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desperadium
03-13-2010, 03:39 PM
To send submissions (i mean three chapters and synopsis) without having finished the rest of the book?
I really want to be rep'd by wade and doherty, what if i kept sending submissions until they wanted to see more? Then even if i don't manage to finish it in time, i know at least that they want it, and can send it again?
Any thoughts on the matter would be great.

P.S I've finished and redrafted five novels so i have a pretty good idea how long it will take me, i just can't stand to go on writing books that no one wants.

illiterwrite
03-13-2010, 03:46 PM
It's easy to finish three chapters. Not so easy to finish and polish a novel.

Finish the book. Then query.

heyjude
03-13-2010, 04:11 PM
:welcome: desperadium! Yes, finish the book, polish till it hurts, then and only then can you submit. It is considered unprofessional to query for an unfinished fiction work.

In the meantime, start learning all you can about the business side of publishing. You came to a good place!

Danthia
03-13-2010, 05:26 PM
It's a very bad idea. Agents want completed books they can sell. They have no way of knowing if you can finish a book (they won't take your word on it) or if that finished book will be any good.

Anything you submit needs to be complete, and polished til it shines.

kaitie
03-13-2010, 06:19 PM
Just popping in to say the chances of getting picked up by a single agency that you like are incredibly slim, and I'd hope you're sending to more than that. And by more, I don't mean five, I mean fifty or a hundred (my list is twice that long). If you aren't getting manuscript requests, it likely means that there's a problem with your query letter.

It's not unusual to not have your first book published. Writing is a skill that takes time to develop, and most of us take at least a few books to produce something that's actually publishable.

desperadium
03-13-2010, 10:10 PM
. And by more, I don't mean five, I mean fifty or a hundred (my list is twice that long). .

The thing is, i struggle to believe that that much rejection is really necessary. I have a list of ten , if they don't want it, i start again, but that routine is getting tiring. I think i'm going to ignore all your advice and give this way a go. Thanks anyway!

scarletpeaches
03-13-2010, 10:12 PM
There aren't fifty to a hundred agencies in this country anyway so sometimes it just isn't possible to sub the same book that many times.

Most of the people I know with agents only subbed to 5-10 places.

In answer to the OP: BAD IDEA. BAD BAD BAD.

Perks
03-13-2010, 10:14 PM
The thing is, i struggle to believe that that much rejection is really necessary. I have a list of ten , if they don't want it, i start again, but that routine is getting tiring. I think i'm going to ignore all your advice and give this way a go. Thanks anyway!If you do it your way, you will blow your opportunity at landing your first-choice agent. You don't get multiple chances at the same agency with the same manuscript.

You get one.

desperadium
03-13-2010, 10:17 PM
If you do it your way, you will blow your opportunity at landing your first-choice agent. You don't get multiple chances at the same agency with the same manuscript.

You get one.

This is persuming i don't manage to write it in time, i'm unemloyed , so i like my chances.

Chris P
03-13-2010, 10:18 PM
Not for fiction. Put yourself in the agent's shoes: Would you go through all the paperwork of signing with a client who is perhaps six to twelve months from delivering something you can work with? Or perhaps having some sort of crisis and not delivering at all? I wouldn't.

ETA: You seem confident that this will work. Of course you can go ahead and try it. But many others have gone before and met with the same (unfavorable) results. Publishing is a business while writing is an art. That's an important distinction that us writers would do well to never forget. Further, I don't see how getting an agent now puts you ahead of the game; the book still needs to be written.

CAWriter
03-13-2010, 10:20 PM
I think i'm going to ignore all your advice and give this way a go. Thanks anyway!

Hey, good luck with that.

Couple minor observances (that I'll put as nicely as I can and more nicely than some here would):


If you don't really want advice, or only want to hear what you want to hear, don't ask.
There's a lot of guidance out there on agent's blogs, etc and the consensus is DON'T query a novel you haven't finished.
Almost as much as agents won't rep people who write badly, they don't want to rep people who can't/won't play by the rules or take direction.
If this attitude comes across is your query and such, it may not be that they aren't interested in the novel itself.


To be honest, the question and your reply sounds like a joke. I don't mean to make light of it if this is a serious post, but there's an echo in my mind that keeps saying "You've got to be kidding."

desperadium
03-13-2010, 10:21 PM
I wouldn't expect them to sign me without seeing the finished book , of course not. I don't expect them to invest in me in anway at all.

scarletpeaches
03-13-2010, 10:21 PM
Agents also tend to only sign clients who can spell.

Perks
03-13-2010, 10:27 PM
This is persuming i don't manage to write it in time, i'm unemloyed , so i like my chances.Huh?

You said this -


To send submissions (i mean three chapters and synopsis) without having finished the rest of the book? I really want to be rep'd by wade and doherty, what if i kept sending submissions until they wanted to see more? Then even if i don't manage to finish it in time, i know at least that they want it, and can send it again?You will only get one chance to send them three chapters and a synopsis. If they reject you once, you're done with them for that manuscript. You don't get another shot at it. If you send it before the book's finished, that necessarily means that first three chapters have not been edited as part of a whole. So, not only will you not have a finished product if they call you up the following week for the rest of it (and, no, they won't wait for you to finish it), but it will also mean that you haven't edited the first three chapters thoroughly. Ergo, they're not ready for submission either.

No one will stop you from doing it this way. It's in all our better interests to have people behaving unprofessionally to get themselves out of the loop as quickly as possible. That way they don't clog up the works for other people taking it seriously.

If your writing and your story is good, though, it's a shame to shoot yourself in the foot out of impatience.

What did you ask for if you didn't want honest advice from people who've been there?

desperadium
03-13-2010, 10:28 PM
Further, I don't see how getting an agent now puts you ahead of the game; the book still needs to be written.

I want to write a novel knowing the original idea is a good one, and that how i've wrote the first chapters is good.

Chris P
03-13-2010, 10:28 PM
I wouldn't expect them to sign me without seeing the finished book , of course not. I don't expect them to invest in me in anway at all.

So are you looking for someone to say "I like this so far, send it to me when it's done and we'll talk"? I've never heard of that happening (short of having an "in" with an agent who owes you or a friend a favor). Agents have enough work to do as it is, and I seriously doubt that they will take the time to read an unfinished work. They have to manage their time somehow.

And once again, how does this put you ahead? You are likely to finish the book in the same amount of time anyway and will only have to resubmit it.

Perks
03-13-2010, 10:29 PM
To be honest, the question and your reply sounds like a joke. I don't mean to make light of it if this is a serious post, but there's an echo in my mind that keeps saying "You've got to be kidding."Yeah, that's what I thought as well. I caught a whiff of Old Spicy Troll.

Wayne K
03-13-2010, 10:29 PM
I can't read this whole thread, but if no one has mentioned the "Too To Two" thing, it would remiss of me not to

Chris P
03-13-2010, 10:31 PM
I want to write a novel knowing the original idea is a good one, and that how i've wrote the first chapters is good.


Post samples in the Share Your Work forum here. Granted, not all of the input you will get will be from professionals, but you will have a better idea of what is going to work. It's a great forum and I have learned more in just a few months of SYW than in the previous five years of active writing on my own.

stormie
03-13-2010, 10:31 PM
Everyone here gave you accurate info on this business we call writing. Yes, we like what we do, but ultimately if you want to get published, it's a business and you have to abide by what agents want to see--and that's a finished and polished novel.

ETA: As Chris said, post some of the first chapter in the Share Your Work section.

desperadium
03-13-2010, 10:31 PM
What did you ask for if you didn't want honest advice from people who've been there?

I do want advice,just because i've decided to give it a go doesn't mean i don't want to hear what people have to say.

CAWriter
03-13-2010, 10:33 PM
I want to write a novel knowing the original idea is a good one, and that how i've wrote the first chapters is good.

Then you might be better off finding a local critique group or attending a conference that gives you the opportunity to get a critique from agents/editors/published authors. Or submit your chapters to a contest. There are other ways of getting feedback on your writing and idea than ticking off a lot of agents who won't want to see anything else from you.

mscelina
03-13-2010, 10:34 PM
Before you submit anything--anything! even a query letter-- it needs to be polished until it shines. Write the whole book, rewrite it, rewrite it again. Double and triple check your spelling, punctuation and grammar.

In the end, if you can't present a professional product, it doesn't matter if you query one time or one hundred. And, if you're going to ignore any advice you get, why even bother to ask? Your chances of succeeding in this venture are, as far as I can tell at this moment, exactly zero. If a writer flooded my inbox with the same query over and over for their book (and it has and continues to happen), those emails get deleted without even being opened. And nothing makes me write a rejection faster than seeing a spelling error in a query letter.

Just my two cents. Feel free to ignore it, though, since it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Perks
03-13-2010, 10:35 PM
I can't read this whole thread, but if no one has mentioned the "Too To Two" thing, it would remiss of me not toAh, Wayne. We were trying not to be jerks and give a newb a free typo. But it's wonderful for you to be our heavy.

;)

Perks
03-13-2010, 10:38 PM
I want to write a novel knowing the original idea is a good one, and that how i've wrote the first chapters is good.
Yeah, you really don't want to find this out from your dream agent. There are many ways to determine if what you've got is any good without burning up your one and only first impression with the agent-of-choice.

desperadium
03-13-2010, 10:40 PM
We were trying not to be jerks

This actually made me laugh.

Perks
03-13-2010, 10:41 PM
P.S I've finished and redrafted five novels so i have a pretty good idea how long it will take me, i just can't stand to go on writing books that no one wants.
Ah, now see, here you have my empathy. For me, the very hardest thing about writing is finding the motivation to continue when you can never be sure that what you're doing will be anything that anyone wants.

This we can all help you with. This we can talk about. This is an extremely common boogeyman in the writerly closet.

Don't query the wrong way, desp. Find a circle, here or somewhere, of writers and readers you can trust. They'll help you get through this motivational crisis.

Sophia
03-13-2010, 10:45 PM
To desperadium: I second what Perks says about only getting one chance with an agency. There was a thread here a couple of years ago where a writer had received a request for their manuscript. Unfortunately, they had submitted a query for an unfinished work, and now they were desperately trying to get it written within a few days. I've been trying to find the thread; I think it might give you a view of what you may have to deal with. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Perks
03-13-2010, 10:50 PM
It happens all the time. Years ago, I had a manuscript. I thought I was done. So, I queried. While the query was out, I linked up with an incredible mentor who informed me that, sadly, no, the book wasn't done. Then I got a request for a full from one of my favorite agencies. Oh shit. So, I stalled and rushed through a rewrite and -- yep, reaped a rejection for a manuscript that wasn't ready for primetime.

desperadium
03-13-2010, 10:54 PM
So are you looking for someone to say "I like this so far, send it to me when it's done and we'll talk"? I've never heard of that happening (short of having an "in" with an agent who owes you or a friend a favor). Agents have enough work to do as it is, and I seriously doubt that they will take the time to read an unfinished work. They have to manage their time somehow.


I wouldn't tell them its not complete, do you think they would allow me to take ten days or so to make 'a couple of changes?' Its not like they would be wasting their time as i do it..?

mscelina
03-13-2010, 10:55 PM
No. They would expect the full manuscript, polished, attached and ready by return email.

Perks
03-13-2010, 10:59 PM
Desperadium, why do you think agents who represent fiction explicitly state in their submission guidelines to only submit completed, polished works? On this site, we have writers with small-press successes all the way up to New York Times bestsellers and every one of them would tell you not to do this.

I guess that's all we can say. I have a hat here that I'll gladly eat if you can find for me a novelist of any stripe of success at all who would endorse your plan. And it's all well and good to consider yourself one of a kind, but it's also almost always misguided.

Wayne K
03-13-2010, 11:04 PM
I can't read this whole thread, but if no one has mentioned the "Too To Two" thing, it would remiss of me not to


Ah, Wayne. We were trying not to be jerks and give a newb a free typo. But it's wonderful for you to be our heavy.

;)
I burned a bunch of bridges with worse, so I get to be brutal sometimes.

Chris P
03-13-2010, 11:07 PM
I wouldn't tell them its not complete, do you think they would allow me to take ten days or so to make 'a couple of changes?' Its not like they would be wasting their time as i do it..?

As much of a mistake it would be to submit an unfinished MS, it's an even bigger mistake to be dishonest. The former simply makes you look inexperienced, while the latter makes you look like a fraud.

But I'll return to the point I've made at least twice before in this thread to which you have not responded: If it's only going to take you ten days to finish, why not finish and then start querying? Problem solved. I don't see what you hope to gain by this.

I reiterate my earlier comments and those of others to get some beta readers, post in SYW, get involved in a critique circle, and don't approach and agent before your MS is in the best shape it can be.

Final comment: 90% of the input you will get from the agents is a form "No thanks/doesn't fit our goals/relationship won't work at this time." You will get much more productive input from us here. Seriously.

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:07 PM
I burned a bunch of bridges with worse, so I get to be brutal sometimes.And I damned near cyber-killed you and we kissed and made up, so, yeah, it happens.

:)

scarletpeaches
03-13-2010, 11:12 PM
Even if you say "I need some time to make a couple of changes," you look like an amateur. An agent expects a spit-polished manuscript, not a half-assed unfinished effort.

Kateness
03-13-2010, 11:15 PM
Let's say that it works.
Let's say that the three chapters plus synopsis does everything you want it to and you get a request for a full.

You write the thing in ten days (not impossible for a first draft, especially if you're on a ridiculous deadline).

And when you get to the ending, you realize that the first two of those three chapters don't belong anymore and the story really starts at the third chapter. What the hell are you going to do then? Send a note back to the agent saying 'woops, sent you two old chapters, my bad'?

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:16 PM
Final comment: 90% of the input you will get from the agents is a form "No thanks/doesn't fit our goals/relationship won't work at this time." You will get much more productive input from us here. Seriously.Absolutely. Mostly you'll never know the specifics of why you were rejected or how close your manuscript came to being something they would have considered. They don't get paid to foster writers they're not going to take on.

I saw a top-tier agent speak on this once and he told us that he had to reject a book that he thought was fantastic, that he really wanted, because of the opening premise. It was a thriller and this agent had one great contact for this type of thriller (he mostly represented literary) but the writer's story hinged on it opening with a murder in a restaurant. By some crazy coincidence the last two thrillers this agent had pitched to this editor had opened with a restaurant murder. He declined the guy so that he wouldn't lose credibility with the editor. But, pressed for time, he sent the writer a form rejection. Ugh. Painful.

Find a mentor and/or a critique circle here or somewhere. The generosity and enthusiasm of like-minded writers will do wonders for you.

desperadium
03-13-2010, 11:18 PM
Kateness! I'm one of your lurky readers from nano , hello!

yeah i would just tell them i have better ,if that was the case. If they had such an issue with that my perception of them was wrong and i end it happily.

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:20 PM
Even if you say "I need some time to make a couple of changes," you look like an amateur. An agent expects a spit-polished manuscript, not a half-assed unfinished effort.I know! I had an agent (who ultimately made an offer of representation) tell me to send it to her about half an hour after I'd queried. She had a new ereader, was about to go on a trip, and wanted to take my manuscript with her.

You can't count on a buffer of time to finish and tweak.

Toothpaste
03-13-2010, 11:21 PM
Here's the thing I don't get, if it only takes you 10 days to write a book, why not just write it first? I know you don't want to invest your time in something that may be rejected (I do have to ask what makes you so special that you don't feel you should do that when every other author starting out does?), but if it takes you only 10 days, well if your work is rejected, it's not like it was a huge time commitment on your part now was it? You can easily write another work. You could write 3 novels in one month.

Seriously, it's totally up to you if you want to take the advice of the other authors and agents who probably know a bit more about this than you do (the fact that you think you can keep sending the same query to an agency over and over and not, you know, seriously annoy them, suggests to me you don't quite get how all this works), is cool. No one can force you to do anything.

I will say that of course we empathise with you. It's tough writing something with but a hope it might get published. But that's the thing, writing isn't easy, and there's no easy route to publication. You might not think you need to get that much rejection, but it's not about need. It's about what happens. For your sake I hope you're the exception to the rule. But I also hope you don't get too upset if you are proven not to be. You can always come to us here for more advice, or for a critique of your work etc.

Good luck!

desperadium
03-13-2010, 11:25 PM
when have i ever said i would keep sending the same query?

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:27 PM
Your first post read that way -



I really want to be rep'd by wade and doherty, what if i kept sending submissions until they wanted to see more?

What did you mean, then, if not requerying them?

Kateness
03-13-2010, 11:28 PM
Maybe writing fresh sets of opening chapters for a dozen different books?

desperadium
03-13-2010, 11:29 PM
Exactly Kateness , new stuff everytime.

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:30 PM
Maybe writing fresh sets of opening chapters for a dozen different books?

Oooooh! That could be. Boggles the mind, but yeah, okay, I see that this fits. At least it makes sense.

Okay, desp, still horrible idea, but now I at least think I understand your plan.

scarletpeaches
03-13-2010, 11:32 PM
So...this thread is about selling a book before you've actually written one?

Cassiopeia
03-13-2010, 11:32 PM
I do want advice,just because i've decided to give it a go doesn't mean i don't want to hear what people have to say.

The problem I see with this, is that once you've made up your mind, nothing we say has any real bearing on the matter.

First ask questions, then decided. That's how you keep from having a crowd turning on you when you show them you don't value their opinion nor the time it took them to give it to you.

The same goes for a query on an unfinished work. It's extremely rude. It shows a distinct lack of respect for the agent's time. You are completely wasting their time by asking for them to read 3 chapters when you've not got a finished product.

Not only will it show that you're work is amateurish and incomplete but it will be an indication that you are careless with others valuable time.

desperadium
03-13-2010, 11:35 PM
If you don't want to waste your time giving me an opinion, its very simple really, don't!

Cassiopeia
03-13-2010, 11:37 PM
If you don't want to waste your time giving me an opinion, its very simple really, don't!thank you for making my point for me.

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:39 PM
And then we're back to the idea that it's possible to write a polished, ready-to-submit novel in ten days. I know that there are plenty of people who write quality prose a hell of a lot faster than I do (thank god) but it's difficult to imagine a finished manuscript in that amount of time.

Can you really bang out a novel-length work of any quality in less than two weeks? An agent won't stand for you submitting a first draft.

scarletpeaches
03-13-2010, 11:40 PM
If you don't want to waste your time giving me an opinion, it's very simple really; don't!If you've already made up your mind what you're going to do, why ask others' opinions?

Now sure, you could just say you're interested, wanted to start a discussion, but here's the thing: in several posts you've made several spelling and punctuation errors which demonstrates a slapdash attitude to writing. Typos? It doesn't matter on a message board? Well okay. But this is a message board for writers. A message board on which certain agents and publishers lurk.

As for trying to sell a book you haven't even written yet, that's an insult to the value of the agent's time, as if they haven't got enough on their plate without waiting for you to get to 'the end'.

Write a book you're passionate about and that enthusiasm will carry you through to the end. If you're forever waiting for someone else's approval before finishing something, then you never will.

Writing a book to order never works - unless you're L. A. Witt.

(And yes, Perks - she wrote The Distance Between Us in eleven days).

Toothpaste
03-13-2010, 11:40 PM
Exactly Kateness , new stuff everytime.

Okay. So you plan on sending new stuff every time. First three chapters right? How often are you planning on doing this? Because, see, agents aren't stupid. If they get an email from you once a week say, with brand new chapters to a brand new book, they are going to start to realise that maybe you're playing them a little bit. That maybe you don't have the rest of a novel to go with those chapters. They aren't going to like the idea that you are wasting their time. And if you decide you're going to be clever and wait a month between submissions so as not to arouse suspicions (though even a month probably won't be enough time to convince agents that you have a full MS for them to see) . . . well then that goes back to my initial question: if you can write a book in 10 days, why not write it first?

desperadium
03-13-2010, 11:41 PM
I think i can , a lot of writers seem to be masters at wasting time, i think eight hours a day would do it fine. (in reply to perks)

Marian Perera
03-13-2010, 11:41 PM
Can you really bang out a novel-length work of any quality in less than two weeks?

Maybe if the manuscript still isn't ready at the end of ten days or two weeks, desperadium can ask the agent for more time.

As he/she said before, "If they had such an issue with that my perception of them was wrong and i end it happily" and "Its not like they would be wasting their time as i do it.."

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:42 PM
I think i can , a lot of writers seem to be masters at wasting time, i think eight hours a day would do it fine. (in reply to perks)Well, there you go. Knock yourself out, then. Do let us know how it goes.

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:43 PM
Maybe if the manuscript still isn't ready at the end of ten days or two weeks, desperadium can ask the agent for more time.

As he/she said before, "If they had such an issue with that my perception of them was wrong and i end it happily" and "Its not like they would be wasting their time as i do it.."Silly me. The answer was there all along. Thank you, madam.

scarletpeaches
03-13-2010, 11:44 PM
Well, there you go. Knock yourself out, then. Do let us know how it goes.And to add to my previous post, Lori's not all talk - she'd already proven she could write like her face was on fire.

desperadium
03-13-2010, 11:44 PM
Well, there you go. Knock yourself out, then. Do let us know how it goes.

I could point out that awhile ago i said i was going to try it anyway.

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:46 PM
And to add to my previous post, Lori's not all talk - she'd already proven she could write like her face was on fire.Oh, I know! But even Lori, as far as I know, doesn't go soup to nuts (odd choice of saying, given her genre, lol!) in ten days, right?

scarletpeaches
03-13-2010, 11:46 PM
This thread makes baby Jesus cry.

Toothpaste
03-13-2010, 11:46 PM
Sigh. I'm feeling ignored. Could you please answer my question? It's truly sincere. Why not write the book first if it would only take 10 days?

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:46 PM
I could point out that awhile ago i said i was going to try it anyway.
You could at that, couldn't you?

desperadium
03-13-2010, 11:47 PM
If you hate this thread so much you could always just go away and let me talk to the people who are actually saying something on topic.

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:47 PM
Sigh. I'm feeling ignored. Could you please answer my question? It's truly sincere. Why not write the book first if it would only take 10 days?
Hedging his bets against Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?

scarletpeaches
03-13-2010, 11:49 PM
If you hate this thread so much you could always just go away and let me talk to the people who are actually saying something on topic.Don't you have seventeen books to write?

desperadium
03-13-2010, 11:49 PM
Toothpaste i think i've already answered your question really, i just don't want to to keep writing books that might have been bad to begin with.
To which you will reply that i can get advice on this board about my writing.

Chris P
03-13-2010, 11:49 PM
Sigh. I'm feeling ignored. Could you please answer my question? It's truly sincere. Why not write the book first if it would only take 10 days?

My three attempts at the same question have been ignored as well. Oh well. I've got chapters to revise before I start querying. Cheers all.

Cassiopeia
03-13-2010, 11:50 PM
If you hate this thread so much you could always just go away and let me talk to the people who are actually saying something on topic.And the rudeness just keeps on coming.

Wow.

Good luck.

When it comes time for it, humble pie isn't all that hard to swallow once you learn how to cut it up into bite size pieces.

Marian Perera
03-13-2010, 11:51 PM
i just don't want to to keep writing books that might have been bad to begin with.

This is like saying, "I want to be a champion figure skater but I just don't want to keep slipping and falling."

Kateness
03-13-2010, 11:51 PM
Sure, I've written full-length manuscripts in ten days or less.

Are they ready to be submitted? Hell no. They're not utter dreck, but if I'm sending something out with my name on it, I want it to be the best thing I'm capable of writing. And if it takes me five years to get that manuscript as ready as possible, then I'll slug it out for those five years.

First drafts are never going to make a good impression, unless you're in the (probably) 0.0001% of us who can bang out a really, really good first draft really, really quickly

Cassiopeia
03-13-2010, 11:52 PM
This is like saying, "I want to be a champion figure skater but I just don't want to keep slipping and falling."QFT. Yep, I suspect our poster suffers from "writing is so easy I know I can do it and I'm just lazy enough to think that 8 hours a day for 10 days is enough to bang out a polished and ready work" disease.

Not to worry, time and enough doses of having their ass handed to them will bring them round.

Perks
03-13-2010, 11:56 PM
If you hate this thread so much you could always just go away and let me talk to the people who are actually saying something on topic.

I know it looks like we're picking on you, but the reason you've gotten irritable reactions is twofold: your premise presumes you're smarter than everyone else and you've been quite snippy about it.

What you're proposing is not the way it's done because it's disrespectful of the time and effort of agents and editors, and it's arrogant to think that you've figured out a way to avoid the hard work and trials that everyone else is willing to pay to be any good. Ten days downpayment of your typing is likely not worth the career efforts of publishing professionals or the reading public.

These sorts of things will annoy serious writers who care about their craft.

desperadium
03-13-2010, 11:56 PM
I don't plan to send out first drafts.

Eight hours will mean 16,000 a day. I will have a first draft in 4 days, as i will already have at least 20,000 if they ask for it. I will have 6 days for redrafting.

mscelina
03-13-2010, 11:58 PM
Look, desperandium, if you just want pats on the back and "Go for it!" and a lot of thoughtless validation for something you've already decided to do, then you're in the wrong place. This is a forum for professional writers--several of whom have already told you how this little pipe dream of yours will end. Badly. And, you might be horrified to realize how long this agency will remember your name--for years after you get out of school!--and even then, when your writing is good enough and polished enough to attract an agent's interest, you will be blackballed because you acted like a cheesy little stalker and multi-queried them on a book that (a) wasn't completed; (b) wasn't polished and (c) probably wasn't anything they were interested in representing anyway.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I'm being nowhere near as harsh as an agent who feels harassed would be. Seriously--work on your writing. Finish the book, and then revise it until it's so tight you could bounce a quarter off of it. Then, and only then, submit your manuscript to an agency you'd want to represent you. If you are incapable or unwilling to follow this advice, then there's not a hell of a lot anyone can do for you.

Toothpaste
03-13-2010, 11:58 PM
Toothpaste i think i've already answered your question really, i just don't want to to keep writing books that might have been bad to begin with.
To which you will reply that i can get advice on this board about my writing.

Actually you really didn't, but thank you for this.

And please don't tell me what I'm going to say next thank you very much. We are not one entity on this board, we are all individuals here.

What I would say, if you are at all interested in my unique opinion and don't feel a need to judge me, is that if it only takes you 10 days, that's hardly a time commitment, and what's more the more we write the better our writing gets. So, in writing say 2 books in one month (which gives you more than 10 days) you can not only have complete works which took very little of your time to do, but you will also have practiced your craft and probably gotten better at it.

But I have something else to say as well. My beginnings suck. They really do. Which means my first three chapters are usually the weakest part of my work. It isn't until I finish my book and go back and take all I've learned from writing the rest of the novel about the characters and voice and plot and theme etc, that I can create a compelling opening. You may be different than me (after all we aren't the same person), but you might wish to consider that the act of completing a book might actually make those first few chapters more compelling and thus more likely to draw interest. To simply submit the first three chapters all the time as if they were independent from a greater work might actually be doing you a disservice in the long run.

At any rate, you seem determined to try it your way, and I wish you the best of luck. I only hope you take a moment to maybe consider that some of us know what we're talking about a little bit. You don't need to take our advice, just keep it in the back of your mind . . .

Kateness
03-13-2010, 11:59 PM
There's a reason people are told to put aside their work for a bit once they've finished it before they go back and edit it; you're too damn close to it.

Finished, publishable draft in ten days?
I'm just not sure I buy it.

Plus, unless you've done it before (and not saying you haven't), 16,000 a day is not that easy to push out, even when you want to. Doable? Yeah. Easy? Nope, and it'll be hard on your hands and wrists if you've not done it before.

Wayne K
03-14-2010, 12:10 AM
What's the rush anyway?

What does it matter if you're published at 30 or 40?

Your way, you'll fail, I assure you. Take your time, and listen to people who have gone before you, and it'll happen.

Cassiopeia
03-14-2010, 12:11 AM
I don't plan to send out first drafts.

Eight hours will mean 16,000 a day. I will have a first draft in 4 days, as i will already have at least 20,000 if they ask for it. I will have 6 days for redrafting.64,000 on a first draft means that when you edit you will whittle it down (as that's what happens in a proper edit) to let's be generous, and say 50k. That's a novella really. We have several published writers on this forum who can tell you that 6 days and a once go over is not enough editing for a polished work.

But hey, don't let us stop you. You go right on ahead and do what you want anyway and when you get your ass handed to you, I wouldn't be looking for anything less than, "WE TOLD YOU SO".

Had you been nicer, we'd probably get you to laugh as we all know what it's like to be foolhardy and pigheaded and stubborn from time to time.

Marian Perera
03-14-2010, 12:16 AM
There's something worse than rejection. Desperadium could get involved with the kind of agent who doesn't care if the submission is an incomplete novella or a complete grocery list.

Of course, that agent will be sure to say what such a writer wishes to hear.

Cassiopeia
03-14-2010, 12:18 AM
There's something worse than rejection. Desperadium could get involved with the kind of agent who doesn't care if the submission is an incomplete novella or a complete grocery list.

Of course, that agent will be sure to say what such a writer wishes to hear.As long as they get paid...right? I'm thinking of PA. :)

Perks
03-14-2010, 12:18 AM
There's something worse than rejection. Desperadium could get involved with the kind of agent who doesn't care if the submission is an incomplete novella or a complete grocery list.

Of course, that agent will be sure to say what such a writer wishes to hear.And pass the manuscript along to an affiliated editing service that will work with her for a small fee...

Hedgetrimmer
03-14-2010, 12:29 AM
This is persuming i don't manage to write it in time, i'm unemloyed , so i like my chances.

This is what jumps out at me more than anything: The fact that you're unemployed. I get the distinct feeling your impatience is because you can't find work and think you'll take advantage of all your spare time to just whip out a book and make a ton of money. Agents have been blogging about the huge spike in queries they've been receiving over the last year or so. I imagine there's a lot of this going around. If I'm mistaken in your case, do ignore. But writing a novel worthy of publication isn't something you do on a whim. If the lack of income is your sole motivation, suck it up and work fast food, cut grass, sweep floors, collect aluminum cans--anything. You'll meet your desired goal a lot faster.

desperadium
03-14-2010, 12:57 AM
I do want to make the most of my spare time, but it has nothing to do with wanting income fast. I do understand why you would think that.

Toothpaste
03-14-2010, 01:03 AM
And again, my words go ignored.

I'm not sure if you understand proper forum etiquette. Possibly because you came to this thread not really interested in hearing an answer to your question you didn't assume people would take the time to actually answer it thoughtfully. But I did. And the least you could do is say, "Thank you." Most people would go further by commenting on what I said, agreeing or disagreeing, explaining their position. Basically taking some time to respect that others had taken time out of their lives to help you for no other reason than to help.

Btw: I'm not the only person you've ignored in this thread, I'm just using me as an example. You seem to think that if there's nothing further to add to a point, or if you're not interested in a point that means you can just ignore it. Maybe it doesn't make practical sense to respond, but it's the polite thing to do. After all none of us need to be offering advice at all, we do it because we sincerely are trying to help.

desperadium
03-14-2010, 01:06 AM
Toothpaste have you not noticed that this thread is 84 posts long? I don't force you to post, say what you want , and leave me to do the same.

Cassiopeia
03-14-2010, 01:08 AM
Toothpaste have you not noticed that this thread is 84 posts long? I don't force you to post, say what you want , and leave me to do the same.And this is why, I shall happily ignore you.

desperadium
03-14-2010, 01:09 AM
Thank god!

Perks
03-14-2010, 01:12 AM
If you're right, go knock out a gaggle of novels, get a fat contract, and point and laugh at our dumb asses still mired in the old-fashioned way.

There are working on 90 posts here and the evolution of the attitudes is pretty understandable, I would think from either side. I can see why you're sore, but you should be able to see why we're grumpy, too.

Toothpaste
03-14-2010, 01:15 AM
Toothpaste have you not noticed that this thread is 84 posts long? I don't force you to post, say what you want , and leave me to do the same.

No you don't force me to post. I chose to because I wanted to help you. But don't forget, you asked for advice, we didn't just randomly decide, "You know who might want to know about subbing to agents? Desperadium." You asked. You started this.

I will not leave you alone to do the same because you owe us a thank you. Because whether you like our advice or not we came here sincerely to help you. I'm not sure why I deserve your little snippy one liners (though I notice in your stats you said you hate everyone so maybe it's just who you are), but I came here open hearted and minded trying to help and in return you get all uppity for me pointing out that maybe a "thank you" would have been nice.

Obviously you have no concept how to interact with people, no respect for anyone (as your approach with agents demonstrates), and you clearly have no clue how far kindness and politeness will take you.

I have not been mean to you in this thread. I have not done anything but be nice and supportive.

If you want to know the truth I friggin did what you want to do. I submitted an incomplete proposal to UK agents and got a full request which I subsequently completed in 3 days. Now I had most of the book finished, just 20K left to write, but girl, I actually know your situation better than anyone. I also got an agent in the UK and was first published in the UK, so maybe I could actually you know have something to say that would be worth your time, and maybe what I know and my efforts are worth a modicum of your respect.

But whatever. You clearly think most people are out to get you. I have been nothing but kind to you in this thread and do not deserve your attitude. Good luck with everything.

desperadium
03-14-2010, 01:19 AM
And its this abuse i have to be thankful for?

Perks
03-14-2010, 01:22 AM
How exactly have you been abused? Everyone has been telling you what we know and offering lots of helpful advice so that you don't make a rookie blunder that will be discouraging at best, or harmful to your career at worst.

You didn't like what was offered, so you got miffed and some of us got miffed back. So what? Abuse? Oh dear.

Toothpaste
03-14-2010, 01:24 AM
Sigh. Yes. I'm abusing you. Yes all my advice in this thread was so that I could hurt you. Yes my post above admonishing you for your poor behaviour in this thread had nothing to do with possibly the attitude you've been giving others.

Girl, you're the one in your own statistics who says she hates everyone and is stubborn. Maybe, just maybe, you aren't entirely the victim here.

But again, I don't have the time for this, I came to help. Obviously I'm not. So I'll leave. I have a novel I'm editing for my agent due Monday. I probably should stop procrastinating.

desperadium
03-14-2010, 01:24 AM
I'm no longer commenting on anything off topic, theres simply no point.

Cassiopeia
03-14-2010, 01:27 AM
And its this abuse i have to be thankful for?
Abuse? Not one single person has been abusive. Far from it. Now if you want abuse, you'll have to excuse me while I go round up some of the boys. :D

Marian Perera
03-14-2010, 01:33 AM
And its this abuse i have to be thankful for?

Well, rather than staying here and being abused, you could have logged off and written a trilogy.

But instead you remain.

suki
03-14-2010, 01:35 AM
Um...people? This is a waste of space. Mac? Care to check the IP Address?

Instead of posting here, go help someone who actually wants to be helped. There are other people who actually want advice. Go critique something, or answer other questions. But this is helpful as repeatedly smacking your head against a wall.

~suki

Perks
03-14-2010, 01:36 AM
I'm no longer commenting on anything off topic, theres simply no point.

Okay, well, completely on-topic then, you asked if it was a good idea to query agents for representation before the manuscript is complete. And the answer, from an assortment of published, contracted, agented, and well-researched writers with decades of combined publishing industry experience, is a resounding 'no'.

desperadium
03-14-2010, 01:40 AM
Post 6.

Perks
03-14-2010, 01:42 AM
Well, hop to it! What're you waitin' around for?

Perks
03-14-2010, 01:43 AM
countdown to threadlock

T-minus some seconds and counting...

scarletpeaches
03-14-2010, 01:48 AM
And its this abuse i have to be thankful for?Oh get the fuck over yourself.

Toothpaste's published. I'd take her advice over your victim mentality any day of the week.

And if you want to know why I'm still posting here, picking on you? It's because when you respect someone as I respect Toothpaste (not least for her exquisite taste in mancandy) you want to see someone defend them.

As for you - you started this thread. You asked for help/advice/opinions/whatever and bitched when you got them. Don't like it? You know where the door is.

CaoPaux
03-14-2010, 01:52 AM
M'kay, that's quite enough.

desperadium, you got what you asked for. Take or or leave it.