M.F.A. in writing

I have always rather suspected that as a credential, it mainly prepares you to teach writing, as opposed to publish writing.

I know several people with an MFA who are all lovely people, and they are adjunct professors (which is like a professor with no job security or benefits) of creative writing, but their pub credits (if any) are all mainly literary magazine stories. Which are very nice, but not exactly career kinds of things, if you define career as that which you rely upon to keep the kids in shoes and the dogs in kibble.

If your career goal is to be a writer of books, you could probably save the tuition money and use it to keep yourself fed while you... wrote a book.

That is of course my opinion, and an actual MFA holder may well disagree.

I imagine it's not necessary, but I know of one agent who (at the time I checked his blog) would not take a manuscript from someone without an MFA (don't ask me who, I've forgotten).

I considered it, but (1) I don't have the time, (2) I don't have the money, and (3) it just seemed like one more thing to make me worry too much and never submit anything.

I've decided to take my chances and do without one. We'll see how it works.

M.F.A. is not a teaching degree. It really isn't. It's a degree that is very much oriented to writing for publication. Most M.F.A. programs concentrate on poetry, small press fiction, or essays, rather than genre fiction.

Those M.F.A.s with tenure tend to be well-published, and rare. M.F.A.s with lectureships or adjunct or visiting appointments are increasingly rare as the job market tightens, and they rarely teach writing poetry or fiction. They teach freshman comp, and similar classes.

Go look at the Chronicle of Higher Education and Higher Education online and peruse with care the job listings.

There are jobs for technical writers, but increasingly they want someone with a degree in technical writing in addition to experience in a specific field.

I've considered an MFA off and on for a few years. I don't think the credential itself is worth much, unless you want to teach. Even for teaching, the MFA is losing its value these days with more schools offer the lucrative (for them) MFA program, and more students go on to complete PhDs in writing. It's increasingly competitive to find a job teaching in a college with an MFA, though it certainly is still valuable for teaching in community programs, adult extension, etc. There's a lot of discussion about this on the Poets and Writers website forum at pw.org, at least there was a couple years ago when I last looked.

So the other reason for pursuing an MFA, which ideally should be your main reason, is for personal benefit. An MFA allows you to devote yourself to improving your craft, putting together a substantial piece, and joining a community of like-minded, academically-oriented writers. I think that has its most value if you can afford to devote your entire life to the MFA, ie, you do the MFA right after undergrad, or you "quit" your regular life and use the MFA as a transition time to focus solely on writing. The intensity of working on writing all the time (except for perhaps teaching or research responsibilities), being able to engage fully in the community, is the real advantage of the course.

I still toy with the idea of doing an MFA if I had the money and could escape from real life for awhile, but I don't think I would do it part-time while working. Maybe it works for some people, but to me it seems like the stress it places on your life is not worth the benefits. There are a number of ways you can commit to finishing a novel and get high-level feedback without the financial and academic obligation of an MFA. A number of schools offer "master class" courses in novel, short story, and poetry writing, where you work together with a gruop of students over perhaps a year, send a large number of pages, get feedback, and keep working. The cost is maybe $1000 (varies by school of course), the course is intense (again, varying by school), but you aren't "stuck" if you find the feedback isn't what you need or the intensity is too much or the teachers are trying to force your story to be something it is not. I've heard a lot about MFA programs teaching students to write the same.

My local university offers courses like that through night school, but I also know that Gotham Writers Workshop (writingclasses.com) also offers the same thing online if you don't have any local options. Another option is to sign up for an online mentorship where you can work with a writer or an editor to improve your novel.

I've taken a number of writing workshops in town or online and they've been a huge help, though I'm beginning to outgrow their benefit (aside from the motivation of deadlines that they provide!) I'd recommend if you are considering an MFA to at least take one or two writing workshops locally or online before you apply (if you haven't already), to see if you benefit from that kind of environment and to decide whether it is something worth investing a large amount of time with.

But if you're looking at the MFA more for career leverage, I think there are much more effective ways to spend your time. Taking some courses in editing or corporate communications will make you much more employable than an MFA. An MFA really is more about the process than the destination.

Once this is finished, 2 faculty members help to research publishing opportunities for your manuscript.

This is usually done through a scholastic or university press.

I have several friends with MFA's and they advised me not to go this route unless I wanted to work in publishing or the entertainment industry, starting on the bottom rung as an assistant to an assistant. They also told me it almost ruined them...they were becoming literary snobs... lol.

If you are interested in this solely to advance your own writing, I would suggest looking up authors you like and researching their educational back ground. I bet a dollar on a donut the majority do not have MFA's degree's. Hell, they are offering them on line now a days. I don't think they are as prestigious as they once seemed...

An MFA that is funded is like a subsidy for your writing. It's time you can spend writing, and working on building your professional reputation as a writer, through publication of short stories. The publication and the reputation can get you teaching gigs. The degree itself is pretty limited as a credential; it might be looked upon favorably in the advertising industry.

An MFA program is also an opportunity to build connections to faculty and visiting writers.

Any MFA you pay for is probably a mistake; unlike other advanced degrees, an MFA doesn't really improve your likely earnings very much. And doing an MFA part-time while working seems to defeat most of the purpose. Evening classes at most universities are rarely considered prestigious and are rarely selective in admissions. If the program is not selective, your classmates will likely be working at a low level and you won't get much out of a workshop with bad writers.

I obviously don't know a lot about the particular program, but it doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

You don't need an M.F.A. to write. But if this is something that interests you and something you' really want to have/explore, I would look into it and see if it's a right fit for you

I know. Totally not helpful!

Gretad08 said:

My interest in this particular program was piqued b/c the graduate thesis consists of writing in whatever genre you prefer out of poetry, fiction, non-fic, and scriptwriting.

Once this is finished, 2 faculty members help to research publishing opportunities for your manuscript.

I thought this was a pretty attractive feature, but who knows.

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That sounds like something that's much worse than having an agent.

If they're doing this, it's because they expect that their graduates probably won't be able to get representation after completing the program.

I don't know much about you or your writing, but I feel confident that you are already at least good enough to not get an agent, without paying for any kind of course.

I have an MFA and I am damn proud of it. It was hard friggin' work and no question the program made me a better writer. That being said, I think there's a place and time in your writing life when it's useful and it's definitely the case that people mature past the need for them. I happened to hit that sweet spot, however, which is why it was such a great experience for me.

If you are talented, hard working, committed to your craft, and confident about the direction you want to go in, you don't need an MFA. But then, heck, you probably don't need any degree because you may well be working in a patent office coming up with mathematical theorems in your spare time.

As for an MFA helping to land you a job? Bwahahahahaha. Uh. No. It won't help you there. Really, it's little more than a license to toil in obscurity.

Still, I will always defend MFA programs or at least mine. I only wish we'd had a football team.

I'll chime in since I'm actually studying to get my MFA right now in a low-residency program. I love it, it has been a tremendous help for me and my writing, but I'm not going to say that every writer should do it.

The MFA is the terminal degree for writers if you want to teach, you don't need the PhD, and as far as I've seen, the PhD isn't that common, but it is gaining ground. A big difference between a traditional MFA program and one like mine is the teaching component. Traditional MFA students teach to subsidize their education, whereas low-residency programs don't have that opportunity. But the MFA is really geared towards helping the writer improve their writing.I've learned a lot since I've started, and been exposed to so many ideas and writing styles, to authors I never would have read if my teacher hadn't assigned me the book (and I've been glad to read everything they've thrown at me so far).

Another big positive is the people you'll meet. I have so many writing friends now it's kind of ridiculous, and everyone is supportive of each other because we're all going through the same thing. Plus the teachers are a big help, very friendly, and very accessible. They teach at my school because they love working with other writers and teaching the craft.

There are some good reasons not to go into an MFA program though, one of which is cost, especially if you're not going to the type of program that offers teaching fellowships or a lot of scholarships. Also, and please don't anyone get offended at this, some people just aren't good at school. Going to college, and especially a graduate program, is a lot of work, and you'll probably have to do some academic papers analyzing writing techniques in novels and short stories as well as work on your own writing.

I would definitely say you should do some research, and talk to some of the teachers or the students to get a feel for what the program is like.

I wrote about my own experiences in my program here and here. Also, I'm a genre writer, not a literary fiction writer, so an MFA isn't just for the Joyce wannabes either, if you were worried about fitting in. Any writer can benefit from the experience, I think.

I have an MFA in dramatic writing from NYU. My original goals were to complete a graduate program in order to teach in the NYC public schools, but I went to Hollywood instead.

I have no regrets over the time and hard work put into my MFA, and I use my skills and knowledge everyday in my livelihood.

But it is by no means necessary to the career of a writer. I had a great experience with brilliant teachers and classmates - all of which provided a nurturing environment and lots of camaraderie. It gave me a heap of confidence and a very large knowledge base in regards to the craft. It also left me with a huge pool in which to network.

However, there are ways to achieve all that without the time or expense.

With the exception of teaching jobs, no profession will show much interest in an MFA. (An MFA is considered a terminal degree and enables the recipient to teach at the university level without needing a higher degree. Actually, more and more universities are showing interest in professional experience and professional affiliations - rather than artists who simply talk about the arts.)

Overall, I would recommend pursuing an MFA for anyone who was doing it for the right reasons.

But thinking it will make you a great writer or push you to the head of a job line are not, IMO, realistic motives.

Good luck!

I'd also suggest perhaps taking just a creative writing course or two and seeing what you think. I took a couple in college (the second one by force...after the first I had no desire anymore to take another). Both were workshop courses and the biggest problem was that they were completely opposite of what I was writing. The first was taught by a literary writer. I write commercial suspense/horror typically and my style isn't literary at all. This teacher hated my work, despite the fact that, if I remember correctly, I was also one of the few of the group to have any success with anything written for class. The second focused mostly on poetry, which I really, really dislike. I don't mind reading it sometimes, but I'm not good with symbolism and I have a very hard time "getting" it (I was actually teased for it during our senior roast ), much less writing it. It's like some big mysterious world that I'm looking at through a foggy window.

The second problem that I had is that I'm not a "rules" writer. I tend to do whatever the hell I want, whether it breaks the rules or not. I figure as long as it works it's fine, and if it doesn't I can try to improve it until it does, or it was at least good practice. I have always, from the time I first started writing, been someone who has learned more from reading than any class in writing, and someone who was encouraged to try new things and experiment in my early classes. This was completely lost in my college courses.

For some people, particularly newer writers, those rules might be important, but it drove me crazy having to follow all of them. I found it very constricting, difficult, frustrating...I could go on. I hated it, basically. It got to a point where I would sit down and just throw something together in an hour to have something to turn in because if I tried to write something for real I would just be frustrated by not being allowed to do it the way I wanted to.

For some people, writing courses are great and helpful. For people like me (unless you're focusing on creativity), it doesn't really work. If you've never taken a class, definitely do it and see whether or not it works for you. Also, be certain that the program your entering focuses on the type of writing you do. If you can't take a class, I'd suggest trying to meet with some of the professors and asking about how the classes are structured, what sort of styles they prefer/teach, and maybe even sit in on one or two to get a feel for it.

I know that many agents and it is mentioned in many books that a MFA from University of Iowa does definitely mean something. I am awaiting to hear about my admission decision. Crossing my fingers.

xXFireSpiritXx said:

I know that many agents and it is mentioned in many books that a MFA from University of Iowa does definitely mean something. I am awaiting to hear about my admission decision. Crossing my fingers.

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The Iowa Writers' Workshop is one of the most prestigious and selective MFA programs in the country. It is a residential program, and most or all students get fellowships that cover full tuition plus a stipend.

To get in there, your submitted manuscript needs to be literary, and it needs to be awesome. It is probably harder to get into Iowa than it is to get representation for a completed manuscript from an agent. Good luck.

I'd say an MFA is a good cred if you're looking to write literary fiction.

Genre, you'd be better off studying (or doing) something that makes you knowledgable about some aspect of the genre. You know, SF writers who have studied physics or biology; mystery writers who've worked in criminal justice or law; military thriller/adventure writers who've served in the military; romance writers who fall in and out of love as readily as Emma's Harriet Smith.

Just want to jump in and say an M.F.A. would not prepare anyone in any way for a career as a technical writer. Increasingly nowadays, you need a degree or diploma in technical writing, or sometimes only in English, to begin such a career. I was lucky that, in the good old days, what you needed was a B.A. in English, and that was what I had.

I'll chime in for the benefit of GB residents.
Here the MFA is known as MA in Creative Writing. It's offered by several universities and it's usually hard to get in; I was accepted by dint of my published works by the UNiversity of Sussex, Brighton.

It's quite expensive, though there are bursaries and grants to help with the costs. I was too late applying to get any of these grants.

The first term I was in a bigger group of around 20 people, and we studied Victorian literature with Barbara Hardy, who is quite a well known academic on the subject. She was fabulous, and the group worked well together. We had to read several novels and poems and I found the pressure of "having" to finish a novel in order to take part in the discussions quite taxing; I was working part time at the same time and also had to look after my disabled husband. However, it was only one day every fortnight that you had to be in school.

The second term was a Masterclass taught by Irving Weinman, an American author, and again, he was fabulous. he gave excellent feedback on my work and really helped with my writing and encouraged me, and everyone. The feedback from the other students was also great.

By this time, the group had split into fulltimers and parttimers. The fulltimers were attending other classes, once a week. My part time class was wonderful. We welded into a really close unit.

The third term we did not have to come in to school at all. We had to start work on our dissertation, and only met occasionally.

The second year I had to defer the course for personal as well as financial reasons. I was sorry to miss the company but I had no choice, really. It also looks like I'll have to drop out completely. I was hoping to return coming September but I won't be able to. As the course is shutting down this is my last chance so it loos like I've lost the £2500 I spent last year on the course.

Nevertheless, I don't regret it in the least. It was a wonderful experience, well worth every penny.

scheherazade said:

So the other reason for pursuing an MFA, which ideally should be your main reason, is for personal benefit. An MFA allows you to devote yourself to improving your craft, putting together a substantial piece, and joining a community of like-minded, academically-oriented writers.
.

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This was exactly my experience.

Sevvy said:

Another big positive is the people you'll meet. I have so many writing friends now it's kind of ridiculous, and everyone is supportive of each other because we're all going through the same thing. Plus the teachers are a big help, very friendly, and very accessible. They teach at my school because they love working with other writers and teaching the craft.

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Yes. I live a rather hermetic, isolated life and it was great to be part of this writing group. Though I don't doubt I could have found other, cheaper groups, on account of the selection process this group was on the whole very talented. I am sure I'll see at least two of my classmates in print one day. Everyone was so supportive and just plain nice! We still meet for "socials", and I miss them all.

kaitie said:

I don't mind reading it sometimes, but I'm not good with symbolism and I have a very hard time "getting" it (I was actually teased for it during our senior roast ), much less writing it. It's like some big mysterious world that I'm looking at through a foggy window.
.

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Me too!

One of the reasons I don't mind not finishing the course is that I finally faced the truth that I am not an academic. I found the literary assessment of novels and poetry very difficult and not at all my thing, and Barbara, brilliant herself, had very high standards as to the diseection of the literature we studied. This was all right during the group sessions but we also had to write a critical essay and I didn't do too well on that. I did much better on the Masterclass, which was practical and just up my alley.

I applied to an MFA program just after I finished my undergraduate degree, which I did part-time at night while working. The day before I started my final class for my undergraduate degree, I was laid off from a job I loved, and I was sort of lost and looking for something, and going back to school full-time, and being able to spend so much time concentrating on my writing, seemed like a great idea.

By the time I heard back from them, I had another fantastic job and wasn't really interesting in going anymore, which was fortunate as I wasn't accepted!

I know why I wasn't accepted--my writing sample wasn't really that accomplished, and I hadn't yet been published. My work has improved tremendously since then, and I think I could get in now if I wanted to apply. But since I've managed to improve on my own, I don't know what it would accomplish for me.

That being said, if you can get in, and you want to commit to the program, I can't imagine anything more fun than having that opportunity to really concentrate on your writing and getting that great help and feedback.

I have nothing. Well, high school English. Guess I can't get myself published.

Phaeal said:

Genre, you'd be better off studying (or doing) something that makes you knowledgable about some aspect of the genre. You know, SF writers who have studied physics or biology; mystery writers who've worked in criminal justice or law; military thriller/adventure writers who've served in the military; romance writers who fall in and out of love as readily as Emma's Harriet Smith.

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I write SF and I have a degree in biology, but that was more of an accident than a conscious choice. A great accident though, in retrospect.

But since we're talking about genre and MFA, I guess Seton Hill University's MFA program is specifically geared to genre writers. I have no idea how it is because I don't go there though.