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HisBoyElroy

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In my opinion, GRR Martin's Song of Fire and Ice books are the best in the high fantasy genre. One of the things I like about them are that the fantasy elements are virtually non-existent. Other than the dragons (which I know will play an important role in the story later) and a little zombie action, the books could be straight historical fantasy.

Is anyone else out there writing books like this? Is there a market for this sort of thing, or are publishers/agents looking for stronger fantasy (dark lords and magic relics and quests etc)?

I'm working on something similar and every once in a while I get cold feet. I wrote a straight historical novel last year (involving Romans and warfare etc) and nobody wanted anything to do with it (citing a lack of interest in "books of that type"). This has affected me more than I thought it would in that now I worry about proceeding without glaring fantasy trappings.
 
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In my opinion, GRR Martin's Song of Fire and Ice books are the best in the high fantasy genre. One of the things I like about them are that the fantasy elements are virtually non-existent. Other than the dragons (which I know will play an important role in the story later) and a little zombie action, the books could be straight historical fantasy.

Is anyone else out there writing books like this? Is there a market for this sort of thing, or are publishers/agents looking for stronger fantasy (dark lords and magic relics and quests etc)?

I'm working on something similar and every once in a while I get cold feet. I wrote a straight historical novel last year (involving Romans and warfare etc) and nobody wanted anything to do with it (citing a lack of interest in "books of that type"). This has affected me more than I thought it would in that now I worry about proceeding without glaring fantasy trappings.



It's not really "high fantasy" when it's low magic, but yes there are similar books out there, such as quite a few things by Guy Gavriel Kay. You might also look into Jennifer Fallon's "Second Sons" trilogy, though that leans a bit towards historicalish sci-fi.
 

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In my opinion, GRR Martin's Song of Fire and Ice books are the best in the high fantasy genre. One of the things I like about them are that the fantasy elements are virtually non-existent.
Which makes them NOT high fantasy.
Is anyone else out there writing books like this? Is there a market for this sort of thing, or are publishers/agents looking for stronger fantasy (dark lords and magic relics and quests etc)?
There are plenty of low and historical and (dare i say it) punk fantasy books out there.
By purely subjective personal estimate, i'd guess the vast majority of original books isn't high fantasy, and the vast majority of high fantasy consequently belongs to some kind of franchise. (like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance)
I'm working on something similar and every once in a while I get cold feet. I wrote a straight historical novel last year (involving Romans and warfare etc) and nobody wanted anything to do with it (citing a lack of interest in "books of that type"). This has affected me more than I thought it would in that now I worry about proceeding without glaring fantasy trappings.
Depends a lot on the target age of the readers i'd guess. Most high fantasy these days seems aimed at a younger audience (see above). Got any more details about why your historical fiction was rejected? There are quite a few historical fiction books in the ancient era i could name, so maybe it wasn't the setting but the story? The ones i remember are thrillers or straight historical retelling so maybe there's no market for warfare if it isn't fantasy.
 

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I don't understand why everyone keeps saying Martin's fantasy has few fantasy elements. The first pages in the first book show zombies killing people. Did we read different versions of A Game of Thrones? The only thing that might make the books low fantasy is the relatively low frequency of magic. The magnitude is fucking tremendous, however. Gods and summoned shadows and dragons and raising people from the dead and horns that can inexplicably knock down impossibly large walls and walking around in fire.
 
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I think what they probably mean is that it's lacking in the magic department - which while it is, I'm pretty sure there *is* magic. I mean, duh, dragons from stone eggs just cos you toss them in the fire?
 
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Yeeees, true. But other than dragons that's about it, fantastical wise iirc


High fantasy tends to have more magic etc in it than that.


Hell, it's got just as much magic as LOTR, and isn't that the quintessential High Fantasy?

Just because people don't go around casting lvl. 31 Greater Fireball doesn't mean there's no magic.
 

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I don't really care about classification. I only care about whether it's good or bad. And ISOAIF is not good. It's downright amazing. If you can write something amazing, then you should, and it should sell.

As for magic, it has plenty.

Magic =/= fireballs.
 

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Hell, it's got just as much magic as LOTR, and isn't that the quintessential High Fantasy?

Just because people don't go around casting lvl. 31 Greater Fireball doesn't mean there's no magic.

Well I can only go by the first SOIAF book as that's all I read. There didn't seem much in that. As for the rest of the series I couldn't comment, but it just doesn't strike me as high in that first book. Zombies and some dragon eggs, that's it ( or all I remember anyway). I take it there's more later?

And LOTR has shed loads of magic, way, way more than I recall in GRRM. And no level 31 Greater Fireballs that I recall.

Anyway back to the OP

Yes, there is a market.

ETA: I see SP edited his post

Gods and summoned shadows and dragons and raising people from the dead and horns that can inexplicably knock down impossibly large walls and walking around in fire.
Fair enough. I just don't recall it being much in the first book. If it gets higher in magic later, fair enough, but the first seemed pretty low in fantastical to me.
 
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efkelley

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To answer the initial question, I've not gone In Search Of books akin to GRRM's series. You might try some Robin Hobb. The Farseer Trilogy (starting with Assassin's Apprentice) has relatively low magic, up until the end that is. Enjoyable reads throughout. The magic isn't as low-key, but it's similar in scale.

There's definitely a market for this sort of thing. I echo Lhun's request for more data.

As for level 31 greater fireballs, Gandalf would have OBLITERATED the Balrog, but he had to memorize too many damn Light spells. It's Pippin's fault. It always is.
 

HisBoyElroy

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It's because Martin's characters are all human and culturally his world is medieval England. What supernatural elements he throws in are in separate side stories (the wall and the dragon lady) that need not even be read through the first few thousand pages to enjoy the main thrust of the story. No comparison to LOTR, which is otherworld from page 1. Admittedly, one of Martin's main characters is a dwarf (clever of him, in a sort of cynical way), but he ain't no Gimli. Even the shape of his geography reminds of England, not to mention Hadrian's...er The Wall.

Didn't mean to spark a firestorm, just wondering if anyone else writes this sort of LOW fantasy...
 
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Martin's story is very otherworld. Trees with faces, genocide against non-human races, wights, giants, magic walls, magic swords from the days of the spellsingers. An omen in the form of a direwolf litter. Just because it's not the sort of flashy material that you see in D&D high fantasy, that doesn't mean it doesn't count. And yes, there's more magic later in the books, including live birth of shadow-demons, resurrection from the dead, and more.
 

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Martin's story is very otherworld. Trees with faces, genocide against non-human races, wights, giants, magic walls, magic swords from the days of the spellsingers.
there is? Not in the first maybe? Which makes the first...not very high ? PS the wall was magical? I thought it was just, like, a wall.

An omen in the form of a direwolf litter.

Big wolves aren't fantastical. They're just ....big wolves?
Just because it's not the sort of flashy material that you see in D&D high fantasy, that doesn't mean it doesn't count.

er that's not at all what I meant. LOTR wasn't flashy with the magic, but it was all there, hanging around in the background. The setting, the races were fantastical. GRRMs aren't to my POV

And yes, there's more magic later in the books, including live birth of shadow-demons, resurrection from the dead, and more.

Maybe I'd like them more then. because the first book was too low on fantastical for me. And too heavy on incest, but hey.

ETA: I just have this thing that. if I'm reading fantasy, I me, me and only me, require some fantastical elements over and above the occasional. It should seep through the whole world. ASOIAF doesn't really do that for me, so I stopped reading. It's not my bag, baby.
 
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there is? Not in the first maybe? Which makes the first...not very high ? PS the wall was magical? I thought it was just, like, a wall.



Big wolves aren't fantastical. They're just ....big wolves?


er that's not at all what I meant. LOTR wasn't flashy with the magic, but it was all there, hanging around in the background.



Maybe I'd like them more then. because the first book was too low on fantastical for me. And too heavy on incest, but hey.


I was refering to the fact that the direwolfs were an omen, not that they were direwolves, although they are in fact magical. I won't say more because I don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't read all the books. The wall is in fact magical, although possibly not the entire thing.


Gotta laugh at the incest, though. A nice reference to Tolkein, intentional or not.

I'm trying to think of how much was magical in the first book. The direwolves, the wights, Ned's sword Ice, the wall to an extent, the Others, the heartwood. It's certainly not "high" fantasy in the way Malazan is, or Dragonlance, but it's not low either.
 

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Gotta laugh at the incest, though. A nice reference to Tolkein, intentional or not.

I'm sorry?


You mean Turin etc? There's a slight difference ( okay, read major f*ing ick factor) when you know it's your sister. If you don't know....tragedy. When you do...*spew*

I don't see it as a reference at all tbh


It's certainly not "high" fantasy in the way Malazan is, or Dragonlance, but it's not low either
.
Sadly I don't think there is a 'middle fantasy' genre :D

ETA: maybe it's more the tone ?
 
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I'm sorry?


You mean Turin etc? There's a slight difference ( okay, read major f*ing ick factor) when you know it's your sister. If you don't know....tragedy. When you do...*spew*

I don't see it as a reference at all tbh


.
Sadly I don't think there is a 'middle fantasy' genre :D

ETA: maybe it's more the tone ?



Lol, I wasn't serious about it being a reference. And it's probably better not to derail this thread with an incest discussion.

Low magic and low fantasy are not quite the same. I'd call a 700ft tall wall of ice that keeps out magical enemies very "high fantasy", for instance.

I do think that Martin's magic is much more subtle than Tolkein's or Alexander's or Kay's, say, but the amount of it in the story is not small, and magic had an extremely large impact on the history of Martin's world, what with dragons and Valyria and the old magic before most of it died out in the West. Not to mention at least two non-human races. Lost empires like Valyria are a very common high fantasy trope, as are dragons, magic swords like Ice, and rightful kings/queens trying to gain their throne.

You might argue there's a presentational difference between Westeros and other fantasy worlds, but I would certainly not lump it in with other "low fantasy" stories out there.


I suppose it's only fair to point out that ASOIAF fits quite well into the "epic fantasy" subgenre, so deciding whether it is low or high might be irrelevant... excepting that the poster wanted more books with "little" magic. *rolls eyes*
 
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Is anyone else out there writing books like this? Is there a market for this sort of thing, or are publishers/agents looking for stronger fantasy (dark lords and magic relics and quests etc)?

In response to this, yes, absolutely there's a market for this sort, and it's what I aim for. Though I guess it depends on what you mean by "this" exactly--the low frequency of magic and elements of historical realism, or the gritty, dark tone and his brutal fashion of treating characters. Either way it has a market.

Alongside Martin, I hear a lot of Robin Hobb and Guy Gavriel Kay (mentioned earlier in the thread). There's also the likes of Brent Weeks and Joe Abercrombie that have a sort of Martin-esque tone, though the similarities end there. I haven't read Joe Abercrombie, but Weeks has a boatload of magic, and while he makes his characters suffer, the good majority live to the end without crippling injuries.

I will also echo sentiment about Martin's skill. He's an amazing writer and though he's not to everyone's taste, I champion him as a personal fantasy idol.
 

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I don't understand why everyone keeps saying Martin's fantasy has few fantasy elements. The first pages in the first book show zombies killing people. Did we read different versions of A Game of Thrones? The only thing that might make the books low fantasy is the relatively low frequency of magic. The magnitude is fucking tremendous, however. Gods and summoned shadows and dragons and raising people from the dead and horns that can inexplicably knock down impossibly large walls and walking around in fire.

You know.... Nothing I've read about GRR Martin's book captured my interest whatsoever.

Until SP's post...
 

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Funny thing is, SP isn't exaggerating.
 

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I'm almost halfway through A Game of Thrones, and I like this book very much. I didn't think I'd like a fantasy novel until I began reading this one. I like the writing and it keeps me captivated. I read Anne Rice's IWTV, and I kept wanting to fall asleep, I don't get that way reading AGOT, unless it's late and I'm already tired. :D

And I learned about it on AW.
 

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Alongside Martin, I hear a lot of Robin Hobb and Guy Gavriel Kay (mentioned earlier in the thread). There's also the likes of Brent Weeks and Joe Abercrombie that have a sort of Martin-esque tone, though the similarities end there. I haven't read Joe Abercrombie, but Weeks has a boatload of magic, and while he makes his characters suffer, the good majority live to the end without crippling injuries.

All extremely pale examples. I read all 4 you mentioned and dismissed part 1s before continuing the series (minus kay's standalone). Disappointing. ASOIAF spoiled me to the point where I hate pretty much everything else.
How Hobbs / Martin comparisons get made I have no clue. Nothing is more different. Hobbs has her own merits, but if someone asked me what's like ASOIAF, she'd be the last on my list to mention.

The only work I could compare to ASOIAF in writing style is Prince of Nothing. But it has too many other problems.
 
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I think that one of the best things about Martin's treatment of magic is not making it commonplace. So much fantasy does it. Once you make 'wizard' into a profession, then naturally you get schools of magic, magic items made for specific purposes, magical regulations, etc.

By keeping magic powerful, inexplicable, and terrifying, Martin raises the tension of his novels. Its got more than a little bit of the Lovecraftian stuff.
 
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