About payment

What exactly do you want feedback on?

Well, I agree that complaining about writing for peanuts is a good thing, and not enough complaints from well-published writers is precisely why so many writers now have to write for peanuts, but what can you do?

Jamesaritchie said:

Well, I agree that complaining about writing for peanuts is a good thing, and not enough complaints from well-published writers is precisely why so many writers now have to write for peanuts, but what can you do?

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I disagree. Complaining is a waste of time. If you disagree with working for peanuts, just don't. No one HAS to work for those rates.

I agree with WildScribe. Just bypass the lousy offers, don't waste your time.

As a moderator for the Paying Markets forum here, I wanted to chime in. The problem with the complaints about low-paying markets occurred when people started complaining rudely, which reflected negatively on the AW community. Believe me, it got ugly -- after years of constructive criticism, it went downhill to rude criticism... fast!

It's not so much that we condone low-paying markets, but at the time she posted that thread AW itself was paying about $5 per piece, so Jenna felt that complaints over similar paying markets reflected on AW's ability to pay a meager fee, though it was a quality market.

We do delete overly questionable markets, and there's even a thread there warning about some content sites. However, we don't want to completely discourage the occasional quality market that has a good heart but perhaps can't pay a lot quite yet.

I will comb through the threads this week and see if there are some that might be questionable enough to cull.

It's not that we don't want complaints at all -- a healthy, helpful, constructive complaint or question in good taste is fine. The ugly, offensive, unhelpful complaints are what we're discouraging.

Hope that helps clarify the stance a bit!

Over on my site I used to limit the paid job listings to $10 or more... until someone emailed me and told me how much the $2/$3/$4 article jobs had meant to her family.

I got off my high horse in a hurry. Although I work for much more I have no right to say what anyone should earn nor, imo, to complain about the low paying gigs.

And when a website like AW decides in can pay, no matter how little, we should all be grateful... geeze.

okay, off my soap box now.

I wouldn't say that $1 a word is the gold standard - I freelance for a major newspaper and the fee is $50 a piece for briefs, no matter the word count. I usually write 3 graphs for the briefs.

You have some pretty rude viewpoints yourself.

Writing is a lot like acting in that while it is a professional job and you should be paid professional rates, there is always someone willing to step up and do the job if you don't want it.

You never, ever work for less than $1 a word? Is that what you're saying? Because I think I have seen a lot of questions on here about the craft from you, which indicates that you're not exactly that far up the ladder yet. I'm not saying that you don't have the skill, but I think you're probably new to this, and you're going to have to get your feet wet just like the rest of us did.

I get paid about .10 a word from my favorite magazine editor. That also adds up to about $50 an hour, since I am a fast writer and a pretty good interviewer. NOT exactly a wage to complain about. Is this the best rate? Of course not, I often work for much more, but it is, again, nothing to spit at. If you don't like low wages, avoid them, but please do get off your high horse and stop spitting at us and the markets who hire us.

I used to see these kinds of discussions over at artist/craftsman boards all the time. I always find them interesting and in the end, I think it all comes down to overhead and as usual how bad you need the money.

If I can do the same job you can but have lower overhead than my price should be lower. That's how most supply / demand businesses work in my experience. My mortgage is lower than say it would be in a different part of the country and I choose to live a simple life (i.e. no boats, no expensive cars, no $300 shoes, etc.) meaning that what I need to make a living is much lower than someone else who chooses to have those things.

I'm choosy these days and can afford to be, however; there were times in my life where a measly $5 meant I could pay all my bills that month. I'm sure in this economy that's true for many folks. Also, lets face it, publishers of all kinds are fighting to get read and find advertising in these tough times - meaning they're cutting budgets too.

I don't think comparing sweat shops to writing for less than $1 a word is at all fair. I agree with the fact that you can choose what you want to work for, unlike many sweat shop workers. Also you can choose to not patronize the groups that pay less than fair wages in your mind just like you hopefully boycott companies using sweatshop labor.

In the end, there won't ever be a satisfactory solution to this simply because some people will always be willing to work for less.

I can see both sides of the argument. First of all if all professional writers refused to write for less than a decent/fair rate than companies would have to pay decent/fair rates. However, until all writers did this and let’s be honest, that isn’t going to happen and a lot of writers would not be able to pay their bills from writing alone, myself included. I personally don’t like taking the lower jobs and avoid them whenever possible. I refuse to write for clients that offer extremely low rates, but sometimes have to accept a few of the insultingly low rates in order to pay the bills. In the end, what matters is that I’m able to pay my bills. If I have to write more articles than I would if I had higher paying clients, than that’s a choice I make because in the end, I want to be able to support my family from writing. I don’t want to have to get a part-time job. It also serves as a reminder that if I want higher paying writing jobs than I have to get off my rear and work harder, send out more query letters and get more magazine gigs and business writing.

However, I’m not going to shoot down others who are accepting the lower paying jobs, personally I don’t like it and detest when I do so myself but if it means making the rent or not, then I’ll take it. Especially in this economy, every penny adds up and who am I to tell someone who for all I know is getting their feet wet that they shouldn’t accept a paying job because the pay is too low. Some of those very same, insultingly low paying jobs helped make me a better writer and land gigs that pay much higher. I also would never insult a moderator and tell her how she should run her board. I see places like AW not as a place where I’m going to make a living. Instead I see it as a as a source experts use and would be honored to write for them and if they offered me $5 at all, I would chalk that up to a reward for doing something right, that I have merit for other writers to listen to. There is a difference between sites like AW and content sites. I find the rates offered at DS to be fair for the type of work where as a site such as Associated Content too low and have since decided not to write for them. I have heard AC has upped their pay some and while I might have only received $4 - $10 for an article upfront, I’m still receiving monthly revenue from that to me is similar to royalties. But again, who am I to tell someone they shouldn’t do that or deny them pay? I remember when I started out I paid my bills on a lot of $2, $4, and $5 articles and the experience I learned from them was invaluable. Right now I’m writing more and more $3 articles for DS because they take next to no time at all. $3 isn’t much and I was making that when I started out but when you look at the breakdown and the time involved I’m making more writing those than I am the $15 and $20 articles although it takes a lot more of them to add up and pay the bills.

Just my $0.02 for free.

SS

If you happen to be on LinkedIn and are a member of the Freelance Writer's Connection, there's a great discussion about this very same thing happening right now.

Lots of folks commenting on magazines closing up shop, down readership, and lower pay rates. It's a good discussion, if anyone else happens to be there.

Just to add to the equation: sometimes a low paying (print) gig has a nice clip that makes up for the pay. I'm still building my reputation, so I'm tickled to work for a nice glossy regional that pays about 15 cents a word.

Well. For starters, $1 is not the standard. Nobody has come up with a professional standard price to be paid as far as I know. $1 is a great rate.

That said, working for peanuts is a matter of perspective. New writers are happy to make .10 cents a word and many of the more experienced writers would be insulted to get paid that. Honestly, not to be rude, but you don't deserve great pay if you are new and need to learn. You need to earn your stripes, learn the craft and move up the ladder, just like anywhere else.

The truth of the matter is, there are plenty of high-paying gigs out there. You can get them. You have to be willing to put in a lot of hours looking for them. They are hard to find and much of the time a pro writer spends on their craft is that of finding those markets. It is a major part of the job and requires great research skills, tenacity and patience. The writing is actually the easy part.

To do this, you need to form relationships with editors. Spend time networking. Learn about social media and utilize it. Make no mistake--this is not all about writing--it is about writing and marketing yourself. Not all writers know how to do that well, but it is a skill they should spend time learning if they don't know how to do it.

In my opinion it is a waste of time to complain about low-paying markets. They aren't going to go away...they are part of the deal. You don't have to like it, but you don't have to write for them either. And you shouldn't slam those who do. It is more constructive to spend time cultivating your own gigs than ranking on people for theirs. To each his own. As for the comment about writers sites paying poorly...true...but so what? These people aren't in it to be rich. I don't pen my freelance blog to make a pile of dough...I do it to help other writers get ahead. Sometimes it is just that simple.

And guess what? Even though I make my money writing full-time--I still write for free here and there. If the cause is right, or if the gig is good enough. Sometimes it's about getting your name out there--or helping someone out. At least, that is my take on it. Everyone is entitled to their own.

I make a living as a freelance writer. A good one too. And I find great gigs. But I spend the time looking. Anyone can do it if they are willing to put in the effort. It's hard. It takes time. But it can be done.

Vincenza-
Just to clarify, 33 cents a word, on an 1800-word story that takes me 6 hours to write, which is approx. $600, so that's $100 an hour, is a poor pay rate? I think to determine subjectively what could be considered "poor rates" based merely on the rate per word is going to lead to some really faulty conclusions. And, well, when you run a top-ranked writing website that publishes job leads, you can respond rudely to any magazines who dares to share their job listings offering writers rates approaching $100/hour.

I think Temlyn's point is pretty clear -- if you don't like the rates, don't apply for the job. There's no reason whatsoever to be rude or insulting to the people posting the ads.

If I walk into a store that sells $300 shoes (because I like that example) but I can only afford $20 shoes, I don't insult the clerks that they dare ask for $300 for their shoes. I just drool a bit and then go to Payless.

I'm not really understanding your original question of what you wanted feedback on. Instead, it seemed like you just wanted to complain. And why? If you're finding work that pays $1/word, go for it and be grateful. Leave the other jobs to those willing to work for less and be done with it.

Dawn