The "Downside" of empathy-based talents? Or, is this a dumb idea?

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Ambri

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So, a few years ago, in an attempt to give my mages/ psions some "weaknesses" or drawbacks to kind of compensate for their special powers, I came up with the idea that, as their abilities are empathic to a greater or lesser extent, and they can kind of "tune in" to the life energy of the world around them, and they can feel the pain of those around them. This would include feeling the pain of animals slaughtered for food, including feeling an "echo" of the pain in the meat or other animal products such as leather. Obviously, this is a drawback in a semi-primitive society, where the community as a whole farms and hunts for foodl, and doesn't have synthetics such as plastic. This necessitates that the Talented are vegetarians--though I'm thinking that it might be okay for them to eat milk products. This also means that to avoid strong "pain echoes" or whatever, in any leather clothing, footwear, etc., they get second-hand clothing/ boots, etc., from others in the village, as the first wearer of the item will eventually "imbue" the item with their own spirit/ essence/ whatever after a while. I figured it would be considered an honor for a villager to give a Talented person worn-in boots, or what-have-you; it could become symbolic of the Talented person's importance to the village.

As a whole, is this a stupid, or lame, or cliche idea? Are there major holes in this idea that I haven't thought of?

My sister, of course, pointed out, "well, why don't they feel the same pain or whatever when eating plants and stuff?" My answer was, well, plants, as far as I know, don't have a brain, or nerve endings, or anything like that, and while these talented individuals can sometimes feel the "life pulse" of the forest and trees around them, they can't necessarily feel a strong life force from an individual plant or tree, since plants are such a different life form from animals." Is this a lame/ BS explanation for why they can still eat plants?
 

Mr Flibble

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I hope it's not stupid because I used a ( much more basic) idea myself. The empaths are divided into two groups - they can't eat what they kill, because they've literally 'shared the death' so some hunt, and only eat farmed food and the farmers only eat hunted meat.

Of course, in mine the spirit ( or whathaveyou) didn't linger, so the rest wasn't a problem. But if that fits your world, you go for it. Just make sure you work out all the ramefications so it doesn't come back to bite you in the backside later in the story! ( ie, 'well, he wouldn't wear those boots because they belonged to Evul Dude and he'd be able to feel Da Evul) Would people get extra brownie points for being a first wearer? Or would that just be the Untalented? Hmm. I can see someone making a living from that!

As for cliche, gods know. But don't let that stop you ( unless you can think of a really nice twist on it)

And the explanation re trees sounds okay, though you might want to make sure you've really thought it through ( just for your own peace of mind!)
 

Lhun

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A complete and utter derail, but this OP just made me wonder (again) what it is that makes vitalism so ubiquitous in fiction?
Is it that most people at heart still believe in it, or does it just make for better or easier storytelling?
 

Mr Flibble

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Maybe because vitalism is such a strong influence in religions other than the Big Three and plays such a big part in myth ( and therefore the inspiration for many a fantasy)

And yes, I think people do believe it in a sense. 'That bloody car is laughing at me when it won't start'. 'Have you ever noticed that if you threaten your PC with an axe, it suddenly starts working?'

It's almost like it's hard-wired into us. We are vital, so it's not outlandish to assume other things are too. It's only relatively recently ( as time goes in teh history of humans) that we've decided that this isn't so, at least in the rational parts of our brains. Our less rational, more intuitive parts maybe still think it, so it's easy to tap into. Maybe some parts of some people want to believe it, or want to go back to the time when it was possible to believe it.

Woah, you made me have some really deep thoughts there. Must find antidote.


Plus it's a hand way to signpost you're writing fantasy :D
 

Lhun

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And yes, I think people do believe it in a sense. 'That bloody car is laughing at me when it won't start'. 'Have you ever noticed that if you threaten your PC with an axe, it suddenly starts working?'
That'd be anthropomorphism actually. ;)
Vitalism is the idea of a kind of "life energy" existing.
Though of course they're not exclusive. If that bloody computer really is alive, who's to say it doesn't have its own chi? (to pick the most famous vitalistic term of all)
And it's most definitly bad chi.
 

Mr Flibble

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Oopsie. that'll teach me to post under the influence of meds :D I was thinking of animism, which is what I thought you meant because it was what I saw in the OP.


*glares at tablet bottle*

*sighs*

*looks up vitalism*

I think it's more animism that is represented in fiction( esp fantasy), but that's just my interpretation. YMMV

PS - the new computer system at work hates me. Works fine for everyone else, but crashes every time I touch it. The rational part of my brain says it's because I type too fast - yeah it's that good a system - but a little voice in my head says it's because the computer hates me. It does hate me. It's not even when I type. I click on something it, laughs silently at me and ignores it. However me and the old system are pals
 
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Lhun

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Oopsie. that'll teach me to post under the influence of meds :D I was thinking of animism, which is what I thought you meant because it was what I saw in the OP.
Well, they're not exclusive either. You might be right that animism is at least as common as vitalism. Maybe it's just that i notice a little more of the latter, but it really is everywhere. And in fiction as diverse as Babylon 5, a SF TV series or, well, pretty much every fantasy book written, ever.
 

MumblingSage

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The explanation for why they can eat plants flies by me okay. I have only one question that might not be relevant--would these empaths be able to do surgery on someone (okay, I get it's a limited-tech society, which is why my question might be irrelevant, but there's always a tricky childbirth or battlefield amputations and such), or would they be unable to bear someone else's pain even for a good cause? I ask because people with great empathy skills would probably make good healers, except for this drawback...
 

Canotila

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One of the main antagonists of my WIP is an empath, and a surgeon. He's pretty messed up from immersing himself in other people's emotions/sufferings over time. He tends to dope himself up pretty well after working on a patient.
 

vfury

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I think there should definitely be a weakness or downside to having powers, and I like the ones you've suggested. Something I've been thinking about lately is how an empath would treat others with their sensitivity to feelings. An old friend of mine claimed to be an empath, but this seemed to go out the window whenever they picked an argument with someone and caused them pain. I always felt an empath would be less inclined to cause extreme emotions in others as it would rebound back on them.
 

Anaximander

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I always felt an empath would be less inclined to cause extreme emotions in others as it would rebound back on them.
On the other hand, there are too types of empath - those who can sense other people's emotions, and those who feel other people's emotions as if they were their own. The latter can be more inclined to start arguments that non-empaths, because the moment one person gets angry, the empath feels angry, and they do something to make the other person angry, which makes the empath angrier, and there's a feedback loop that ends in all-out war.

Yes, that was the plot of a Star Trek episode, but it's still a valid point. :p
 
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On the other hand, there are too types of empath - those who can sense other people's emotions, and those who feel other people's emotions as if they were their own. The latter can be more inclined to start arguments that non-empaths, because the moment one person gets angry, the empath feels angry, and they do something to make the other person angry, which makes the empath angrier, and there's a feedback loop that ends in all-out war.

Yes, that was the plot of a Star Trek episode, but it's still a valid point. :p


There's also, you know, projective empaths.
 

Ambri

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So far, it looks like I'm getting some decent, positive reactions to this idea. Yay :) Good point, those of you who mentioned that there are different types of empaths. I think mine are generally in the range of "able to sense the emotions of others", but not necessarily able to feel those emotions as if they were the person's own. Although I might make an exception to that "rule" during empath love scenes ;) :) How's that for the "silver lining"?

To answer MumblingSage's question:
I have only one question that might not be relevant--would these empaths be able to do surgery on someone (okay, I get it's a limited-tech society, which is why my question might be irrelevant, but there's always a tricky childbirth or battlefield amputations and such), or would they be unable to bear someone else's pain even for a good cause? I ask because people with great empathy skills would probably make good healers, except for this drawback.../QUOTE]

Yes, one of the main things my hardcore empaths (as opposed to empath/ telekinetic) do is heal. And yes, through years of practice, which includes a lot of meditation and other methods designed to allow them to work through the pain, they've managed to find methods that allow them to heal, without curling up into a little ball from the backwash of echoing pain. However, in my WIP, there will eventually come a time when the majority of the empath's village is destroyed, and she was close enough when it happened that she felt their combined agony of dying. This will pretty much send her into a catatonic state for a while. . . . Do any of you ever feel guilt for what you do to your characters? :p
 

shaldna

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The problem with this is where does it stop? Do they feel the pain of vegtables? or the coldness of the sheep who's wool they are wearing?
 

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You need to read Zenna Henderson’s The People Series (Ingathering contains them all). She addresses this concept brilliantly, and makes the reader know, as well as do the characters, what being empathetic means, and how it affects every aspect of your life.

Of course, she postulates a lot more than just empathy, but that’s at the heart of her characters, and her writing.
 

lachlan

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I am completely taken with the 'second-hand clothes carry the original impression' idea. THAT will spin off so many worldbuilding and story ideas all by itself. Love it!
 
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