others.
If they do, what happens? If they don't, why not?

Each time this has happened since I have been with my husband, I have told him. The unfortunate thing is that he does construction work out of town throughout the week and is only home on the weekends and has had that type of job for years.

The first time this type of thing happened since I have been with my husband, he was able to confront him. He came into town the next day and confronted the guy, who happened to be my boss. He (my boss) snorted a line of cocaine in his kitchen the night before and started taking off his clothing (EEEW) and really getting creepy. I was at his house in the first place because he spent too much time at the bar next door during the day to drive himself home after work. I drove him home and had to unlock the door to let him in. I went in to make sure he was ok and planned to leave as soon as he had a cup of coffee in his hand and was settled into his chair. But he did the cocaine in the kitchen instead, and then pinned me in the corner. Hubby and I were good friends with him up to that point, but afterward it was really ugly. My husband, then boyfriend, simply told him that he was aware of what happened and gave him the opportunity to defend himself. All very civil-like. My boss then started bawling like a baby and said that he didn't remember any of it. Later, he flatly denied all of it. I ended up leaving that job within the month.

The next time, my husband didn't have the opportunity to do or say anything. He was, as usual, out of town and I left that job before he came back. We moved shortly afterward, so we both kinda forgot about it.

The last time...well, again he was out of town. The union took care of him before my husband had to become involved, even though he was SO wanting to.

Since my husband is in a relatively helpless situation as far as not being here when somehting like that happens, I have tried to keep it from him as long as I could. I hate giving him reason to worry when he is gone.

The FIRST time this happened, though, I was only 15 and the creep was one of my teachers. My dad stayed home from work and went to the school the next morning. The pincipal and one of the coaches had to pull him off the jerk.

From these experiences, I can say that I have tried to handle situations myself but I have also had every man in my life feel almost betrayed when they found out it was going on without their knowledge.

katiemac · Aug 19, 2005

I think age difference can be a big factor in these cases, too. I'm going to be a sophomore in college this fall, and until last summer I worked at an average teenager part-time job for two years. Everyone else who worked there was between the ages of 16-22, except for the manager. We could all joke around with each other about certain topics, and nothing was ever uncomfortable. We were all friends.

However, the manager (who must have been late forties, at least) was creepy at times. He had some very inappropriate comments now and then to me and another girl who worked there, but they were few and far between. Some of the guys who worked with me would tell me that when I wasn't around, the manager talked about me. They laughed when they told the stories, but I knew every single one of them would step in (not afraid to throw a few punches, either) if they thought something deeper was going on.

Anyway, the situation pretty much mellowed itself out because the manager left about five or six months after being hired, so I never saw him again.

See, thing is, I still work in retail situations now. And half of the time it's not coworkers -- it's the customers. I've received some very odd and creepy comments from older men (sometimes upwards of sixty), but the funny thing is they're always sitting right there with their wives, and they both laugh it off. Customer's always right, right?

Just this evening I was working in a restaurant, taking surveys (not even my regular gig, I was filling in for someone) and was hit on about five times. One, admittedly, was extremely polite and executed through his wingman, so it was no big deal. But one man said outright, "Give me a hug and I'll fill out that survey and anything else you want." Again, at least late forties, and his wife was right there across from him at the table! She thought it was funny.

With customers, you only talk to them for about ten minutes throughout your day, so what else do you do except let it go? Since I don't actually work at the restaurant, it's a site-by-site job, there's no one you can talk to regarding their staff or their customers.

Sexual harassment in the workplace-opinions?

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