Final Fantasy...Dead?

So, they finally do justice to their name?

I hope they finally stick a fork in this series. I'm sick of the linear nature of the games, the repetitiveness, the J-pop, and the irritating stories/characters.

Seriously, I haven't really given a crap about final fantasy since FF7, and even that one was overrated. The best game square/enix ever pulled off was ChronoTrigger for the SNES, and that one was awesome specifically because it was somewhat non-linear, and had an actual kick ass storyline.

Interesting. I'd heard that XIII was intended to be the last traditional game of the series, but I hadn't heard that they were considered ending it entirely. Speaking as apparently the only fan here, it's both good and bad. Companies have to always be evolving and adapting and SE's proven itself quite good at that. I'm sure Final Fantasy will always exist in some form or another and it's not like the games themselves will disappear.

As for the Final Fantasy franchise name, its origins go all the way back to the original game and company, Square. They were on the brink of ruin when Hironobu Sakaguchi, inspired by the success of Enix's original Dragon Warrior, developed the game that may well have been the last game for the company. Hence the name, Final Fantasy. It wasn't originally intended to be a series, it was their last ditch effort to turn a profit. And it did, so they made another. And another. And now they're the top RPG developer in terms of commercial sales.

We could never be so lucky.

I highly doubt they'd kill off the "franchise." It doesn't really matter that much. As LOG stated, the games tend to be different enough that they are linked largely in name and a few common characteristics (Hey look! A character named Cid) only. I just need somebody to give me another fun RPG. I burned out on Dragon Age somewhat quickly.

I'll be sad if that does happen. People bitch about the linearity of jrpgs, but they don't have a problem with how lifeless and bland most "open worlds" are. They bitch about the same stereotypical characters, but at least those stereotypes have some genuine emotion and, well, personality to them. Fallout 3? Boring, poorly developed characters. Oblivion? Lucien had promise. That's about it. Dragon Age had good characterization, I'll give it that, but the core gameplay, enter dungeon, kill kill kill, enter next dungeon, kill kill kill, was just as repetitive as anything I've seen from JRPGs. And unlike Dragon Age's LOTR rip off story, I was actually interested in how FF X (the only FF I've finished) would turn out.

I think there is something special about the final fantasy games - a kind of self full-filling prophecy, where because people see the series as Square Enix's flagship franchise, SE in turn invests a TON of time and money into each next installment (that they otherwise might not have) to create a truly definitive experience (epic quest, good characterization, great music, great graphics, etc.)

I admit, I did like Oblivion, but you're right, the characters weren't remarkable in any way because it was so quest driven. With Dragon Age it got sort of predictable for such an "open world." Right from the jump you're told what your primary objectives are and there's not much in the way of "exploration" at all. The different choices you can make are cool, but none of them really feel all THAT significant. Once I beat the game I found myself mostly unexcited about playing through it again with a different type of character. I liked Mass Effect a lot more. Final Fantasy stories are linear but I like the broader feel of it.

That said, again, I really doubt the Final Fantasy series is going anywhere in any significant manner.

Mr. Anonymous said:

I'll be sad if that does happen. People bitch about the linearity of jrpgs, but they don't have a problem with how lifeless and bland most "open worlds" are. They bitch about the same stereotypical characters, but at least those stereotypes have some genuine emotion and, well, personality to them. Fallout 3? Boring, poorly developed characters. Oblivion? Lucien had promise. That's about it. Dragon Age had good characterization, I'll give it that, but the core gameplay, enter dungeon, kill kill kill, enter next dungeon, kill kill kill, was just as repetitive as anything I've seen from JRPGs. And unlike Dragon Age's LOTR rip off story, I was actually interested in how FF X (the only FF I've finished) would turn out.

I think there is something special about the final fantasy games - a kind of self full-filling prophecy, where because people see the series as Square Enix's flagship franchise, SE in turn invests a TON of time and money into each next installment (that they otherwise might not have) to create a truly definitive experience (epic quest, good characterization, great music, great graphics, etc.)

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Bethesda's an easy target. Talk about a punching bag.

I admit, I did like Oblivion, but you're right, the characters weren't remarkable in any way because it was so quest driven. With Dragon Age it got sort of predictable for such an "open world." Right from the jump you're told what your primary objectives are and there's not much in the way of "exploration" at all. The different choices you can make are cool, but none of them really feel all THAT significant. Once I beat the game I found myself mostly unexcited about playing through it again with a different type of character. I liked Mass Effect a lot more. Final Fantasy stories are linear but I like the broader feel of it.

I liked Oblivion too, when I first played it. Beat all the guilds, did the main quest, and then it dawned on me, how shallow the experience had been in many ways. I'm not saying it's a bad game. But I don't think it is a very good RPG, or at least, it's not my kind of RPG. I agree about Dragon Age. Only a handful of big decisions, really, and I wasn't tempted enough to see what would have happened to load up a save file, much less start a completely new game. I'd have to disagree about ME though, but to each his own. I agree about final fantasy though, FF X just felt like a real epic to me. So I really enjoyed it, in spite of the fact that I don't really like turn based combat OR random battles OR really hard boss fights OR pain-in-the-ass end-game dungeons...

SPMiller said:

Bethesda's an easy target. Talk about a punching bag.

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Deus Ex - (IMO) un-engaging characters, and I put the game down because I didn't find the story interesting enough to slog through.

Mass Effect 1 - Some of the worst pacing I've ever seen in a story, boring characters (aside from wrex), uninteresting worlds, cookie cutter side quests that the game would've done better without. The conversation with sovereign was the only truly memorable part for me.

Mass Effect 2 - BETTER, but a lot of quests are still very predictable (go here, kill all enemies, move on, kill all enemies, fight boss, mission over.) Overarching story is okay, would be meh if not for the moments of inspiration here and there. Characters are more interesting from the first one, but that's not saying much.

That said, I'm playing a JRPG called Persona 4 that has more character development for one supporting character halfway through the game than Mass Effect 2 had for all of its characters combined... Yeah.

Borderlands - It had a story?

Demon Souls - I know this one didn't.

Never Winter Knights 2 - Story had promise but didn't deliver. Cast had promise but didn't deliver. Ending was kinda memorable.

Mask of the betrayer - couldn't get past that mage like an hour into the game that confronts you. Fuck you Obsidian.

Fable 1/2 - Don't get me started.

Two Worlds - lol.

Risen - Played the demo. Was not inspired to buy the game.

Gothic games - suffer from the same problem The Elder Scrolls games do.

AND ALL OF THESE GAMES HAVE STEREOTYPICAL CHARACTERS. From Jack of Blades, who is evil because that's the thing to be, to the handsome but untrustworthy rogue/alcoholic dwarf in NWN 2, to the crazy, twisted bitch who likes to blow shit up (ME 2, Jack) to the strict, by the books, militarily efficient gal (Miranda, ME - 2), to the kid on a quest to become an adult (Me - Tali), etc etc etc.

The last western rpgs that I played and really enjoyed were kotor 1 + 2, and The Witcher (which I've never actually gotten to finish... Computer is shit for games...) And even those have their fair share of problems.

My computer has problems playing a lot of older games, for whatever reason, so I haven't had a chance to check out Fallout 1/2, System Shock, BG 1/2, etc. Did play a bit of Planetscape Torment. Original premise, great characterization, a little slow though. Ended up stopping because the game would freeze whenever someone would cast a spell.

I thought Kotor had probably the best storyline out of any RPG's I've played, although the second game felt a bit "unfinished", like the developers ran out of time to make the game and had to hustle to wrap it up.

I've played most of the Final Fantasy games, and here's my list of gripes.

1. Most of the starting characters are the same or similar.
2. The lack of the ability to really make choices/influence the story. Basically they're like being stuck on a train, it can't really leave the track to explore different possibilities. Chronotrigger was the exception to this rule.
3. The J-pop.
4. The villains/characters that cause 13 year old girls to create tons of shitty slash fics over them (sepiroth).
5. The long as fuck combat animations. Yes I just summoned bahumut, let me go take a shit and it'll still be going through the summoning sequence by the time I come back.
6. Boring turn based combat systems that lack depth, and that fail to promote any form of creativity.

Here is why Chronotrigger is the best J-RPG ever made.

1. Multiple endings, and play decisions influenced game outcomes(e.g. do you recruit Magus etc.). The game was still semi-linear, but it had "switches" in the tracks. There were points where you could change the way the game ended. In a lot of ways it was the precursor to all of your games that are like KOTOR or Mass Effect, where the decisions made at different stages of the game effect the outcome.
2. Kick ass soundtrack that has yet to be matched even 15 years later.
3. A turn based combat system that promoted experimentation with different party combinations. Depending on the characters you picked, you could open up new attacks that used several characters in conjunction. It also had a slightly more real time feel to it, and of course no irritating random battles.
4. A truly original storyline.
5. A J-RPG that actually really pushed the frontiers of RPG games at the time.Honestly after FF7, all the following FF games were pretty similar to it, and all FF7 really did that was important was bring RPG's to the masses because it was huge flagship game that came out right after people got done playing the awesomeness that was Chronotrigger.

I'm revoking your RPG-Fan card, Annon, till you play Planescape Torment.

Zoombie -



B-b-but, it crashes every time there's a spell on the screen.


Dommo -

I thought Kotor had probably the best storyline out of any RPG's I've played, although the second game felt a bit "unfinished", like the developers ran out of time to make the game and had to hustle to wrap it up.

Agreed. And the second one was rushed out for the holidays. Obsidian wanted more time, but Lucasarts didn't give a crap, iirc.

5. The long as fuck combat animations. Yes I just summoned bahumut, let me go take a shit and it'll still be going through the summoning sequence by the time I come back.

lol. True.

I actually bought Chronotrigger for my DS but it turned out to be a defective copy. I got my money back but never got around to getting a new one... Maybe I'll give it a shot.

Try disabling hardware acceleraton, that's what I did.

LOG said:

See this for why you're wrong.

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You misunderstand. I meant MY computer, not computers in general. xP

Zoombie - Tried that. It helped with the spells but slowed the game's framerate down to a crawl. ??? lol.

I don't care if they stop releasing new final fantasies, but I hope they don't put an end to the spinoffs. They still need to do that FF7 remake that people have been begging for

JRPG = Japanese, WRPG = Western, TRPG = Tabletop

I like JRPGs more because most WRPGs are just ripoffs of D&D or some other ultra-mainstream TRPG. (Morrowind feels like some of the earlier TRPGs that were D&D-alikes with "clever" mild changes to the races. Fallout is literally just Alternity, TSR's sci-fi RPG mostly based on D&D. Fable is just D&D with werewolves called "balvorines." Neverwinter Nights literally is D&D. KOTOR is just the Wizards of the Coast Star Wars RPG, which uses the D&D rules set; it's also pretty much Neverwinter Nights in space. Mass Effect seems a bit original, but I've barely seen it. Dragon Age is so much like D&D that the tabletop RPG version is actually trying to compete with D&D now to be "introductory D&D.")

I like Final Fantasy games because with a few exceptions, (FF1, which was one of the most blatant and quasi-legal D&D ripoffs ever, and FF9, which paid homage to D&D), it's not like D&D. The characters are superhuman, with colorful attacks and colorful appearances. (I literally mean "colorful." D&D is just shades of brown, black, and metal until 4e.) The combats look cool, the plots are railroady but usually interesting, and the music was awesome until Final Fantasy 9 and future games. (FF12 was okay, but sounded like Star Wars.)

Planescape is DnD, but it subvertes all the tropes and is delightfully dark, macabre and strange.

Dommo said:

I hope they finally stick a fork in this series. I'm sick of the linear nature of the games, the repetitiveness, the J-pop, and the irritating stories/characters.

Seriously, I haven't really given a crap about final fantasy since FF7, and even that one was overrated. The best game square/enix ever pulled off was ChronoTrigger for the SNES, and that one was awesome specifically because it was somewhat non-linear, and had an actual kick ass storyline.

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Ah yes FF, the only game series that regularly sparks flame-wars that can make you think you're reading a topic about holocaust denial or Palestine.
Anyway, chalk me up as another one who'll be sad to see the series go (and doesn't really believe it will). Many people go on and on about how nonlinear games are the bees knees and linear games are teh fail, but honestly? Most so-called non-linear games are pseudo-linear at most and bland as cardboard oatmeal. Or about the FF series being not continuous. Personally, i much prefer a game series that offers the same gameplay in each iteration and has different settings than one that tries to suck the last drop of blood out of some worldbuilding that was done way back when, while radically altering the actual game part you get with each new number.
When i buy a FF game i know what to expect, and i get exactly that. A JPRG with always the same basic combat system, minor alterations excepted (and FFXII. let's not talk about FFXII) and a storyline of cinematic quality. Sure, it might not be as original or creative as Deus Ex, but hey, Romeo and Juliet was already cliché when Shakespeare wrote it, and it's still a really great play. Sometimes, a whole bunch of awesome execution can make up for a lack in creativity and originality.

Dommo said:

I thought Kotor had probably the best storyline out of any RPG's I've played, although the second game felt a bit "unfinished", like the developers ran out of time to make the game and had to hustle to wrap it up.

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That might be because that's exactly what happened. Basically, the whole last fifth or so of the game was left unfinished. (and one major subplot. Ever wonder where those assassin bots came from?) A lot of the actual data is already in the game, dialogs, areas, scripts. They just didn't get finished in time. And that looong speech thingy Traya gives at the end? You were supposed to get that as a proper epilogue video, not as an audiobook.

Zoombie said:

I'm revoking your RPG-Fan card, Annon, till you play Planescape Torment.

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Heh. I've safely hidden mine away so i can tell you: i hate that game. Yeah, the story was good, even groundbreaking for its time. But the gameplay was horrific. It's like the devs had this awesome story and spent all their time on scripting that, and then just bolted on some AD&D game mechanics as an afterthought. In some games, i don't mind that. Imo, and i'm with a pretty small minority there, the Xenosaga series was awesome. Make that AWESOME. Crying shame the first had mediocre to bad gameplay (the second is better and the third great), but its story kept me on the hook. And i'm still pissed the series got cut in half after lackluster sales from 1&2. Though a lot of that was caused by bad marketing decisions. Anyway, Xenosaga 1: game with an awesome story and bad gameplay that kept me hooked. But PS:T? I barely made it through once.

On one more note, i hadn't heard yet that Squeenix bought Eidos. Oh boy, if they manage to merge the awesomeness both companies have produced over the years into the same games (and forget Daikatana and FFX-2 ever happened) this is going to be something like the polar opposite of Atarigrames.

You are dead to me!

Chrono Trigger did everything right.
It even had time travel! Time travel DONE RIGHT!

Phantasy Star online was good too, for hack and slash folks.

Dommo said:

I thought Kotor had probably the best storyline out of any RPG's I've played, although the second game felt a bit "unfinished", like the developers ran out of time to make the game and had to hustle to wrap it up.

I've played most of the Final Fantasy games, and here's my list of gripes.

1. Most of the starting characters are the same or similar.
2. The lack of the ability to really make choices/influence the story. Basically they're like being stuck on a train, it can't really leave the track to explore different possibilities. Chronotrigger was the exception to this rule.
3. The J-pop.
4. The villains/characters that cause 13 year old girls to create tons of shitty slash fics over them (sepiroth).
5. The long as fuck combat animations. Yes I just summoned bahumut, let me go take a shit and it'll still be going through the summoning sequence by the time I come back.
6. Boring turn based combat systems that lack depth, and that fail to promote any form of creativity.

Here is why Chronotrigger is the best J-RPG ever made.

1. Multiple endings, and play decisions influenced game outcomes(e.g. do you recruit Magus etc.). The game was still semi-linear, but it had "switches" in the tracks. There were points where you could change the way the game ended. In a lot of ways it was the precursor to all of your games that are like KOTOR or Mass Effect, where the decisions made at different stages of the game effect the outcome.
2. Kick ass soundtrack that has yet to be matched even 15 years later.
3. A turn based combat system that promoted experimentation with different party combinations. Depending on the characters you picked, you could open up new attacks that used several characters in conjunction. It also had a slightly more real time feel to it, and of course no irritating random battles.
4. A truly original storyline.
5. A J-RPG that actually really pushed the frontiers of RPG games at the time.Honestly after FF7, all the following FF games were pretty similar to it, and all FF7 really did that was important was bring RPG's to the masses because it was huge flagship game that came out right after people got done playing the awesomeness that was Chronotrigger.

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Art_Sempai said:

Chrono Trigger did everything right.
It even had time travel! Time travel DONE RIGHT!

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Did you play Chrono Cross? No time travel, but alternate worlds. Also an awesome game.

Chrono Cross was good, own it.
I hate the fact that it spit in the face of Chrono Trigger.(What his father did to them.)

The DS Chrono Trigger has a new ending connecting the games. (Manus is Manus.)

Mr. Anonymous said:

Mask of the betrayer - couldn't get past that mage like an hour into the game that confronts you. Fuck you Obsidian.

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Mad cuz bad?

Hint: don't play fighters.

Also, Dommo's right: Chrono Trigger did Final Fantasy better than Final Fantasy. There's no reason to play any other JRPG after playing Chrono Trigger once. You've seen everything there is to see. At least western RPGs have some semblance of originality and variety. Sheesh.