PDA

View Full Version : What does LOVE mean to you?



som1luvsmi
12-29-2009, 07:32 AM
To the Mods: I have no idea where this thread should go, but since it stemmed from a P&CE thread, I kept it here.


In a recent thread, the topic of love and sex came up.

Is one more important than the other?
Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
Is love fleeting, or timeless?
What is true love?
Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
Can one really "fall in love"?

And so many other questions.

Everyone seems to have a different perception as to what love means to them.

So I ask - What does love mean to you?

AMCrenshaw
12-29-2009, 07:39 AM
What does love mean to you?


"A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose ..."

Celia Cyanide
12-29-2009, 08:17 AM
I used to be quite cynical about love, and I did not believe in it until I fell in love with someone.

IMO, the problem with love is that too many people feel they are not complete without it, and are willing to put themselves through anything to experience a substitute for it. Which is the surest way to keep themselves from ever finding it. I thought that these games people played were all that love really was, and that nothing existed beyond that. I was right about one thing. There were a lot of people out there kidding themselves. But there was so much more beyond that.

Where is Haskins? He never turns up when you need him.

rhymegirl
12-29-2009, 08:58 AM
In a recent thread, the topic of love and sex came up.

Is one more important than the other?
I would say love is more important if we're talking about a long-term relationship. Let's say in a long-term relationship/marriage, something happens to one of the two people. (some kind of paralysis/injury/reason why one cannot have sex.) They can stay together if they truly love each other and they'll show each other love in other ways--hugging, kissing, touching, words of affection. But in a short-term relationship, sex may be more important to the two people involved.
Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
It starts out "just happening", but needs to be cultivated to keep growing.
Is love fleeting, or timeless?
I think puppy love is fleeting; true love is timeless.
What is true love?
Oh wow. You just know it if you're in it. Or you don't.
Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
I think it can last a lifetime with the right person.
Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
Lust is a physical feeling. Love is emotional. If you feel both for someone, that's great.
Can one really "fall in love"?
Yes, I think so.

slcboston
12-29-2009, 09:08 AM
It's chemically no different than consuming large quantities of chocolate. :D


... and where that quote came from is going to bug me the rest of the night.

Zoombie
12-29-2009, 09:17 AM
Love is awesome, sex is awesome, loving sex is awesome...

:D

Kalyke
12-29-2009, 09:32 AM
I more or less explore this in my writing-- which means, I don't know. In my WIP is is a kind of ownership. It is easy to buy and sell. It is an obsession and addiction. Who knows. I've loved people who haven't loved me, and visa versa. I personally agree with the undying devotion of my two dogs. Their love for me is more love than any human has ever given me.

Tiz_Mee
12-29-2009, 01:48 PM
OMG, Sarah you should have warned me before I came over here! What the heck are you tryin to do to me!

ok, I'm calm. :D Wait, I'll be back after I grab a bottle out of the pantry.

ETA: alright, after srsly wanting to run and hide, I came back. And I like all the posts so far, they make sense to me, depending oh which way I tilt my head.

(I wrote a whole bunch here and just backspaced it, cause while I was writing it, it made sense. But when I read it I said WTF?) I think maybe what i need is a crater full of chocolate, because like until love, as in the real thing, comes crashing through my door, I srsly won't know.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 01:52 PM
"A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose ..."

No it isn't.


Love is awesome, sex is awesome, loving sex is awesome...

:D

What about sexing love?

scarletpeaches
12-29-2009, 02:12 PM
Is one more important than the other?
Absolutely not.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
Love is not a noun - it's a verb. It's not something you feel; it's something you do. It's more about the other person than yourself.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?
If it's fleeting, it's not love.

What is true love?
No such thing. To call one form 'true' is an insult to all the other kinds, which are no less valid.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
Yes it can last a lifetime, if it's maintained. A fire dies out without fuel.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
Yes we do, and it is wrong. They are equal in value, but different. Lust is about how you make me feel. Love is about what I do for you.

Can one really "fall in love"?
Yes. And here's the thing. You can help who you fall in love with. If someone's bad for you, stay away from them and you won't fall. If you do fall, it's your own fault because you invested time and effort in this person.

What does love mean to you?
Ask me again when I've met someone with the same ideas about love as I; then I'll be able to tell you what it feels like to give and receive in equal measure.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 02:17 PM
What is true love?
No such thing. To call one form 'true' is an insult to all the other kinds, which are no less valid.

Yes. Thank you.


Can one really "fall in love"?
Yes. And here's the thing. You can help who you fall in love with. If someone's bad for you, stay away from them and you won't fall. If you do fall, it's your own fault because you invested time and effort in this person.

I'm not sure about that. Love is like gravity. Sometimes you can run away fast enough, achieve escape velocity. But sometimes it's too powerful no matter how much you might want to get away.

Zoombie
12-29-2009, 03:30 PM
What about sexing love?

That is also awesome.

There are more types of love than there are hydrogen atoms in the universe...and if we sat here till our sun grows cold and dark, we'd name but a fraction of the different strains of love. Though...there are worse ways to spend one's time. You could try and define all our different ways of hating!

Bah, I say. Lets not hate, lets love. Its more fun, for one thing.

Maxinquaye
12-29-2009, 03:39 PM
What is true love?
'True love' is a lie that has ravaged more lives than I care to think about. There is love, which can be strong or weak. Attaching the word true to the word love makes it a lie.

Is one more important than the other?
No.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
We're mammals and emit pheromones. Love can happen, but infatuation can be easily overcome when reason kicks in.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?
Neither. It is a chemical state.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
Passion is not love. When you watch your partner scratch his ass going to the bathroom in the morning after five years of marriage, you don't really want to do him on the floor there and then.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
Lust is temporary. You don't want to do someone 24/7.

Can one really "fall in love"?
Answered that above.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 03:40 PM
Sometimes hateful love and loveful hate can be fun, too.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 03:42 PM
Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
Passion is not love. When you watch your partner scratch his ass going to the bathroom in the morning after five years of marriage, you don't really want to do him on the floor there and then.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
Lust is temporary. You don't want to do someone 24/7.

To both of the above....

Speak for yourself! ;)

Zoombie
12-29-2009, 03:44 PM
Sometimes hateful love and loveful hate can be fun, too.

Also true!

Also, as for doing someone 24/7...no. I'll just stick with 12/7

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 03:52 PM
Also, as for doing someone 24/7...no. I'll just stick with 12/7

YOU DO NOT NEED SLEEP.

Zoombie
12-29-2009, 04:09 PM
Humans don't *need* a lot of things. we don't need video games, or tooth brushes, or comfortable beds, or lifespans that last beyond 18.

But we do enjoy them :D

aruna
12-29-2009, 04:25 PM
What love means to me:

In a recent thread, the topic of love and sex came up. Is one more important than the other?
Yes. True love is real, and important. Sex is an itch; it comes and goes; transitory by nature.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
Love is always there, at the core of our being. It's either revealed, or veiled; once revealed it must be cultivated.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?
Timeless. What is fleeting, is not love.

What is true love?
Solid as a rock, and permanent. It's a state of being, a state of union.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
By it's very nature, it flares, and dies, and flares again, and dies again; that is its nature.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
People do. It's wrong.

Can one really "fall in love"?
"Falling in love" is different to being in love. Being in love. Falling in love is mostly faling in lust, or infatuation.

Zoombie
12-29-2009, 04:38 PM
Scratching an itch is fun too...

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 04:42 PM
If sex is an itch, you're scratching it wrong.

Zoombie
12-29-2009, 04:44 PM
But if an itch is an itch, stucco is amazing if used carefully...

I was thinking about love...

Its one of those things, wherein the more you give, the more you get. Unless its one of those times you don't.

Alpha Echo
12-29-2009, 04:50 PM
Is one more important than the other?
Absolutely not.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
Love is not a noun - it's a verb. It's not something you feel; it's something you do. It's more about the other person than yourself.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?
If it's fleeting, it's not love.

What is true love?
No such thing. To call one form 'true' is an insult to all the other kinds, which are no less valid.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
Yes it can last a lifetime, if it's maintained. A fire dies out without fuel.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
Yes we do, and it is wrong. They are equal in value, but different. Lust is about how you make me feel. Love is about what I do for you.

Can one really "fall in love"?
Yes. And here's the thing. You can help who you fall in love with. If someone's bad for you, stay away from them and you won't fall. If you do fall, it's your own fault because you invested time and effort in this person.

What does love mean to you?
Ask me again when I've met someone with the same ideas about love as I; then I'll be able to tell you what it feels like to give and receive in equal measure.

Wow. I agree with EVERYthing you said. But I'll answer the last question because I am in love. What does love mean to me? It means...when something, anything at all happens, I want to tell him first. It means knowing that when I get home, he's there. It means putting him first to the point that it's not even a conscious thought. It means needing him a little and being there when he needs me. It means not being any different with him than I am by myself. No sensors. Nothing held back. It means being open sexually and emotionally. It means deciding everyday to love him for his quirks and for his bad habits...and knowing he accepts and loves me for mine as well. It means being there for each other before anyone else. It means supporting and respecting his goals and ideas and dreams and not being afraid to voice my own because I know he does the same for me.

I could really keep going, but I want to read what other people said. :)

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 04:53 PM
Love is who you want with you when the world ends.

maxmordon
12-29-2009, 05:04 PM
I feel I don't have much experience in life to answer this, all my romantic experiences end up as the girl goes with a sexier, badder boy and I end up as Duckie in Pretty in Pink since I am sweet but I am too fat/tall/young/geeky/gentle/etc. for them and they prefer the damn mess-up since they think they can fix them and who they call at 2 AM crying needing someone to comfort them? Me, that's who.

The one time I had a reciprocal relationship with someone that person loved more the power that had over me than myself, she loved to point out I was expandable and I was very hurt. Love is a freaking hormonal drug that clouds your reason and makes you a functional moron, trapped in a delusion of perfection and putting in a column people that half of the time they don't deserve it.

So, let's go with this:

Is one more important than the other?

I haven't had sex, so I can't really say. I will say love is more important since there are so many types of it.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?

There are cases where it just happens, where two people simply do "click" and others where is cultivated to create a dependent vicious circle, like marriages.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?

It's usually fleeting but can become timeless under a mix of dependence and habitude and having little pauses of each other.

What is true love?

An imaginated, but impossible standard. Just like the perfect beauty or the answer of life.´Possibly invented by poets either during the Ancient or the Renaissance.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?

It simply dies, but it can be expanded upon giving rests of each other once in a while.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?

Not the same, I can feel lust for one person or love for one person and these usually overlap but are not the same thing.

Can one really "fall in love"?

As I mentioned above, one can "click" with a person but as far as I know it happens once in a blue moon.

JimmyB27
12-29-2009, 05:29 PM
Love = pain and anguish.

maxmordon
12-29-2009, 05:32 PM
Love = pain and anguish.

Romantic love, that is.

Alpha Echo
12-29-2009, 05:32 PM
Love = pain and anguish.

It can. But you won't know the joy and contentedness and...warmth that love can be if you don't take the risk of pain and anguish.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 05:44 PM
It can. But you won't know the joy and contentedness and...warmth that love can be if you don't take the risk of pain and anguish.

And sometimes it can be all of the above at once, and that can be exciting too.

Fran
12-29-2009, 05:53 PM
Love has never, ever, ever made me happy. The contentedness and warmth Alpha Echo speaks of has never been my experience. Nothing has ever made me more miserable. The last man I loved told me he loved someone else and would rather be with her. I'm glad he claimed to love me because God knows what he'd have said to me if he didn't. Love, for me, is painful and hard and devastating and twisted.

I think I have a good heart and I have a lot of love to give, but I'm disinclined to. Whenever I give my love to someone they trample on it. So I think from now on my love is going to my friends, cats and Nintendo.

As for sex, the best I've had was with a man I didn't love, and he didn't love me. So I don't place much faith in the idea it's better when you're in love. But this is only my experience.

Alpha Echo
12-29-2009, 05:55 PM
And sometimes it can be all of the above at once, and that can be exciting too.

Very true. I think love is worth the risk.

Alpha Echo
12-29-2009, 06:01 PM
Love has never, ever, ever made me happy. The contentedness and warmth Alpha Echo speaks of has never been my experience. Nothing has ever made me more miserable. The last man I loved told me he loved someone else and would rather be with her. I'm glad he claimed to love me because God knows what he'd have said to me if he didn't. Love, for me, is painful and hard and devastating and twisted.

I think I have a good heart and I have a lot of love to give, but I'm disinclined to. Whenever I give my love to someone they trample on it. So I think from now on my love is going to my friends, cats and Nintendo.

As for sex, the best I've had was with a man I didn't love, and he didn't love me. So I don't place much faith in the idea it's better when you're in love. But this is only my experience.

I'm very sorry you've had such bad experiences with love. I don't know what to say to that. I really don't. I do understand what you're saying. I've been through a lot myself. I know I've mentioned this on here before, but I was married to a manipulative liar. Unbeknownst to me, he put an ad on Craig's List to meet someone 1500 miles away. He met her, had an affair with her, all the while telling me he was traveling for work. I spent several long months in misery. I finally discovered the affair and left him. It took another six months to struggle through depression. Everyone warned me to be careful and not let it harden my heart.

For some reason, it didn't.

My boyfriend has been through a horrible divorce with a nasty custody battle. His ex-wife wrongfully accused him of everything you could think of in regards to herself and their daughter. I can't go into it, but trust me when I say no one should have to endure what he endured.

And somehow, his heart didn't harden either.

And somehow, we found each other, and it works. We fit. And both of us have said time and again we would go through everything we went through with our ex's if we knew we would find each other in the end.

Susie
12-29-2009, 06:05 PM
Love to me is two people who are together through happy times, sad times, etc. and who makes each other feel wonderful, with a geniune joy in each other's heart for that special someone.

quickWit
12-29-2009, 06:05 PM
Love is sleeping in the wet spot.

scarletpeaches
12-29-2009, 06:07 PM
Love doesn't hurt. It just...doesn't. If it did, I would lose all faith in everything that's good. If something is done with love, it flows, it feels right, it just...is.

If it hurts, it's insecurity, jealousy, hate, anger.

No, I've never been in love - but I know what love isn't.

DeleyanLee
12-29-2009, 06:08 PM
Is one more important than the other?

Depends on where you are in your life and what you want. For some periods of my life, one was more important than the other. In other times, I couldn't give a crap about either of them. Life is fluid, so I don't think that importance of anything is absolute either.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?

Yes.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?

Yes.

What is true love?

The people I know who have "true love" are the couples who have worked at it, who don't take it for granted. However it started, they've maintained it over the years/decades and you can see it sparkle in their eyes when they look at each other.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?

Passion lasts as long as it's nutured, whether it's a sexual passion, a musical passion or any other passion. Anything dies when it's not nutured.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?

Many people do, but I don't think it's a universal given.

It's only wrong if doing so hurts someone.

Can one really "fall in love"?

As in "head over heels instantly" fall in love? Yes. My parents did, and were married 6 months later and just celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary. I have many other relatives that did just that.

As in "start as friends and fall in love slowly, over time" fall in love? Yes. I have several friends who have done this as well, many of whom are celebrating more than 20 years of marriage.

So I ask - What does love mean to you?

I love, and have loved, friends, children, parents, sisters, relatives but I've never had romantic love. I thought I did, once, and married the guy but realized that it was a mix of desperation and lust and not really love.

I can't doubt that it's real. As I've mentioned, I've been surrounded by it all my life. The best description I've gotten from some of those people is that it starts as a mutual trust, respect and desire to forever be at their loved one's back and to have them at theirs--but more. After that more, things always become vague and personal.

Don
12-29-2009, 06:09 PM
I've always thought this was an excellent definition of love.

Love is the condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own.
:)
Another, which I haven't been able to source, but I believe is also Heinlein.

Love is what keeps a parent from drowning their children at birth. :D

Maxinquaye
12-29-2009, 06:11 PM
Love has never, ever, ever made me happy. The contentedness and warmth Alpha Echo speaks of has never been my experience. Nothing has ever made me more miserable. The last man I loved told me he loved someone else and would rather be with her. I'm glad he claimed to love me because God knows what he'd have said to me if he didn't. Love, for me, is painful and hard and devastating and twisted.

I think I have a good heart and I have a lot of love to give, but I'm disinclined to. Whenever I give my love to someone they trample on it. So I think from now on my love is going to my friends, cats and Nintendo.

As for sex, the best I've had was with a man I didn't love, and he didn't love me. So I don't place much faith in the idea it's better when you're in love. But this is only my experience.

For me, I've spent most of my life falling in love with impossible people, so I know what you're saying. I've been falling apart from afar, so to speak.

Love is misery and joy. I hope you get to experience the joy part. It's fucking awesome.

As to true love. No, it's not real. It's what keeps people apart. Whatever love can be the romantic ideal of 'true love'. Or not.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 06:14 PM
Those who claim "true love," in my experience, are those who have no idea what they're talking about.

Alpha Echo
12-29-2009, 06:15 PM
Love doesn't hurt. It just...doesn't. If it did, I would lose all faith in everything that's good. If something is done with love, it flows, it feels right, it just...is.

If it hurts, it's insecurity, jealousy, hate, anger.

No, I've never been in love - but I know what love isn't.

That is a great point. So far, I've had none of that with my SO. It really just...is.

I think love can morph into hurt. But LOVE is just beautiful and healing, not harmful.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 06:16 PM
Another, which I haven't been able to source, but I believe is also Heinlein.


Love is what keeps a parent from drowning their children at birth.

:D

Love is fear of a prison sentence?

:D

Alpha Echo
12-29-2009, 06:16 PM
I've always thought this was an excellent definition of love.

:)
Another, which I haven't been able to source, but I believe is also Heinlein.
:D

Great quotes. :)

scarletpeaches
12-29-2009, 06:18 PM
That is a great point. So far, I've had none of that with my SO. It really just...is.

I think love can morph into hurt. But LOVE is just beautiful and healing, not harmful.I know it's wanky to say "Whatever the question, love is the answer," but hey, I said it. Sue me.

I've said before love is about the other person and if I think of you as much as, or more than, I think of myself, I'll temper any action with "How would this make Alpha Echo feel?" If it would make you feel bad, I don't do it. If it would make you feel good, I do it more and more.

It doesn't mean I lose myself in you. It means...well, love doesn't subtract. It adds.

No, wait. It multiplies.

There. :D

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 06:18 PM
Love doesn't hurt. It just...doesn't. If it did, I would lose all faith in everything that's good. If something is done with love, it flows, it feels right, it just...is.

If it hurts, it's insecurity, jealousy, hate, anger.

No, I've never been in love - but I know what love isn't.


That is a great point. So far, I've had none of that with my SO. It really just...is.

I think love can morph into hurt. But LOVE is just beautiful and healing, not harmful.

Hmm.

Yes.

Love feels good. Sometimes thing accompany love that feel terrible and painful and make you want to die. But that's not love itself.

Love is easy. Relationships are hard.

scarletpeaches
12-29-2009, 06:19 PM
The only thing that hurts is fear of the loss of love.

quickWit
12-29-2009, 06:20 PM
It means...well, love doesn't subtract. It adds.

No, wait. It multiplies.

So, you're saying love is a bunny, then?


:snoopy:

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 06:20 PM
The only thing that hurts is fear of the loss of love.

Not quite. Seeing someone you love get hurt is even more painful.

(And if it doesn't, it's not really love.)

Celia Cyanide
12-29-2009, 06:22 PM
This thread makes me DIZZY!!!!

scarletpeaches
12-29-2009, 06:22 PM
So, you're saying love is a bunny, then?


:snoopy:You shut your hole.
Not quite. Seeing someone you love get hurt is even more painful.Which is in a way, fear of the loss of love - if they're hurt badly enough they might not be around any more.
(And if it doesn't, it's not really love.)Or it could be that you trust the other person enough to look after themselves and while their being hurt is regrettable, it's still something you know they'll get through.

JimmyB27
12-29-2009, 06:22 PM
The only thing that hurts is fear of the loss of love.
Or when you actually do lose it.

Or when it's never reciprocated in the first place.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 06:23 PM
Which is in a way, fear of the loss of love - if they're hurt badly enough they might not be around any more.

I'd rather someone I love leave me and be happy than stay with me and be miserable.

I hate to agree with Don. It grates on my soul in a way. But it's like his first quote.

Alpha Echo
12-29-2009, 06:24 PM
I know it's wanky to say "Whatever the question, love is the answer," but hey, I said it. Sue me.

I've said before love is about the other person and if I think of you as much as, or more than, I think of myself, I'll temper any action with "How would this make Alpha Echo feel?" If it would make you feel bad, I don't do it. If it would make you feel good, I do it more and more.

It doesn't mean I lose myself in you. It means...well, love doesn't subtract. It adds.

No, wait. It multiplies.

There. :D

I know exactly what you're saying, and I was trying to say it in my first post. I know for me...I don't even have to think about my SO consciously b/c...he's part of me. But not that I've lost myself. We automatically do things for each other all the time. Sometimes, yes, we've thought it all out. But sometimes...it's just because we're part of each other. Does that make sense?

Fran
12-29-2009, 06:28 PM
Very true. I think love is worth the risk.

Not for me. Not anymore. The last one claimed to love me and he hurt me more than I've ever been hurt in my life. If there's ever another chance for me, and there might not be because I'm not an easy person to get to know, let alone love, he's going to have to do a lot of running uphill before I'll even think about it. The thought of feeling the way I do now again is just too horrible.

Alpha Echo
12-29-2009, 06:31 PM
Not for me. Not anymore. The last one claimed to love me and he hurt me more than I've ever been hurt in my life. If there's ever another chance for me, and there might not be because I'm not an easy person to get to know, let alone love, he's going to have to do a lot of running uphill before I'll even think about it. The thought of feeling the way I do now again is just too horrible.

Well, I think if you're meant to find love again, it'll happen without you expecting it or looking for it. I know that's cliche, but I think that's how it happens.

I do wish happiness for you, Fran, however you may find it.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 06:34 PM
Not for me. Not anymore. The last one claimed to love me and he hurt me more than I've ever been hurt in my life. If there's ever another chance for me, and there might not be because I'm not an easy person to get to know, let alone love, he's going to have to do a lot of running uphill before I'll even think about it. The thought of feeling the way I do now again is just too horrible.

I doubt he really loved you. Claiming it and really feeling it are very different things.

Falling in love isn't something you can stop or help. When it happens, it happens, and you can't do anything about it.

It's scary, but when it's right, it's the best thing that can happen to you.

DeleyanLee
12-29-2009, 06:35 PM
The only thing that hurts is fear of the loss of love.

Actually, what hurts is to adjust your life for your loved one, to think of their benefit and dislikes when considering your actions and then discovering that they refuse to do the same for you, that they take your changes for them for granted and manipulate you into bad positions and decisions while they get all the gain. Basically, that they don't love you at all while sucking up all your love.

It's not fear of loss of love, it's fear (or experience) of unreturned love.

scarletpeaches
12-29-2009, 06:38 PM
"Fear of the loss of love" seems to be taken too literally.

It could also mean "fear of the loss of the love you thought you had but didn't" but sheesh...I assumed we'd all realise that.

Alpha Echo
12-29-2009, 06:48 PM
Actually, what hurts is to adjust your life for your loved one, to think of their benefit and dislikes when considering your actions and then discovering that they refuse to do the same for you, that they take your changes for them for granted and manipulate you into bad positions and decisions while they get all the gain. Basically, that they don't love you at all while sucking up all your love.

It's not fear of loss of love, it's fear (or experience) of unreturned love.

Oooh, wow. You nailed my relationship with my ex dead-on. He broke me down until I was nothing. Love doesn't do that. He never loved me. Love builds you up.

Don
12-29-2009, 06:51 PM
I'd rather someone I love leave me and be happy than stay with me and be miserable.

I hate to agree with Don. It grates on my soul in a way. But it's like his first quote.
No love lost on me, I see. :D

maxmordon
12-29-2009, 06:54 PM
I love you, guys.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 06:59 PM
No love lost on me, I see. :D

It's not your beliefs, Don. You just happen to grate on my soul in a profound way.

Whereas love is the person whose fingers run along the harp of my soul and play the perfect melody without ever having rehearsed.

cray
12-29-2009, 07:09 PM
Whereas love is the person whose fingers run along the harp of my soul and play the perfect melody without ever having rehearsed.


kuwisdelu loves haggis,...kuwisdelu loves haggis,...kuwisdelu loves haggis.

kuwisdelu
12-29-2009, 07:12 PM
kuwisdelu loves haggis,...kuwisdelu loves haggis,...kuwisdelu loves haggis.

He is one sexy chihuahua.

Fran
12-29-2009, 08:06 PM
I do wish happiness for you, Fran, however you may find it.

Happiness now is The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks and David Tennant on the iPlayer. :D

AMCrenshaw
12-29-2009, 09:21 PM
Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?



Why I don't think anything just happens.



Is love fleeting, or timeless?


The law of love itself is universal. Human beings are fleeting, and so is their love. But timelessness is an attribute of love -- when one loves, they necessarily love timelessly; time is insignificant.


Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?

Love is a kind of passion -- if you simply mean "the hots", these hot spots differ between couples and can very possibly last all of a lifetime.



Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?


It's not wrong or right. Lust is most often an urgent expression of love of the self.



Can one really "fall in love"?


I've always pictured "falling in love" as, say, my spirit falling from my body into the beloved's, while the beloved's spirit is in my body. Then upon creating bliss and high tension in every part of the body, our spirits consent and are free to leave and return whenever.

My other feeling is that the sensation of "falling in love" is the sensation of the past and future fading from importance. How sweet the sound of that!




AMC

sohalt
12-29-2009, 11:44 PM
I like to quote Larkin on that one...

The difficult part of love
Is being selfish enough,
Is having the blind persistence
To upset an existence
Just for your own sake.
What cheek it must take.

And then the unselfish side --
How can you be satisfied,
Putting someone else first
So that you come out worst?
My life is for me.
As well ignore gravity.

Still, vicious or virtuous,
Love suits most of us.
Only the bleeder found
Selfish this wrong way round
Is ever wholly rebuffed,
And he will get stuffed.
-.-

So love = being selfish the right way round

I think it's a choice.

Most people long for the clarity of passion to make it easier (another Larkin quote..."you want no choice in where / to build or whom to love/ you ask them to bear/ you off irrevocably / so that it's not your fault / when the town turns out dreary / the girl a dolt") , but I'm not so sure about this.

Clarity of passion might be helpful to briefly illuminate a path, but sooner or later things are going to get muddy and murky again and I think it's more important to be able to cope with that.

Fran
12-29-2009, 11:54 PM
Larkin also wrote 'What will survive of us is love' - from An Arundel Tomb. :)

dclary
12-30-2009, 12:02 AM
Actually, the best poet here is Eddie Van Halen.

How do I know when it's love?
I can't tell you but it lasts forever
Oh! How does it feel when it's love?
It's just something you feel together

HelloKiddo
12-30-2009, 12:40 AM
Here's a video that expresses my views on the subject. It's from The Mirror has Two Faces with Barbara Streisand. If you've never seen it, this is the famous lecture scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV5MrxwSJGk

R.G. Alexander
12-30-2009, 01:19 AM
I do think people can fall in love. My husband and I moved in together after knowing each other in RL for 3 days. Been together ever since. I am only happy when he is happy, and he is only happy when I am happy. It just works for us. I have never had to think about making it work, it just does.

Death Wizard
12-30-2009, 01:43 AM
I do think people can fall in love. My husband and I moved in together after knowing each other in RL for 3 days. Been together ever since. I am only happy when he is happy, and he is only happy when I am happy. It just works for us. I have never had to think about making it work, it just does.

How long have you been together?

R.G. Alexander
12-30-2009, 01:47 AM
We have been together 6 years, and married for 5.

Maxinquaye
12-30-2009, 01:47 AM
Here's a video that expresses my views on the subject. It's from The Mirror has Two Faces with Barbara Streisand. If you've never seen it, this is the famous lecture scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV5MrxwSJGk

But do you know the origin of Courtly Love? It came from the court in Poitier, headed by one of the most consummate power-women of the middle ages who married two kings, gave birth to three - among other Richard Coeur-de-Lion, better known as Rirchard the Lionheart, and Prince John who had to sign the Magna Charta.

Eleanor of Aquitaine is a woman that literally knocks your socks off, and in the real world, she had no compulsion about having sex. :)

dclary
12-30-2009, 02:00 AM
I do think people can fall in love. My husband and I moved in together after knowing each other in RL for 3 days. Been together ever since. I am only happy when he is happy, and he is only happy when I am happy. It just works for us. I have never had to think about making it work, it just does.

Agreed. My late wife and I had our first date on February 7th, and were married on March 20th of that same year. We'd been married 15 very happy love-filled years before she was taken. Sometimes you just know it. Sometimes it just happens. When it does... Seize it.

Death Wizard
12-30-2009, 02:27 AM
We have been together 6 years, and married for 5.

Get back to us after 10.

:)

scarletpeaches
12-30-2009, 02:29 AM
See Deek's post above.

Death Wizard
12-30-2009, 02:42 AM
I'm always reminded about the movie Four Seasons, where the married couple (Alan Alda and Carol Burnett) are so extraordinarily happy (forever in love) in the first couple of scenes, but eventually ... uh oh.

Very few couples are happy forever. It comes and goes. And it's a lot of work. And people change. And life changes. Everything changes. It is the nature of things. Even the nature of "love." IMHO.

Death Wizard
12-30-2009, 03:05 AM
See Deek's post above.

There are exceptions to every rule. :)

ad_lucem
12-30-2009, 03:35 AM
Is one more important than the other?

Yes. Love is more important than just about anything else on the planet--hands down.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?

Both.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?

Both.

What is true love?

Unconditional.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?

Yes, but it developes into new forms.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?

Some people might, but there is a difference and the gulf between them is expansive--to say the least.

Can one really "fall in love"?

Of course, as long as you don't ask a cynic or someone recently jilted.

And so many other questions.

Yes, Yes, No, No, Sure, Maybe, Sometimes, Possibly, Only on Sunday, Never on Wednesday, and Fish and Chips. Does that cover em'? No? Damn. :(

Everyone seems to have a different perception as to what love means to them.

Pretty much, eh?

So I ask - What does love mean to you?

A lot.

rhymegirl
12-30-2009, 03:55 AM
My husband has told me a number of times that he knew I was the woman he was going to marry as soon as I walked into the room.

Yeah, I know. How does one know that? It took me a lot longer to figure out if he was the right one for me.

Fran
12-30-2009, 03:55 AM
It's stories like dclary's that give me hope. Because, despite everything, I'm by nature a happy little elf and I'm nothing if not optimistic. Although I would like to adopt fellow AWer Hettie's proposal she made some time ago, which was a boyfriend reference service. ;)

aadams73
12-30-2009, 03:58 AM
My husband has told me a number of times that he knew I was the woman he was going to marry as soon as I walked into the room.


The moment my father saw my mother he turned to his brother and said, "I'm going to marry her." They're still together almost 40 years later.

KellyAssauer
12-30-2009, 03:58 AM
So I ask - What does love mean to you?


Fish and Chips,
definitely the Fish & Chips.

semilargeintestine
12-30-2009, 04:04 AM
See bold.


To the Mods: I have no idea where this thread should go, but since it stemmed from a P&CE thread, I kept it here.


In a recent thread, the topic of love and sex came up.

Is one more important than the other?

They're both important, but love is definitely the most important in my experience. You can have a physical relationship without love, but it won't be a long term thing; however, you can have a long term relationship that is deep with just love and no sex. I know because I've done it, along with every other Orthodox Jew. The divorce rate is less than 10%, and that's one reason.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?

I never believed in instantaneous love (or "love at first sight" as I guess it is sometimes called) until it happened to me--well, almost at first sight. I knew I was in love with my current girlfriend about 20 minutes after I met her. But it also has to be cultivated, and we've been doing that. I think that's something that never stops--if it does, there's a problem.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?

I think it can be both. It's not something you can say is always one or the other.

What is true love?

It's hard to explain. I've experienced what I thought was true love, but later realised wasn't. But I think you just know when it is. It feels different. Time has never gone faster rather than slower when I was waiting to see someone before. I've also never fallen in love with someone almost immediately after I met them though.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?

Once again, I don't think you can polarise it. I think it can be both.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?

I think some people mistake lust for love. I think it's wrong to equate the two, but I think most of the time it's an honest mistake.

Can one really "fall in love"?

Definitely.

And so many other questions.

Everyone seems to have a different perception as to what love means to them.

So I ask - What does love mean to you?

It's different for everyone, but you asked for an individual answer, so here you have it.

I met my girlfriend Oct 17 at 9:31pm. Not sure how I know that, but that's not the point. I knew I was in love with her by 9:51pm. We talked for about five hours, but at around midnight she told me that she was moving to New Mexico in February 2010. I took her home and asked her out. We went to the movies the next night, and we sat on the trunk of her car for 45 minutes in the cold and talked. After I got home, I asked her if she wanted to go out again, and she told me she was free any day of the week.

So, I went over three days later to watch a meteor shower at a park by her house. We were up talking until 5am, and then we went to sleep, and I stayed at her apartment. I've never been to New Mexico, but when I woke up the next morning, I knew that I'd move there with her if she wanted.

I dunno, to me that's love. I'd still go, but she decided to stay for an extra year so I could finish school. The tentative plan is to move out there Feb. 2011, but that's not fixed in stone yet.

Sorry for the long answer.

aruna
12-30-2009, 10:16 AM
My daughter fell in love at first sight. She was 18 at the time and had never even dated, even while most of her girlfriends were in romantinc swirls, getting pregnant, getting laid, and everything else. She saw him and "knew". And though she's not really the type to make the first appoach, in this case she did.
They've been together ever since, going on two years, which is nothing, but if you know them,. you know it'll last. There's just no question; just an underlying unity and mutual caring. When she started at Uni he upped roots and moved with her, and they set up their own household just like a married couple.

It's what I would have loved for myself, but it was not to be; I went thorugh so many trials and tribulations it's just not funny. But I could have married the first boy I fell in love with at 18 or even 14 and stayed with him forever, if only...

The more you are hurt the more difficult it is to trust the next time, and so it is important to keep that ability to trust alive and awake and ready. Fran????

DL Hegel
12-30-2009, 03:47 PM
To the Mods: I have no idea where this thread should go, but since it stemmed from a P&CE thread, I kept it here.


In a recent thread, the topic of love and sex came up.

Is one more important than the other?

One enhances the other. Both together are divine
Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?

Yes and no. The second kind seems to last longer.
Is love fleeting, or timeless?

Depends on the lover and the loved. Ask if you can love against your better judgement and sometimes your own will?
What is true love?

Something that can bring you to happiness or madness if is not the right person...but better on it...it should be easy and it should make both people better in mind body and spirit...
Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?

Depends on the value both parties put on it.
Do we equate lust with love?

I think some people do. Lust to me is wanting to go to bed with the other---love is not wanting to climb out the bathroom window to avoid giving them your phone number.

Is that wrong?


Love and lust can both be wrong...if it leaves you worse for wear .

Can one really "fall in love"?

Yes but it involves bruises...
And so many other questions.

Everyone seems to have a different perception as to what love means to them.

So I ask - What does love mean to you?

Exactly what both parties put into it....unrequited love is an illusion. Because if it is not mutual, does it exist? If two people love each other but one or the other is unwilling to do anything about it...is it real at all? No....

Alpha Echo
12-30-2009, 04:23 PM
Why I don't think anything just happens.



The law of love itself is universal. Human beings are fleeting, and so is their love. But timelessness is an attribute of love -- when one loves, they necessarily love timelessly; time is insignificant.



Love is a kind of passion -- if you simply mean "the hots", these hot spots differ between couples and can very possibly last all of a lifetime.



It's not wrong or right. Lust is most often an urgent expression of love of the self.



I've always pictured "falling in love" as, say, my spirit falling from my body into the beloved's, while the beloved's spirit is in my body. Then upon creating bliss and high tension in every part of the body, our spirits consent and are free to leave and return whenever.

My other feeling is that the sensation of "falling in love" is the sensation of the past and future fading from importance. How sweet the sound of that!




AMC

I just wanted to repost this because I like it. This thread has actually made me do a lot of thinking. I've enjoyed this thread. :)

Alpha Echo
12-30-2009, 04:29 PM
I do think people can fall in love. My husband and I moved in together after knowing each other in RL for 3 days. Been together ever since. I am only happy when he is happy, and he is only happy when I am happy. It just works for us. I have never had to think about making it work, it just does.


Agreed. My late wife and I had our first date on February 7th, and were married on March 20th of that same year. We'd been married 15 very happy love-filled years before she was taken. Sometimes you just know it. Sometimes it just happens. When it does... Seize it.

Similar for me and mine. We're not married yet, but we know we will. I moved in after date 2 (after we'd been dating 5 days), and ever since we've said "I love you" and things like "When we get married..." I was the only person he dated since his divorce that met his family, including his daughter. So yeah...falling in love I think is possible because sometimes it's not even something you think about. It just happens. I don't think it always happens that way or has to happen that way, but for us it did.

Fran
12-30-2009, 04:41 PM
The more you are hurt the more difficult it is to trust the next time, and so it is important to keep that ability to trust alive and awake and ready. Fran????

You're right, but I'm also going to be a lot more particular. I'll be wanting reassurance he's sincere from now on, because saying things is easy but there's got to be action and effort to back it up.

And I'll ask for references. ;)

scarletpeaches
12-30-2009, 04:43 PM
When you know, you know. I see absolutely no point in waiting if it's right.

For me, it never has been right, but I need to stop myself punishing any current man for the sins of the ones who went before.

scarletpeaches, philosophical on two hours' sleep.

DL Hegel
12-30-2009, 04:52 PM
When you know, you know. I see see absolutely no point in waiting if it's right.

For me, it never has been right, but I need to stop myself punishing any current man for the sins of the ones who went before.

scarletpeaches, philosophical on two hours' sleep.

that makes sense. men and women both do that. too much baggage better left at the door. it's easier said than done, sometimes.

Alpha Echo
12-30-2009, 04:54 PM
that makes sense. men and women both do that. too much baggage better left at the door. it's easier said than done, sometimes.

Yeah, it is. Leaving the baggage at the door, getting over the hang-ups from past relationships, takes effort and patience from both parties. But it can be done.

scarletpeaches
12-30-2009, 04:56 PM
And I think my past relationships say more about my character judgement than they do about any faults in those men.

Ambrosia
12-30-2009, 04:56 PM
Is one more important than the other?

They're both important, but love is definitely the most important in my experience. You can have a physical relationship without love, but it won't be a long term thing; however, you can have a long term relationship that is deep with just love and no sex. I know because I've done it, along with every other Orthodox Jew. The divorce rate is less than 10%, and that's one reason.


Orthodox Jews don't have sex?

Ambrosia
12-30-2009, 04:58 PM
When you know, you know. I see see absolutely no point in waiting if it's right.

For me, it never has been right, but I need to stop myself punishing any current man for the sins of the ones who went before.

scarletpeaches, philosophical on two hours' sleep.

I wonder if there is another poem here...

I agree with you, SP. That is twice in two days. Is the sky falling yet? :tongue

quickWit
12-30-2009, 04:59 PM
Orthodox Jews don't have sex?

They do, but they don't enjoy it.










That was a joke. Don't get all pissy about it. :D

rhymegirl
12-30-2009, 05:21 PM
What's love got to do, got to do with it...

Just a little musical selection for your entertainment.

DL Hegel
12-30-2009, 05:22 PM
QW does anyone really need a reason to rough you up or give you an atomic wedgie?

DL Hegel
12-30-2009, 05:24 PM
What's love got to do, got to do with it...

Just a little musical selection for your entertainment.

you need a fringe dress and hinny shaking.

quickWit
12-30-2009, 05:29 PM
QW does anyone really need a reason to rough you up or give you an atomic wedgie?

I don't typically ask. I just assume they do it 'cause they're jealous.

quickWit
12-30-2009, 06:09 PM
Don't look now Kelly, but you've already got the shaking hinny thing.

:D

scarletpeaches
12-30-2009, 06:11 PM
I assume you mean 'hiney', 'hinny' being North of England slang for a young girl?

quickWit
12-30-2009, 06:16 PM
I assumed that too, Peach. I just didn't want to be rude.

:D

quickWit
12-30-2009, 06:19 PM
I'll have to let it out a bit first...

AryaT92
12-30-2009, 06:20 PM
Love is real, real is love,
Love is feeling, feeling love,
Love is wanting to be loved.
Love is touch, touch is love,
Love is reaching, reaching love,
Love is asking to be loved.
Love is you,
You and me,
Love is knowing,
We can be.
Love is free, free is love,
Love is living, living love,
Love is needing to be loved.


Posting for John Lennon because he's too busy.

scarletpeaches
12-30-2009, 06:22 PM
He was probably off his hairy tits on acid and Yoko when he wrote that.

James81
12-30-2009, 06:23 PM
Is one more important than the other?

Both are necessary, but they need not both be present at the same time...even in a relationship. And what I mean by the relationship point is that it's very normal for there to be moments when you just "love" your SO without wanting to have sex with them. And there are other moments when you just want to fuck them. And even though the love is always there, in that moment it's all about just getting your groove on.


Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?

I think of love like a seed. You plant it in the ground and sometimes it dies, sometimes it grows for a little while and dies, and if your lucky sometimes it'll grow into a giant oak, producing it's own seeds.

Cliche, I know, but true nonetheless.


Is love fleeting, or timeless?

I think the bands of love run deep, and I think that once you fall in love with someone (I mean really fall in love with someone), a part of you will always love them...even if it lies in a dormant place within you that you know you'll never reactivate.


What is true love?

All love is true. Some love is more or less selfish than others, though. And I think it's the less selfish (as opposed to selfless, because I don't think "selfless" love exists, even toward our children--although that's the closest I can imagine to getting to "selfless" IMO) love that you're probably referring to here as "true love."


Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?

Passion comes in waves, ebbs and flows. If you don't cultivate it, it won't come. But if you do and find new ways to cultivate it, you can keep the ebb and flow of passion going for the rest of your life.


Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?

I don't equate it with love. But there's nothing wrong with doing so. The only "wrong" in doing anything is saying that you are doing one thing when you are actually doing/feeling something else (i.e. lying to yourself).


Can one really "fall in love"?

Sure, why not?




So I ask - What does love mean to you?

Love, to me, is when all the butterflies and touchy feely stuff goes away (ebbs ;), there's something there that remains that says "I want to be with this person and treat them right."

quickWit
12-30-2009, 06:28 PM
The only "wrong" in doing anything is saying that you are doing one thing when you are actually doing/feeling something else (i.e. lying to yourself).

I'll have to remember that at my next bail hearing.

James81
12-30-2009, 06:37 PM
I'll have to remember that at my next bail hearing.

lol

Bah, you can be honest with yourself once you get out of jail. No need to be all honest at a moment like that. :tongue

rhymegirl
12-30-2009, 06:44 PM
you need a fringe dress and hinny shaking.

My fringe dress is at the cleaner's.

quickWit
12-30-2009, 06:47 PM
My fringe dress is at the cleaner's.

...and he gets to wear it whenever he wants. Just one of the many benefits of being a cleaner.

Yanno...fringe benefits.

*rimshot*





Anyone? Anyone?

*taps mic*

Is this thing on?

NeuroFizz
12-30-2009, 07:00 PM
Being a parent and experiencing the full love for one's progeny (which, unfortunately, doesn't resonate with all parents) makes a person realize that love for a spouse or partner is more malleable, more tenuous, more tedious (at times), and more needy (at times). It is also more physically connected because of the emotional-physical bond. Those parents who recognize the love for their children as a benchmark of "true" or "unconditional" love realize that love for a spouse/partner is formed of a very different summit, and one that may never measure as high, but certainly can have as much of a foundational base. And for those who choose to have children (which is in no way a prerequisite for or an automatic enhancement of spouse-partner love), the joy in making a human who is a biological blending of the two individuals is a powerful and loving expression of the bond between them. But the true nature of love between non-related individuals (genetically speaking) is revealed by the observation that even that love-bond between parent and child frequently is not enough to keep the two parents together, while (for most parents) the bond of the parent-child love is way more difficult to break, and is much more tramatic when it does give way.

So, what is love (for non-related individuals)? Hell if I know. But I do agree with Scarlet. It comes with a shift (or branching) of the pleasure center from exclusively inward-directed to partner-directed, so happiness becomes much more than a personal quest. And it is nurtured by a mutual support of each person's individuality as a critical foundation for the greater being of the relationship. And in love, the relationship becomes a chimeric being--there is no parasitic aspect to it.

rhymegirl
12-30-2009, 07:24 PM
...and he gets to wear it whenever he wants. Just one of the many benefits of being a cleaner.
Yanno...fringe benefits.

*rimshot*

Anyone? Anyone?

*taps mic*

Is this thing on?

*groans*

That cleaner better not wear my dress and stretch it all out.

I wonder if dry cleaners ever actually do that. Try on our clothes?

kayleamay
12-30-2009, 08:21 PM
I'm going to answer the OP, because I skimmed over something about the bunny and a fringe dress and my mind is not willing to go there right now.

For me, love is a number of things that all work in concert. It is acceptance, support, admiration, devotion and a true desire for the other person to be happy. It is a willingness to sacrifice without resentment. I do think there are differences between the love for a child and the love for a mate, but I think the similarities outnumber them greatly. In either case, love means I'll give you a kidney if you need one, I'll put up with your crap because I know it's only a small part of who you are and I'll have dinner on the table at 6:00.

R.G. Alexander
12-30-2009, 08:58 PM
I'm going to answer the OP, because I skimmed over something about the bunny and a fringe dress and my mind is not willing to go there right now.

For me, love is a number of things that all work in concert. It is acceptance, support, admiration, devotion and a true desire for the other person to be happy. It is a willingness to sacrifice without resentment. I do think there are differences between the love for a child and the love for a mate, but I think the similarities outnumber them greatly. In either case, love means I'll give you a kidney if you need one, I'll put up with your crap because I know it's only a small part of who you are and I'll have dinner on the table at 6:00.


This. So totally this to me anyhow.

scarletpeaches
12-30-2009, 09:04 PM
Wait...would dinner be the kidney?

semilargeintestine
12-30-2009, 09:07 PM
Orthodox Jews don't have sex?

Before marriage, no.

After marriage, very much so. :D

ad_lucem
12-30-2009, 09:34 PM
He was probably off his hairy tits on acid and Yoko when he wrote that.

Ah, how much of human profundity is the product of funny plants and illicit pharmaceuticals?

No idea where Yoko fits in, but... I'm mostly in agreement with your assessment of the situation :D

groovyville
12-30-2009, 09:41 PM
Is one more important than the other?
Love is more important because you can love anybody (brotherly love, family love, romantic love). And when the other is gone, love is what's left, and it's the love that matters, not the physical stuff.


Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
I would say it's both
Sometimes love develops gradually, and other times you find yourself "falling" for someone you never thought you would. Sometimes you see it coming, and sometimes you don't.


Is love fleeting, or timeless?
It depends on what kind of love it is
You can love someone one day and then hate them the next, but that means that it wasn't a very deep love. The deeper the love the longer it lasts, and true love IS timeless.


What is true love?
True love is love that two people who were meant to be together share.
I believe that there's a person out there for everyone, and hence every person can find true love someday.
True love is forever, and unconditional.
True love is when you can love the person even when they're old a crusty and all the things you thought made them beautiful/handsome are gone but yet you still see them as beautiful because you love them.
When you truly love someone, you want to make them happy, even if it means giving up some things that make you happy.
True love isn't forced or concocted, but just blossoms naturally.
True love is forgiving, pure, and unbreakable.

like Jesus' love for humanity, true love is willing to give it's life for the sake of the one it loves.


Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
It could last a lifetime I think, if you found your soul mate, but for the most part I think it flares and dies.


Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
Yes many people do, I do think it's wrong because it confuses people and makes them think they're in love when they're not. Love is much more complex and much more deep than lust- and that's very important.


Can one really "fall in love"?
Of course you can,
A moment can sometimes just hit where you see someone you've known forever in a new light and all of a sudden you find yourself head-over-heels for them.



So I ask - What does love mean to you?
(along with the things I listed about true love)
Love is unexplainable, irrational, and often uncontrollable.
Love is blinding, beyond reason, and beautiful.
God is love

rhymegirl
12-30-2009, 11:11 PM
Before marriage, no.

After marriage, very much so. :D

Hmm. I hope I'm not being offensive here, but...

How do the two people know if they're sexually compatible if they can't have sex before marriage?

I think it would be horrible to find out you're not sexually compatible after you've gotten married.

kayleamay
12-30-2009, 11:25 PM
Wait...would dinner be the kidney?


It might be if the economy doesn't turn around.

scope
12-30-2009, 11:34 PM
Love is when you like someone or something so much, IT'S JUST CRAZY.

semilargeintestine
12-30-2009, 11:38 PM
Hmm. I hope I'm not being offensive here, but...

How do the two people know if they're sexually compatible if they can't have sex before marriage?

I think it would be horrible to find out you're not sexually compatible after you've gotten married.

I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I assume you mean similar sex drives, liking the same stuff, etc.

While the man's sex drive is important, orthodox Judaism holds that the woman is the one who decides when to have sex. The husband can't refuse, and can't press the issue if she isn't in the mood. There is also a minimum number of times per week he must "pleasure" her, which depends on his job and commute time. If either of them stop engaging in sex, however, there is always divorce. That is a legitimate reason to divorce, and while it might be suggested that they try to work it out, no beis din would refuse a divorce because of that issue. Sex is very important to Shalom Bayis.

As far as enjoying the same stuff, there are differing opinions about what kind of sexual stuff is permissible. There are orthodox opinions that say anything is acceptable so long as vaginal sex isn't excluded (this is how most people hold), and then there are opinions that say you can only have sex at night with the lights off in the missionary position without any talking (while some people may do this, it's not the halacha).

I guess if it wasn't working out, you could just get divorced. But, the divorce rate in Orthodox Judaism is around 5%. It has risen as high as 10% in the mid to late 90s, but that was considered a crisis. As far as I know, it has gone back down. So, that would indicate that it probably isn't as big a problem as one might think. Divorce is entirely permitted in Judaism, and it doesn't carry nearly the stigma it does in other religious communities/circles, so I doubt it's a product of people just sucking it up.

AryaT92
12-30-2009, 11:39 PM
Love is dangerous.

KellyAssauer
12-31-2009, 01:40 AM
Love means:
Never having to say your sorry - while you fill out the restraining order.
Never having to say: Whaddya mean since were married he can use my credit card?
or
Never having to say: Did you ask before you borrowed my shoes?

Don Allen
12-31-2009, 01:49 AM
I sort of look at love as in the moment. The more moments you can put together the stronger the love, for example: I love lobster, but once the tail has been devoured the craving is gone and satisfaction has been achieved the love subsides.

Until the next tail comes around....... Kind of says it all....

som1luvsmi
12-31-2009, 02:03 AM
I guess I should answer my own questions.:)

Is one (love and sex) more important than the other?
I think that, like most things, that depends on the individual. For me, love is. In my case, when there is sex without love, I'm no longer me. I'm trying to be someone I'm not, and that ends up destroying me a little at a time.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
I think that a love that lasts is one that grows and changes over time.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?
Depends on the person. Some people aren't meant for things that are long term. It's just not in their nature. Some are born for a love that doesn't end.

What is true love?
Again, I think that it's probably dependent on the person. It can be an instant all encompassing feeling for one person, and a natural level of comfort and security for another.
For me, true love is the one that you exalt in when times are good, the one that you cling to when times are bad, and that lets you know that, come hell or high water, that person will always be at your side.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
I think it can. I don't think that it's an eternal flame that never wavers, though. Like any fire, it needs fuel and tending in order to keep going.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
I think that people do mix them up and too often try to build a relationship around lust and I don't think that that is a solid enough foundation for something that you want to last.

Can one really "fall in love"?
No. I think people can fall into lust, be instantly attracted to someone, but I consider "falling" to be an unconscious action, while "love" is a conscious one.

Everyone seems to have a different perception as to what love means to them.
So I ask - What does love mean to you?

I've always aspired to 1 Corinthians 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013:4-7&version=NIV) and Sonnet 116 (http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/116.html). These two pretty much sum it up for me.

And thank you to all who have posted your thoughts in this thread. It's wonderful to see everyone's ideas. Keep'em coming! :D

rhymegirl
12-31-2009, 02:03 AM
and then there are opinions that say you can only have sex at night with the lights off in the missionary position without any talking

Wow. Just wow.

I wouldn't last long with this rule.

R.G. Alexander
12-31-2009, 02:09 AM
Wow. Just wow.

I wouldn't last long with this rule.

Me either. Ick.

ad_lucem
12-31-2009, 02:25 AM
Love means:
Never having to say your sorry - while you fill out the restraining order.
Never having to say: Whaddya mean since were married he can use my credit card?
or
Never having to say: Did you ask before you borrowed my shoes?

Never let the husband borrow your high-heel pumps, they always stretch them out terribly. That's one rule to live by.

Ruv Draba
12-31-2009, 02:28 AM
Is one more important than the other?
Sex costs you a paycheque. Love costs you a house. Do the math.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
For me, sex always just happens. You'll be pushing a trolley through the pet-food aisle then suddenly -- BAM!

Love though, is deliberate. It involves breakfast and dinner and relatives and laundry.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?
Sex is timeless. If it hasn't made you late for something, you've probably rushed it.

Love though, is timeful. You notice every new line on your lover's face.

What is true love?
Laughing when your lover belches in your mouth.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
Your passion is your lifetime. The rest is just biology.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
Lust is to love as fashion is to sewing.

Can one really "fall in love"?
One falls into besotted; one climbs into love.

What does love mean to you?
Having four eyes to see, two minds to think, and one heart to feel.

rhymegirl
12-31-2009, 03:57 AM
Love though, is timeful. You notice every new line on your lover's face.

I like this one. Very nice. When you've seen his/her face many times close up, you definitely notice any changes. (if you're paying attention.)



Laughing when your lover belches in your mouth.

This one, not so good. I'd rather he belched into the air.

som1luvsmi
12-31-2009, 06:27 AM
What does love mean to you?
Having four eyes to see, two minds to think, and one heart to feel.

I. LOVE. THIS. ^^^

Silver King
12-31-2009, 06:46 AM
Love is a many splendored thing. I didn't make up that phrase, just picked it up along the way.

I've experienced true love, and still hold that fire within my breast as surely as my heart beats at this very moment and every breath I take starts from the depths of my soul where that love resides and gives meaning to an otherwise squalid existence.

Put another way, I was a straw man until she fleshed out my spirit and pumped blood into my veins and brought me fully to life.

That, to me, describes true love, when we are ignited beyond ourselves and fused to another person, willfully and with abandon, and where nothing can come between the bond we've created that keeps us tethered as a single living force.

Rowan
12-31-2009, 07:21 AM
Posted by Ruv Draba:
What does love mean to you?
Having four eyes to see, two minds to think, and one heart to feel.


I. LOVE. THIS. ^^^

So do I! :)

scarletpeaches
12-31-2009, 09:51 AM
Hmm. I hope I'm not being offensive here, but...

How do the two people know if they're sexually compatible if they can't have sex before marriage?

I think it would be horrible to find out you're not sexually compatible after you've gotten married.I never believe it when someone says no one of a particular religion has sex before marriage.

Sure, it might be a basic teaching. Sure, the majority may even adhere to that rule, but all of them?

Pfft.

aruna
12-31-2009, 11:02 AM
Hmm. I hope I'm not being offensive here, but...

How do the two people know if they're sexually compatible if they can't have sex before marriage?

I think it would be horrible to find out you're not sexually compatible after you've gotten married.

To some people, sexual compatability just isn't that important.




True love is love that two people who were meant to be together share.
I believe that there's a person out there for everyone, and hence every person can find true love someday.
True love is forever, and unconditional.
True love is when you can love the person even when they're old a crusty and all the things you thought made them beautiful/handsome are gone but yet you still see them as beautiful because you love them.
When you truly love someone, you want to make them happy, even if it means giving up some things that make you happy.
True love isn't forced or concocted, but just blossoms naturally.
True love is forgiving, pure, and unbreakable.

like Jesus' love for humanity, true love is willing to give it's life for the sake of the one it loves.



Love is blinding, beyond reason, and beautiful.
God is love

With this, I agree. ALso with the Corinthians 13 reference.




Love though, is timeful. You notice every new line on your lover's face.

.

Loved all your ansers, Ruv!


I never believe it when someone says no one of a particular religion has sex before marriage.

Sure, it might be a basic teaching. Sure, the majority may even adhere to that rule, but all of them?

Pfft.
Sorry to disillusion you, SP, but ot this day millions of Hindus and Muslims marry without even seeing each other in advance! And yes, many of those marriages are very sound ones.

scarletpeaches
12-31-2009, 11:09 AM
Yes, millions. ALL Hindus and Muslims, virgins when they marry? No.

aruna
12-31-2009, 11:20 AM
Yes, millions. ALL Hindus and Muslims, virgins when they marry? No.
Well, obviously not every last one of them. But, as with the orthodox Jews, the exceptions reinforce the rule.

Wayne K
12-31-2009, 11:29 AM
How did sex get into a thread about love?

KellyAssauer
12-31-2009, 03:18 PM
How did sex get into a thread about love?

The same way it always does. Someone paid for it. (Of course, discretion won't allow me to go into the details, but lets just say that it was an appropriate, if not lovingly generous proposition... )

semilargeintestine
12-31-2009, 07:25 PM
Wow. Just wow.

I wouldn't last long with this rule.

Um, wow. Way to snip the quote completely out of context. If you quoted the rest of it, it says that is ONE opinion that is NOT Jewish Law and that the majority of people don't hold by it. Most normal people couldn't stand that sort of regulation and restrictions on sex, even us religious zealots. ;)

rhymegirl
12-31-2009, 09:33 PM
To some people, sexual compatability just isn't that important.

I think it's very important in a marriage. It certainly explains why there are so many divorces. (the two people have different needs)

My husband always says that if a couple doesn't care about sex they shouldn't bother getting married. They're really only just friends.

scarletpeaches
12-31-2009, 09:38 PM
I agree with your husband.

BradyH1861
12-31-2009, 09:42 PM
I believe Kelly Bundy (from Married With Children) said it best:

"It is better to have loved and lost than to never have watched Lost In Space at all."

One of my favorite movies is Love Story. Anytime I get in trouble, I always tell my wife "Love means never having to say you're sorry."

Would you believe that line doesn't work in real life? Shocking.

groovyville
12-31-2009, 09:44 PM
Personally I think that if two people who love each other are meant to be together, then they'll be compatible. I think sex is just the sprinkles on a great relationship, and that people can live without it. I think too many people focus on the sex part of relationships instead of the friendship behind them.

When you're with the same guy till you're 105, when you're that old, you're not going to be thinking about sleeping with him, you're going to be thinking about how much you love them and how they are your best friend in the entire world.

scarletpeaches
12-31-2009, 09:45 PM
Speak for yourself.

ad_lucem
12-31-2009, 10:02 PM
How did sex get into a thread about love?


It's sneaky. Slips in when you least expect it.

Kind of like the Spanish Inquisition...

http://blog.willamette.edu/people/klutz/journal/archives/spanish_inquisition.jpg

aruna
12-31-2009, 10:06 PM
I think it's very important in a marriage. It certainly explains why there are so many divorces. (the two people have different needs)


My husband always says that if a couple doesn't care about sex they shouldn't bother getting married. They're really only just friends.
Well, that's one viewpoint, and I agree that if it's about inability to fulfill mutual needs, then the marriage is not on good footing. But if one views sex less as the fulfillment of needs, and more as the giving of oneself to the other, (which is how I look at it) the perspective changes. There are many excellent marriages in which sex plays a minor role, or simply fades into the background, and where friendship is more important.

And, speaking of love, and true love, and the durability of love: there is always the consideration that sex for one reason draws to a close. What if your partner has an accident and ends up paralysed? What if your gorgeour wife gets breast cancer and loses a breast? What if.... a thousand what ifs.... if sex is that vital then partners really musr ask themselves if they are prepared tostick with ech other in sickness as well as in health, with or without sex. That IMO is the real test of love.




Personally I think that if two people who love each other are meant to be together, then they'll be compatible. I think sex is just the sprinkles on a great relationship, and that people can live without it. I think too many people focus on the sex part of relationships instead of the friendship behind them.

When you're with the same guy till you're 105, when you're that old, you're not going to be thinking about sleeping with him, you're going to be thinking about how much you love them and how they are your best friend in the entire world.

QFT.
I know for a fact that (let's say, a young, still unattached me!) I found true love with a person I would not worry even one moment about sexual compatability. It's the love that carries the sex, not vice versa.

EFCollins
01-01-2010, 01:03 AM
Is one (love and sex) more important than the other?


What a question. To me, sex is extremely important, while the other is a fairytale made up by hopeless romantics who can't live with reality. (Sorry people who believe in love) Love is what you feel for your children and relatives. Adult relationships (meaning companionship) are not the result of love. And sex better be pretty frigging important.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?


Again, love is felt for children, parents, etc. Between two people who are not related, love doesn't exist. So no, it doesn't just happen.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?


It flees timelessly.

What is true love?

Big sales for Disney?

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?

Passion as in what? I have a passion for writing. It will last my lifetime, I'm sure. Sexual attraction? I guess it does too. Though I hate my soon to be ex with a passion (pun intended) I'd still jump in the sack with him. He do know what him's doing in there. *nods*

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?

Yes. And yes.

Can one really "fall in love"?

No.

What does love mean to you?

Real love is something you do. You love your family. People who say "I love my job"... no, you like your job. You love your kids. For me, love between two adults doesn't exist. Relationships are so much more than love. The level of caring, understanding... love just isn't the right word. To me, it never has been. Relationships are not just love and sex. They take more, are more and should be more. If they aren't more, then what you have is no better two teenagers still groping at each other and trying to understand an adult relationship. It's work, it's pain, it's suffering, it's joy. It goes far beyond "love" and sex.

R.G. Alexander
01-01-2010, 01:10 AM
It's sneaky. Slips in when you least expect it.

Kind of like the Spanish Inquisition...

http://blog.willamette.edu/people/klutz/journal/archives/spanish_inquisition.jpg


No one expects the Spanish Inquisition

kalel32
01-01-2010, 01:14 AM
Love: for your spouse = butterflies in your stomach every time you see them
for you kids = life altering, reality changing, unconditional love. Who else would you wipe pooh for?

EFCollins
01-01-2010, 01:20 AM
Butterflies? Really?

I don't mean to sound cynical, but that does sound a trifle... well, wrong.

My opposition isn't feeling love for your spouse. My opposition is to the blanket term "love" used to describe all the aspects f a meaningful, well balanced relationship. I do love my ex-husband. But loving is not all I do. (Doesn't mean I want to live with him anymore LOL) To me, the "love" felt (a person can "love" many people, friends, family etc) is the smallest aspect to a good relationship (which is WHY I'm getting a divorce ;))

misselainie
01-01-2010, 01:30 AM
I'm paraphrasing somebody here, and if I knew who, I'd love to give them credit:

Love is that condition in which the happiness and wellbeing of someone else is more important to you than your own.

That works for all kinds of love, maternal, romantic, etc. If you add lust to the above, it's called romantic love. I think that, quite often, unrealistic expectations about relationships and "love" doom couples before they ever had a chance. Lifelong romantic love is very, very rare. It requires that both parties change and grow and learn along parallel paths over years and years AND remain physically attractive to one another. What are the odds, really?

JLCwrites
01-01-2010, 03:47 AM
Love is different for each person. Therefore it is important to find the person who expresses it the same way you do and also wants to express it WITH you. (Including sex)

LOG
01-02-2010, 11:03 PM
Love is the state of being in which one wishes to spend time with another person. Most usually accompanied by a desire for interaction, sometimes mutual, sometimes not.

Ambrosia
01-03-2010, 05:18 PM
Personally I think that if two people who love each other are meant to be together, then they'll be compatible. I think sex is just the sprinkles on a great relationship, and that people can live without it. I think too many people focus on the sex part of relationships instead of the friendship behind them.

When you're with the same guy till you're 105, when you're that old, you're not going to be thinking about sleeping with him, you're going to be thinking about how much you love them and how they are your best friend in the entire world.[Bolding mine.]

Perhaps when a person is 105 they will stop thinking about sex. However, I kind of doubt that, as long as one's body is still able to have sex. To me, within marriage, sex is an act of love, a desire to share all of yourself that you can with your spouse, and it is a beautiful gift to one another. And, when it is done right, if feels good too. Bonus. ;)

I don't think age has anything to do with it, in this day of knowledge when both men and women can find aids to get past the ravages of time.

regdog
01-03-2010, 05:29 PM
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/regdog/truelovenothavingabs.jpg

Ambrosia
01-03-2010, 06:39 PM
Hahahaha! Love it, Heather. :D

R.G. Alexander
01-03-2010, 08:33 PM
Awww!

aruna
01-04-2010, 02:05 PM
while the other is a fairytale made up by hopeless romantics who can't live with reality. (Sorry people who believe in love)
It flees timelessly.

?.

I couldn't agree with you more, as far as romantic love, ie "love" powered and instigated by sexual attraction, is concerned. I believe it is a sham, allbeit a delicious sham; romantic love feels great, just about everyone hungers for it, and the mistake people make is in believing it to be the real thing. This is the point where your "big sales for Disney" is entirely appropriate. But it is by nature sentimental, emotional, without true substance. It's a beginning, not an end.


Again, love is felt for children, parents, etc. Between two people who are not related, love doesn't exist. So no, it doesn't just happen.



Why ever not? Why should love be dependant on being related to a person? Surely love can go wherever it wants to. And if "being related" is so significant, what about adopted children? Is the love of their parents not real?

For me, love is love, whether for children, parents, a partner or a friend, it is the same, coloured and limited only by my own limitations and my ability to feel it in all its strength; love for a partner is limited, in the beginning, by the sham of romance, but it can grow into something big and deep and true.




[Bolding mine.]

Perhaps when a person is 105 they will stop thinking about sex. However, I kind of doubt that, as long as one's body is still able to have sex. To me, within marriage, sex is an act of love, a desire to share all of yourself that you can with your spouse, and it is a beautiful gift to one another. And, when it is done right, if feels good too. Bonus. ;)

I don't think age has anything to do with it, in this day of knowledge when both men and women can find aids to get past the ravages of time.

God forbid that the pressure to have constant sex several times a week/day, and the self-doubt that comes when you can't or don't want to, should continue up into old age! The "ravages of time" bring fruits of a different kind, and it's only natural that the pleasures of youth should give way to other sources of joy and fulfillment -- if we so decide. Says one who cannot wait to turn 60!

Ambrosia
01-04-2010, 05:26 PM
I couldn't agree with you more, as far as romantic love, ie "love" powered and instigated by sexual attraction, is concerned. I believe it is a sham, allbeit a delicious sham; romantic love feels great, just about everyone hungers for it, and the mistake people make is in believing it to be the real thing. This is the point where your "big sales for Disney" is entirely appropriate. But it is by nature sentimental, emotional, without true substance. It's a beginning, not an end.

<snipped>

God forbid that the pressure to have constant sex several times a week/day, and the self-doubt that comes when you can't or don't want to, should continue up into old age! The "ravages of time" bring fruits of a different kind, and it's only natural that the pleasures of youth should give way to other sources of joy and fulfillment -- if we so decide. Says one who cannot wait to turn 60!

I am a romantic. I believe in romantic love. I believe romantic love can be a beginning, a middle, and last through to the end. It just has to be with another romantic to last.

I will turn 55 in March. I fully intend to be sexually active as long as I can, as long as he can. God forbid that I would have to stop having sex at 60. You say "pressure" to have constant sex. If it is pressure then it is not love. Love is given freely without pressure.

I have had those "other sources" of joy and fulfillment for over a decade now. Give me mind-blowing, passionate love making with the man I love any day of the week.

Alpha Echo
01-04-2010, 05:56 PM
While the man's sex drive is important, orthodox Judaism holds that the woman is the one who decides when to have sex. The husband can't refuse, and can't press the issue if she isn't in the mood. There is also a minimum number of times per week he must "pleasure" her, which depends on his job and commute time. If either of them stop engaging in sex, however, there is always divorce. QUOTE]

That seems like a lot of rules and regulations tacked onto something that should just be done in a marriage naturally, out of love, need, and desire. IMO.

[QUOTE=Ruv Draba;4426599]What does love mean to you?
Having four eyes to see, two minds to think, and one heart to feel.

I don't know how I feel about everything else you said, but I agree with this and love it. :)


Love is a many splendored thing. I didn't make up that phrase, just picked it up along the way.

I've experienced true love, and still hold that fire within my breast as surely as my heart beats at this very moment and every breath I take starts from the depths of my soul where that love resides and gives meaning to an otherwise squalid existence.

Put another way, I was a straw man until she fleshed out my spirit and pumped blood into my veins and brought me fully to life.

That, to me, describes true love, when we are ignited beyond ourselves and fused to another person, willfully and with abandon, and where nothing can come between the bond we've created that keeps us tethered as a single living force.

Simply beautiful.


Love is more important because you can love anybody (brotherly love, family love, romantic love). And when the other is gone, love is what's left, and it's the love that matters, not the physical stuff.


I would say it's both
Sometimes love develops gradually, and other times you find yourself "falling" for someone you never thought you would. Sometimes you see it coming, and sometimes you don't.


It depends on what kind of love it is
You can love someone one day and then hate them the next, but that means that it wasn't a very deep love. The deeper the love the longer it lasts, and true love IS timeless.


True love is love that two people who were meant to be together share.
I believe that there's a person out there for everyone, and hence every person can find true love someday.
True love is forever, and unconditional.
True love is when you can love the person even when they're old a crusty and all the things you thought made them beautiful/handsome are gone but yet you still see them as beautiful because you love them.
When you truly love someone, you want to make them happy, even if it means giving up some things that make you happy.
True love isn't forced or concocted, but just blossoms naturally.
True love is forgiving, pure, and unbreakable.

like Jesus' love for humanity, true love is willing to give it's life for the sake of the one it loves.


It could last a lifetime I think, if you found your soul mate, but for the most part I think it flares and dies.


Yes many people do, I do think it's wrong because it confuses people and makes them think they're in love when they're not. Love is much more complex and much more deep than lust- and that's very important.


Of course you can,
A moment can sometimes just hit where you see someone you've known forever in a new light and all of a sudden you find yourself head-over-heels for them.


(along with the things I listed about true love)
Love is unexplainable, irrational, and often uncontrollable.
Love is blinding, beyond reason, and beautiful.
God is love

I could not agree more.


My husband always says that if a couple doesn't care about sex they shouldn't bother getting married. They're really only just friends.

I agree. Sex is vital.


Real love is something you do. You love your family. People who say "I love my job"... no, you like your job. You love your kids. For me, love between two adults doesn't exist. Relationships are so much more than love. The level of caring, understanding... love just isn't the right word. To me, it never has been. Relationships are not just love and sex. They take more, are more and should be more. If they aren't more, then what you have is no better two teenagers still groping at each other and trying to understand an adult relationship. It's work, it's pain, it's suffering, it's joy. It goes far beyond "love" and sex.

I think I get what you're saying, but...no, I don't. I understand that you're saying love in a marriage should be so much more, but...how else do you explain it? It totally agree that too often we say "I love this," or "I love that." It's kind of like saying "I'm sorry" for every little thing that isn't even your fault. It loses its meaning. I agree that relationships are so much more, but all of that "more" should be in the definition of love.


Love: for your spouse = butterflies in your stomach every time you see them


I don't agree. You don't need those butterflies. I had them with my ex, but I think it was nerves because I was always walking on eggshells with him. I'm not saying that it's nerves for you, but now, in my current relationship with a man who will be my second husband later this year, I don't feel butterflies. He and I are so in synch and so completely at ease with each other that there's no need for butterflies. That doesn't mean I'm not happy to see him when I get home, but he's just there. We're just always there for each other, so the wonder and antipation, the not knowing and insecurities that gave me butterflies before no longer does.


If you add lust to the above, it's called romantic love. I think that, quite often, unrealistic expectations about relationships and "love" doom couples before they ever had a chance. Lifelong romantic love is very, very rare. It requires that both parties change and grow and learn along parallel paths over years and years AND remain physically attractive to one another. What are the odds, really?

I agree, sadly. I wish lifelong romantic love was more common. I hope I've found it now, but I'll never know without taking that leap and the chance my heart will be broken again.


Love is different for each person. Therefore it is important to find the person who expresses it the same way you do and also wants to express it WITH you. (Including sex)

Well said. Very well said. Ever read The Five Love Languages?


I am a romantic. I believe in romantic love. I believe romantic love can be a beginning, a middle, and last through to the end. It just has to be with another romantic to last.

I will turn 55 in March. I fully intend to be sexually active as long as I can, as long as he can. God forbid that I would have to stop having sex at 60. You say "pressure" to have constant sex. If it is pressure then it is not love. Love is given freely without pressure.

I have had those "other sources" of joy and fulfillment for over a decade now. Give me mind-blowing, passionate love making with the man I love any day of the week.

Amen! lol

I love this thread. I really do. But then, I'm a hopeless romantic myself. :)

aruna
01-04-2010, 06:11 PM
I love this thread. I really do. But then, I'm a hopeless romantic myself. :)
So am I, believe it or not! Yet still I can recognise the ephemeral nature of romantic love, and feel (for myself) the need for something more. But I still love reading, and writing, about romantic love. May it live forever!


God forbid that I would have to stop having sex at 60. You say "pressure" to have constant sex. If it is pressure then it is not love. Love is given freely without pressure.

I have had those "other sources" of joy and fulfillment for over a decade now. Give me mind-blowing, passionate love making with the man I love any day of the week.

We all are different. The fact is that many women lose their libido after menopause, though not necessarily their love for their partner. To tell them that they have a "disorder" and must revive their sex drive, take hormones, and so on to revive something they don't miss is indeed pressure. And there is a very strong social pressure for women to be eternally young, eternally sexy, and a huge disdain for those who do not live up to that ideal.

As for the others sources of fulfillment: just maybe the ones you tried are not the same ones that invigorate me. I can truly say that, much as I loved romance as a young woman, I have no regrets that that part of me has gone. It has given way to something better.

James81
01-04-2010, 06:36 PM
Personally I think that if two people who love each other are meant to be together, then they'll be compatible. I think sex is just the sprinkles on a great relationship, and that people can live without it. I think too many people focus on the sex part of relationships instead of the friendship behind them.

I actually disagree.

I think that most of society TRIES to believe this because, well, it SOUNDS good. It sounds good to believe that you've transcended your own physical desires for some greater, more "spiritual" (of sorts) purpose. And I believe that society (and people in general) say things like this because, well, it's the "right" thing to say to make it seem like we aren't highly driven by our sexual natures. In a society that lauds violence over sexuality, saying that you can suppress your sexuality makes us feel good about ourselves (supposedly).

Best example I can think of is that in all forms of mass media, sexuality is HIGHLY HIGHLY censored. It's not ok for us to see a penis or a vagina on the TV (or talk sexually on the radio), but we think nothing of watching a guy take a machine gun and slaughter hundreds of people. We think nothing of using "war-like" terms to describe our daily lives and business goals.

So, in that vein, I think people don't pay attention ENOUGH to the sex part of relationships. I think people get into relationships with people where they have a good friendship-like connection, but the sex can be subpar, and then waste years in the relationship trying to "overcome" the sex part, thinking that it's not that important and that it's something that can be "learned" over time. Not realizing that sex is just a big a part of compatibility as anything else.

But because of our "censored" view on sex, we are ashamed that an issue like sex could be the undoing of a relationship and we feel we must perform in that area or something is wrong with us. Being rejected on the basis of sex alone makes us insecure (in a way), and it's because of this censorship and pervading thought that sexuality isn't that important.

But the reality is that sex is about as an important need as hunger to us. The drive to have sex is something that's as strong as our desire to eat. And until we, as individuals, realize this and align ourselves with the truth behind it, we'll continue to be insecure about (and thus not enjoy) sex.

aruna
01-04-2010, 06:45 PM
I actually disagree.

I think that most of society TRIES to believe this because, well, it SOUNDS good. It sounds good to believe that you've transcended your own physical desires for some greater, more "spiritual" (of sorts) purpose. ....

But the reality is that sex is about as an important need as hunger to us. The drive to have sex is something that's as strong as our desire to eat. And until we, as individuals, realize this and align ourselves with the truth behind it, we'll continue to be insecure about (and thus not enjoy) sex.

James: your analysis is pretty typical, I think, of most people's assessments, but until you can actually live inside another person's skin you have no auhtority to judge whether or not they have suppressed sexual desire, or whether it was never strong in the first place, or whether they found it less fulfilling than its reputation and have simply left it behind.

The sex drive is not the same as hunger. You can live without sex; many do, some very happily indeed. Sex is vital for most people, true, but on an individual level it is just that, individual. You are using yourself, and the people that you know, as the measure for humans as a whole and it's just not like that.

James81
01-04-2010, 06:49 PM
James: your analysis is pretty typical, I think, of most people's assessments, but until you can actually live inside another person's skin you have no auhtority to judge whether or not they have suppressed sexual desire, or whether it was never strong in the first place, or whether they found it less fulfilling than its reputation and have simply left it behind.

The sex drive is not the same as hunger. You can live without sex; many do, some very happily indeed. Sex is vital for most people, true, but on an individual level it is just that, individual. You are using yourself, and the people that you know, as the measure for humans as a whole and it's just not like that.

But on the flip side, using your statement, it would be impossible for me to say that they do NOT supress sexual desire either. And, honestly, what other way is there to form opinions but by our own personal experiences and that of the people with whom we share our experiences with? Sure, there is scientific data out there, but when it comes to interpersonal relationships, I believe this is a case where experiences trump data.

But that's just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt. :D

Ambrosia
01-04-2010, 07:08 PM
I am a romantic. I believe in romantic love. I believe romantic love can be a beginning, a middle, and last through to the end. It just has to be with another romantic to last.

I will turn 55 in March. I fully intend to be sexually active as long as I can, as long as he can. God forbid that I would have to stop having sex at 60. You say "pressure" to have constant sex. If it is pressure then it is not love. Love is given freely without pressure.

I have had those "other sources" of joy and fulfillment for over a decade now. Give me mind-blowing, passionate love making with the man I love any day of the week.


So am I, believe it or not! Yet still I can recognise the ephemeral nature of romantic love, and feel (for myself) the need for something more. But I still love reading, and writing, about romantic love. May it live forever!



We all are different. The fact is that many women lose their libido after menopause, though not necessarily their love for their partner. To tell them that they have a "disorder" and must revive their sex drive, take hormones, and so on to revive something they don't miss is indeed pressure. And there is a very strong social pressure for women to be eternally young, eternally sexy, and a huge disdain for those who do not live up to that ideal.

As for the others sources of fulfillment: just maybe the ones you tried are not the same ones that invigorate me. I can truly say that, much as I loved romance as a young woman, I have no regrets that that part of me has gone. It has given way to something better.
I see an exact opposite, once a woman reaches a certain age. You have designated "60" as the age you no longer have to have sex. And look on it as a day to celebrate. I say any woman at any time can decide that is the day she will no longer have sex, whether she is 30, 60, or 90. It is a choice. It used to be that those women who lost their sex drive and their moisture due to menopause had no choice. Today, they do.

When an elderly couple walk down the street holding hands, people may smile and say, "oh how cute. They are still in love at their age." Those same people rarely think that couple could still be having hot sex in the privacy of their bedroom (or where ever they jointly decided to have hot sex). And if they did think that they would probably be grossed out because sex is supposed to be for the young. There is an expectation that as a couple ages the sexual aspect of their relationship is replaced by other things more important. I used to think that sex wasn't that important in a relationship. I was wrong.

I am not saying you have to agree with me. I am not saying that you have to choose to find a way to continue having sex past 59. All I am saying is that for all those women and men out there who want to continue loving their partners physically well into old age that they now have that choice. And what a beautiful choice it is. One I am personally very happy exists.

I am glad you have found sources of fulfillment that give you something beyond sex since you disparage of continuing with it past 60. Please don't think that just because I discovered those sources of fulfillment were not enough for me that I didn't have the right ones. I wish you happiness in your life path.

lucidzfl
01-04-2010, 07:10 PM
Is one more important than the other?
- I think that if you love someone, the other will happen naturally. Thus Love is more important.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
- Both :) You cannot truly love someone who doesn't love you back. In addition, love is like having the most important day job in history, it takes constant work and nuturing to keep alive.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?
- Both. See above answer.

What is true love?
- Holy shit I can't answer that.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
- See answer #2.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
- Most people mistakenly equate lust with love. Yes its wrong.

Can one really "fall in love"?
- I don't believe in love at first sight though. Love for me was a realization. In other words, I pined for my wife for MONTHS before I started dating her. Did I love her? No. We dated for several months and I thought she was great. Did I love her? No. It happened for me one day when I woke up next to her and saw her sleeping and thought I couldn't live without her. Thats when it hit me.

lucidzfl
01-04-2010, 07:23 PM
One of my favorite movies is Love Story. Anytime I get in trouble, I always tell my wife "Love means never having to say you're sorry."

Would you believe that line doesn't work in real life? Shocking.

LOL. I apologize on a Daily basis!

Hell, I'm about to send my wife a text apologizing, and she's not even out of the shower yet. I'm just sure I've already done something that requires it.

lucidzfl
01-04-2010, 07:24 PM
Love: for your spouse = butterflies in your stomach every time you see them
for you kids = life altering, reality changing, unconditional love. Who else would you wipe pooh for?

Yeah I uh, don't get butterflies everytime I see my wife. I get the SOMETIMES I see my wife, and after a few years, I think thats what love is.

som1luvsmi
01-04-2010, 07:46 PM
Is one more important than the other?
- I think that if you love someone, the other will happen naturally. Thus Love is more important.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
- Both :) You cannot truly love someone who doesn't love you back. In addition, love is like having the most important day job in history, it takes constant work and nuturing to keep alive.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?
- Both. See above answer.

What is true love?
- Holy shit I can't answer that.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
- See answer #2.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
- Most people mistakenly equate lust with love. Yes its wrong.

Can one really "fall in love"?
- I don't believe in love at first sight though. Love for me was a realization. In other words, I pined for my wife for MONTHS before I started dating her. Did I love her? No. We dated for several months and I thought she was great. Did I love her? No. It happened for me one day when I woke up next to her and saw her sleeping and thought I couldn't live without her. Thats when it hit me.


LOL. I apologize on a Daily basis!

Hell, I'm about to send my wife a text apologizing, and she's not even out of the shower yet. I'm just sure I've already done something that requires it.


Yeah I uh, don't get butterflies everytime I see my wife. I get the SOMETIMES I see my wife, and after a few years, I think thats what love is.

Who are you and what have you done with lucidzfl??? ;)

aruna
01-04-2010, 07:47 PM
But on the flip side, using your statement, it would be impossible for me to say that they do NOT supress sexual desire either. And, honestly, what other way is there to form opinions but by our own personal experiences and that of the people with whom we share our experiences with? Sure, there is scientific data out there, but when it comes to interpersonal relationships, I believe this is a case where experiences trump data.

But that's just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt. :D

Unles you have actually with an open mind met, spoken with, found respect for, such a person you really cannot judge.


I see an exact opposite, once a woman reaches a certain age. You have designated "60" as the age you no longer have to have sex. And look on it as a day to celebrate. I say any woman at any time can decide that is the day she will no longer have sex, whether she is 30, 60, or 90. It is a choice. It used to be that those women who lost their sex drive and their moisture due to menopause had no choice. Today, they do.

I am glad you have found sources of fulfillment that give you something beyond sex since you disparage of continuing with it past 60. Please don't think that just because I discovered those sources of fulfillment were not enough for me that I didn't have the right ones. I wish you happiness in your life path.

Oh dear, you have badly misunderstood! 60 is not the age I will stop having sex. I have not had sex for at least five years and don't miss it one little bit. 60 is the age when I can officially retire, and start living the life I long for; where all my energies and talents cna finally be lived out. I have great plans for my life after 60, and none of it involves romance and sex.

I'm not saying that you don't have the "right" sources of fulfillment. I am saying that there are several, and we need not limit them to sex.



When an elderly couple walk down the street holding hands, people may smile and say, "oh how cute. They are still in love at their age." Those same people rarely think that couple could still be having hot sex in the privacy of their bedroom (or where ever they jointly decided to have hot sex). And if they did think that they would probably be grossed out because sex is supposed to be for the young. There is an expectation that as a couple ages the sexual aspect of their relationship is replaced by other things more important. I used to think that sex wasn't that important in a relationship. I was wrong.

Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't. (having sex)
The three women in my life who have made the greatest impact, who I respect the most, in Some cases who turned my life around, were all old women who did not have sex.

One is my own mother, who I guarantee has not had sex, or an interest in men, since she divorced my father when I was three and she was 37. She has lived a full rich life, and only the other day an aunt of mine was beside herself with admiration for my mother and her energy; she is still engaged with a variety of projects inmy home country, and is as vital as vital can be. She lives all by herself and looks after herself in her own home. She will be 91 in one week's time.

The other was an Indian woman who blew my mind away. I met her in her old age; she died at 85 and she is the single most amazing and fulfilled woman I have ever known. She has never had sex.

The third is my friend Trudel, who lived with her husband until he died, looking after him for several years after he contracted Alzheimer's disease. She lives by herself in a house in the Alsation hills in France, all by herself, summer and winter, with only a household help who comes to cook for her and clean. Trudel turned 100 last July, and we still talk regularly on the phone. I know that though she and her husband had a loving relationship up until the end, they had not had sex for some time.

I remember when I was 25, and had fallen in love with a married man. I confided in her; and she told me: "Sharon, it is nothing. Believe me, it is nothing. Step aside from it, and you will see it is nothing."
And it was, indeed, nothing. She has been one of my strongest mentors; and like I said, she is almost 101.

I need to write a book: Life after Sex. A good title, I think...!

James81
01-04-2010, 07:50 PM
Unles you have actually met, spoken with, found respect for, such a person you really cannot judge.

Of course not.

But I don't think I *was* judging anybody, my friend.

lucidzfl
01-04-2010, 07:51 PM
Who are you and what have you done with lucidzfl??? ;)

haha! I've never made any bones about how I feel about my girl :)

lucidzfl
01-04-2010, 07:54 PM
Unles you have actually met, spoken with, found respect for, such a person you really cannot judge.



Oh dear, you have indeed got it wrong! 60 is not the age I will stop having sex. I have not had sex for at least five years and don't miss it one little bit. 60 is the age when I can officially retire, and start living the life I long for; where all my energies and talents cna finally be lived out. I have great plans for my life after 60, and none of it involves romance and sex!

I'm not saying that you don't have the "right" sources of fulfillment. I am saying that there are several, and we need not limit them to sex!


Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't. (having sex)
The three women in my life who have made the greatest impact, who I respect the most, in Some cases who turned my life around, were all old women who did not have sex.

One is my own mother, who I guarantee has not had sex, or an interest in men, since she divorced my father when I was three and she was 37. She has lived a full rich life, and only the other day an aunt of mine was beside herself with admiration for my mother and her energy; she is still engaged with a variety of projects inmy home country, and is as vital as vital can be. She lives all by herself and looks after herself in her own home. She will be 91 in one week's time.

The other was an Indian woman who blew my mind away. I met her in her old age; she died at 85 and she is the single most amazing and fulfilled woman I have ever known. She has never had sex.

The third is my friend Trudel, who lived with her husband until he died, looking after him for several years after he contracted Alzheimer's disease. She lives by herself in a house in the Alsation hills in France, all by herself, summer and winter, with only a household help who comes to cook for her and clean. Trudel turned 100 last July, and we still talk regularly on the phone. I know that though she and her husband had a loving relationship up until the end, they had not had sex for some time.

I remember when I was 25, and had fallen in love with a married man. I confided in her; and she told me: "Sharon, it is nothing. Believe me, it is nothing. Step aside from it, and you will see it is nothing."
And it was, indeed, nothing. She has been one of my strongest mentors; and like I said, she is 101.

I need to write a book: Life after Sex. A good title, I think!

Not for nothing, but when you're a hundred and you haven't had sex for thirty years, its a damn sight different than when you're sixty and haven't had it for thirty years. (Or even 5 years in your case.)

I know some women truly feel the way you do, that they don't care about, or miss sex. I can't say I feel sorry for you, because if you're happy, you're happy.

But for me, I just can't imagine it. But hey, my mom doesn't like seafood. I can't imagine living without it, so everyone's different.

ETA: Now that I'm in my thirties, I'll admit, I care LESS about it. Job stress, daily stress, responsibilities, and flat out running out of time make it more difficult, but I can't imagine going more than a week without it. Its a great stress reliever for one thing, and for another it really helps keep you connected to the person you care about. Forces you to do nothing but pay attention to each other for at least 15+ minutes.

Ambrosia
01-04-2010, 08:02 PM
And it is great exercise too. ;)

aruna
01-04-2010, 09:13 PM
Not for nothing, but when you're a hundred and you haven't had sex for thirty years, its a damn sight different than when you're sixty and haven't had it for thirty years. (Or even 5 years in your case.)

I met Trudel in 1973; she was -- ummm -- 63 at the time, the age we are now discussing. Her opinion on romantic love and sex was then as it is now; it was just two years later she gave me that advice that my great "love" was, really, no big deal. A fantasy.

She is one of the wisest women I have ever known. All these years. her house has been filled with visitors coming and going, mostly people much younger than herself, many young married couples with and without their children. They came to be near her, a truly happy person, and for her advice with their marital problems. She never thought that sex was the answer.


I know some women truly feel the way you do, that they don't care about, or miss sex. I can't say I feel sorry for you, because if you're happy, you're happy.

You should noy feel sorry for anyone who is different from you, if you do not know their circumstances. I feel that you would like to feel sorry for me, and that is just so wrong.

So everyone's different.
Exactly!


helps keep you connected to the person you care about. Forces you to do nothing but pay attention to each other for at least 15+ minutes.
Paying attention to that person is the be all and end all, with or without sex. I manage quite well without :)

kalel32
01-04-2010, 09:15 PM
Love is never forgetting to put the toilet seat down.

kayleamay
01-04-2010, 09:17 PM
Love is never forgetting to put the toilet seat down.

Spoken like a happily married man.

My husband is fond of, "Happy wife, happy life."

Lavern08
01-04-2010, 09:18 PM
Love is never forgetting to put the toilet seat down.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! ;)

lucidzfl
01-04-2010, 09:51 PM
I feel that you would like to feel sorry for me, and that is just so wrong.


Nope.




Paying attention to that person is the be all and end all, with or without sex. I manage quite well without :)


Sure, but if the person you're with DOES want sex, and you (Not "you", but person in general) do not provide it, you are not providing that person with what they want.

lucidzfl
01-04-2010, 09:52 PM
Love is never forgetting to put the toilet seat down.

That's why I pee in the sink. Because I love her.

semilargeintestine
01-04-2010, 09:53 PM
That seems like a lot of rules and regulations tacked onto something that should just be done in a marriage naturally, out of love, need, and desire. IMO.


Except that they often don't. If they did, the divorce rate wouldn't be around 50%. They should come naturally, but there are a hundred things that could get in the way of that. Having rules that ensure they happen regardless of what's going on in the world make those things irrelevant.

Say you have three kids and your wife (assume you're a man in this situation just because it's the first one I thought of) has to either quit her job, or she loses it for some reason. Now you have one income to feed five people. You have a mortgage, extremely high property taxes, shul dues, tuition for three kids to worry about, and now you have to squeeze even more out of your income.

It is very easy to see how the physical part of the relationship can be pushed aside. It happens to many relationships. However, if there is a set of rules that say no matter what, you have to keep this physical relationship going, it will still be there. So, while at times you may just be doing it because you have to, you will still be doing it, and it will help keep your relationship a little healthier until you can get back to doing it simply out of love.

The divorce rate in Orthodox Judaism is 5 percent. These rules that you find superfluous are a part of the reason for that.

lucidzfl
01-04-2010, 10:12 PM
Except that they often don't. If they did, the divorce rate wouldn't be around 50%. They should come naturally, but there are a hundred things that could get in the way of that. Having rules that ensure they happen regardless of what's going on in the world make those things irrelevant.

Say you have three kids and your wife (assume you're a man in this situation just because it's the first one I thought of) has to either quit her job, or she loses it for some reason. Now you have one income to feed five people. You have a mortgage, extremely high property taxes, shul dues, tuition for three kids to worry about, and now you have to squeeze even more out of your income.

It is very easy to see how the physical part of the relationship can be pushed aside. It happens to many relationships. However, if there is a set of rules that say no matter what, you have to keep this physical relationship going, it will still be there. So, while at times you may just be doing it because you have to, you will still be doing it, and it will help keep your relationship a little healthier until you can get back to doing it simply out of love.

The divorce rate in Orthodox Judaism is 5 percent. These rules that you find superfluous are a part of the reason for that.

I am at work, so I cannot give a link, but someone here should google about this. Some woman committed to having sex with her husband every day for a year. No matter whether it was long or short, happy or not, they did it.

It had interesting results.

Here's a spoiler: Her and her husband are happier than they've ever ever ever been.

It really is an interesting article though.

som1luvsmi
01-04-2010, 10:16 PM
That's why I pee in the sink. Because I love her.

THAT'S the lucidzfl I know. :D

Alpha Echo
01-04-2010, 10:36 PM
Love is never forgetting to put the toilet seat down.

My SO not only always puts the toilet seat down, but the cover as well! We both do. It's how we were raised.

*slight derail*

We had some guys over for poker, and I was so irritated b/c this grown-ass man comes over and left the toilet seat up everytime. What grown-ass adult man comes over to someone else's house - someone he hardly knows - he's a guest in OUR home, and can't even put the toilet seat down. Ugh.

*end derail*

Alpha Echo
01-04-2010, 10:38 PM
I am at work, so I cannot give a link, but someone here should google about this. Some woman committed to having sex with her husband every day for a year. No matter whether it was long or short, happy or not, they did it.

It had interesting results.

Here's a spoiler: Her and her husband are happier than they've ever ever ever been.

It really is an interesting article though.

I've heard of this, and we have a similar "policy," I guess you could say. We never turn each other down. There are times when neither one of us has time and/or energy (though those times are few and far between). But we never turn each other down. If he's not tired, but I am, I will have sex anyway - and you know what? A few minutes into it, I am sooooooooooooo thankful I gave it a go! ;)

I believe this contributes fully to our confidence in ourselves, in each other, in us as a couple. I absolutely believes this keeps us closer than any couple I know.

James81
01-04-2010, 10:40 PM
My SO not only always puts the toilet seat down, but the cover as well! We both do. It's how we were raised.

*slight derail*

We had some guys over for poker, and I was so irritated b/c this grown-ass man comes over and left the toilet seat up everytime. What grown-ass adult man comes over to someone else's house - someone he hardly knows - he's a guest in OUR home, and can't even put the toilet seat down. Ugh.

*end derail*

:roll:

I really never understood what the big deal was about this. It's a toilet seat. Up or down doesn't really make that much of a difference in the looks or cleanliness in the scheme of things.

I leave the toilet seat up all the time in my house (mainly because I am usually the only one living there at the moment) and I have never once had an "accident" and almost sat in the toilet. Why? Because when I walk into the bathroom I make a visual inspection of the toilet and assess what I need to do before I do my thing.

ETA: The full process of assessing what needs to happen and doing it takes all of about 4 seconds.

Alpha Echo
01-04-2010, 10:45 PM
:roll:

I really never understood what the big deal was about this. It's a toilet seat. Up or down doesn't really make that much of a difference in the looks or cleanliness in the scheme of things.

I leave the toilet seat up all the time in my house (mainly because I am usually the only one living there at the moment) and I have never once had an "accident" and almost sat in the toilet. Why? Because when I walk into the bathroom I make a visual inspection of the toilet and assess what I need to do before I do my thing.

ETA: The full process of assessing what needs to happen and doing it takes all of about 4 seconds.

Who wants to go into the bathroom to see the toilet seat wide open? Gross.

James81
01-04-2010, 10:48 PM
Who wants to go into the bathroom to see the toilet seat wide open? Gross.

A toilet implies grossness sweetie. lol

It's not like you are eyeing a Picasso painting or standing atop the Himalyas.

Alpha Echo
01-04-2010, 10:56 PM
A toilet implies grossness sweetie. lol

It's not like you are eyeing a Picasso painting or standing atop the Himalyas.

Ok, but it's just gross and impolite. :tongue

James81
01-04-2010, 11:03 PM
Ok, but it's just gross and impolite. :tongue

I think bowl water is beautiful. :tongue

Beautiful white porcellan with clear, cool water. It's like a tiny fountain...or a grand pearl-like throne.

lucidzfl
01-04-2010, 11:04 PM
I've heard of this, and we have a similar "policy," I guess you could say. We never turn each other down. There are times when neither one of us has time and/or energy (though those times are few and far between). But we never turn each other down. If he's not tired, but I am, I will have sex anyway - and you know what? A few minutes into it, I am sooooooooooooo thankful I gave it a go! ;)

I believe this contributes fully to our confidence in ourselves, in each other, in us as a couple. I absolutely believes this keeps us closer than any couple I know.

I freaking hate to say this but in my relationship, I'm usually the "tired" one. She's turned me down a handful of times I can ever think about.

But between work, sick animals, and writing and cooking, I have on average 30 minutes to an hour every day to do anything relaxing. (Not an exaturation)

Quite honestly, after getting up at 6:30, taking out cancer dog before she explodes in her crate, giving her the first gambit of her medications, feeding the fix, feeding the cat, feeding the other animals, taking a shower, going to work, coming home at 5 (or 6:30 if I have to do grocery shopping), sitting down, writing for an hour or two, making dinner, and finally sitting down to eat, its easily 9-10 pm. On tuesdays I have a 9pm conference call with malaysia that lasts until 12... So yeah, I end up being the "i'm tired honey" one. (Although I've only turned her down a handful of times too.)

Mostly, we can tell the other one doesn't want to, and don't ask.

But I tell you, if I AM doing something like sitting there, playing a video game (The only relaxation I do, and only on weekends for about an hour) and she says "Are you feeling frisky?"

You can bet that game is getting paused.

(In point of fact, I ONLY buy games that can be paused, just for this very reason)

semilargeintestine
01-04-2010, 11:05 PM
I've heard of this, and we have a similar "policy," I guess you could say. We never turn each other down. There are times when neither one of us has time and/or energy (though those times are few and far between). But we never turn each other down. If he's not tired, but I am, I will have sex anyway - and you know what? A few minutes into it, I am sooooooooooooo thankful I gave it a go! ;)

I believe this contributes fully to our confidence in ourselves, in each other, in us as a couple. I absolutely believes this keeps us closer than any couple I know.

So, you have a similar policy to the one in Jewish law, but you think the Jewish one is unnecessary? If that's true, why do you need your rule?

As an aside, placing the sex in the hands of the woman is also intended to prevent the man having physical control/ownership over his wife.

Also, I sit down when I pee.

Alpha Echo
01-04-2010, 11:11 PM
I freaking hate to say this but in my relationship, I'm usually the "tired" one. She's turned me down a handful of times I can ever think about.

But between work, sick animals, and writing and cooking, I have on average 30 minutes to an hour every day to do anything relaxing. (Not an exaturation)

Quite honestly, after getting up at 6:30, taking out cancer dog before she explodes in her crate, giving her the first gambit of her medications, feeding the fix, feeding the cat, feeding the other animals, taking a shower, going to work, coming home at 5 (or 6:30 if I have to do grocery shopping), sitting down, writing for an hour or two, making dinner, and finally sitting down to eat, its easily 9-10 pm. On tuesdays I have a 9pm conference call with malaysia that lasts until 12... So yeah, I end up being the "i'm tired honey" one. (Although I've only turned her down a handful of times too.)

Mostly, we can tell the other one doesn't want to, and don't ask.

But I tell you, if I AM doing something like sitting there, playing a video game (The only relaxation I do, and only on weekends for about an hour) and she says "Are you feeling frisky?"

You can bet that game is getting paused.

(In point of fact, I ONLY buy games that can be paused, just for this very reason)

I gotcha. Life is exhasuting. We get up pretty early, so generally, the only way we have sex is as long as it's before dinner. If he gets home late or we don't have sex before dinner or we have plans (on a weeknight), we end up falling asleep before we get frisky. Fortunately, we do have a...I don't want to say schedule b/c it's not always the same but a routine down pretty well - for the days he doesn't have his daughter.

Weekends...when we don't have plans...(or the daughter) ;)

When we do have the daughter, we have to be a little more creative. We don't get to draw it out the way we do when she isn't there, so we try to get in a few quickies. Not quite the same, but it works.

I think you sound like you're doing your job just fine, lucidzfl. :)

Tonight, I think we will both be way too tired. I'm looking forward to a glass of vino and a Tylonol PM.

Man, I have totally derailed this thing, haven't I?

Back to the point - this system, so to speak, works for us. And I have never been so close and open and comfortable with anyone, nor has he. It's definitely not all because of the sex, but it's a big part. The sex is great because we both truly love pleasing the other person - sex is one way we demonstrate that (not the only way).

Alpha Echo
01-04-2010, 11:13 PM
So, you have a similar policy to the one in Jewish law, but you think the Jewish one is unnecessary? If that's true, why do you need your rule?

As an aside, placing the sex in the hands of the woman is also intended to prevent the man having physical control/ownership over his wife.

Also, I sit down when I pee.

Hmmmm...I wouldn't say I need the rule. It's just who I am with him. It's nothing I've really thought about too much. If he wants it, he gets it. If I want it, I get it. Most of the time, we both want it.

Maybe you're right. I guess my feeling is that putting all that specifically into law seems so constricting. But if you're happy with the way it is, and everyone else is too, that's great! I'm sorry if my comment sounded like I thought any less of you, because that's not the case at all. I just don't understand.

semilargeintestine
01-04-2010, 11:29 PM
Hmmmm...I wouldn't say I need the rule. It's just who I am with him. It's nothing I've really thought about too much. If he wants it, he gets it. If I want it, I get it. Most of the time, we both want it.

Maybe you're right. I guess my feeling is that putting all that specifically into law seems so constricting. But if you're happy with the way it is, and everyone else is too, that's great! I'm sorry if my comment sounded like I thought any less of you, because that's not the case at all. I just don't understand.

To be honest, I don't care if you think less of me or not. Whatever works for you in your relationship is what you should do. The rules put in place are put in place not because they're absolutely necessary all the time, but because there are situations where they absolutely help keep the relationship healthy. They also protect the wife from becoming an object and from being completely controlled by the husband. The Ketubah (wedding contract) is basically a list of what the husband has to do for his wife. That doesn't mean that every man is out to objectify and enslave his wife, or that every relationship will have problems in the physical sense. The "rules" are just a fallback.

And there aren't that many. 1) Woman decides when to have sex; 2) Minimum number of times a week for a man to offer or initiate sex to his wife; and 3) The sex has to be pleasurable to the wife. That doesn't seem too bad to me.

Alpha Echo
01-04-2010, 11:31 PM
To be honest, I don't care if you think less of me or not. Whatever works for you in your relationship is what you should do. The rules put in place are put in place not because they're absolutely necessary all the time, but because there are situations where they absolutely help keep the relationship healthy. They also protect the wife from becoming an object and from being completely controlled by the husband. The Ketubah (wedding contract) is basically a list of what the husband has to do for his wife.

Interesting. It sounds kinda like a prenup.

semilargeintestine
01-04-2010, 11:46 PM
Yeah, basically.


On the XXX day of the week, the XXX day of the month XXX in the year XXX since the creation of the world, in the city of XXX, XXX son of XXX said to this maiden XXX daughter of XXX, "Be my wife according to the laws of Moses and Israel, and I will cherish, honor, support and maintain you in accordance with the custom of Jewish husbands who cherish, honor, support and maintain their wives faithfully.
And I here present you with the settlement of XXX silver zuzim, which belongs to you, according to the law of Moses and Israel, and I will also give you your food, clothing and necessities, and live with you as husband and wife according to the universal custom."
And the maiden XXX consented and became his wife. The trousseau that she brought to him from XXX, in silver, gold, valuables, clothing, furniture and bedclothes, all this XXX, said bridegroom, accepted in the sum of XXX silver zuzim, and XXX, the bridegroom, agreed to increase this amount from his own property with the sum of XXX silver zuzim, making in all XXX silver zuzim.
And thus said XXX, the bridegroom:
"The responsibility of this marriage contract, of this trousseau, and of this additional sum, I take upon myself and my heirs after me, so that they shall be paid from the best part of my property and possessions that I have beneath the whole heaven, that which I now possess or that which I may hereafter acquire.
All my property, real and personal, even the shirt from my back, shall be mortgaged to secure the payment of this marriage contract, of this trousseau and the addition made to it, during my lifetime and after my death, from the present day and forever."
XXX, the bridegroom, has taken upon himself the responsibility of this marriage contract, of the trousseau and of the addition made to it, according to the restrictive usages of all marriage contracts and the adjoins to them made for the daughters of Israel, according to the institutions of our sages of blessed memory.

The "universal custom" includes sex, which is discussed in the gemara and codifications of Jewish law.

James81
01-05-2010, 12:00 AM
To be honest, I don't care if you think less of me or not. Whatever works for you in your relationship is what you should do. The rules put in place are put in place not because they're absolutely necessary all the time, but because there are situations where they absolutely help keep the relationship healthy. They also protect the wife from becoming an object and from being completely controlled by the husband. The Ketubah (wedding contract) is basically a list of what the husband has to do for his wife. That doesn't mean that every man is out to objectify and enslave his wife, or that every relationship will have problems in the physical sense. The "rules" are just a fallback.

And there aren't that many. 1) Woman decides when to have sex; 2) Minimum number of times a week for a man to offer or initiate sex to his wife; and 3) The sex has to be pleasurable to the wife. That doesn't seem too bad to me.

Wow. Just. Wow.

That's all I have to say.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 12:11 AM
Actually, you have to say more because it's unclear what you mean by that.

James81
01-05-2010, 12:12 AM
Actually, you have to say more because it's unclear what you mean by that.

Let's just say that that doesn't look, to me, like a healthy way to have a relationship.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 12:14 AM
Um, how so? Sex is an important part of a relationship. I'm not sure how you're reading what I wrote, but if you think it's unhealthy to have regular sex, you've been severely misguided.

Alpha Echo
01-05-2010, 12:16 AM
I don't know if I speak for James, but it just makes sex seem more like a chore than something enjoyed by two people who love each other. And geez...we all have enough pressure to perform. To make it law that the woman MUST be pleasured? I mean...we all want to be. But to put that in black and white for anyone, I would think, would be very intimidating. It's so formal. It shouldn't be like that, IMO.

Yeah, my SO and I know if we don't start getting it on before we have dinner on the weeknights, most likely, we won't at all that night. So, we try to have sex before dinner. But it's not planned. Neither of us gets upset if it doesn't happen. We make an effort, but sometimes, it just ain't happening.

Now, if we were having sex less than a couple times a week, we'd have to some talking and figureing out to do b/c normal for us is 5-7 days a week.

Every couple has their "normal," I would think, based on their schedules and sexual desire and need.

But to mark it down as law seems so cold. To me.

lucidzfl
01-05-2010, 12:21 AM
To be honest, I don't care if you think less of me or not. Whatever works for you in your relationship is what you should do. The rules put in place are put in place not because they're absolutely necessary all the time, but because there are situations where they absolutely help keep the relationship healthy. They also protect the wife from becoming an object and from being completely controlled by the husband. The Ketubah (wedding contract) is basically a list of what the husband has to do for his wife. That doesn't mean that every man is out to objectify and enslave his wife, or that every relationship will have problems in the physical sense. The "rules" are just a fallback.

And there aren't that many. 1) Woman decides when to have sex; 2) Minimum number of times a week for a man to offer or initiate sex to his wife; and 3) The sex has to be pleasurable to the wife. That doesn't seem too bad to me.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0217062contract1.gif

Please initial here, here, and here. And sign here.


(This is real, the guy was arrested for it. Link (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0217062contract1.html) )

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 12:21 AM
Well, it's not like you get stoned if she doesn't enjoy it, lol. Also, enjoy it doesn't mean an orgasm. She just has to like it.

I think you're taking things way too far here. The minimum requirement isn't like 10 times a week or anything. The absolute minimum is once a week, except for the niddah period (no pun intended) where sex is forbidden. So that's a minimum of twice a month where the man should try to determine if his wife is in the mood and initiate sex.

I'm having trouble seeing what's so restrictive about this. Shouldn't the man want to please his wife? Shouldn't they have sex regularly during the time they have? Things happen that push sex to the back burner, which can cause strains on the relationship. Having sex once in a while helps to keep that strain lowered.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 12:22 AM
Please initial here, here, and here. And sign here.


(This is real, the guy was arrested for it. Link (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0217062contract1.html) )

While that's hilarious, I already posted the text of the Ketubah. You can read it yourself.

lucidzfl
01-05-2010, 12:23 AM
I don't know if I speak for James, but it just makes sex seem more like a chore than something enjoyed by two people who love each other. And geez...we all have enough pressure to perform. To make it law that the woman MUST be pleasured? I mean...we all want to be. But to put that in black and white for anyone, I would think, would be very intimidating. It's so formal. It shouldn't be like that, IMO.

Yeah, my SO and I know if we don't start getting it on before we have dinner on the weeknights, most likely, we won't at all that night. So, we try to have sex before dinner. But it's not planned. Neither of us gets upset if it doesn't happen. We make an effort, but sometimes, it just ain't happening.

Now, if we were having sex less than a couple times a week, we'd have to some talking and figureing out to do b/c normal for us is 5-7 days a week.

Every couple has their "normal," I would think, based on their schedules and sexual desire and need.

But to mark it down as law seems so cold. To me.

Sex is like cooking. It can either be a chore, or it can be a hobby. Regardless of which, you pretty much need to eat fairly often :D

lucidzfl
01-05-2010, 12:23 AM
While that's hilarious, I already posted the text of the Ketubah. You can read it yourself.

Oh I'm totally tongue in cheek!

Alpha Echo
01-05-2010, 12:27 AM
I'm having trouble seeing what's so restrictive about this. Shouldn't the man want to please his wife? Shouldn't they have sex regularly during the time they have? Things happen that push sex to the back burner, which can cause strains on the relationship. Having sex once in a while helps to keep that strain lowered.

Yes of course - but they should want to please each other, and not just because of a legal contract. Of COURSE they should have sex regularly, but because they want to, not because it's an obligation. And you don't have to sign a document to make sex a very important part of your relationship.

I think that sex should be discussed before marriage to make sure that both partners have the same drive and desire, to make sure they each put the same importance on sex.

I just feel like it take away the love and spontaneity and fun and warmth out of it. It turns it, in my eyes, from needing your partner to needing to fulfil a contract.

Maybe that's not how it is viewed by those that sign the contract, but that's how it seems to me.

*shrug*

Alpha Echo
01-05-2010, 12:27 AM
Sex is like cooking. It can either be a chore, or it can be a hobby. Regardless of which, you pretty much need to eat fairly often :D

Good point. lol. I'm just glad it isn't a chore. :D

lucidzfl
01-05-2010, 12:31 AM
Good point. lol. I'm just glad it isn't a chore. :D

And I am an amateur chef.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 12:34 AM
Yes of course - but they should want to please each other, and not just because of a legal contract. Of COURSE they should have sex regularly, but because they want to, not because it's an obligation. And you don't have to sign a document to make sex a very important part of your relationship.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. You're making it seem like if the rule is there, that is the only reason they will have sex. That's a very elementary understanding of people and relationships. My wife and I will have sex because we want to, not because we have to, regardless of whether or not the rule is there.



I think that sex should be discussed before marriage to make sure that both partners have the same drive and desire, to make sure they each put the same importance on sex.

So do I, and my girlfriend and I have many conversations about sex.



I just feel like it take away the love and spontaneity and fun and warmth out of it. It turns it, in my eyes, from needing your partner to needing to fulfil a contract.

Maybe that's not how it is viewed by those that sign the contract, but that's how it seems to me.

*shrug*

That's not how it is for anyone I know, and that's not how it will be for me. I look at it like this: no matter what's going on, the relationship is number one. My wife and I need to make sure that we're doing well in our relationship no matter what is happening around us. If that means we have to be reminded to get physical once or twice, so be it. It doesn't mean you have sex when you don't want to, it just means that if you're in the mood, you should take the opportunity.

The Talmud and Rashi say that couples should sleep naked together every night (except Niddah) and should try to regularly engage in sexual foreplay during the day if possible. What's wrong with G-d telling you to have an enjoyable sex life?

Rarri
01-05-2010, 01:02 AM
Is one more important than the other?
Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?
Is love fleeting, or timeless?
What is true love?
Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?
Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?
Can one really "fall in love"?

So I ask - What does love mean to you?

A lack of chocolate and my husband may influence my answers here. You have been warned.

Love and sex are different things and i don't either can be more important but that there needs to be a balance (which will naturally be different for everyone). I think love can both 'happen' and be cultivated; i 'fell' in love with my husband - it just happened - but with others, love has grown. In both cases, the relationship still needs effort to keep going.

From the questions you've asked, i think it's important to remember that love is more of a spectrum that consisting of definites. What is true love? Hmn. I don't know, perhaps true love is the love that brings us happiness? Or perhaps true love is the one that brings something more; as an example, having our son has brought a love i didn't think possible, it's also brought fear that i didn't think possible. In summary: i don't know what true love is, but it's thought provoking, for sure.

Passion, like love and sex, is - i believe - something that belongs on a spectrum. Passion can last a lifetime, it can also last for a couple of minutes. Ahem. Lust and love being equated to the same thing, no, i don't think it's wrong, i think it's human nature. Lust can still be good fun, can still bring good memories and experiences - not a bad thing.

Yes, i believe people can fall in love but i don't think it's necessarily a permanent state. People change and love changes, too.

And damn you all with your talk of sex lives, i miss mine. I'm going on a chocolate hunt. Sigh.

Oh, i forgot your last question: What does love mean to you?
What does love mean to me? I'm not sure, but whenever i hear the question, i think of this: when i was in labour with our son - towards the end of three very long days - things went from bad to worse very quickly and i was barely 'with it', i asked my husband how things were. He lied and said we were okay. So, in that instance, love was my husband keeping me from more hurt and panic, helping me carry on when i was so weak. Make of that (badly told) story what you will, but i guess my vague and barely identifiable point is that love can mean many different things.

James81
01-05-2010, 01:14 AM
Um, how so? Sex is an important part of a relationship. I'm not sure how you're reading what I wrote, but if you think it's unhealthy to have regular sex, you've been severely misguided.

It has little to do with the sex part. I agree that sex is important (see my little diatribe a page or two back about that).

It's that the "rules" are controlling. Essentially it's a document trying to exert control on your partner. That's no way, for me, to have a relationship.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 04:08 AM
Where on earth did you get that? Did you actually read it?

Alpha Echo
01-05-2010, 05:13 PM
The Talmud and Rashi say that couples should sleep naked together every night (except Niddah) and should try to regularly engage in sexual foreplay during the day if possible. What's wrong with G-d telling you to have an enjoyable sex life?

There's nothing wrong with that at all. I just don't see a need to have rules about it. I believe that God wants us to enjoy our sex lives, of course. But it just seems very...maybe it's just my western mind that can't wrap around the idea. I don't know.

(And for the record, we love sleeping naked lol :D)

Ambrosia
01-05-2010, 06:05 PM
You guys are going around and around not understanding a culture. You too, Semi colon. You are not understanding western culture. You live in your religion and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with the things that have been set forth in the Jewish religion to make sure people are the best they can be. Family is very important and the rules that are set up to keep the husband and wife happy in every aspect of their life, including the bedroom where intimacy is nourished, are wonderful. And it works for those people in that culture. But for the free thinking, rebellious, "don't lay any rules on me, man" western mind, those same rules that provide such a loving base for a marriage seem restrictive and out of step with reality.

Neither group is wrong. Just different realities. FWIW, I love that it is set down in the law that women are in charge of sex in the marriage, and can say no or yes. So many women have been subjugated to less than human status throughout the centuries and had no say in anything, being forced to perform regardless. In the US, through the 1800s, women could be beaten by their husbands if their husbands were displeased. It was the man's right and duty to beat his wife if he was displeased with her. Women of better families, i.e. those with money, would go to their doctors for "treatment" of their "mental" problem, where the male doctor would stimulate her with his fingers into an orgasm to "cure" her. If the Jewish laws were in place for these women, I dare say their lives would have been much happier and fulfilled. We in western civilization forget our roots, not that far distant in our past.

James81
01-05-2010, 06:13 PM
Where on earth did you get that? Did you actually read it?

I'm just going by what you said here:




And there aren't that many. 1) Woman decides when to have sex; 2) Minimum number of times a week for a man to offer or initiate sex to his wife; and 3) The sex has to be pleasurable to the wife. That doesn't seem too bad to me.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 10:19 PM
There's nothing wrong with that at all. I just don't see a need to have rules about it. I believe that God wants us to enjoy our sex lives, of course. But it just seems very...maybe it's just my western mind that can't wrap around the idea. I don't know.

I think it's the Rules=Rigid mentality. Just because there are two or three basic fallback guidelines doesn't mean there has to be rigidity. You can ask my girlfriend. We have a very spontaneous and enjoyable sex life. I was talking to her last night about how you (general you that includes everyone who seems to have trouble understanding my viewpoint) can't get past the rules part. She said that a rule that says we have to have sex and like it is no rule. ;)



(And for the record, we love sleeping naked lol :D)

Amen. I typically don't sleep naked if I'm by myself, but I'm with the girl 5-6 days a week, so I'm in the nude a lot.


I'm just going by what you said here:

So from three rules that say you need to have sex twice a month and that it should be pleasurable, you somehow got that it lets one spouse control the other? I'm still confused how you made that tremendous leap.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 10:24 PM
You guys are going around and around not understanding a culture. You too, Semi colon. You are not understanding western culture. You live in your religion and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with the things that have been set forth in the Jewish religion to make sure people are the best they can be. Family is very important and the rules that are set up to keep the husband and wife happy in every aspect of their life, including the bedroom where intimacy is nourished, are wonderful. And it works for those people in that culture. But for the free thinking, rebellious, "don't lay any rules on me, man" western mind, those same rules that provide such a loving base for a marriage seem restrictive and out of step with reality.

Yeah, as I said above, I think there is a rules=rigid/controlling viewpoint in western culture. We don't see it that way at all, since there is a rule for pretty much every thing we do each day. In fact, in our culture, we try to find ways to follow the most rules as possible every day, because each one we follow (by either doing or not doing something) gets us closer to G-d.



FWIW, I love that it is set down in the law that women are in charge of sex in the marriage, and can say no or yes. So many women have been subjugated to less than human status throughout the centuries and had no say in anything, being forced to perform regardless.

Which is exactly the point of the system. Traditional Jewish philosophy places the woman as superior in pretty much everything, and there are rules set in place to make sure the woman has an equal or superior role in running the household so we don't fall into the patriarchal system that seems to be the default in many cultures (note: I said many, not all).

James81
01-05-2010, 10:35 PM
So from three rules that say you need to have sex twice a month and that it should be pleasurable, you somehow got that it lets one spouse control the other? I'm still confused how you made that tremendous leap.

Any rule you put in place is a form of control. That's the point. You just don't see it because you LIKE the rule.

Let's say the rule was:

"If a wife does not do the dishes and keep the floors mopped, the husband can beat her knuckles with a yard stick."

How would you feel about that rule? Just because the rule is in place for something you like, doesn't make it any less sexist and controlling.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 10:40 PM
Now it's my turn to say wow. Are you serious? A rule saying that the woman gets to refuse or ask for sex whenever she wants and a rule allowing spousal abuse are not even close to the same thing.

Wow. That is remarkable. I'm seriously hoping you are joking, because if you're not...just wow.

James81
01-05-2010, 10:52 PM
Now it's my turn to say wow. Are you serious? A rule saying that the woman gets to refuse or ask for sex whenever she wants and a rule allowing spousal abuse are not even close to the same thing.

Wow. That is remarkable. I'm seriously hoping you are joking, because if you're not...just wow.

It's not the letter of the rule. It's the rule itself. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

Unless I am seriously misunderstanding something here?

I am saying that it shouldn't HAVE to be a rule. A man should be smart enough to realize on his own that a woman has the choice to refuse sex or ask for sex whenever she wants. But FORCING the man to do it just because she wants it? That's controlling and a bit sexist. The man should have the right to make his own choice as well. And they both should have the right to walk away if they aren't capable of doing these things on their own.

I do realize that in a different culture, this type of thing might work given that other cultures might not be as free as we are here in America. But even then, it's still not the RIGHT solution to their issues. Maybe a step in the right direction, I dunno.

Alpha Echo
01-05-2010, 11:03 PM
Neither group is wrong. Just different realities. FWIW, I love that it is set down in the law that women are in charge of sex in the marriage, and can say no or yes. So many women have been subjugated to less than human status throughout the centuries and had no say in anything, being forced to perform regardless. In the US, through the 1800s, women could be beaten by their husbands if their husbands were displeased. It was the man's right and duty to beat his wife if he was displeased with her. Women of better families, i.e. those with money, would go to their doctors for "treatment" of their "mental" problem, where the male doctor would stimulate her with his fingers into an orgasm to "cure" her. If the Jewish laws were in place for these women, I dare say their lives would have been much happier and fulfilled. We in western civilization forget our roots, not that far distant in our past.

I get that. You're right. I'm not trying to say it's wrong, I just don't understand. I literally can't wrap my mind around the fact that there are laws governing sex lives. Maybe that makes me small-minded, and I try not to be, but it's just hard to grasp. I totally get that every culture is different and don't think that necessarily makes the culture wrong.

I agree also that it's nice to see the women put in charge, the women recognized. I am not women's lib, but I do know how our culture has suppressed women's sexuality for years. Even now, not everything is great about our sex culture.

It's just making it a law, a governed law rather than a spoken, private agreement between husband and wife, that seems so foreign (no pun intended) to me.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 11:09 PM
It's not the letter of the rule. It's the rule itself. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

Unless I am seriously misunderstanding something here?

I think that must be it, because I'm not sure how someone can equate a rule designed to prevent patriarchy with one that condones spousal abuse.



I am saying that it shouldn't HAVE to be a rule. A man should be smart enough to realize on his own that a woman has the choice to refuse sex or ask for sex whenever she wants. But FORCING the man to do it just because she wants it? That's controlling and a bit sexist. The man should have the right to make his own choice as well. And they both should have the right to walk away if they aren't capable of doing these things on their own.

Two things here:

1. A man should know that the woman has the choice to refuse sex. However, I think you would agree that this isn't always the reality. There are men in every single culture who think they own their wives and can take it whenever they want it. This rule is a recourse for a woman who finds herself in this situation. If he tries to get her to do something she doesn't want to do, she has immediate and clear grounds for divorce, and the Beis Din can forcibly remove him from the home so that she is safe.

2. The man doesn't HAVE to have sex with her if he doesn't want to, because that would be rape. I think you just took it a little too literally. The woman dictates when sex happens, but she doesn't have the right to rape her husband. If he really doesn't want to or can't, she can't force him. The rule is more to protect her than to give her absolute control over her husband.



I do realize that in a different culture, this type of thing might work given that other cultures might not be as free as we are here in America. But even then, it's still not the RIGHT solution to their issues. Maybe a step in the right direction, I dunno.

I don't know about other cultures, but Jewish culture is one that didn't have a homeland for 2,000 years, so we had as many freedoms as our host countries allowed us. It is the same way now for Jews who live in the Diaspora. So Jewish women have all the freedoms American women do as long as the American laws don't violate Torah law (like there is no American law that forbids mixing meat and milk, but Jewish law does).

Jewish culture just isn't western culture, even if we are living in a western country. Again, I think it's just a natural, instinctual aversion to the word "rule" that immediately creates a sense of control and subjugation even where none exists.

semilargeintestine
01-05-2010, 11:31 PM
I get that. You're right. I'm not trying to say it's wrong, I just don't understand. I literally can't wrap my mind around the fact that there are laws governing sex lives. Maybe that makes me small-minded, and I try not to be, but it's just hard to grasp. I totally get that every culture is different and don't think that necessarily makes the culture wrong.

Jewish law governs every aspect of our lives. From the time we wake up until the time we go to sleep, there are rules for how we do things. Despite what you'd expect, this doesn't create a robotic culture where everyone does the same thing every day without any freedom of thought or expression. In fact, it's quite the opposite. There are dozens of groups of Orthodox Jews who differ in practice, custom, philosophy, etc. There are Orthodox Jewish actors, writers, artists, musicians, doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers, physicists, police officers, soldiers, rabbis, business owners, and pretty much every other career you can imagine (though those tend to be the most common--in a room full of Jews, you can bet a big percent of them are doctors and lawyers for some reason).

In fact, there are even different philosophies on G-d and Torah. Other than the basic fundamentals of faith (13 of them, and even some of them can be manipulated), it is possible to believe all kinds of things and still be an Orthodox Jew. But we all say the same blessing when we wash our hands in the morning and after we go to the bathroom. We say the same blessings when we eat or pray. We say the same blessings before we go to sleep. There is freedom of thought and expression, but unity as well.

So we have tons of rules, but we use them to express ourselves and strengthen our bonds with each other and G-d. When you grow up with that mindset, rules are viewed much differently than in western culture where it seems that rules are viewed as things meant to be broken and pushed to the limit.



I agree also that it's nice to see the women put in charge, the women recognized. I am not women's lib, but I do know how our culture has suppressed women's sexuality for years. Even now, not everything is great about our sex culture.

Free love baby.



It's just making it a law, a governed law rather than a spoken, private agreement between husband and wife, that seems so foreign (no pun intended) to me.

It's a law, but there are different levels of laws in Judaism.

D'Oraisa is a law directly from the Torah. These cannot be broken under almost any circumstances.

D'Rabonon is a law enacted by the Rabbeim. These are laws that are lower than D'Oraisa and are meant to protect a Torah law by putting a fence around it. For example, the Torah only forbids mixing meat and milk, not fowl and milk; however, just to be safe, the Rabbeim decreed that fowl is meat for the purposes of ensuring this law would not be broken accidentally.

Minhag Yisroel is a custom that has become accepted as law. An example of this is men wearing a kippa (yarmulke)--it is not D'Oraisa or D'Rabonon, but it has become accepted as the custom, and so we now follow it.

The sexual laws I discussed are a combination of D'Oraisa and D'Rabonon. The laws that say a couple must have sex enough to have at least a boy and a girl (if possible) and that the man cannot withold sex from his wife (Gen 1:28, Ex. 21:10 respectively). The recommendations to have sex at a minimum of twice a month, sleep naked, and to try and ensure that the woman enjoys sex as much as possible are D'Rabonon. They are meant to ensure the other laws are kept, because regular, enjoyable sex will make it more likely to have a boy and a girl, and it will make it impossible for the man to withold sex. If the D'Rabonon laws are broken, it is not that big of a deal because they are only meant to protect the Torah laws. If the Torah laws are broken, however, there is a big problem--hence the fence.

James81
01-05-2010, 11:51 PM
I think that must be it, because I'm not sure how someone can equate a rule designed to prevent patriarchy with one that condones spousal abuse.



Two things here:

1. A man should know that the woman has the choice to refuse sex. However, I think you would agree that this isn't always the reality. There are men in every single culture who think they own their wives and can take it whenever they want it. This rule is a recourse for a woman who finds herself in this situation. If he tries to get her to do something she doesn't want to do, she has immediate and clear grounds for divorce, and the Beis Din can forcibly remove him from the home so that she is safe.

2. The man doesn't HAVE to have sex with her if he doesn't want to, because that would be rape. I think you just took it a little too literally. The woman dictates when sex happens, but she doesn't have the right to rape her husband. If he really doesn't want to or can't, she can't force him. The rule is more to protect her than to give her absolute control over her husband.



I don't know about other cultures, but Jewish culture is one that didn't have a homeland for 2,000 years, so we had as many freedoms as our host countries allowed us. It is the same way now for Jews who live in the Diaspora. So Jewish women have all the freedoms American women do as long as the American laws don't violate Torah law (like there is no American law that forbids mixing meat and milk, but Jewish law does).

Jewish culture just isn't western culture, even if we are living in a western country. Again, I think it's just a natural, instinctual aversion to the word "rule" that immediately creates a sense of control and subjugation even where none exists.

Ah well, now I kinda wanna talk about hats. Or cray has me wanting a fig newton. :D

Alpha Echo
01-05-2010, 11:56 PM
I just wanna say Semicolon, thank you for taking the time to explain all this to me. I appreciate that as I'm pretty ignorant of other cultures. That sounds awful, and I love to learn about other cultures and religion, I just... haven't.

So thank you. I did learn a lot today, and I find it fascinating. I might never come to understand it, exactly, but I think I can appreciate it.

semilargeintestine
01-06-2010, 12:03 AM
Ah well, now I kinda wanna talk about hats. Or cray has me wanting a fig newton. :D

I'm partial to Cosi Scotantti fedoras. I started wearing them to shul on Shabbos, and my friend went out and got one in Jerusalem without even realising that he bought the same one. He just thought it looked nice. :D


I just wanna say Semicolon, thank you for taking the time to explain all this to me. I appreciate that as I'm pretty ignorant of other cultures. That sounds awful, and I love to learn about other cultures and religion, I just... haven't.

So thank you. I did learn a lot today, and I find it fascinating. I might never come to understand it, exactly, but I think I can appreciate it.

No prob. :)

James81
01-06-2010, 12:12 AM
I'm partial to Cosi Scotantti fedoras. I started wearing them to shul on Shabbos, and my friend went out and got one in Jerusalem without even realising that he bought the same one. He just thought it looked nice. :D





Good choice!

I've always been a baseball cap kind of guy, but I keep telling myself I want to try one of those newsboy hats like this one:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EK-Efbarkbg/RzZcq3zvCGI/AAAAAAAAB6Y/LN-4xH1s4_w/s400/Newsboy+cap.jpg

semilargeintestine
01-06-2010, 12:19 AM
I just watched Newsies last night! The girlfriend is not as big a fan. :D

Ambrosia
01-06-2010, 12:42 AM
Congratulations on a successful thread, Sarah. ;)


In a recent thread, the topic of love and sex came up.

Is one more important than the other?

Love will always trump sex. With that said, I believe the expression of love through sex when both parties want this type of intimacy is absolutely necessary to the love relationship. I also think that if one party wants it and the other doesn't, that the relationship is doomed to fail.

Is love something that just happens, or is it something that is cultivated?

Yes. I believe that for some people love just happens. For others it is cultivated. And for both groups it needs to continue to be cultivated or it won't survive.

Is love fleeting, or timeless?

It can be either. Love is like a plant. If you water it and care for it it will grow healthy and continue to flourish. If you don't, it will wither and die. It is up the couple if it is timeless or not.

What is true love?

True love is being willing to walk away if it is the right decision for the other person. Or, do what it takes regardless how long and hard it is to give that person what they need to be happy.

Can passion last a lifetime, or it something that flares and dies in its very nature?

I believe passion can last a lifetime with the right person. If it is the wrong person it will flare and die.

Do we equate lust with love? Is that wrong?

I don't. It is a judgment call on whether it is wrong to do so or not. For me, it would be wrong. I am not going to judge anyone else.

Can one really "fall in love"?

Yes. :)

What does love mean to you?

Love means caring enough about the other person to share your chocolate with them. :D

Silver King
01-06-2010, 05:39 AM
I like the rule that Semi has shared that forces husbands to sexually satisfy their spouses at least twice per month. That would add up to a paltry twenty-four times per year, more than what many wives are currently experiencing in their marriages.

truelyana
01-10-2010, 06:07 PM
Divine existence and acceptance between man(oneself and each other), animal,(creatures and plants) planet(earth and it's motions) and function(humanity's movements, political, social etc...) That's what love means to me! :)

R.G. Alexander
01-19-2010, 05:23 PM
Just trying to get my thread subs back. Man this has gotten annoying.

Alpha Echo
01-19-2010, 05:44 PM
I like the rule that Semi has shared that forces husbands to sexually satisfy their spouses at least twice per month. That would add up to a paltry twenty-four times per year, more than what many wives are currently experiencing in their marriages.

I am just so sorry for those women. Seriously. My SO always makes sure I'm satisfied, and visa versa. I don't understand why couples would be any other way! It's so satisfying to...satisfy and to be satisified. Although, I've been there...married to my ex who was very selfish in bed...ick.

semilargeintestine
01-19-2010, 07:08 PM
I am just so sorry for those women. Seriously. My SO always makes sure I'm satisfied, and visa versa. I don't understand why couples would be any other way! It's so satisfying to...satisfy and to be satisified. Although, I've been there...married to my ex who was very selfish in bed...ick.

I don't know how anyone could be in a relationship like that. I can't fathom not wanting to have an active physical relationship with my girlfriend. Rule or not, I think she's beautiful, and I love her. Why wouldn't I want to make sure she's satisfied? I'm just glad she's as active as I am.

Rarri
01-19-2010, 07:46 PM
I am just so sorry for those women. Seriously. My SO always makes sure I'm satisfied, and visa versa. I don't understand why couples would be any other way! It's so satisfying to...satisfy and to be satisified. Although, I've been there...married to my ex who was very selfish in bed...ick.

Ah, circumstances can change though; my other half's sex drive has been all but obliterated by medication. Perhaps it's one of the few circumstances, but medication can wreak havoc with the body.

Alpha Echo
01-19-2010, 07:52 PM
I don't know how anyone could be in a relationship like that. I can't fathom not wanting to have an active physical relationship with my girlfriend. Rule or not, I think she's beautiful, and I love her. Why wouldn't I want to make sure she's satisfied? I'm just glad she's as active as I am.

It didn't mean we weren't active. We were. But...let's just say there were things I did for him that were rarely recipricated, and only if I asked...and there were a few other stipulations. And never to completion.

Things are much different...and much better...now.

Alpha Echo
01-19-2010, 07:52 PM
Ah, circumstances can change though; my other half's sex drive has been all but obliterated by medication. Perhaps it's one of the few circumstances, but medication can wreak havoc with the body.

This is very true. My SO and I have actually discussed how we would handle changes like that. Age, stress, meds...there are a lot of different things that can change your sex drive.

I just hope that none of those things happen to us. :D

semilargeintestine
01-19-2010, 08:05 PM
It didn't mean we weren't active. We were. But...let's just say there were things I did for him that were rarely recipricated, and only if I asked...and there were a few other stipulations. And never to completion.

Things are much different...and much better...now.

Yeah, I didn't mean your situation explicitly. I meant a couple that just doesn't have relations.

lucidzfl
01-19-2010, 08:50 PM
In my house the only rule is my wife is allowed to withhold sex if I do not buy her whatever she wants, whenever she wants. My rule is that I'm allowed to withhold money, if she doesn't perform her wifely duties around the house after she gets home from work. That includes taking care of cancer dog, cleaning, cooking, laundry, and leaving me alone while I play Call of Duty on the xbox.

We're at something of an impasse. Thankfully I don't have much libido anyway.

Alpha Echo
01-19-2010, 08:52 PM
I'm not sure if you're joking or not lucid. lol

semilargeintestine
01-19-2010, 09:15 PM
I hope (and suspect) he is.

Alpha Echo
01-19-2010, 09:16 PM
That was my thought as well.

lucidzfl
01-19-2010, 09:21 PM
I hope (and suspect) he is.

You have your rules, we have ours. Also, we're in the deep south which means "Domestic abuse" doesn't count unless someone is actually killed.

You don't call the cops on someone just coz you hear shit getting broke in their house. People regulate of their own homes here.

semilargeintestine
01-19-2010, 09:27 PM
You have your rules, we have ours. Also, we're in the deep south which means "Domestic abuse" doesn't count unless someone is actually killed.

You don't call the cops on someone just coz you hear shit getting broke in their house. People regulate of their own homes here.

I really hope you're joking, because that made me laugh.