Question about Getting Permission to Quote

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Mom

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I'm newer to the whole nonfiction writing game. I've started working on a book that I intend to self-publish. It's about a specific, and rare(ish) medical condition. It's from a patients perspective and it intended to be a resource to other folks suffering from the same condition. (Of which, there are no such books right now...)

While the gist of the book is more about personal experience and what I've learned along the way, I wanted to include some statistics and medical information as well.

OK... enough (pointless, probably) background to my question...

If I quote a study, from say JAMA, is it OK to quote them and cite my source... or do I need to also get permission from JAMA to reprint their words (even if it's just a very short quote)?


Thanks for helping a newbie out.
 

underthecity

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I would say that if you're quoting them directly, you need to have their permission to do so. There are copyright issues involved there.

However, if you want to paraphrase JAMA, you can just cite your source.

Can I try to talk you out of self publishing and consider commercial publication? There are many good reasons for doing so. While there are reasons for self publication for nonfiction, in many authors' opinions, you should try the commercial route first. Plus, you'll reach more of your intended audience that way.
 
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Mom

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I would say that if you're quoting them directly, you need to have their permission to do so. There are copyright issues involved there.

However, if you want to paraphrase JAMA, you can just cite your source.

Can I try to talk you out of self publishing and consider commercial publication? There are many good reasons for doing so. While there are reasons for self publication for nonfiction, in many authors' opinions, you should try the commercial route first. Plus, you'll reach more of your intended audience that way.


Thanks for that! I think in many cases I should be able to paraphrase and cite the source. I want this book to be useful to lay-people so directly quoting guys in white lab coats may not be the best idea anyway. Plus, not having to get permissions would save a lot of headaches.

I've only just started this project. My initial thought was to self-publish because I believe the audience for this would be very small. (Very interested, hopefully, as no such resource exists on the market right now... but, still, a small audience.) For that reason, I never thought a traditional publisher would be interested. Plus, I'm not a medical professional... just someone with personal experience. I thought that would likely be a turn-off to traditional publishers as well.

Thanks for the thought to consider traditional publishing, though. It honestly never occurred to me, and I'll keep it in mind.
 

Judg

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No, you can quote directly for short passages. It's called "fair use". If you're quoting a page or two at a time, that's a different story. Make sure it's clear that it's a quotation and indicate the sources and there's no problem at all. Mind you, if half the book is quotations, that would probably be going beyond fair use provisions. ;)

If you couldn't quote directly without getting permission, the entire academic publishing industry would cease to exist. As would book reviews, political commentary, and a number of others. I can't tell you exactly where the lines are (I don't write non-fiction), but a little research should clear that up quickly. (I do proofreading for my historian hubby, and trust me, they don't ask permission, and nobody expects them to.)

Musical lyrics are quite different, mind you, but I don't think that's going to be an issue with your book.
 

Mom

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No, you can quote directly for short passages. It's called "fair use". If you're quoting a page or two at a time, that's a different story. Make sure it's clear that it's a quotation and indicate the sources and there's no problem at all. Mind you, if half the book is quotations, that would probably be going beyond fair use provisions. ;)

If you couldn't quote directly without getting permission, the entire academic publishing industry would cease to exist. As would book reviews, political commentary, and a number of others. I can't tell you exactly where the lines are (I don't write non-fiction), but a little research should clear that up quickly. (I do proofreading for my historian hubby, and trust me, they don't ask permission, and nobody expects them to.)

Musical lyrics are quite different, mind you, but I don't think that's going to be an issue with your book.

Wow, ok! Thanks for that clarification. Are there any guidelines for the limits of "fair use"? If I decide to quote directly at all, I can't imagine quoting more than 100 words at a time. More like, the quotes would be around 25 words.

Another question alone these lines... there are a few online forums were folks with this condition write about their experiences and post questions. These forums are typically semi-anonymous (like the water cooler here) and people use screen names. Many post in the forum, then disappear and there is no way to contact them. Can I quote from personal experience posted by folks in these forums without permission? Any quotations would be carefully selected so there wouldn't be any personally identifying information, of course. If it is OK to use such quotations...do those words belong to the poster or to the forum in which they posted? (What do I cite, in other words.) Perhaps this is an area I should avoid all together... but if I could quote snippets from actual patients, that may really enhance the book.
 
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Judg

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I hope somebody else can help you. I don't know the specifics, I just know that direct quotations are made all the time without permission. I mean, when you're quoting somebody in order to shoot their argument to pieces, you'd never get permission. But it's done all the time. But I'm sure you can go well beyond 100 words. I don't think there's a black and white line, or a precise word figure. But it has to be quite clear that you're not plagiarizing, and that you're using the quotations to comment on them and to supplement what you're saying, and not to just piggyback on their work. If you're doing something along the lines of: The head of the famed cardiological lab in Kalamazoo now believes that this problem is actually caused by eating catfood and then referencing his article in the New World Order Medical Journal, followed by a quote from Expert B who violently disagrees, before giving your own advice on how to deal with this in practical terms ("A close reading of the NWOMJ article shows that it is not catfood itself that's the problem, but only chicken-based catfood, so feel free to continue eating Seafood Delight."), that's fair use. You're not just delivering somebody's work in little pieces and trying to sell it as something new.

Again, googling quotations fair use, or something similar will probably tell you everything you need to know.
 

Mom

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I hope somebody else can help you. I don't know the specifics, I just know that direct quotations are made all the time without permission. I mean, when you're quoting somebody in order to shoot their argument to pieces, you'd never get permission. But it's done all the time. But I'm sure you can go well beyond 100 words. I don't think there's a black and white line, or a precise word figure. But it has to be quite clear that you're not plagiarizing, and that you're using the quotations to comment on them and to supplement what you're saying, and not to just piggyback on their work. If you're doing something along the lines of: The head of the famed cardiological lab in Kalamazoo now believes that this problem is actually caused by eating catfood and then referencing his article in the New World Order Medical Journal, followed by a quote from Expert B who violently disagrees, before giving your own advice on how to deal with this in practical terms ("A close reading of the NWOMJ article shows that it is not catfood itself that's the problem, but only chicken-based catfood, so feel free to continue eating Seafood Delight."), that's fair use. You're not just delivering somebody's work in little pieces and trying to sell it as something new.

Again, googling quotations fair use, or something similar will probably tell you everything you need to know.

Thanks so much for your help - I appreciate it!!
 

underthecity

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I believe the audience for this would be very small. (Very interested, hopefully, as no such resource exists on the market right now... but, still, a small audience.) For that reason, I never thought a traditional publisher would be interested. Plus, I'm not a medical professional... just someone with personal experience. I thought that would likely be a turn-off to traditional publishers as well.

If the audience is extremely small, then self-publishing might be your best option. OTOH, if your book is a memoir of the sort where you were able to survive and grow from some extremely unusual illness, then a commercial publisher could be interested. Just a thought.



No, you can quote directly for short passages. It's called "fair use". If you're quoting a page or two at a time, that's a different story.
I didn't realize there was a cutoff limit to how much you could quote from another source. I think "short" may have to be defined. But you're right, if you're quoting a source and then talking about it, then you can quote without permission. If you're using the quoted material as part of your own text (and pretending it's your own), that's plagiarism. I hadn't made that distinction exactly when I read the OP. My bad.
 

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Again, googling quotations fair use, or something similar will probably tell you everything you need to know.

It won't. Fair use is decided in court, by a judge, and sometimes, a jury. There are "safe harbors" -- things like educational, use, and critiques, and things of that sort.

A short quotation with citation that is analyzed or commented or critiqued is generally considered to be a safe harbor "fair use."

You probably don't need permission. But I know for a fact JAMA is dead easy to get permission from, and that they don't charge unless you need a copy or a slide or image, or something of that sort.

And it might get your book reviewed ;)

Wait until you are ready to publish, or have a publisher to ask for permissions because you'll need to know how many copies you expect to have printed.

In the meantime, footnote, cite, and track your sources carefully.
 

Mom

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Wait until you are ready to publish, or have a publisher to ask for permissions because you'll need to know how many copies you expect to have printed.

In the meantime, footnote, cite, and track your sources carefully.

Thanks for suggesting the appropriate timeline for getting permissions (if needed). That really helps!
 

Twizzle

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Another question alone these lines... there are a few online forums were folks with this condition write about their experiences and post questions. These forums are typically semi-anonymous (like the water cooler here) and people use screen names. Many post in the forum, then disappear and there is no way to contact them. Can I quote from personal experience posted by folks in these forums without permission? Any quotations would be carefully selected so there wouldn't be any personally identifying information, of course. If it is OK to use such quotations...do those words belong to the poster or to the forum in which they posted? (What do I cite, in other words.) Perhaps this is an area I should avoid all together... but if I could quote snippets from actual patients, that may really enhance the book.

Hey, Mom. This stuck out for me, because I too am working on a book right now about a rare med condition. :) And I was talking with the head of an organization that has a forum very similiar to what you're talking about. She urged me very strongly not to involve the forum in any way.

The thing is, people use those forums for very personal reasons-mainly support. They've had instances where people have come on and basically used the forums, and people have felt violated and (obviously) used. The boards basically shut down for a while. Which really hurts these people-they need answers and support, and want their privacy.

I promised to stay well away-not for legal reasons, but more for the ethical. Perhaps it's something to consider. At the very least, I'd check with whoever runs the board and ask for their thoughts. And good luck.
 
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underthecity

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You can also ask the people privately on those boards if they want to share their experiences with you. Since they'll know that their message might now help even more people, being in published form, they might be willing to help.
 

Twizzle

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You can also ask the people privately on those boards if they want to share their experiences with you. Since they'll know that their message might now help even more people, being in published form, they might be willing to help.

I was also asked not to do this. I was told that when private forum users know they're being watched and could be directly contacted, the boards temporarily shut down. People just stopped using them. And I just didn't want to be responsible for that.

However, we did discuss alternatives. My plan is, with her permission, to post a very careful message (either by myself or her-haven't gotten that far yet) explaining what I was doing and how people may contact me if they were interested in helping on the forum (in a general area) but not quite in the threads. There's still some concern with people reacting negatively, but it's an alternative.

You have to understand. These people want help exposing this disorder, yes, but that comes secondary to their need for support and answers, and most of all, privacy. So I respected her request.

Again, it's just something that was asked of me and that I agreed to for purely ethical reasons. It also just applies to my situation and that board. My advice is still the same, though: run it by whoever runs that board, perhaps.
 
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underthecity

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My advice is still the same, though: run it by whoever runs that board, perhaps.
Oh, this is definitely the first thing to do before approaching anyone.

Secondly, would be to get very involved in that board. That way, the posters there know who you are and might be more comfortable with privately sharing information.

Just like on AW, when someone with a post count of 1 jumps in and asks who everyone's publishers are and what their books are. You'd be more apt to share if that person's been on the board for a while.
 

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Excellent thoughts on the online forum. There is a specific forum that I have sporadically participated in for a few years now. When I'm ready, I'll get in touch with the administrators and ask their opinions and how to proceed. Thanks again!!
 

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This is just my own personal approach but FWIW: I routinely take direct quotes of up to a sentence or two from peer-reviewed journals and use them with appropriate attribution. I have done so in several books and a great many articles (academic and popular media). So far ('so far' being several decades) there have been no problems at all.
 

DeleyanLee

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Just out of curiosity--why don't you submit it to JAMA or ask your doctor for suggestions?

I know of several patients who have published articles on their condition in medical journals, which has sparked interest and research into that disorder or disease. In some cases, it's lead to articles, direct contact with researchers and, occasionally, a book deal or three.

Something to consider. Good luck.
 

Mom

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Just out of curiosity--why don't you submit it to JAMA or ask your doctor for suggestions?

I know of several patients who have published articles on their condition in medical journals, which has sparked interest and research into that disorder or disease. In some cases, it's lead to articles, direct contact with researchers and, occasionally, a book deal or three.

Something to consider. Good luck.


Thanks for the suggestion. I have thought about doing this. I'm in the very early stages of this, though, of outlining and starting to write my own personal experience. I have thought about asking my doctor if she would be willing to add some content (either quotations or if she was really into the idea perhaps a forward).

I never thought about contacting JAMA for publication of an article. I like that you are thinking big. I've been thinking very small for this project, and maybe I should consider bigger possibilities for it.
 

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No, you can quote directly for short passages. It's called "fair use". If you're quoting a page or two at a time, that's a different story. Make sure it's clear that it's a quotation and indicate the sources and there's no problem at all. Mind you, if half the book is quotations, that would probably be going beyond fair use provisions. ;)

If you couldn't quote directly without getting permission, the entire academic publishing industry would cease to exist. As would book reviews, political commentary, and a number of others. I can't tell you exactly where the lines are (I don't write non-fiction), but a little research should clear that up quickly. (I do proofreading for my historian hubby, and trust me, they don't ask permission, and nobody expects them to.)

Musical lyrics are quite different, mind you, but I don't think that's going to be an issue with your book.

I believe the limit is 50 words.
 

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I never thought about contacting JAMA for publication of an article. I like that you are thinking big. I've been thinking very small for this project, and maybe I should consider bigger possibilities for it.

You know that most academic and scholarly journals do not pay, right? And many retain all rights?
 

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I think the first ammendment to free speech allows you to quote without permission. I see newspapers and magazines quote from other publications all the time.
 

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I'm late to this party but I do have something to offer Mom:

Get with a few specialists in the area of the medical condition and see if one of them will "consult" with you about a few things...eventually ask them to write a forward. Getting a doctor's name on the cover would be a huge help in commercializing it. And remember although the condition may be rare and only affect a few, there are those that know and love the person that are going to be interested in learning more about their condition too.
 
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