Teach You to Talk Funny I Will (Yoda)

Deb Kinnard · Mar 3, 2010

Romance lovers: how do you feel about dialect/brogue in romance novels? The reason I'm asking -- you're supposed to give each character his own "voice." Some characters will talk in a certain manner due to social or economic background, or ethnicity. They naturally have different sounding voices than other characters, yes?

My soon-to-release has Cornish folks and English folks, and they are not the same. They don't speak alike. In some cases, my editor "corrected" the deliberate Cornishness of my ethnic characters. I put it back the way it was. Let's see if she doesn't get out the Nerf Bat, or whether I get away with it.

Question is: would a character talking funny put you off the story? How much dialect can you tolerate before you wallbang the book?

Mr Flibble · Mar 3, 2010

Cornish folks and English folks, and they are not the same.

??? Unless you're writing in the far and very distant past, this sentence confuses me. The Cornish do have a rather noticeable accent though - along with most of the rest of the country

Although it's pretty close to a Devon / Zummerzet accent too.

Anyway, to answer your question I prefer word choice / order to convey accent most of the time. The occasional 'ain't' or whathaveyou is okay, but too much ( or *Shudder* phonetic accent rendering)makes it hard to read and I end up skimming

Deb Kinnard · Mar 3, 2010

I'm with you on the "plenty is too much" aspect. Gabaldon's OUTLANDER almost had me flinging the book, but I did get used to it after a while.

Cornish and English in 1353 didn't even speak the same language. This is where the book in question is set. So, not being able to toss in more than the odd Cornish word, I felt I had to show the Cornish (some of them yeoman-class and some farmers) speaking differently from the nobility. I was aiming above all for as much authenticity as possible. I hope I don't get the Righteous Editorial Hand Slap for this, and also hope I haven't overdone it.

Thoughts?

Bookewyrme · Mar 3, 2010

I actually like reading accents, especially with phonetic spelling etc. Think Terry Pratchett's latest series in the Discworld universe, Wee Free Men, Hat Full of Sky and Wintersmith. The little blue people, the Nac Mac Feegles, all talk with this outlandish pseudo-scottish brogue. One of them is actually unintelligible to outsiders, and Pratchett makes a play on it by having a "glossary" created by someone who was studying the Feegles. It comes out hilarious, and I completely enjoyed reading it.

That being said, if through the entire book, all the characters talked like that, I'd probably scream. But having the contrast, and the misunderstandings that go with it, is a lot fun. Just my 2c. from a reader perspective.

job · Mar 3, 2010

Deb Kinnard said:
how do you feel about dialect/brogue in romance novels?

I like dialect. I want to 'hear' the character voice. And in the British Isles we're not being true to the landscape if we ignore the dialects.

Good for you for doing this. I'll make a point of looking up the book to see how you've gone about it.

job · Mar 3, 2010

Bookewyrme said:
Think Terry Pratchett's latest series in the Discworld universe, Wee Free Men, Hat Full of Sky and Wintersmith.

My daughter , 17, is reading Wintersmith and loves it.

Irysangel · Mar 3, 2010

I hate brogue. Hate hate. I won't stop reading if it's sprinkled occasionally, but if every sentence involves made up words that I have to sound out to figure out and bunches of commas? I can't finish it.

Mr Flibble · Mar 3, 2010

Cornish and English in 1353 didn't even speak the same language. This is where the book is question is set.

Ah, I see. All becomes clear!

So, not being able to toss in more than the odd Cornish word, I felt I had to show the Cornish (some of them yeoman-class and some farmers) speaking differently from the nobility.

I see what you mean - I tend to use word choice / order to show this as I said - it's just as indicative of class. Accent however is slightly different - and phoentics drive me mad!

*RomanceWriter* · Mar 3, 2010

Kresley Cole's Scottish werewolves sound very hawt to me.

jennontheisland · Mar 3, 2010

If I never see another dinna or canna again it will be too soon.

But the odd word, as long as it's not a common word like house or cow or something, does add to the feeling of time and place. And since it's romance, endearments should be suited to the locale and era, IMO.

Jenny · Mar 3, 2010

I agree. The line is drawn at "coo" for "cow". But a little dash of dialect is fun.

And Jenn, I'd never thought of how much I like appropriate endearments, but you're right. They work.

Deb Kinnard · Mar 3, 2010

I'm right there about the Pratchett books. My husband and daughter have most of them including several of the titles you mentioned. I cannot wait to read them--they sound like total fun. I need to get past next month writing-wise, and then I'll be freer to read what I will.

Thanks for opinions on this. I kind of figured I was close to the right track. Hope it is so I do.

(have always loved Yoda)

Stlight · Mar 3, 2010

If your beta doesn't know what the sentences mean the first time he/she reads them, I believe you've gone too far. It's possibly wise to avoid making it difficult for the reader to understand the sentences. For example, and I don't think it's being lazy, if I'm writing a Cockney accent, I'll drop the h(s) and the g(s) and use e for o in for, to, you becomes yer. But then I stop. If you have to puzzle out the words, it's not a fun read anymore.

I think the key thing is that your meaning be clear and easily grasped on the first read through. But this is MHO.

L.Jones · Mar 4, 2010

Get the cadence of the language right and the reader will supply the accent. Yoda is, in fact a great example of that. Anything said after a line and a few words to establish the language cadence and word usage will still sound like Yoda to the reader.

annie
http://ishowerwiththemostinterestingpeople.blogspot.com/

Deb Kinnard · Mar 4, 2010

It wasn't misspellings that my editor changed, it was more word-use. One example was when a Cornish character used "they" in lieu of "them." I've seen this dozens of times as old-Cornish usage and I'm as certain as possible that it's valid. It also adds "flavor" to my yeoman-class characters, and as such I wanted it there. My editor changed it to grammatically correct. I changed it back.

This editor and I have had ongoing dialogue about whether an editor suggests corrections in a manuscript, or rewrites text himself. I hold with the former; the house feels free to rewrite, correct, and add new material if it so chooses. If/when I go with this house again, I'm hoping to have it written into my contract that recommendations can be made in edit, but the final decision on additional or rewritten material is mine.

Irysangel · Mar 4, 2010

Deb Kinnard said:
It wasn't misspellings that my editor changed, it was more word-use. One example was when a Cornish character used "they" in lieu of "them." I've seen this dozens of times as old-Cornish usage and I'm as certain as possible that it's valid. It also adds "flavor" to my yeoman-class characters, and as such I wanted it there. My editor changed it to grammatically correct. I changed it back.

I don't know - I think this is one where I would side with your editor. If I'm the reader and I see the following line:

"I don't want to go with they!"

as opposed to

"I don't want to go with them!"

It would make me think it was a typo. Or am I thinking of this in the incorrect context? Can you provide context?

Mr Flibble · Mar 4, 2010

It wasn't misspellings that my editor changed, it was more word-use. One example was when a Cornish character used "they" in lieu of "them." I've seen this dozens of times as old-Cornish usage and I'm as certain as possible that it's valid. It also adds "flavor" to my yeoman-class characters, and as such I wanted it there. My editor changed it to grammatically correct. I changed it back.

That sounds a great usage to me - *thinks of mate who's from down there Devon way, my lover* To me that would instantly make someone sound west country ( or at least southern yokel hehe) in my head

Satori1977 · Mar 4, 2010

For the most part, I like it too. Makes the book more authentic, and fun. Books like Trainspotting, though, are too much for me to follow. But I don't think that is what you mean. I agree that would help if you could post a line or two from your WIP (if you feel comfortable.)

Stacia Kane · Mar 4, 2010

My Downside books are fairly dialect-heavy in some sections, and no one has ever complained or said they had a hard time following it. It's mostly word choices and order of words, rather than phonetically written, but my personal feeling is that someone smart enough to read and follow a story is probably smart enough to follow dialogue with different idioms than they're used to.

And I've been there with editors rewriting my work, and it's infuriating. I have a book I still get irritated every time I read because I can see the parts that aren't mine, and they stick out like sore thumbs (at least to me). The flow feels wrong.

Deb Kinnard · Mar 5, 2010

Stacia, I was hoping you'd weigh in on this. You live(d) in Cornwall, no?

Here's a sample from the book, where the Cornish usage was corrected and I changed it back (Bethany, the main character, tries to save a woman in labor):

Maude returned with the clean things Bethany had requested. “Oh, lady, lady,” she wailed. “My poor lady—by now t’other one were well born. Popped into the world like a greased piglet from a poke, he did, and a fair one from first brea—”

What do you think? Disruptive, or sufficient to show the difference between servant and noble classes?

K. Taylor · Mar 5, 2010

I have no problem with that example.

Stlight · Mar 5, 2010

Works. Actually clear on the first read through, no problem.

Irysangel · Mar 6, 2010

Ditto.

Deb Kinnard · Mar 6, 2010

THANK you one and all! I probably should've beta'ed these passages before I sold the book, just to see if they worked. But the project wasn't even quite finished when we got to "yes." It sold rather quickly, which is always a good feeling.

Satori1977 · Mar 8, 2010

I think it works quite well. It is easy to follow/read.

Teach You to Talk Funny I Will (Yoda)

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Imagined half of it.

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

She of Many Names

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

New kid, be gentle!

the world is at my command

Who should be writing ...

ideas are floating where they will

She of Many Names

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Listening to the Voices In My Head

Girl Detective

Bah Humbug

ideas are floating where they will

She of Many Names

Listening to the Voices In My Head