WHO SPEAKS LATIN or ITALIAN

Italian: La societa' del sacrificio
Latin: Congressus sacrificii

Be careful how you use it, congressus will decline depending on the case...
Also, depending on what you mean, consortium may be more appropriate...

in Latin
congregatio de sacrificio

This might serve, but there are dozens of words that mean sacrifice. There are also several words for society. I think that congregatio may work, but sodalicium might be better.

OneWriter said:

Italian: La societa' del sacrificio
Latin: Congressus sacrificii

Be careful how you use it, congressus will decline depending on the case...
Also, depending on what you mean, consortium may be more appropriate...

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I think you meant sacrificio (dative) rather than sacrificii (genitive).

I wouldn't have used "de" and used genitive instead (the original form of Latin did not have prepositions, save the ones used for motion, if I remember correctly), I may be rusty on my Latin though. Why would you use dative?

ETA: Oh, I see... you are using it in the sense of "about"... Like "de amicitiae"... I get it now.
Here's a popular use of congregatio though: congregatio fidelium which I believe is genitive plural...
Maybe I'm wrong, but my intuition would go for a genitive, just because that's how we do it in Italian.

OneWriter said:

I wouldn't have used "de" and used genitive instead (the original form of Latin did not have prepositions, save the ones used for motion, if I remember correctly), I may be rusty on my Latin though. Why would you use dative?

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Dropping the preposition is fine; it is optional in uses like that. It is not personal to anyone or anything, so the dative is correct. Genitive is for things that are truly of a person or thing: one's nose for example, while the dative is for things owned, as in one's horse or one's sword or house. The distinction has been lost in some modern languages (like English), but it remains in others.

PeterL said:

Dropping the preposition is fine; it is optional in uses like that. It is not personal to anyone or anything, so the dative is correct. Genitive is for things that are truly of a person or thing: one's nose for example, while the dative is for things owned, as in one's horse or one's sword or house. The distinction has been lost in some modern languages (like English), but it remains in others.

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Don't mean to be pedantic here, just curious: how do you explain the genitive in the expression "congregatio fidelium"? I'm pretty sure the Church has its Latin right...

Genitive is not used ONLY for possession, there are verbs that call for genitive for example, and expressions that want the genitive even though they do not mean possession.

OneWriter said:

Don't mean to be pedantic here, just curious: how do you explain the genitive in the expression "congregatio fidelium"? I'm pretty sure the Church has its Latin right...

Genitive is not used ONLY for possession, there are verbs that call for genitive for example, and expressions that want the genitive even though they do not mean possession.

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Yes, there are some verbs that require the genitive, but I have no confidence that the Roman Church uses good classical Latin. Much the Latin that the church uses is Medieval.

OK, I did a quick google search and found that both are used: congregatio followed by de + dative or followed by genitive, so I guess we're both right. I shot an email to my high school Latin teacher, I'll let you know if she says otherwise.

You are right about the fact that depending on what time frame you refer to, Latin has different rules, and different authors (Livius, Caesar, Cicero, etc) reflect that. However, I am fairly sure that the Church uses Classic Latin, that's the reason why they chose Latin to begin with: a dead language that would no longer change, as they had the expectation that their records would be read forever.

Fun discussion, though -- thanks.

OneWriter said:

OK, I did a quick google search and found that both are used: congregatio followed by de + dative or followed by genitive, so I guess we're both right. I shot an email to my high school Latin teacher, I'll let you know if she says otherwise.

You are right about the fact that depending on what time frame you refer to, Latin has different rules, and different authors (Livius, Caesar, Cicero, etc) reflect that. However, I am fairly sure that the Church uses Classic Latin, that's the reason why they chose Latin to begin with: a dead language that would no longer change, as they had the expectation that their records would be read forever.

Fun discussion, though -- thanks.

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I don't know exactly how the phrase was to be used, but I don't think that congregatio would be quite right.

Latin wasn't a choice for me. Two years of Latin were required in my high school. I wonder that people can get into college without at least a year of Latin.

The church straddles the fence on Latin. Most prayers, etc. that were in Latin were in Medieval Latin, good Latin but well post classical; but catholic schools are probably still the best places to learn Classical Latin. I think it would be fair to say that church Latin is different from other flavors of Latin.

I hear you, Latin was mandatory in my school as well. Whenever we had a test, we'd cringe when the translation was from Livius and celebrate when it was from Caesar!!!

In any case, I was talking about the Church's official records (the so called "LITTERAE ENCYCLICAE"), certainly not the prayers which you're right about.

OneWriter said:

I hear you, Latin was mandatory in my school as well. Whenever we had a test, we'd cringe when the translation was from Livius and celebrate when it was from Caesar!!!

In any case, I was talking about the Church's official records (the so called "LITTERAE ENCYCLICAE"), certainly not the prayers which you're right about.

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You may be right about official records, at least for some periods of time. I have never read "LITTERAE ENCYCLICAE", so such things did not come to mind. I would guess that the records from 1000CE are in something other than Classical Latin. I may look into how church Latin changed over the centuries; I have a conjecture about it, but it would need some research. Something to d, if I bother going to Italy.

I just remembered that written Italian didn't exist until about 1300. They spoke Medieval Italian but wrote Latin.

OneWriter said:

Don't mean to be pedantic here, just curious: how do you explain the genitive in the expression "congregatio fidelium"? I'm pretty sure the Church has its Latin right...

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Fidelis is both nominative and genitive singular for faithful. Fidelium is plural genitive.So it means, the Congregation of the Faithful.
The genitive case is described in A New Latin Syntax as being able to turn a noun into an indeclinable adjective. Its chief function is to qualify nouns. You're correct in saying that the genitive is not only about possession.

OneWriter said:

OK, I did a quick google search and found that both are used: congregatio followed by de + dative or followed by genitive, so I guess we're both right. I shot an email to my high school Latin teacher, I'll let you know if she says otherwise.

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The preposition de takes the ablative case, not the dative. If your high school Latin teacher says otherwise, then ea danda leonibus.

You're right!! Man, I'm rusty! (my Latin teacher never replied, BTW)
I still stand by my first translation: congressus sacrificii, with the genitive (not the dative). I've seen it used with de+ablative as in book titles as well.

Rufus Coppertop said:

Fidelis is both nominative and genitive singular for faithful. Fidelium is plural genitive.So it means, the Congregation of the Faithful.
The genitive case is described in A New Latin Syntax as being able to turn a noun into an indeclinable adjective. Its chief function is to qualify nouns. You're correct in saying that the genitive is not only about possession.

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I know that. I was using it as an example to validate my translation with the genitive rather than the dative as it was claimed earlier.

I'd go with genitive.

PeterL said:

Dropping the preposition is fine; it is optional in uses like that. It is not personal to anyone or anything, so the dative is correct. Genitive is for things that are truly of a person or thing: one's nose for example, while the dative is for things owned, as in one's horse or one's sword or house. The distinction has been lost in some modern languages (like English), but it remains in others.

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The dative denotes the person or the thing advantaged or disadvantaged by a verb or who is affected by the quality of something.

It is generally used as the case of the indirect object.

Canem mihi dat. He gives a dog to me. Mihi is dative as I am the indirect object of the verb (dat). Canem is accusative because the dog is the direct object.

A possible use of the dative is canis mihi est. There is a dog for me or a dog exists unto me.

Whilst this usage is about ownership, it's a bit different to the genitive.

Two possible genitive uses are: hic canis mei est. This dog is mine. Hic canis meus est. This is my dog.

When used for ownership purposes, the dative use seems less about direct ownership and more about existence to the advantage of.

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