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JennaGlatzer
07-31-2005, 08:05 AM
:Jaw:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/26/eveningnews/main691106.shtml
I didn't see this one until today. Thank God it was dropped, but the fact that it was even proposed... well, my emoticon says it all.

MacAllister
07-31-2005, 08:14 AM
"[We] will do whatever it takes to reach [our] goal." </heavy, dripping irony>

P.H.Delarran
07-31-2005, 11:09 AM
I'll be be shaking my head over this one for a long time.
Glad the bill died.

Unique
07-31-2005, 03:37 PM
Rep. Allen should go back to school. It's obvious he missed learning the definition of censorship.

scfirenice
07-31-2005, 05:30 PM
It sounds to me like Allen is protesting too much. How many gay legislators would have allowed this to continue to keep their secrets?

Mac H.
07-31-2005, 05:56 PM
I'd be interested if he seriously followed the argument.
Forget homosexuality. It is undisputed that divorce and extra marital affairs leads to the breakup of families.

So all books written by divorced people, or containing characters who are divorced should be removed from circulation.

And why the exemption for 'classics'? Clearly Shakespeare was living in an 'unexceptable lifestyle'?

Clearly we should be protecting people from Shakespeare. And that's before we get to his use of witchcraft in his plays.

Not to mention the Bible, which contains many stories of people living in 'unexceptable lifestyles'....

Mac

aadams73
07-31-2005, 06:25 PM
What a moron! I think we should ban him from the human race.

eldragon
07-31-2005, 07:49 PM
I guess he wants all authors to remain in the closet. Just so he doesn't know they are gay.

Who in the Color Purple is gay? When the singer lady helps Whoopi's character, Ceily, discover that her body has pleasures, it's to help a friend. It's nothing to do with being gay. PLUS .......the two women touching is implied, not seen.

Trying to find books or movies that do not have implied references to homosexuality would be impossible. Better to just burn the libraries and bookstores down to the ground and start over.

Even the BRADY BUNCH - a wholesome family show - had a real life gay man as the father. (Mike BRADY.) Banning the BRADY BUNCH would be un-AMERICAN!

Ban The Lion King - because Elton John sings the theme song - he's gay!

eldragon
07-31-2005, 07:51 PM
Ha Ha - and they can't watch any televised sports .....what if a marching band plays Queens "We are the Champion?" Freddie Mercury was gay!


They can't watch "Finding Nemo," because Ellen is gay!

The list goes on.

JustinoXXV
07-31-2005, 08:07 PM
This law, if passed, never would have survived court challenges. It's clearly unconstitutional.

"The mentality of "a lawmaker." No wonder I despise white men. "

There are women, and men of all races, who are as anti gay as Allen, if not more so. So I think Allan's race should be left out of this.

William Haskins
07-31-2005, 08:33 PM
No wonder I despise white men.

what rare and delicious irony it is when a writer lashes out at such a bigoted attempt at legislation by invoking, herself, the two-headed snake of racism and sexism.

maestrowork
07-31-2005, 09:06 PM
Good thing the bill died... but it's scary to think that there are a lot of morons/bigots like him in this country...

MacAllister
07-31-2005, 09:18 PM
I don't think there are nearly so many as they'd have us believe, Ray. :)

They're just so loud.

I honestly think most folks are decent and reasonable people, living their lives as best they can--and they don't really give a rip what we all do in our own bedrooms.

aadams73
07-31-2005, 09:26 PM
Mac, you hit the nail right on the head: bigots and the christian right(same people really) are so darn loud and in this political climate they seem to get more press.

Personally I don't care what goes on in anyone else's bedroom, hetero or homosexual. And I don't give a rat's hiney what sexual preference the writer of a darn good book follows.

William Haskins
07-31-2005, 09:38 PM
bigots and the christian right (same people really)

it amazes me how people can decry and express bigotry at the same time.

eldragon
07-31-2005, 10:13 PM
The mentality of "a lawmaker." No wonder I despise white men.

Have you guys had your coffee yet?

Actually - I'm married to a white man, my father was a white man ......and the list goes on.

So - I really don't despise all white men - but I do despise the white man like the man who tried to create the law mentioned in this thread. The man who killed off the Indians - kept slaves, kept women from voting, and generally hasn't lightened up much in the last several hundred years.

The man who thinks he owns everything. The man who is a racist. The man who believes that, because he is rich , he can destroy anything in his path that he disagrees with. The man who continues to produce and drive giant trucks and SUV's .........instead of promoting alternative power sources and fuels. The man who turns a blind eye to factories dumping chemicals in our water, and deadly gases and vapors into the air we breathe. The man who mows down trees and hunts animals and birds into near extinction.

And yes "white man" can be "white woman." I detest people who trample on others freedom, and kill things in their path.

If enough people cared, we could change things. We could drive hybrid vehicles and reduce fuel consumption, as well as planet-warming emissions.

Or, we can continue on the same self destructive path and possibly destroy the future for our grandchildren. If the choice is up to all of us = how come a few are making the decisions?

William Haskins
07-31-2005, 10:19 PM
yes, i had had my coffee. it was new orleans blend, with chicory.

no amount of back-pedalling is going to unsay your words. nice try with the hubby being white (kind of like "some of my best friends are black, but...").

your statement was patently racist and sexist. the "no wonder" was an attempt to justify your feelings by using this particular issue to validate your bigotry toward a particular (and entire) race and sex.

anyway, that's fine. the first amendment protects your right to spew such bile. it just amazes me that your political blinders keep you from seeing how ridiculously obvious it is.

Doyle
07-31-2005, 10:46 PM
Well done William, well done.

astonwest
07-31-2005, 10:53 PM
Restrictions on books are not really a new topic...many states (or at least municipalities) have bans on particular books for these same reasons.

I, too, find the use of sexism and racism pretty ironic here...

eldragon
07-31-2005, 10:55 PM
no amount of back-pedalling is going to unsay your words. nice try with the hubby being white (kind of like "some of my best friends are black, but...").

Yeah - except for the fact that I'm a white person - from an entirely white family, and have two white daughters. But, my dad - although completely white skinned ....still cared about people, the environment and animals - and was a live and let live kind of man.

Anyway - I'm not back pedaling - I detest the conservative white man - he is wholly responsible for the shape the world is in ......so there.

(I edited my original post .................so there.)

Anyway - what's wrong with someone hating the white man? He surely has spread his share of hatred towards others. Maybe I'll start a club.

astonwest
07-31-2005, 11:02 PM
I detest the conservative white man - he is wholly responsible for the shape the world is in ......so there.

Now there's one heck of a blanket statement...

William Haskins
07-31-2005, 11:30 PM
Anyway - what's wrong with someone hating the white man?

um... it makes one a racist?

look at those white men spreading their hatred! let's hate them all. that's the liberal way!
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/mlk-jr-march.jpg

Sarita
07-31-2005, 11:49 PM
Jenna- This story is very alarming!

The response here is really shocking to me. You can't combat hate with hate. Doesn't that make things worse? If we want the world to practice tolerance, we need give it a shot.

eldragon
07-31-2005, 11:55 PM
Not really. In order for me to be a racist - I would have to believe that one race is superior to others. I don't believe that.



Just like this:

"Right, I'm a bigot, I know, but for the left." (Annie Hall (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword=Annie Hall&mode=dvd); writing credit: Woody Allen ; Marshall Brickman.)


How can someone disgusted by the actions of their own race be bigoted? Do I believe that someone else is superior to me, because I'm white?


Sounds ridiculous to me. Yes - I'm a bigot for the left. I agree with the little guy - the stepped on - the small people without voices. So sue me.

Would it have been better if I would have said "I despise men?" I don't, but maybe it's the word "white" that upsets people. Or, how about "I despise people who look like me?" Would that be considered hateful or racist?

eldragon
08-01-2005, 12:05 AM
look at those white men spreading their hatred! let's hate them all. that's the liberal way!


Nice try. Liberals are for change. Change benefits everyone - not just the ones who already have it all.

Martin Luther King was a not a conservative ........and neither were those guys standing by him - unless they had a gun in his side.

William Haskins
08-01-2005, 12:13 AM
methinks you missed the point (not surprising). those are white men. therefore, categorically speaking using your logic, they are worthy of your hatred.

"bigot for the left"... so, bigotry isn't wrong in your eyes, it's just to what end it's practiced.

rather myopic and, dare i say, hypocritical.

Sarita
08-01-2005, 12:14 AM
Would it have been better if I would have said "I despise men?" Well, that would just be sexist, instead of the one-two punch of racist and sexist.

It might be better to stay away from the generalizations, if you want to be taken seriously.

JustinoXXV
08-01-2005, 12:23 AM
Eldragon, black men still keep people as slaves in the Sudan. Countries like Nigeria have been torn by ethnic violence because in the context of Africa, each group of blacks sees itself as a different race.

Native Americans in Mexico and Peru took their enemies and literally sacrificed them to their gods. In African religions as well, animal and human sacrifice have been a part of their religions (it was the same in pre Christian Europe).

Japanese killed millions of Chinese ,and reduced a lot of Korean and Chinese women to being their concubines.

Let's not even go on the genocidal wars Muslims have waged.

Every ethnic and racial group has done evil things.

So please stop making generalizations on the basis of people's race. Also, making generalizations on the basis of sex is around. There are anti gay women out there.

I disagree with Allan, but I would never tar all whites or all conservatives or even all people from Alabama.

Saratims8 is right, we can't combat hate with hate. We can't teach tolerance and others not to stereotype if we aren't willing to do it ourselves.

mommie4a
08-01-2005, 12:26 AM
Well, that would just be sexist, instead of the one-two punch of racist and sexist.

It might be better to stay away from the generalizations, if you want to be taken seriously.

Eldragon -

I think Sara gets closer here to the objection, as I see it anyway. And that's that you can condemn an individual's actions or expression if you like, but to place that person's act or expression on that person's race, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, that's another thing entirely. Remember James Q. Wilson - he's the guy that tried to say blacks have a gene that makes them criminals? That's ridiculous. And no one has an immutable quality that makes them a racist - it's their thoughts, deeds etc. that do that.

Every parent should know that you never tell your kid, you're a bad kid - what you did was bad. Sounds trite and maybe even unsupportable, but the fact is, it's usually the case. The "bad kid" rarely exists. Same way with adults.

With the exception of Karl Rove.

Last: Would Gay Talese have been banned too under that law? Damn, he's a great nonfiction writer.

eldragon
08-01-2005, 12:36 AM
Man you guys are unforgiving. Alright - I really don't hate white men - or anyone for that matter.


And, yes - generalizations are silly.


There are some fabulous white men out there - Paul Newman, for one. He is a real friend to the earth and shows that being successful doesn't mean you have to take everything and give nothing back.

Perhaps in a previous life I was an American Indian, an American slave or a Jew in Aushwitz. My captors would have looked similar, no?

William Haskins
08-01-2005, 12:56 AM
Perhaps in a previous life I was an American Indian, an American slave or a Jew in Aushwitz. My captors would have looked similar, no?

maybe you've just been brainwashed in this life to be a self-loathing white person riddled with liberal guilt.

not that i doubt past lives, mind you, but it seems conspicuously self-serving that all your previous lives occurred in the past few hundred years and only in western countries.

maybe you could go see a past-lives expert and see if you can dredge up a memory or two where you were a jew enslaved by africans (egypt), a french person tortured and killed for not converting to islam or a chinese person executed by japanese imperialists. or, as justino pointed out, a more recent african enslaved and worked to death by another african.

Birol
08-01-2005, 01:11 AM
Everyone take a deep breath. Step away from the computer. Take a walk around the block. Count to ten.

There? Feel better?

eldragon
08-01-2005, 01:43 AM
not that i doubt past lives, mind you, but it seems conspicuously self-serving that all your previous lives occurred in the past few hundred years and only in western countries.


No, I didn't mention all of my past lives.

William Haskins
08-01-2005, 03:48 AM
i'm not sure, but i think you may have jumped the shark.

Optimus
08-01-2005, 04:12 AM
http://www.mashby.com/images/posts/jump_the_shark.gif"He-eyyy!" - eldragon

Fractured_Chaos
08-01-2005, 05:01 AM
EDITED: Because I'm a dork, and apparently misunderstood the whole conversation.

Justino, please use the quote feature, so I don't have to make an *** out of myself. I do that just fine all on my own. I thought that was your comment. :o

And I owe you an apology.

Optimus
08-01-2005, 05:06 AM
I like chocolate chip pancakes.

Fractured_Chaos
08-01-2005, 05:16 AM
You know that quote came from eldragon and not Justino, right?

Since eldragon had edited her post before I came along, and Justino didn't use the quote feature, I didn't, until just a moment ago.

:o

eldragon
08-01-2005, 05:29 AM
Jump the Shark is actually a very entertaining book.

And, from the book, which I have right here in front of me, "Jumping the Shark means : the precise moment when things go bad - terribly, irrevocably bad."


But the funny thing about the book, which was printed in 2002, is how it thinks someone's career is over, but the future proves otherwise.

For instance, Sting jumped the shark when he started battling for rain forests.
Aerosmith jumped the shark by going into rehab.
Eric Clapton jumped the shark by doing the soundtrack for the color of money.
Madonna jumped the shark when she wrote "SEX."
Tom Cruise jumped the shark by filming Eyes Wide Shut.
Mel Gibson jumped the shark by filming Conspiracy Theory.
Julia Roberts jumped the shark by filming Dying Young.
Arnold Schwarzenegger jumped the shark by becoming the Last Action Hero.

ETC.

These people not only survived, but did better than before.

So you don't like me ........whatever.

astonwest
08-01-2005, 05:44 AM
Everyone take a deep breath.

Anyone have a paper bag?

Sarita
08-01-2005, 05:44 AM
I like chocolate chip pancakes. Me, too! And I loved Conspiracy Theory with Mel Gibson. "I bit his nose off, I bit his nose off..."

edragon- Not speaking for Will, but for myself... I like you very much. It's the generalizations that get me. I think you summed it up well in the following quote...

And, yes - generalizations are silly. There are some fabulous white men out there...(William, is it okay if I think you're one of the fabulous ones?)

William Haskins
08-01-2005, 06:05 AM
So you don't like me ........whatever.

let's not get passive-aggressive here. per this thread, in the most explicit and literal interpretation, you don't like me. in fact, you despise me.

sara, thanks. but the paul newman reference was more of the typical stuff. "he's one of the good ones..."

MacAllister
08-01-2005, 06:14 AM
wait...


Will is white?

Sarita
08-01-2005, 06:16 AM
Will is white? And fabulous. :)

Birol
08-01-2005, 10:53 AM
...and male.

MacAllister
08-01-2005, 11:57 AM
wow. The things you learn about people.

Unique
08-01-2005, 02:25 PM
I once met someone who was anti-human. It was...interesting.

~Kisha

Hey, I didn't realize we had met! When was that? Do you remember?
Or did you just see my bumper sticker: God should have stopped at the 5th day

JustinoXXV
08-01-2005, 02:39 PM
I once met someone who was anti-human. It was...interesting.

I'm glad the bill died. To allow it to pass would have just opened the door to furthur persecution of homosexuals and before you know it, it'd be book burning, nazi germany style, in the 21st century.

~Kisha

I'm glad the bill died too. Had it not, that's why we have an executive branch (the governor could have vetoed), or it had actually passed, that's why we have the court system. The law would have been unconstitutional and a violation of freedom of speech.

Roger J Carlson
08-01-2005, 06:38 PM
Liberals are for change. Change benefits everyone... Technically, liberals are for change only when the OTHER guy is in office. Liberals become very conservative (i.e. want no change) when their own policies are in effect. If it were not so, then all the liberals would have voted for Bob Dole instead of Bill Clinton in 1996. In political terms, change only benefits the party, group, or ideology that is out of favor.

After thought: Perhaps a better example that the Dole/Clinton thing is Roe v. Wade. Liberals are desperate to avoid any change to this ruling (ie over-turning it). They would not see this change as beneficial.

sellthepharm
08-01-2005, 07:21 PM
what's wrong with someone hating the white man? He surely has spread his share of hatred towards others. Maybe I'll start a club



Too late, eldragon. That club already exists and is alive and well. The best part about this club is that there are no membership dues or initiation rites that I know of. All you have to do is believe what Louis Farrakhan, Calvin Butts, CAIR, John Conyers and several other members of the Congressional Black Caucus, self-loathing white liberals, tell you and you're in!!

What a deal.

sellthepharm
08-01-2005, 08:01 PM
So - I really don't despise all white men - but I do despise the white man like the man who tried to create the law mentioned in this thread. The man who killed off the Indians - kept slaves, kept women from voting, and generally hasn't lightened up much in the last several hundred years.

The man who thinks he owns everything. The man who is a racist. The man who believes that, because he is rich , he can destroy anything in his path that he disagrees with. The man who continues to produce and drive giant trucks and SUV's .........instead of promoting alternative power sources and fuels. The man who turns a blind eye to factories dumping chemicals in our water, and deadly gases and vapors into the air we breathe. The man who mows down trees and hunts animals and birds into near extinction.

And yes "white man" can be "white woman." I detest people who trample on others freedom, and kill things in their path.

If enough people cared, we could change things. We could drive hybrid vehicles and reduce fuel consumption, as well as planet-warming emissions




Eldragon, I'm white, male, and drive an SUV (2 actually). I'm a conservative Christian who sends his kids to private school. I like to hunt and fish within the guidelines established by the Game and Fish Commission. I work diligently for an evil large pharmaceutical corporation.

Do you despise me?

If so, you have to make some assumptions, all of which are patently untrue and absurd (except for driving an SUV)
According to your post, I must:

1. Think I own everything
2. Be a racist
3. want to destroy everything in my path that I disagree with
4. turn a blind eye to egregious environmental practices
5. hunt animals to near extinction

To make such sweeping generalizations and then form opinions about people you have never met boggles the mind.

Judging from many of your previous posts, I take it that you and I would differ on many issues, ranging from religion to politics to environmental policy.
But I don't despise you.
I may disagree with you and may actively participate in efforts to defeat your political positions but I would never despise you. To do so would be to lower myself into the quagmire that is filled with wild assumptions and true intolerance.

Fractured_Chaos
08-01-2005, 10:11 PM
Eldragon, I'm white, male, and drive an SUV (2 actually). I'm a conservative Christian who sends his kids to private school. I like to hunt and fish within the guidelines established by the Game and Fish Commission. I work diligently for an evil large pharmaceutical corporation.



*SHRIEKS*

Nooooo! You r teh evil!

And I -liked- you!

*sniffle* :(











(Okay, I just had to get that out of my system. You may now return to your regularly scheduled fussing and debating) :D

sellthepharm
08-01-2005, 11:06 PM
*SHRIEKS*

Nooooo! You r teh evil!

And I -liked- you!

*sniffle* :(





C'mon drgnlvr, I know you still like me. Just a wee little bit, waaay down deep. It's o.k. You can admit it.http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif


Now that I've outed myself does this mean nobody will want to play with me?

maestrowork
08-01-2005, 11:13 PM
That's it. We can be totally different people with very different idealogies and values, and still get along (probably not get married though... ;) )

The issue is: are we trying to change each other, or if we can't, are we trying to destroy those who don't agree with us? I think that's when the extremes are dangerous. It's okay to disagree and live with that, but to say, "Hey, you are such-and-such and you're going to hell and I will see to that..." or "wow, if you believe that, you must be a moron and you deserve to die." That's wrong. It goes beyond holding on and live by your beliefs.

Unfortunately, the loudest people usually are the more extreme people. Some of them truly believe their opponents should die.

DaveKuzminski
08-01-2005, 11:25 PM
Unfortunately, the loudest people usually are the more extreme people. Some of them truly believe their opponents should die.

We can make exceptions for PA execs and ST, right? ;)

maestrowork
08-01-2005, 11:31 PM
We can make exceptions for PA execs and ST, right? ;)

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say they should die... burn in hell, sure.

DaveKuzminski
08-01-2005, 11:49 PM
Well, I wouldn't necessarily say they should die... burn in hell, sure.

We can send them there alive? Wow! ;)

BradyH1861
08-01-2005, 11:54 PM
I guess I should out myself too.

I am also a white male.

OH THE HORROR!

My wife has an SUV. I have a pickup truck. Because of where I live, where I grew up, my "accent", and what I drive, it is easy to see that I am a horrible racist. That is the conclusion most often drawn. Every white person in East Texas is a racist, of course. :ROFL: I am also an agent of oppression.

But seriously, if you have to be oppressed, you could pick a much worse person to do it than I am.

:banana:

Brady H.

Aconite
08-02-2005, 12:08 AM
I'm glad this stupid bill was killed. But, knowing Southern politics as I do, I can tell you what the point of the bill was, and it wasn't to get passed. It was to force the lawmakers to vote on it, so that during the next election, anti-gay politicians can trumpet far and wide that while they tried to protect the innocent children of the South from filth, their pro-gay opponants shot down this attempt at apple-pie wholesomeness.

Fractured_Chaos
08-02-2005, 12:19 AM
C'mon drgnlvr, I know you still like me. Just a wee little bit, waaay down deep. It's o.k. You can admit it.http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif


You know I do, Sweetie! :kiss:


Now that I've outed myself does this mean nobody will want to play with me?


Considering the people who read and post in here...perhaps you might want to define "play"




*hides*

Fractured_Chaos
08-02-2005, 12:25 AM
I'm glad this stupid bill was killed. But, knowing Southern politics as I do, I can tell you what the point of the bill was, and it wasn't to get passed. It was to force the lawmakers to vote on it, so that during the next election, anti-gay politicians can trumpet far and wide that while they tried to protect the innocent children of the South from filth, their pro-gay opponants shot down this attempt at apple-pie wholesomeness.

Sorta like asking "When did you stop beating your wife"? It was a loaded proposition, and the extreme right was going to make it bad one way or another.

MacAllister
08-02-2005, 12:26 AM
Aconite is on the nose about what the bill was about, btw--most of the more politically savvy queer folks I know didn't get too worked up about it, because it was essentially a rhetorical gesture that no one ever even considered would really pass.

The big jaw dropper for me is that a politician was willing to go to such lengths, take so much time, and expend so much energy to make that big a deal about what total strangers, consenting adults, may or may not be doing in their own bedrooms.

That frankly just doesn't seem like a great long-term career strategy...*shrug*

maestrowork
08-02-2005, 12:26 AM
this ain't the house of love, pump kin.

Fractured_Chaos
08-02-2005, 12:29 AM
this ain't the house of love, pump kin.

Darnit! I knew I shoulda took that right turn at Albequirky.

maestrowork
08-02-2005, 12:30 AM
I think we should all start minding what other people are doing in their bedrooms. Seems like a trend. I should start, for example, asking Senator Santorum and his wife whether they use condoms or does he pull out, have oral sex (which is sodomy in many states), do it up the wasoo, upside down, inside out, in their kitchen... He should let us know what kind of porn he watches while his wife is not around. We want details. And I am sure some people may call him a pervert. But hey...

Birol
08-02-2005, 01:49 AM
Isn't that voyeurism?

eldragon
08-02-2005, 02:05 AM
I'm admitting that I didn't choose my words carefully enough.

I really don't hate anyone or anything. I don't approve with the right winged conservatives .......but it's your choice to decide what you want, not mine. I am supportive of everyone's rights to choose and practice their religion, homeschool their children, have sex with other adults (as many as you want), read pornography, smoke pot, make your own whiskey, paint your house, have an abortion or pretty much anything else you choose to do that doesn't infringe on the rights of other people.

I am anti-violence, period. I do not kill bugs. I feed all the stray cats, oppossums and raccoons in my neighbor - on a deck I built for them in my oak tree.

There are some things about you that might bother me, though. A few of them might be :

Not spaying or neutering your pets and allowing them to populate the world.
Hunting.
Making fun of someone who is different than you - of color, fat or disabled.


I am the most compassionate person I know. I volunteer at a nursing home, and take great pride in that. I am good friends with people of all races, backgrounds and sexes.

So am I happy with the human race? Heck no. I am certainly not. I think we are going to hell in a handbasket, as my grandmother used to say. (I don't believe in hell, personally, but the slogan fit.)

So I apologize for the bad words I wrote yesterday, not meaning literally any of it. I could have said "I hate Doritos." But it wouldn't mean I was going to start a movement to ban the sale of Doritos. It's just one of those things.


The Little Rascals had their "He man woman haters club." Nobody attacked them. I'm as harmful as Alfalfa.



Still .......I know we should be using alternative fuel sources. Natural gas supplies are going to last about 50 years at this rate. Hydrogen would supply us indefinitely. We need to stop dumping chemicals in the water - stop using pesticides to kill everything (including butterflies) and try to leave something of the earth for future generations.


The end.

BradyH1861
08-02-2005, 02:20 AM
"I hate Doritos."


So do I! I prefer pretzels.

Brady H.

maestrowork
08-02-2005, 02:26 AM
So do I! I prefer pretzels.

Brady H.

Burn him.

sellthepharm
08-02-2005, 06:38 AM
I feed all the stray cats, oppossums and raccoons in my neighbor - on a deck I built for them in my oak tree.





Egads, eldragon. Exactly what kind of neighbors do you have and why are they filled with stray cats, opossums, and raccoons?

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

BTW, I drove through your fair state last week on my way to Gulf Shores and a relaxing week on the Redneck Riviera.

sellthepharm
08-02-2005, 07:13 AM
Considering the people who read and post in here...perhaps you might want to define "play"




Good point. Let me rephrase: Will no one engage in stimulating and lively banter on matters ranging from politics to religion to the cultural mores of our times with me any longer?

William Haskins
08-02-2005, 07:24 AM
i'll talk to you.

for the record, i don't hate anyone, and i certainly don't dislike anyone in this thread or on these boards.

but i'll still fight. it's just in my nature.

MacAllister
08-02-2005, 11:18 AM
Eldragon, that was classy and well-said--thank you! :)

JustinoXXV
08-02-2005, 11:42 AM
Still .......I know we should be using alternative fuel sources. Natural gas supplies are going to last about 50 years at this rate. Hydrogen would supply us indefinitely.

The end.

You do know that Hydrogen isn't found just lying around. I takes a massive amount of energy to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. We will never have hydrogen as our primary fuel because of that reason.

Roger J Carlson
08-02-2005, 04:27 PM
You do know that Hydrogen isn't found just lying around. I takes a massive amount of energy to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. We will never have hydrogen as our primary fuel because of that reason.I'm incredibly wary of the 'N' word (never). The history of science is full of things that could 'never' be done: air flight, space flight, nuclear power -- just about every advancement ever achieved. Am I certain hydrogen will become an efficient fuel? No. Something else might come along that's better. But it IS certain that fossil fuel won't last forever and the demands of our society require some sort of portable fuel. It may well be hydrogen. If there's money in it, someone will figure out a way.

Mac H.
08-02-2005, 05:44 PM
Justino's got a point. It's not a case of being efficient or not. If you put energy IN to split hydrogen from the Water Molecule, you'll get hydrogen - a great 'fuel'.

And when you burn the hydrogen 'fuel' - you'll get energy. Exactly the same amount of energy that you spent to split it in the first place!

From that point of view, it's not a 'fuel' - it's more like a battery. The reason we regard fossil fuels as 'fuel' is because nature has already spent the energy into create the oil.

So if hydrogen 'fuel' does end up being widely used, pedantic people like me will keep pointing out that it's really just a storage medium, and the real 'fuel' is the nuclear power that was used to split the water in the first place.

Alternatively, why wait for the future? Just run your car off vegetable oil or ethanol. I've been running my car almost entirely off ethanol for a while, and it runs fine. Forget fossil fuels.

Disclaimer: Check with a mechanic first. The ethanol I've been using has the right lubricants etc added. I haven't gone to any great efforts, as I (honestly) don't believe in going too far out of my way to protect the environment. I just happen to have an service station near me that sells Ethanol, so it's not too much trouble.

And no, it doesn't void the car's warranty. (If it's the right stuff)

And yes - I am proud to play my part into helping veer the argument onto a new topic...

Mac

Roger J Carlson
08-02-2005, 06:12 PM
From that point of view, it's not a 'fuel' - it's more like a battery. From that point of view, ALL 'fuels' are storage batteries. All of the energy we have (aside from nuclear and geothermal) comes ultimately from the sun: fossil fuel, wind power, tide power, ethanol, solar cells, whatever. One way or another, it's just a storage medium.

When I mentioned efficiency, I was referring to the entire process of producing the fuel. Fossil fuel is incredibly inefficient to make -- takes millions of years -- but the work has all been done for us. In the future, we're going to have to make our own. Hydrogen looks like a pretty good bet for making the electricity produced by nuclear power plants portable.

maestrowork
08-02-2005, 06:15 PM
Fuel cell is going to happen. Maybe not in large scale at first... solar would be a good large scale alternative, if the cost can be kept down... it's all about mass production and supply/demand.

Fractured_Chaos
08-02-2005, 06:29 PM
State workers used to drive methane-powered cars in Kansas (I don't know if they do anymore or not).

I think methane would be an exellent alternative, because unless the entire planet gets constipated at once, we will always have it.

Roger J Carlson
08-02-2005, 06:34 PM
State workers used to drive methane-powered cars in Kansas (I don't know if they do anymore or not).

I think methane would be an exellent alternative, because unless the entire planet gets constipated at once, we will always have it.I know that pig farmers collect and burn methane. Apparently pigs are never constipated.

Fractured_Chaos
08-02-2005, 06:46 PM
I know that pig farmers collect and burn methane. Apparently pigs are never constipated.

:ROFL:

No, I don't imagine they are.

And drive by just about any sewage treatment plant in the US, and most of them have these tall stacks with enormous flames shooting out of them. Can you imagine all the methane that's going to waste, there?

And from what I understand, it's -reletively- clean (as clean as burning anything might be, anyway).

So, the question is...if we're already set up to convert methane into fuel, and we already have the technology available to use it in cars....why aren't we using it more, now?

Roger J Carlson
08-02-2005, 06:49 PM
why aren't we using it more, now?I think we will. Problem is, expensive as it is now, gasoline is still pretty cheap. This will change in the future. I believe it is a self-correcting problem, ultimately.

eldragon
08-02-2005, 07:30 PM
Egads, eldragon. Exactly what kind of neighbors do you have and why are they filled with stray cats, opossums, and raccoons?


I live in Mississippi .......raccoons and Opossums abound at night. There are stray cats that show up here, and if I can catch them, I get them spayed or neutered.

JustinoXXV
08-02-2005, 07:49 PM
Nuclear power plants, produce nuclear waste, and there are storage issues. Also not too many people want one built next to them.

For that reason, fuel cell will never happen on a large scale.

It uses much less energy if we continue to burn stuff. A lot of methane is given off from garbage dumps, and is given off with anything organic rots. Ethanol or some sort of alcohol can be made from anything with sugar. In Brazil all cars specially made to burn ethanol, gasoline, or any combination of ethanol and gasoline. As for vegetable oil, any diesel engine can run on it. I've even read of restaurant greased being used to fuel diesel engines.

And we will not run out of those renewable biomass fuels. The thing is the Brazil government made the auto industry there use this fuels (which was a boon their sugar cane industry). Actually, a lot of the throw away parts of the sugar cane had enough sugar to make ethanol.

I've even read that fatty solids and even plastic, if put in hot enough water under extremely high pressure, can be liquified into a sort of petroleum.

As for racooons and opposums, they're everywhere except for on city blocks. Even in the heart of NYC (in it's parks) there are racoons. I got chased out of the park by an angry family of racoons (I walked too close to their babies and they made some weird noise and charged me).

As for stuff like solar, wind, etc. in some areas it's more viable than others. Also, we have a lot of dams in the US that haven't been fitted with hydropower generators.

Tirjasdyn
08-02-2005, 10:11 PM
As for racooons and opposums, they're everywhere except for on city blocks. Even in the heart of NYC (in it's parks) there are racoons. I got chased out of the park by an angry family of racoons (I walked too close to their babies and they made some weird noise and charged me).


Unless you are in Denver then they are downtown too. (62 and counting caught at my grandfather's house then relocated over 50 miles away.)

Fractured_Chaos
08-02-2005, 11:37 PM
I live in Mississippi .......raccoons and Opossums abound at night. There are stray cats that show up here, and if I can catch them, I get them spayed or neutered.

*Pssst* Eldragon, I think you were being teased about the typo :ROFL:

maestrowork
08-03-2005, 12:36 AM
I live in the city and I have raccoons and apossums in my back yard.

sellthepharm
08-03-2005, 12:59 AM
*Pssst* Eldragon, I think you were being teased about the typo

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif



I live in the city and I have raccoons and apossums in my back yard

I live in the country. We hunt raccoons. http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

William Haskins
08-03-2005, 01:30 AM
I live in the country. We hunt raccoons. no wonder i despise white men.

eldragon
08-03-2005, 04:08 AM
Well, me thinks the spelling should be changed. Drop the "O."


Come ahuntin in my backyard .................I am fanatical about raccoons. I have a real attachment to them. Two years ago I used to have one come around in the middle of the day, and she/he would sit on my deck and wait for me. I would go get a cool tub of water for her - and give her some food. She would lower herself down into the water and cool off a bit, then start to eat. She would sit a foot away from me, never frightened.

I used to do my gardening while she ate. I was so happy she trusted me. But, unfortunately, a bunch of neighborhood kids saw her in my yard one day and acted like they had never seen a raccoon before - started yelling and screaming and she ran off - never to be seen during the day again.

Man, I miss her.

eldragon
08-03-2005, 04:11 AM
As for racooons and opposums, they're everywhere except for on city blocks. Even in the heart of NYC (in it's parks) there are racoons.

Well, Justino mispelled RACCOONS!


Actually, raccoons are about the only animal that has not only survived, but prospered with city growth.

My dream is to live in the country. I did for awhile, but it was a rental. Everynight, I sat out a banquet behind my house. I had ten or twenty raccoons and oppossums everynight. It was so neat.

robeiae
08-03-2005, 05:43 AM
Actually, raccoons are about the only animal that has not only survived, but prospered with city growth.
Rats?

Rob :)

astonwest
08-03-2005, 05:45 AM
Rats?

Real estate moguls?

Sarita
08-03-2005, 05:49 AM
Aww, sweetie... it was this:


I am anti-violence, period. I do not kill bugs. I feed all the stray cats, oppossums and raccoons in my neighbor - on a deck I built for them in my oak tree.

Not sure how those raccoons got in your neighbor, but get them out!!! (teehee)

Roger J Carlson
08-03-2005, 07:37 AM
My dream is to live in the country. I did for awhile, but it was a rental. Everynight, I sat out a banquet behind my house. I had ten or twenty raccoons and oppossums everynight. It was so neat.My wife's cousin did that too. They'd put out chicken carcases, vegetable, and such. They'd watch them come around every night. They thought it was cute.

Then the raccoons became bolder and started raiding their garbage cans. No matter how tightly they closed them, the coons would get in. They started keeping the garbage in their garage, but the coons got in there too. Suddenly, they weren't cute anymore.

They had a terrible time getting rid of the critters.

JustinoXXV
08-03-2005, 07:08 PM
Black bear populations have been expanding all over the lower 48 states. I hope you wouldn't feed bears..............:)

Actually, the most successful animals to adapt to city life are rats, mice and pigeons and other birds. Raccoons, in the context of a big city like NYC, are limited to parks. Rats are everywhere, including the subways. Pigeons and other birds are also everywhere (on top of buildings, in people's yards, etc.)

sellthepharm
08-03-2005, 08:32 PM
Black bear populations have been expanding all over the lower 48 states. I hope you wouldn't feed bears..............:)



Ooooh, bears are yummy. *snicker*




S

sellthepharm
08-03-2005, 10:25 PM
Real estate moguls?



Homo trumpicus


http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

eldragon
08-03-2005, 10:41 PM
Not sure how those raccoons got in your neighbor, but get them out!!! (teehee)

Oh, never even noticed that.


Actually, the most successful animals to adapt to city life are rats, mice and pigeons and other birds. Raccoons, in the context of a big city like NYC, are limited to parks. Rats are everywhere, including the subways. Pigeons and other birds are also everywhere (on top of buildings, in people's yards, etc.)

Where there is waste, there will be rodents. Rats also get a bad rap. I have two pet rats who are very sweet. At least one of them wouldn't hurt a flea.

Birds? I also have a pet starling. He's the only kind of bird (I think) that isn't protected by any laws in this country. He is considered a "trash bird." However, he is very smart - eats bugs ..........and will hopefully start talking soon, as most starlings in captivity do talk. They are kin to Minah Birds.

I'll bet raccoons aren't just in parks in NYC. I'll bet they are in trees, attics and abandoned areas, you just don't see them.

Birol
08-03-2005, 10:54 PM
Don't forget squirrels. Those little buggers have been known to wait for the walk signal before crossing busy streets.

Lots of animals are able to survive in an urban environment. As indicated, people just don't see them, especially those that are typically nocturnal, like raccoons.

eldragon
08-03-2005, 10:55 PM
We saw "Charlie & the Chocolate Factory" yesterday, and they have a bunch of very cute squirrels - employed at the factory as nutcrackers.



They really are cute.

Birol
08-03-2005, 10:57 PM
I havent' seen the movie, but I was watching VH1 and what it took to train those squirrels to do that scene. Absolutely amazing.

JustinoXXV
08-03-2005, 11:32 PM
Pam, raccoons are in the kinds of abandoned areas you mention in NYC. I just never go by those areas. But from people who do go by them, they mention seeing them.

Wherever there's water and grass, you'll see Canada geese and mallard ducks. Seagulls are pretty common in any city near water (along the beach, sometimes in parks and of course wherever there's garbage).

Oppossums come in big cities. Yards and parks, in places like Chicago and New York get rabbits.

A couple of interesting animals no one had seen in Manhattan flew into NYC in the 90s. The city hadn't had haws in 100 years. A male hawk, called Pale Male, flew it. He liked it, found a female hawk, and brought her into the city. She died. He found another female hawk (called Lisa). Every year he and Lisa lay eggs and raise a family. The offspring scattered here and there, but now the city has a healthy hawk population (eating squirrels, rats, and pigeons). Falcolns and Owls are in the city, eating the samethings. Inwood park in upper Manhattan has wild turkeys (and now nesting populations of Bald eagles). this particular park is good for because in the 80s a lot of muggins, rapes, and the occassional murder occured there. So people by and large were afraid to go back, meaning the animals had plenty of peace. (especially nesting birds).

NY didn't have swans in awhile, but now they too nest in some city parks. One swan family always lives on the same lake in Central Park (there are several). The offspring always fly away every year.

Crows and bluejays are everywhere, even in NYC, LA, Chicago.

A couple of coyotes wants made their way into the Bronx, where people thought they were dogs and fed them.

And on the outskirts of LA, you have cougars and occassionally someone gets attacked. NYC's suburbs in New Jersey get black bears.

robeiae
08-04-2005, 12:49 AM
In South Florida, we have chupacabras everwhere.

Rob :)

Caty
08-04-2005, 11:11 AM
Sorry Eldragon you may be as harmless as alfalfa but you scare me just as much as any other zealot.

A bunch of people who share your views have been terrorising a small English village lately because a farmer was breeding guinea pigs for a pharmateutical company. They dug up his mother's body in the churchyard to make their point about animal testing. The farmer got a list of his sins about being a cruel white man pinned to his door.

The gestapo tactics of the "absolutely good and harmless party" should chill the rest of us to the bone.

JustinoXXV
08-04-2005, 12:18 PM
Cathy, where is it a criminal offense to raise or own animals? All Eldragon has stated here is that she loves animals and that she is a leftist. She has never said anything about being willing to take up violent action against people who don't share her views.

I went to high school in rural Alabama, and I raised ducks (Muscovies, Mallards, Runners) and geese (plain domestic and Canada), dogs, cats, tadpoles into frogs, fish,etc.

That doesn't mean I'd terrorize people who didn't share my view of animals.

Likewise, someone can be against abortion without them blowing up abortion clinics or trying to kill staff who works there.

Just because you share views with someone on certain things doesn't mean that you support them on everything, or even on most things.

Roger J Carlson
08-04-2005, 04:31 PM
Sorry Eldragon you may be as harmless as alfalfa but you scare me just as much as any other zealot.Caty, I'm not afraid of people who love animals, are vegetarians (or vegans), and don't approve of hunting, even though I am moderately indifferent to animals, eat meat, and hunt occasionally. However, I AM afraid of people who use the tactics you describe, to force other people to live by their beliefs. But I think it is important to differentiate between the two groups. People can believe things (even zealously), without being a threat to others.

Mac H.
08-04-2005, 05:08 PM
Sorry Eldragon you may be as harmless as alfalfa but you scare me just as much as any other zealot.

A bunch of people who share your views have been terrorising a small English village lately ..Caty - if Eldragon scares you, you'd be terrified of me.

You see, Eldragon might like animals, but I quite like the song 'Rainbow Connection'.

You don't find my beliefs frightening enough? Well, that's because you don't remember that back in 1996 in Wanganui (New Zealand) a terrorist took an entire radio station hostage and demanded that they play Kermit the Frog's "The Rainbow Connection" continually for 12 hours to "tell people how he felt." !

Honestly - it really happened. I was in New Zealand at the time. It was such a big event, it even managed to push the ongoing story of somone's stolen lawn mower off the front page of the major newspapers!

Mac
(PS: Caty, if you still aren't terrified of me, then you might just have to accept that people can share some ideas and beliefs, but differ a lot in what they do about them....)

Caty
08-04-2005, 09:57 PM
All points taken though I was referring to Eldragons original, far from peachy posts at the beginning of the thread which became decidedly fluffier and more harmless down the line.

I love animals, keep several and make sure they get their shots and I dont go hunting. I dont care who hunts either but dont like things tortured before a clean kill.
I think I'm pretty broadminded and live and let live, hell I dont even mind vegans, just not in my kitchen unless basted with a little olive oil and Rosemary.

Maybe I was being a bit super sensitive but the tone of the earlier posts which back-pedalled to super fluffy bunny struck me as a bit scary.

Tirjasdyn
08-04-2005, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by eldragon
I am anti-violence, period. I do not kill bugs. I feed all the stray cats, oppossums and raccoons in my neighbor - on a deck I built for them in my oak tree.

We have a title for you where I come from. Bear Food. :)

I'm joking but I'm also not. You feed wild animals in "country" (be it mountains etc) you'll find bears in your living room and lions in your garbage. And they don't care what time of day it is and you look just as tasty as any thing else.

Wild animals evenutally move in when they are not afraid. this goes for raccoons too.

The other problem is that I makes them a danger to others because they are not afraid.

Raccoons at my grandfather's tear up the houses and attack. 2 ladies are responsible for feeding them in the area. If you lined up the raccoons that they've caught in the last year, it would cover their property twice.

A bear which was being feed two peaks over from my childhood home came to our house when I was a little girl. It pounded on the windows trying to get in after eating the bird seed we left outside. Can you imagine three little children hiding up stairs behind a wooden door hoping a bear couldn't get in. He came back twice.

I decided that animals have to live on my terms from then on. I have four trained cats and a puppy in training. If animals come on my property I either trap them and get ride of them or call animal control. Shooting the animals are illegal here, but I will if I am threated. Luckily I've never had to. I'm a horrible shot :)

eldragon
08-04-2005, 11:11 PM
Sorry Eldragon you may be as harmless as alfalfa but you scare me just as much as any other zealot

You have me pegged totally wrong. I am not a zealot at all.

Nor have my posts become fluffy bunny. I apologized for a goof in my wording......and the apology was sincere.


i don't even get mad when someone cuts me off in traffic, or when i have to wait in line for thirty minutes at the PO. I'm as harmless as they get.

eldragon
08-04-2005, 11:13 PM
We have a title for you where I come from. Bear Food.

I understand.


Most of my wild animals are cats. I have one raccoon everynight - but he's scared of me. (oppossums are, too.)

William Haskins
08-04-2005, 11:13 PM
"I apologized for a goof in my wording......and the apology was sincere." - Trent Lott, as he was being drummed from his leadership post

eldragon
08-04-2005, 11:15 PM
Maybe I was being a bit super sensitive but the tone of the earlier posts which back-pedalled to super fluffy bunny struck me as a bit scary.

I feel the same way about someone who can't see that I made an error ......the wording was wrong. I apologized. That's it.

It's not like I said I started an uprising against men, for Christs sake.

eldragon
08-04-2005, 11:53 PM
"I apologized for a goof in my wording......and the apology was sincere." - Trent Lott, as he was being drummed from his leadership post




So, Willie, if you are comparing me to Trent Lott, you must like me.

William Haskins
08-05-2005, 12:12 AM
no, merely pointing out that when one says things in a public venue that are racist, their apologies rarely mitigate the ramifications.

while i'm pleased that you apologized for what you said, i just wonder if it would be so quickly forgiven and swept under the rug if it had been anything like:

"no wonder i despise black people"
"no wonder i despise gay men"
"no wonder i despise asian women"
"no wonder i despise jews"

eldragon
08-05-2005, 12:15 AM
No. But, for the hundredth time ........I am white.

If a black person says "no wonder i hate black people," does everyone freak?


You know, William, I'm starting to think you and I are spending too much time on the forums.

William Haskins
08-05-2005, 12:33 AM
But, for the hundredth time ........I am white. is this another "past lives" reference? what are the odds?

JustinoXXV
08-05-2005, 02:22 AM
Gay people will say, "I hate fags" sometimes. Pam isn't the only white person I've known to make negative comments about whites. Black people will sometimes make negative comments about blacks. Ditto for any other group or race of people. There will always be people from group x or race z that have had experiences which lead them towards negative sentiments towards their group.

And while negative comments may not be nice, that doesn't mean that we should stone people for making them. Eldragon apologized. So unless people just want to be mean or hateful, why not accept her apology and be done with it?


We have a title for you where I come from. Bear Food. :)

I'm joking but I'm also not. You feed wild animals in "country" (be it mountains etc) you'll find bears in your living room and lions in your garbage. And they don't care what time of day it is and you look just as tasty as any thing else.

Wild animals evenutally move in when they are not afraid. this goes for raccoons too.

The other problem is that I makes them a danger to others because they are not afraid.

Raccoons at my grandfather's tear up the houses and attack. 2 ladies are responsible for feeding them in the area. If you lined up the raccoons that they've caught in the last year, it would cover their property twice.

A bear which was being feed two peaks over from my childhood home came to our house when I was a little girl. It pounded on the windows trying to get in after eating the bird seed we left outside. Can you imagine three little children hiding up stairs behind a wooden door hoping a bear couldn't get in. He came back twice.

I decided that animals have to live on my terms from then on. I have four trained cats and a puppy in training. If animals come on my property I either trap them and get ride of them or call animal control. Shooting the animals are illegal here, but I will if I am threated. Luckily I've never had to. I'm a horrible shot :)

As for the animals, well, it depends on whether it's a threat to you or not. Yes, call animal control if a bear or cougar comes by . But a rabbit, squirrel, bluejay, skunk, duck, goose, fox, and other smaller animals are no threat to you whatsoever. So why bother them? It seems unnecessarily cruel.

Tirjasdyn
08-05-2005, 02:29 AM
As for the animals, well, it depends on whether it's a threat to you or not. Yes, call animal control if a bear or cougar comes by . But a rabbit, squirrel, bluejay, skunk, duck, goose, fox, and other smaller animals are no threat to you whatsoever. So why bother them? It seems unnecessarily cruel.

Rabies and Black Plague.

No I am not joking. We actually have places here with signs that say "Do not Leave Car, Black Plague".

You can't call animal control if a Mtn Lion or Bear comes by. Where I lived as a child, for example, animal control was two towns away.

JustinoXXV
08-05-2005, 05:42 AM
Rabies and Black Plague.

No I am not joking. We actually have places here with signs that say "Do not Leave Car, Black Plague".

You can't call animal control if a Mtn Lion or Bear comes by. Where I lived as a child, for example, animal control was two towns away.

No, you're going overboard. I've lived all over the country, been in subway tunnels and parks that were totally infested with rats and mice, been standing under buildings and trees loaded with pigeons, etc.

I didn't get a disease and I didn't die.

I'm also curious. How many people die at the hands of bears or other animals? And how many peopel die and the hands of other PEOPLE?

Statistically, you are much more likely to be murdered by your husband than you are to get a disease from wildlife or be eaten by one. Yes, bears and cougars are predators, but out or a nation of 300 million people, I doubt more than 10 people are killed by these predators.

And all those bird species I mentioned do not spread rabies or the plague . Nor do rabbits. And I doubt there are any verifiable cases of people getting the plague because there are squirrels nearby. I've sat on park benches where people fed whole groups of squirrels. As far as I can tell no one died.

robeiae
08-05-2005, 05:46 AM
Statistically, you are much more likely to be murdered by your husband than you are to get a disease from wildlife or be eaten by one.
Just had to add to this:

Statistically, you are more likely to get murdered by your boyfriend (girlfriend)than you are by your husband (wife). Truly.

Rob :)

Roger J Carlson
08-05-2005, 04:15 PM
Just had to add to this:

Statistically, you are more likely to get murdered by your boyfriend (girlfriend)than you are by your husband (wife). Truly.

Rob :)Unless your husband/wife finds out about your boyfriend/girlfriend.

eldragon
08-05-2005, 05:50 PM
Gay people will say, "I hate fags" sometimes. Pam isn't the only white person I've known to make negative comments about whites. Black people will sometimes make negative comments about blacks. Ditto for any other group or race of people. There will always be people from group x or race z that have had experiences which lead them towards negative sentiments towards their group.

And while negative comments may not be nice, that doesn't mean that we should stone people for making them. Eldragon apologized. So unless people just want to be mean or hateful, why not accept her apology and be done with it?


Thanks Justino.

Last night, I was visiting an 85 year old black woman, who was raised in rural Alabama. She grew up as one of 12 children, in a 3 room shack in the country. I complimented her on her nightgown, and she said "Do you like it? A white woman gave it to me. I sang her a song, and didn't charge her any money, so she gave me her nightgown. White folks have always been good to me. They treat me as if I am as good as they are. When I was a kid, we could go to a white person's house and ask. "Can I have a piece of bread, Ma'm, Please? And they would give me a piece of bread. Then, I had to ask if they needed anything done in their yard. They usually did, and I did whatever they asked. After I was done, if they gave me a nickel, I had to give it to Mama. Them white folks sure was good to me."

"My mama kept a spotless home. White folks would come over and remark of what a clean house we had, and tell Mama, could she clean they house that good? She would go clean they house and they give her money, sometimes fifty cents. Them white folks sure was good to us."


"My mama kept a beautiful flower garden. She worked all morning on her flowers. White folks would come by and say "Ma'm, you sure does have the prettiest flowers. May I have some for my table? And, she would give them a big bouquet of flowers. They always thanked her everytime. White folks sure was good to us."


Then, I went to Bobby's room, a 65 year old black man, born in the south but raised in Colorado. He told me a story about how his grandma had one sister. Their next door neighbor always asked if the little sister (about 2) could spend the night, as the neighbor had no children. So, finally, they let the little girl spend the night. They never saw her again. The neighbors took the baby girl away, never to be seen again. When the family called the police, the sheriff came out and then scolded them for calling him about something so irrelevant. He was a busy man!

The two year old would be long dead by now, but Bobby still worries about her fate to this day.


I can't imagine anyone not being proud of being white, or of white history in this country. Go sit on Sally's bed and tell her how proud you are of our ancestor's who paid her a nickel to dig their potato's.

Roger J Carlson
08-05-2005, 06:07 PM
I can't imagine anyone not being proud of being white, or of white history in this country. Go sit on Sally's bed and tell her how proud you are of our ancestor's who paid her a nickel to dig their potato's.My ancestors came from Sweden, were dirt poor, never owned slaves, and never had any black person do menial labor for them. They were themselves despised and ridiculed imigrants. (Ever heard "tight-Swede" jokes?)

I'm very proud of my ancestors, and I refuse to feel guilty about, or apologize for, the acts of people to whom I am not related, just because we share skin color.

Frankly, this attitude is every bit as bigotted as a white person being surprised that a black person's house is clean.

William Haskins
08-05-2005, 06:27 PM
this thread is the height of comedy.

JustinoXXV
08-05-2005, 08:46 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the people who did what they did in the 1800s are dead. I am upset about it. Not at all.

My great-great uncle killed someone in an argument over food. I have absolutely no embarrassment over that, because he and I are not the same person.

If you go back far enough in your family history, everyone has a murderer, a rapist, a slaver, a whatever.

Now this is going to sound bad. But in some ways, where the white people who gave Sally a nickle all that bad? Back then a nickle was worth more. back then And there are plenty of people of all races today who won't give people one penny. And that's everywhere.

Actually, if a poor person in most places today came up on a well off person's property and begged/panhandled, that's sufficient cause for them to be arrested.

Were those white families's racist? Of course, especially considering the time. But even the fact that they gave her bread shows more heart than a lot of people today. Restaurants throw away tons of food (anything not eaten that day by customers is thrown in the garbage). It doesn't go to poor people.

eldragon
08-05-2005, 09:00 PM
Were those white families's racist? Of course, especially considering the time. But even the fact that they gave her bread shows more heart than a lot of people today. Restaurants throw away tons of food (anything not eaten that day by customers is thrown in the garbage). It doesn't go to poor people.

Agreed. But blacks were kept in their place. It would be quite one thing to be invited to clean a house, or cook someone's dinner, but were they ever invited to dinner as guests? And, God forbid one of Sallys brothers became too friendly with a white girl, then what do you suppose might have happened?


And, Sally is in her 80's, which meant she was born in the 1920's.

Last night, Bobby asked me why anybody thought terrorist attacks on American soil was anything new. He pointed out, that to him, a black man, he had often felt hunted and certainly not welcome. He said that a man in a white sheet, which still exists today, to him is no different than any other terrorist.

My ancestors are from France, settling in Kansas, on my father's side. But, my mother's side are from Arkansas, and while they may not have had slaves, my grandfather was racist. He threatened to disown my mother if she married a boy of Mexican descent. (She didn't.)

And, yes, my family has some serious skeletons in it's closet. On my mother's side, just downright meanness. On my father's side, money, greed, sex scandals and possibly even murder.

JustinoXXV
08-05-2005, 09:14 PM
Agreed. But blacks were kept in their place. It would be quite one thing to be invited to clean a house, or cook someone's dinner, but were they ever invited to dinner as guests? And, God forbid one of Sallys brothers became too friendly with a white girl, then what do you suppose might have happened?


And, Sally is in her 80's, which meant she was born in the 1920's.

Last night, Bobby asked me why anybody thought terrorist attacks on American soil was anything new. He pointed out, that to him, a black man, he had often felt hunted and certainly not welcome. He said that a man in a white sheet, which still exists today, to him is no different than any other terrorist.



Bobby is being ridiculous. Yes, acts of violence were committed against blacks (among others). However, foreign terrorist attacks, especially on the scale of Sept. 11th, are new. Last I checked no one has ever flown airplanes into large buildings. Al Queda didn't gave a rats butt what race people.


We all know what happened in the 20s, when the KKK was on the verge of becoming a national party. It's old news.

I'm wondering, though Eldragon, why do you have such a need to paint whites as villains and everyone else as helpless victims? Even after getting slammed by others here, you still continue.

The average black person I know in both NY or in LA would not give a homeless person bread. Ditto for people of all other races. Many will not give bums a penny. If anything, when homeless people occupy areas that are going to be hot real estate areas, pretty much the whole city wants them dumped in the ocean.

In some third world countries you have firing squads that deal with homeless children and beggars.

If you want racial harmony, Eldragon, you yourself have to be willing to some make race an issue on everything. I'm surprised you haven't made a racial issue out of why is their black ink on white paper?

Maybe you need to get out more, and get a life beyond people on death's door?

JustinoXXV
08-05-2005, 09:30 PM
Eldragon, I'll put it like this. Most people are not inclined to help someone, unless there is something in it for them or unless it is someone close to them.

Normally I wouldn't racialize things, but since you always insist, I will for the purposes of this thread.

A white woman (kitty genoese) goes through an upper middle class neighborhood (kew gardens, in NYC) at night. People see her being attacked. She's running screaming. People stare. They don't help her or call the cops. She's stabbed. She runs away from the killer, and gets stabbed again. People watch. And nothing is done.

All involved where white, but where did race get poor Kitty? Nothing . People didn't care.

Would things have been any different all concerned had been black? No. Of the blacks I know, no one is going to help anyone unless there is something in it for them. (I could say the same for people in general). So as bad as Bobby wants to talk about white people, Eldragon, let him come to New York or LA. If he's attacked by one person, especially in NY, all people (even black ones) will do is stand there and gag (stare there and acted surprised or shocked). This big city attitude was explored on Seinfield where they see a robber, but instead of helping Seinfield and his friends laugh and tape it.

I was on a subway car. I saw a young woman attack an old lady . None of the passengers, myself included, did anything. People see stuff like this and they don't want to get in the middle of a fight, nor do they want to take the time to make a police statement.

The fact that Sally's white friends didn't shoot her for tresspassing on their private property means they they weren't all that bad.

eldragon
08-05-2005, 09:52 PM
Maybe you need to get out more, and get a life beyond people on death's door?

Maybe. But the people I have talked about, though elderly, aren't at deaths door.


(No closer to death than any of the rest of us.)

eldragon
08-05-2005, 09:55 PM
If you want racial harmony, Eldragon, you yourself have to be willing to some make race an issue on everything.

Harmony like this?


I was on a subway car. I saw a young woman attack an old lady . None of the passengers, myself included, did anything. People see stuff like this and they don't want to get in the middle of a fight, nor do they want to take the time to make a police statement.

I wouldn't ignore someone being attacked. And, I am a woman who may or may not have children with her. I know my husband wouldn't ignore someone being attacked. Of all the passengers on the subway, nobody cared enough to step in and help the woman? What's nice about that kind of world?

William Haskins
08-05-2005, 09:58 PM
http://designermagazine.tripod.com/KillWhiteyBADGEjpg.jpg

jackie106
08-05-2005, 10:02 PM
Screw collective racial guilt. I have no control over what the Klan did eighty years ago or even what they are doing today. The only thing that I can control is how I choose to treat people today.



I can't imagine anyone not being proud of being white, or of white history in this country. Go sit on Sally's bed and tell her how proud you are of our ancestor's who paid her a nickel to dig their potato's.

Blanket statements like this one assume that "white people" are a homogeneous group.

"White history" is more than just Jim Crow, Strom Thurman and George Lincoln Rockwell. What about the white people who risked their lives by providing runaway slaves sanctuary on the Underground Railroad or signing up black voters in Selma?

Assuming that all Americans of European ancestry are somehow to blame for the sins of segregation past is ludicrious. It's a little like saying that all Muslims are terrorists because a few idiots decide to blow themselves up on the London subway system.

Jackie

eldragon
08-05-2005, 11:03 PM
And German history consists of more than WW2, but that's the main thing remembered.

William Haskins
08-05-2005, 11:09 PM
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=288449&postcount=134

jackie106
08-05-2005, 11:37 PM
And German history consists of more than WW2, but that's the main thing remembered.

Does that make hating all Germans okay? There were Germans who opposed National Socialism. Have you ever heard of Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

People are more than just their racial or ethnic group. I feel sorry for people who can't see beyond that.

Jackie

sassandgroove
08-05-2005, 11:38 PM
:Jaw:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/26/eveningnews/main691106.shtml
I didn't see this one until today. Thank God it was dropped, but the fact that it was even proposed... well, my emoticon says it all.

This caught my eye today. Not everyone in Alabama is like that. I hate when we get bad press, because I like it here...

JustinoXXV
08-05-2005, 11:47 PM
Harmony like this?



I wouldn't ignore someone being attacked. And, I am a woman who may or may not have children with her. I know my husband wouldn't ignore someone being attacked. Of all the passengers on the subway, nobody cared enough to step in and help the woman? What's nice about that kind of world?

Yes, nobody. No one wants to get involved in these kinds of situations where they don't know the attackers. They may be risking their lives. Or if they do beat the crap out of the attackers, then that's an incident and involves them directly in the situation, and they may end up having to have long talks with the NYPD (unpleasant people).

As outsiders to NYC, yes, you and your husband might very well try to help . If you'd lived there fore any length of time you'd likely do nothing.

I recall a situation on a subway station where a disturbed child was screaming, and the adult she was with pushed her down to the ground. No one directly intervened. I did go to the station clerk and tell her to call the police and report (many of the subway stations have police stations inside) the incident. A couple of other people also went over had the MTA call the police.

But you see crazy things like this in the city all the time, and you don't want to directly involve yourself in everyone.

As for the KKK type things being the main thing the US is remembered for, I'd bet if you told blacks in Africa, the Caribbean, or Latin America they all they had to do is work on a plantation for 6 months and get automatic citizenship, the US would be flooded with new arrivals.

There isn't any mass migration of blacks out of the country. There is immigration of blacks to this country. As you don't need an exit visa to leave the US, that's proof that slavery isn't the main thing people think about when the think of the US or US history.

The US, unlike many countries, forbids discrimination on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, sex, etc.


When I say Eldragon needs to get out, the fact that she always calls people white and black is proof of that. Neither of these groups of people all speak the same language, have the same religion, or have the same culture. Start speaking to people whose world view is broader than Mississippi in the 1920s.

As for European Western culture, I like Greek and Roman mythology, I like Shakespeare, I love classical music like Ave Maria, etc. None of this directly caused the enslavement of people. This alphabet we're using is the Latin alphabet, which came from the Roman Empire.

As for the United States, it invented modern applications of electricity such as light bulbs, radio, computers, television, the internet, cable tv, etc. The US also made major medical advances such as antibiotics, open heart surgery, among others. Now of course you had people of all races who contributed. Still, that's proof that Americans of all races had a lot to be proud of. Oh, speaking of World War II, the US helped END that war and saved German lives.

As for German history and culture, I know a lot more about it than World War II. The Pre Christian Germanic people had a very interesting religion. And a lot of artists and scientists who would influence the West came from Germany.

JustinoXXV
08-05-2005, 11:51 PM
Jackie is right, people are individuals and human beings first. No individual is an ethnic group.

And actually, a leftist like Pam should appreciate that in modern Germany, you have a lot more social services than you do in the US. You have better pensions, free medical care, and much greater legal protections in the workforce. I'm not saying we should become like Germany, but it's the height of ignorance to say that their country hasn't changed at all since World War II.

astonwest
08-06-2005, 06:08 AM
This caught my eye today. Not everyone in Alabama is like that. I hate when we get bad press, because I like it here...

Kansas seems to get a lot of bad press too...
Maybe we could start a contest...

eldragon
08-06-2005, 07:11 AM
When I say Eldragon needs to get out, the fact that she always calls people white and black is proof of that. Neither of these groups of people all speak the same language, have the same religion, or have the same culture. Start speaking to people whose world view is broader than Mississippi in the 1920s.


Oh, like my husband, who is a Serbian man from Yugoslavia? And, my ex-boyfriend of 3 years, was a black cuban.....type of different colors speak different languages?

Or, my Stepfather who is Hungarian?
Or, a friend from the nursing home who is from Portugal? (JOSE)
Or, a friend from the nursing home who is from Vietnam? (Fong - age 41.)
Or, a friend from the nursing home who is from Chile? (Maria - age 85.)
Or, a friend form the nursing home who is from Sweden?
Or, a friend from the nursing home who is from Japan? (Ieko)


I have lived in Mississippi for 5 years. Before that, I worked in a major casino in Las Vegas for 11 years. I worked with Mexicans, Cubans, Portugese, Filipinos, Jamaicans, Polish, Yugoslavs, Russians, Hungarians, Costa Ricans, El Salvadorians, Germans..............gosh........so many people from so many places.

Before that, I lived in Atlanta for 3 years, while I went to college. Funny, I don't remember any Internationals there, save a very famous English hairdresser I did modeling for. (Scott Cole.)



My Cuban boyfriend was dark skinned, but he spoke Spanish, listened to Salsa, and ate black beans and rice. He was grouped with black Americans often, and it did irritate him, as he enjoyed a different culture. We were together 3 years.

I had a very good friend who was mulatto, from New Orleans. His dad was black and his mother was white, and they moved to San Francisco when he was young. We were the best of friends for about five years. I visited him in San Francisco, and he visited me in Vegas. He wasn't black or white, he was "Conrad."


No, I don't see only black and white..............but let me tell you .........when my Cuban boyfriend and I went to the cranberry festival in Bandon, Oregon .......he stuck out like a sore thumb .....and although he was light skinned.....the stares we got that day sure made us feel like a specticle. (sp.)

eldragon
08-06-2005, 07:34 AM
And actually, a leftist like Pam should appreciate that in modern Germany, you have a lot more social services than you do in the US. You have better pensions, free medical care, and much greater legal protections in the workforce. I'm not saying we should become like Germany, but it's the height of ignorance to say that their country hasn't changed at all since World War II.

Justino, I never said Germany hasn't changed since WW2. I said, that WW2, which was only 60 years ago ........is still remembered whenever anyone talks about Germany. While there were German citizens who hid Jews in their homes at the risk of death, there were still others who turned in their neighbors to the gestapo.

And, Hitler didn't commit heinous acts by himself, he had alot of help. But, I won't even go there.

I am well aware that Germany today is a different place. I have been friends with several German immigrants, in fact, and they don't even talk about the war. It was such a horrible event, nobody wants to claim it.


Isn't the slogan for 9/11 ......Never Forget? At what point do we forget? Is it too soon to forget WW2 and everyone who was marched to their deaths for being different?

The hilarious thing about this thread, is that I have come across as someone who discriminates against others. That is completely false. I am against anyone who discriminates against others ......for being black .....for being Jewish, for being a woman...........for being gay.


And the white man has persecuted blacks, gays, Indians, Jews.......etc.....for centuries. But God forbid someone says it. Even if I am white, I am evil. Is the white man not evil for his deeds of hate?


Am I guilty for the sins of my forefathers? No, not really. But I can sit and listen to someone who is 85 years old and was persecuted for being black, and feel bad about it. Why? Because I was not discriminated for the color of my skin, and I had no say in the matter. I can feel the pain of someone who has been hurt. It's called compassion, and I refuse to apologize for having it.


I understand not wanting to get involved with someone being attacked, but it's a sad world we live in when nobody tries to help an old lady in a time of need. Unfortunately, its nothing new with mankind. We only get involved when it's safe. From far away.

What if someone had the chance to avoid a catastrophe, like 9/11, but didn't want to bother with getting involved, or risk being hurt? Magnify the old lady on the subway by several thousand, and its news. One person apparently isn't worth bothering with.

William Haskins
08-06-2005, 07:55 AM
Even if I am white, I am evil.

get some help.

jackie106
08-06-2005, 10:14 AM
The hilarious thing about this thread, is that I have come across as someone who discriminates against others.
Why do you think that is?

eldragon
08-06-2005, 06:10 PM
Why do you think that is?

Because nobody reads everything I say ......they just take two or three words out of a huge post and grab onto them.

It doesn't matter. Burn me at the stake for saying things as I see them. Meanwhile, I'm out there helping people. That's why, just Wednesday night, someone called me from the nursing home to come talk with a woman who is dying from lung cancer. She had just moved in, and was depressed. They said "She needs to get to know Pam." At 8 pm, I went right over to meet her.

I listen to people. And I hear them. Face to face. Being persecuted by the mob is a compliment - it shows I have character enough to stand out in the crowd.

sellthepharm
08-06-2005, 06:17 PM
Justino, I never said Germany hasn't changed since WW2. I said, that WW2, which was only 60 years ago ........is still remembered whenever anyone talks about Germany. While there were German citizens who hid Jews in their homes at the risk of death, there were still others who turned in their neighbors to the gestapo.

And, Hitler didn't commit heinous acts by himself, he had alot of help. But, I won't even go there.

I am well aware that Germany today is a different place. I have been friends with several German immigrants, in fact, and they don't even talk about the war. It was such a horrible event, nobody wants to claim it.


Isn't the slogan for 9/11 ......Never Forget? At what point do we forget? Is it too soon to forget WW2 and everyone who was marched to their deaths for being different?

The hilarious thing about this thread, is that I have come across as someone who discriminates against others. That is completely false. I am against anyone who discriminates against others ......for being black .....for being Jewish, for being a woman...........for being gay.


And the white man has persecuted blacks, gays, Indians, Jews.......etc.....for centuries. But God forbid someone says it. Even if I am white, I am evil. Is the white man not evil for his deeds of hate?


Am I guilty for the sins of my forefathers? No, not really. But I can sit and listen to someone who is 85 years old and was persecuted for being black, and feel bad about it. Why? Because I was not discriminated for the color of my skin, and I had no say in the matter. I can feel the pain of someone who has been hurt. It's called compassion, and I refuse to apologize for having it.


I understand not wanting to get involved with someone being attacked, but it's a sad world we live in when nobody tries to help an old lady in a time of need. Unfortunately, its nothing new with mankind. We only get involved when it's safe. From far away.

What if someone had the chance to avoid a catastrophe, like 9/11, but didn't want to bother with getting involved, or risk being hurt? Magnify the old lady on the subway by several thousand, and its news. One person apparently isn't worth bothering with.



Eldragon, are you consumed with guilt?

Roger J Carlson
08-06-2005, 06:38 PM
The hilarious thing about this thread, is that I have come across as someone who discriminates against others. That is completely false. I am against anyone who discriminates against others ......for being black .....for being Jewish, for being a woman...........for being gay.Actually, you do NOT discriminate, and that's the problem. You lump all white people into the same bigotted, hateful group. If you DID discriminate, you would see that many white people (much like yourself) do not belong in that group. However, you ARE bigotted because you are using the same reasoning against white people that you claim white people as a group use against other races.


And the white man has persecuted blacks, gays, Indians, Jews.......etc.....for centuries. But God forbid someone says it. Even if I am white, I am evil. Is the white man not evil for his deeds of hate?No, "The white man" is not evil. The white men (and white women) who did these deeds are evil. As I said above, lumping all white people into a group is the very same behavior you claim to despise. I present this statement as proof of my claims above, ie that you are bigotted against white people as a group.



Am I guilty for the sins of my forefathers? No, not really. But I can sit and listen to someone who is 85 years old and was persecuted for being black, and feel bad about it. Why? Because I was not discriminated for the color of my skin, and I had no say in the matter. I can feel the pain of someone who has been hurt. It's called compassion, and I refuse to apologize for having it.The interesting thing about this is that YOU claim Sally was persecuted because of her race, but SHE claims that white people have been good to her. Isn't it just a little elitist of you to decide for her that she was persecuted? "Poor, old, black Sally. She's so simple, she doesn't even know that she's been done dirt." I know you didn't actually say that, but that's the impression I got from your post. Maybe Sally prefers to see the good in people rather than the bad. That's rather refreshing.


Because nobody reads everything I say ......they just take two or three words out of a huge post and grab onto them.You will note that I am not just grabbing a few words and responding to them. I am quoting large sections and responding the thrust of your entire post. By your words, you claim you are "against anyone who discriminates against others" and yet you do the same thing againt white people.

JustinoXXV
08-06-2005, 06:57 PM
Actually, Eldragon, I too find your posts offensive.

You constantly reduce black people to poor victims, in order to make yourself seem like such a cool white liberal. That is offensive.

The fact you constantly try to say black=victim=poor person is offensive.

The fact that you don't want to believe people of other races don't oppress people and aren't as power or money hungry as whites to me implies you don't really see them as human.

The fact that all the black people you mention are old people with one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel or aids victims in hospices is telling as well.

You say you've known all these people from around the world and that you husband is from Yugoslavia. Yet you certainly don't reflect it in your posts.

Look at the original post on the thread. Jenna was clearly bothered by that legislature's attempt to get people to vote on his bill. So she came out AGAINST that ONE person's actions.

Because he was pushing for it. She did not criticize all men, all Christians, all whites, etc. She criticized a person for doing something which is wrong.

You seem to suffer from an extreme case of COLLECTIVISM/GROUP THINK and in your world view, there are apparently no individuals.

robeiae
08-06-2005, 07:46 PM
And the white man has persecuted blacks, gays, Indians, Jews.......etc.....for centuries. But God forbid someone says it. Even if I am white, I am evil. Is the white man not evil for his deeds of hate?
Well, I don't really want to "pile on" here, but I think some more can be said about your thoughts here. History is not, IMO, the story of collective consciousnesses. It is not a process wherein cultures act out a drama irrespective of individuals. This was Hegel's big mistake, a mistake continued by Marx, a mistake that continues to inform many of the perspectives of individuals of both "right" and "left" viewpoints.

History unfolds, it is true, on a worldwide stage with wars, revolutionary changes, and the rise and fall of cultures, religions, ideologies, and nations. But the causal agents of history remain individuals. There is no ideal that can be called a "white man," any more than there is one for an "American," a "European," a "Greek," a "proletariat," a "capitalist," a "Jew," a "black," etc.

History from the wrong-headed perspective of the ideal type leads to very bad things. In this country, it has led, IMO, to a self-perpetuating welfare state for many members of society. In Germany, it led (after WWII) to a staggering decline in intellectualism. In the Middle East, well we all know what is happening there.

With regard to myself, let me say that my family has been in the New World since the seventeenth century. My ancestors owned slaves, fought for the Confederacy, and no doubt, some were members of the KKK. Am I responsible for their misdeeds by virtue of my blood? Am I permanently tied to a heritage that therefore defines me? Of course, such a view assumes that bloodlines are definable in a limited scope, that I really have such a heritage. Aryanism?



It's called compassion, and I refuse to apologize for having it.
Good. It's clear that you have this quality, at least to me. But I think you forget that compassion only works when it is applied to individuals as individuals. Having compassion for a race as a race is simply impractical. Moreover, there is no logical reason to have more compassion, IMO, for a black woman than a white woman simply because of skin color. That is racism.

For what it's worth.

Rob :)

eldragon
08-06-2005, 08:08 PM
The fact that all the black people you mention are old people with one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel or aids victims in hospices is telling as well.


The only person i know dying of AIDS is white.

In regards to my husband being from Yugoslavia, let me tell you (not him) but his parents are very bigoted. They have problems with people of other religions (Christian Orthodox VS. Croatian Catholics,) and you should hear them talk about gypsies. Don't forget the "ethnic cleansing" that was going on in the last war in the Balkans.

You never heard racist remarks until you have spent time with my mothers Hungarian partner. He uses the "n" word constantly. He hates Russians , hates Jews ........and speaks highly of Germans (Nazi's to be more precise.) They were over for dinner once, and I was serving Jewish Rye bread, he refused to eat it. Everyone at the table looked at me, but I didn't say anything. He's 72 years old with terminal cancer.......not likely to change his views.

With a Yugoslav and a Hungarian at the table, things could get mighty spooky conversation wise. They still stick to old grudges carried over for centuries.

Yugoslavs are so separate, they can tell by each others last name what religion they are. Certain names are Croation, others are Serb.....still others are Albanian, Macedonian, etc.

eldragon
08-06-2005, 08:19 PM
Good. It's clear that you have this quality, at least to me. But I think you forget that compassion only works when it is applied to individuals as individuals. Having compassion for a race as a race is simply impractical. Moreover, there is no logical reason to have more compassion, IMO, for a black woman than a white woman simply because of skin color. That is racism.

For what it's worth.

Rob :)

I've neglected to mention all the white people I care about. There are just as many, if not more. I'm only giving slices of information about the people I know. The conversations we get into (say, Phyllis.....a 72 year old retired go-go dancer from New Orleans who I had some of her beautiful pictures professionally restored,) are different. We talk about life in the French Quarter in the 50's. I paid $50 out of my own pocket to have her pictures restored, and told her I had a friend do it for free. I didn't want her to feel obligated into paying me back.

Or, Daryl, a 41 year old man who is dying of AIDS .......looking at days now. I have done for him everything he has needed since last October. From buying him clothes, getting him herbal remedies for various ailments (genetian violet for thrush,) vitamins, special foods ..........I have supplied him with coffee, creamer, and lots of snacks and other foods for months. I've never taken a cent from him. He has my phone number, and if he needs me, he calls. He doesn't have any family to lay claim to.....so I am his family.

There are many others .....white, black, Spanish, Asian, you name it. I was only referring to conversations I have had with two people recently.

JustinoXXV
08-06-2005, 08:21 PM
So then my next question is, why can you not see people as individuals? Why do you always seemingly refer to people as their race/ethnicity?

eldragon
08-06-2005, 08:35 PM
I do see them as individuals. But, I can't describe people without physical descriptions, typing on a computer.

Neither can you. I guarantee that when you are asked to describe someone you know, you use race and sex in the description.


Some descriptions are obvious - for example - a blonde woman. you don't need to add white to the description, usually. A black haired man. If the police asked her to describe someone, would you say. "Hmm.... he had black hair and wore a red shirt?"

Or, he had two eyes, a nose and a mouth. Oh, and two ears. A couple of arms.

No, you'd say "White male, black hair." ETC.

William Haskins
08-06-2005, 09:09 PM
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." - MLK

eldragon
08-06-2005, 09:15 PM
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." - MLK



Who was judging them based on the color of their skin?

William Haskins
08-06-2005, 09:58 PM
race-wise, it was white people.
mentality-wise, it was people like you, just aimed in a different direction.

eldragon
08-06-2005, 10:02 PM
Why bother.

William Haskins
08-06-2005, 10:22 PM
calm down, ellie.

you asked me who it was that MLK would be concerned about judging his children. i replied, quite logically, white people.

however, one can't ignore the fact that any categorical, prejudiced (as in "pre-judging") attitude toward his children would be rooted in painting an entire race with one brush stroke. content of character is an individual trait; race is not.

my extrapolation of that fact to you is rock solid. you, like those racists that king lamented, categorically condemn the white race for collective crimes. your racism is not to suppress white people (though i think, in your twisted view, you would find that very satisfying), but it is no less bigoted as a mental process.

so, save your histrionics for someone you can lather up. you made an apology many posts back, and you got a pass from just about everyone, THAT, my dear, is the political correctness of which you speak.

since then, you have defiantly backslid into the very same sentiments, simply dressed up in more diplomatic language.

if racism/prejudice/bigotry is wrong, it's wrong from any source and when directed toward any group. for a extraordinarily (albeit self-confessed) compassionate person, who seeks to do only good and would hurt neither man nor beast, you do seem to practice a mercenary and ruthless philosophy of an eye for an eye.

eldragon
08-06-2005, 11:00 PM
an eye for an eye

Slaves were kept as property. They were murdered, sold, raped, and used as you would an old mule or a piece of machinery. Many babies were taken from their mothers immediately after birth, to be handed over to a designated wetnurse, who cared for newborns. The child's birthday wasn't recorded, and the parents were often dispursed or sold so that no family could group together.



"She [Maryís mistress] taught me to do all sorts of household work; to wash and bake, pick cotton and wool, and wash floors, and cook. After Hetty died [...] I had now to milk eleven cows every morning before sunrise, sitting among the damp weeds; to take care of the cattle as well as the children; and to do the work of the house. There was no end to my toils -- no end to my blows."



Although the labour women had to perform was arduous, they sometimes also had to undergo the degradation of becoming a concubine or common-law wife to a planter or other white master. As well, any children born to slave parents were immediately considered slaves themselves, who could be sold as property by the master in spite of the wishes of the parents.


Thomas Phillips, a slave-ship captain, wrote an account of his activities in A Journal of a Voyage (1746)

I have been informed that some commanders have cut off the legs or arms of the most willful slaves, to terrify the rest, for they believe that, if they lose a member, they cannot return home again.


Dr. Thomas Trotter, a physician working on the slave-ship, Brookes, was interviewed by a House of Commons (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Pcommons.htm) committee in 1790. This is how he replied when he was asked if the "slaves had room to turn themselves".

No. The slaves that are out of irons are locked "spoonways"" and locked to one another. It is the duty of the first mate to see them stowed in this manner every morning; those which do not get quickly into their places are compelled by the cat and, such was the situation when stowed in this manner, and when the ship had much motion at sea, they were often miserably bruised against the deck or against each other. I have seen their breasts heaving and observed them draw their breath, with all those laborious and anxious efforts for life which we observe in expiring animals subjected by experiment to bad air of various kinds.


Right - I have the same mindset as slaveholders.

William Haskins
08-06-2005, 11:16 PM
I have the same mindset as slaveholders.

you play a piss-poor game of 3-card monty. the discussion was about MLK, more than a century after the end of the civil war.

robeiae
08-06-2005, 11:24 PM
Thomas Phillips, a slave-ship captain, wrote an account of his activities in A Journal of a Voyage (1746)

I have been informed that some commanders have cut off the legs or arms of the most willful slaves, to terrify the rest, for they believe that, if they lose a member, they cannot return home again.


Dr. Thomas Trotter, a physician working on the slave-ship, Brookes, was interviewed by a House of Commons (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Pcommons.htm) committee in 1790. This is how he replied when he was asked if the "slaves had room to turn themselves".

No. The slaves that are out of irons are locked "spoonways"" and locked to one another. It is the duty of the first mate to see them stowed in this manner every morning; those which do not get quickly into their places are compelled by the cat and, such was the situation when stowed in this manner, and when the ship had much motion at sea, they were often miserably bruised against the deck or against each other. I have seen their breasts heaving and observed them draw their breath, with all those laborious and anxious efforts for life which we observe in expiring animals subjected by experiment to bad air of various kinds.


Right - I have the same mindset as slaveholders.
'Course, these citations do not reference "slaveholders," they reference participants in the slave trade--two very different groups, though I'm not suggesting the former "group" was better. As Justino has mentioned, here and elsewhere, the slave trade was not carried out exclusively by Europeans. Have you ever seen a journal from a slave ship crewed and captained by black Africans? Do you think they treated their "cargo" better because of skin color?

Rob :)

eldragon
08-07-2005, 01:12 AM
Do you think they treated their "cargo" better because of skin color?

No, and I don't think things became much better for them when they got on land.

This afternoon, I was visiting someone and his brother-n-law came into the room and picked up a hat with a confederate flag on it, and said "If the south would have won, we would all be better off."

BTW ..........the man who said it owns a multi-million $ company.


Sure, things are better now than they used to be .......25, 50, 100 years ago. But how much better, and why?

Society had to be forced to accept black people in the free world. Here's a story for you:

Lilie Mae Bradford had kowtowed to white people her entire life. She stepped off the sidewalk when she crossed their paths, even if they were younger. She called them "Sir" and "Ma'am," even if they called her "girl." She drank from the "colored" water fountains, sat in the "colored" waiting rooms, and used the "colored" toilets -- even though they were always inferior.


And then one day, something clicked. It was May 11, 1951. After a long, hard day at work, Lilie Mae stepped up to a Montgomery city bus, purchased a ticket from the driver and asked for a transfer. Then she stepped down and rushed to the "Negro Section" at the back of the bus before the driver had time to shut the door and speed away without her, as he was known to do. Some days Lilie Mae made it; some days she didn't. This time, she did. She gratefully sank into a chair and glanced at her transfer. The driver had made an error on it. Now, blacks weren't supposed to go around correcting white people's mistakes back then. This was Alabama, after all. Jim Crow wasn't just a set of laws here -- it was a way of life.

http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/images/busstop.jpg (javascript:openWindow('busstop_bg.html', 'bigimage');) http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/gifs/busstop.gifBut Lilie Mae Bradford was sick and tired of being sick and tired. She decided to stand up for her rights. She marched up the aisle through the "White Section" of the bus to the driver's seat and asked for another transfer. He took one look at her and yelled: "******, go to the back of the bus where you belong!"


http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/gifs/road.gif

Embassy Suites coup d'etat / Picture it: It's 7:30 p.m. and Jen and I have no place to stay. (javascript:openWindow('031401stephbus_rk.html', 'bigimage');)

Lilie Mae didn't bat an eyelash. "If you give me my money back, I'll go back," she said, then took a seat in the front of the bus alongside the whites.

Silence swept through the bus. The driver was so stunned it took him a moment to recover. When Lilie Mae refused to move a second time, he called the police and had her thrown in jail.

http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/images/buschurch.jpg (javascript:openWindow('buschurch_bg.html', 'bigimage');) http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/gifs/buschurch.gif"I knew sooner or later I'd be arrested," Lilie Mae, now 70, told Jennifer and me as we sat around her kitchen table, spell-bound. "I just couldn't adjust to the system. I wanted to be free."

Lilie Mae didn't realize it at the time, but she had just taken her first step down the road to freedom. Three and a half years later, she would be joined by thousands of her people. Together, they would kick-start the Civil Rights Movement that ultimately ended 400 years of segregation.

http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/images/bustaxi.jpg (javascript:openWindow('bustaxi_bg.html', 'bigimage');) http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/gifs/bustaxi.gifThe ball officially got rolling when a 43-year-old NAACP activist named Rosa Parks refused to give up her bus seat to a white man on December 1, 1955. Although Lilie Mae and other African Americans had been imprisoned for the same "crime" before her, the NAACP put the spotlight on Rosa. A representative of the Women's Political Council named Jo Ann Robinson printed up more than 50,000 flyers asking blacks to boycott Montgomery's city buses on the day Rosa Parks showed up to court. She then plastered them to the walls of the black community -- from beauty parlors to beer halls. Teachers told their students about the boycott; pastors, their parishioners; workers, one another. "The time is now. If not now, when? If not us, who? If not here, where?" was their rallying cry.

That Monday, Rosa Parks was found guilty of violating the 1945 Alabama bus segregation statute and fined $10. But one only had to look past the courthouse doors to see who really won the case. Nearly 500 blacks were holding a vigil on the courthouse lawn, and in the streets beyond -- the city buses were virtually empty.

http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/images/busmlk.jpg (javascript:openWindow('busmlk_bg.html', 'bigimage');) http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/gifs/busmlk.gifThe Montgomery Bus Boycott had officially begun.

That evening, more than 5,000 men, women and children crammed into the Holt Street Baptist Church to discuss what had happened. They formed an organization called the Montgomery Improvement Association (MIA) and elected a 26-year-old, up-and-coming Reverend from Atlanta named Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. as their leader. He wrote up a list of their demands, including more bus stops in black neighborhoods, the hiring of black bus drivers, and dignified treatment. Everyone agreed not to ride again until their measures had been met.

They thought it would take a week or two. It continued for 13 months.

The MIA helped people get to and from work by organizing pick-up and drop-off stations for carpools and taxis, but the majority of blacks simply walked.

http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/images/buslord.jpg (javascript:openWindow('buslord_bg.html', 'bigimage');) http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/gifs/buslord.gif"It took about an hour and a half for me to walk to work, each way," Lilie Mae remembered. "If it was raining, I'd have to take a city taxi, which cost me half of what I earned. But it was worth the sacrifice."

White Montgomery didn't know what hit it. Not only were buses losing an average of $3,000 a day (as blacks constituted three-quarters of their patronage), but downtown businesses were hurting as well. Even upper-class whites were affected by the boycott, as they suddenly had to chauffeur their housekeepers around.

http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/gifs/alamap.gifThe city retaliated by throwing dozens of leaders of the boycott (and sympathetic taxi drivers) in jail. Some white segregationists also resorted to violence. Bombs exploded in four black churches and several homes -- including that of Dr. King. But while he worried terribly about his wife and newborn daughter, Dr. King urged his fellow African Americans to continue the protest.

"We have known humiliation, we have known abusive language, we have been plunged into the abyss of oppression. And we decided to raise up only with the weapon of protest. We must use the weapon of love. We must have compassion and understanding for those who hate us," he said.

http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/031401/images/buskathy.jpg (javascript:openWindow('buskathy_bg.html', 'bigimage');) With Dr. King's wise words echoing in their hearts, blacks persisted in their boycott. As one protester said, their feet may have ached, but their souls were rested. And in November 1956, the Supreme Court outlawed segregation on local bus lines. After 381 days of protest, blacks were finally able to board buses as citizens instead of inferiors.

Even more significantly, the Montgomery Bus Boycott showed the world that African Americans had had enough. Something had "clicked" in their collective mindset. They weren't going to endure the chains of slavery and the humiliation of Jim Crow any longer. Their days of kowtowing were over. The Civil Rights Movement had officially begun.

maestrowork
08-07-2005, 01:24 AM
I'm not white, or black, or Latino, but I live in a predominantly non-Asian community. I see good people, bad people, racist people of all colors and background. Do I have my own racial biases. You bet. I'll be hypocritical to say I don't. But I try to look at each individual as a person, and not the whole race in general. As an American who is not white, I've experienced racism first-hand. As an Asian, I've also seen racism in my homeland first-hand (against other nationalities). As a Chinese saying goes: Crows are black everywhere.

I consider myself very open-minded, and hardly racist. But I do have my biases, one way or another. I think I'm comfortable to say that most people have racial biases, at least a little. The more shielded you are from the "rest of the world," the more biased you are.

It's human nature to fear things that are not familiar or different. But you know what, when I look at very young children of all races, I don't see racism. I believe racism is taught (as the song from South Pacific goes, "You've got to be taught to be afraid, of people whose eyes are oddly made, of people whose skins are of different shades; you've got to be carefully taught"). Throw a white man from a western world in a country that is 100% Asian or African, and he will learn to be humble or at least see race issues differently. As a Chinese woman complains about racism in the US, she is speaking ill of the "foreign devils" in her own language... You're talking about years and years of conditioning.

It's only racism if you're in the minority and if people are "against" you. But I think racism is simply racism. It doesn't matter if you're black or white or brown or yellow.

I had the good fortune of coming here to the US at a younger age, and was immediately exposed to a multi-racial, multi-cultural environment. My first best friends in college were an South-Asian Indian guy and an African-American football player. My experiences really opened my eyes about race issues. Granted, my happy-go-lucky personality had something to do with it, but still, without those experiences, I wonder what I would be like now.

JustinoXXV
08-07-2005, 01:25 AM
Not every description comes down to race. I could just as easily say the tall guy or the lady with the big nose.

But that's neither here or nor there.

The original post was about an homophobic legislature who tried to get a bill passed banning gay books or gay authors.

The bill did not pass.

So what does slavery, the 1800s, the KKK, or any of this have to do with a bill that did not even pass?

If you aren't a racist yourself, why inject racial issues into things that do not call for it?

Have you ever bothered to read history books that don't involve slavery or that don't cover the US 1800 to 1920?

JustinoXXV
08-07-2005, 01:39 AM
And why do you constantly ignore oppressive black leaders, such as Bashir of the Sudan, or the caliphate which rules Northern Nigeria?

Under their Islamic law, if you were raped, you'd have to produce for male witnesses and a confession for the rapist, or else you could be EXECUTED as an adultress.

Here's where Safiyah was sentenced to death by stoning.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200203210871.html

http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_2002/tows_past_20021004_b.jhtml

If it weren't for the international community (people of all races, including whites) these two women would be EXECUTED for ADULTERY.

You can also read upon Usman Dan Fodio's conquest of much of West Africa, and his creation of a huge empire. Of course, a lot of people were enslaved and killed.

http://countrystudies.us/nigeria/9.htm

The Fulani (an African ethnic group) conquest of much of West Africa lead to the last great wave of African slaves being sent to South America, the Caribbean, and the US.

Europeans did not go to Africa and kidnap black people. Ethnic group A, would sell some of its slaves to whoever wanted them, whether Africa, Arab, or European.

I think you're also racist in equating slave with black, Eldragon. All races of people have been enslaved at some point.

Now, giving the examples I've even you about Amina and Safiyah, why do you think whites are more oppressive than blacks?

Read this where a Pakistani young woman was raped for punishment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8121-2002Jul26

Where you in Pakistan, this could have been one of your daughters. People have had oppressive governments everywhere. Equating it with one nation or race is simply wrong.

JustinoXXV
08-07-2005, 01:46 AM
Now, though I'm disgusted with the treatment of Safiyah and Amina, I would not say all other black men are awful because of what can go on in Northern Nigeria. I wouldn't say all Africans, West Africans, or Hausa (the ethnic group that these women belong to) are like that.

But I will condemn the actions of the state governments in Northern Nigeria.

Likewise, I won't say that all Pakistani are evil or bad, though that is an awful custom. I'll condemn the custom, and say that they need to outlaw it and ban it (Pakistan recently did).

So Eldragon, if you are not racist, all you had to do is condemn the actions of that legislature who was trying to do something wrong. His race had nothing to do with it. It's not like the state government of Alabama passed the bill! It was a proposal.

By the way, as a gay guy, thank god I am leaving in the US. Because if I had been born in some place like Northern Nigeria or Northern Sudan, and had come out as gay, what do you think they would have done to me?

An admitted homosexual could also be sentenced to death for adultery in Northern Nigeria or the Sudan. I'd much rather be in the US, which has great civil rights laws.

Tirjasdyn
08-08-2005, 08:16 AM
You asked for a reason why kill small animals, gave two very good ones. Sorry you don't like them.

As far a people being mor of a danger, your right, but then it all depends on where and how you live.

I've grown up with a very different view of animals. They are food unless circumstances prove other wise. Disease is one factor. Money is another. This country is not so old that there aren't those of us under 30 who remember having to live off what we hunted to survive. Would you starve rather than hurt animal? Would you starve or die of a disease that could come from handling an animal that might be a carrier. Can you imagine a situation it which this would be a life? Can you imagine that it would not be as desperate as it sounds?

Birds, squirrels and rodents (rabbits too) can carry the plague. However we control populations and have a cure. Still it happens. I've know two people in my life time who have contracted it.



No, you're going overboard. I've lived all over the country, been in subway tunnels and parks that were totally infested with rats and mice, been standing under buildings and trees loaded with pigeons, etc.

I didn't get a disease and I didn't die.

I'm also curious. How many people die at the hands of bears or other animals? And how many peopel die and the hands of other PEOPLE?

Statistically, you are much more likely to be murdered by your husband than you are to get a disease from wildlife or be eaten by one. Yes, bears and cougars are predators, but out or a nation of 300 million people, I doubt more than 10 people are killed by these predators.

And all those bird species I mentioned do not spread rabies or the plague . Nor do rabbits. And I doubt there are any verifiable cases of people getting the plague because there are squirrels nearby. I've sat on park benches where people fed whole groups of squirrels. As far as I can tell no one died.

JustinoXXV
08-08-2005, 02:36 PM
You asked for a reason why kill small animals, gave two very good ones. Sorry you don't like them.

As far a people being mor of a danger, your right, but then it all depends on where and how you live.

I've grown up with a very different view of animals. They are food unless circumstances prove other wise. Disease is one factor. Money is another. This country is not so old that there aren't those of us under 30 who remember having to live off what we hunted to survive. Would you starve rather than hurt animal? Would you starve or die of a disease that could come from handling an animal that might be a carrier. Can you imagine a situation it which this would be a life? Can you imagine that it would not be as desperate as it sounds?

Birds, squirrels and rodents (rabbits too) can carry the plague. However we control populations and have a cure. Still it happens. I've know two people in my life time who have contracted it.

And people carry the flu, colds, chicken pox, herpes, aids, hepatitis, and a whole host of other diseases.

Your chances of getting a lethal disease from a bird or a small animal are next to nothing. Now if your husband (or wife) does something behind your back with the wrong person, you can die a slow, lingering death (Aids).

Or people do get raped (women especially, children get molested, and in the context of prison men get raped). So you could get Aids that way.

And I don't think there are any verifiable incidents of birds carrying the plague. Rodents can have it, yes. However, even in large cities (which have the highest populations of rats due to plenty of food and lack of mammalian predators), you still don't have cases of people dying from the plague. There are plenty of Aids deaths though.

So should we shoot people because we can get diseases from them and because they are far more likely to infect us than a bird or squirrel with something fatal? I'll also ad that severe flu cases, especially for the elderly, can be fatal (to the point where we've had more flu deaths some years than aids).

So no, you haven't given any good reason for why animals that are no threat to you should be killed.

As for food, I don't see where that comes from, because you weren't talking about either hunting for food (or eating farm raised animals). You were talking about wanting to kill every living thing that comes on your property. And that's plain sick.

And by the way, people who go out of their way to unnecessarily kill animals often have some disturbing psychological issues that may lead them to rationalize killing people.

eldragon
08-08-2005, 03:24 PM
If animals come on my property I either trap them and get ride of them or call animal control.


What kind of animals? Surely you have squirrels, birds and rabbits and rodents that do live on your property.

You don't own the sky ........can't birds fly there? You don't enjoy the song of a bird?

What about bugs? Certain bugs (mosquitos) would be carriers of disease, more than a squirrel.

Where do you live?

Roger J Carlson
08-08-2005, 04:20 PM
Slaves were kept as property. They were murdered, sold, raped, and used as you would an old mule or a piece of machinery. Many babies were taken from their mothers immediately after birth, to be handed over to a designated wetnurse, who cared for newborns. The child's birthday wasn't recorded, and the parents were often dispursed or sold so that no family could group together. All very true.

But let me ask this. Who is worse, the person who captures and sells another human into slavery or the person who buys the slave? Most people conveniently forget that the African people who became slaves were captured and sold by other Africans of conquering tribes.

This does not excuse the white men who bought slaves and therefore perpetuated the trade. It would have died out without them. But it does give lie to the general belief today that "the white man" perpetrated all these atrocities while all other peoples were peace loving. Evil is not the the purview of any single race.

Look the ethic cleansing in Rwanda. For all the abuses that European Colonialization was guilty of, it did suppress a lot of tribal warfare. Those rivalries have surfaced again over the last century with disasterous effects for that continent.

Does this mean that I think white-rule should be re-established? No! Every group has the right to self-determination. But I DO think we need to remember that "the white man" is not the only villian in the piece.

Roger J Carlson
08-08-2005, 04:30 PM
Society had to be forced to accept black people in the free world. This is an interesting statement. Who, exactly, forced society to accept black people? Do you think it was only blacks who accomplished this? There were an awful lot of white people (past and present) who worked for this too. If all white people had been universally against equal rights for blacks, then blacks would have had no chance.

I'm whole-heartedly in favor of equal rights for every person of every race. And I resent being grouped into a category ("the white man") who's ideology I do not support, simply because of the color of my skin.

eldragon
08-08-2005, 05:14 PM
But let me ask this. Who is worse, the person who captures and sells another human into slavery or the person who buys the slave? Most people conveniently forget that the African people who became slaves were captured and sold by other Africans of conquering tribes.


Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Slavery perpetuated from the early 1700's until 1865. It wasn't a one time deal.


If I go to a village and ply them with liquor, and coax them into selling me their land for $5 ..........it's MY fault. I'm to blame. I took advantage of the situation.

We are human beings, of the same flesh and blood, no matter what color we are. If a crooked agency sells me someone's baby, and I abuse it, it's my fault, not just the agency that sold the baby to me.

At what point would a person with any level of compassion, see that a slave is human, with feelings? What kind of monsters perpetuated slavery?

Does a law or amendment have to be passed by a higher order to stop malicious and cruel behavior?

How can any person whip another human, and honestly believe that they own them as property? How can you rape a woman, or imprison people .......just because your father or grandfather bought their father, grandfather, grandmother, etc.......for twenty bucks one hundred years ago?


To say slavery was disgusting is making it look good. To treat people as cargo, as property .......less valued than livestock .....is a disgrace.

"I can inflict anything on you. Do as I say, or I can kill you without penalty. I own you." Can anyone imagine having to be told that it's not the right thing to do?


Christ ...........every bit of it was wrong.

And, yes, there were people who helped blacks with struggles to become equal, but it was largely done by blacks themselves. The civil rights movement was originated by black people, and stands were made by black people who refused to accept the treatment any longer.

Someone posted earlier, saying I wasn't giving "poor black Sally" enough credit, and making her into a victim. Well, "poor black Sally" lived half her life before she was allowed to ride in the front half of the bus. And "poor black Sally" was not allowed to drink at the whites only water fountain, until she was 40 years old. And, "poor black Sally" never had any children, but if she had, she would have had them at home. Hospitals didn't deliver black children when she was child bearing age. "Poor black Sally" lived a segregrated life, not by choice, but by force. I give her credit for not being full of hate, but the credit is hers and hers only.

eldragon
08-08-2005, 05:16 PM
And I resent being grouped into a category ("the black man") who's ideology I do not support, simply because of the color of my skin.


That certainly goes both ways.

JustinoXXV
08-08-2005, 06:04 PM
All very true.

But let me ask this. Who is worse, the person who captures and sells another human into slavery or the person who buys the slave? Most people conveniently forget that the African people who became slaves were captured and sold by other Africans of conquering tribes.

This does not excuse the white men who bought slaves and therefore perpetuated the trade. It would have died out without them. But it does give lie to the general belief today that "the white man" perpetrated all these atrocities while all other peoples were peace loving. Evil is not the the purview of any single race.

Look the ethic cleansing in Rwanda. For all the abuses that European Colonialization was guilty of, it did suppress a lot of tribal warfare. Those rivalries have surfaced again over the last century with disasterous effects for that continent.



I don't think tribe is an accurate word. You have different nations in Africa which have always had different languages, religions, cultures. And yes, they warred with each other.

I could say the same for the Europeans, which regularly fought each other like cat and dogs until World War II. Though you have had wars more recently, like former Yugoslavia.

Yes, I do agree with you, no one race of people is more evil than others.

robeiae
08-08-2005, 06:11 PM
Does this mean that I think white-rule should be re-established? No! Every group has the right to self-determination. But I DO think we need to remember that "the white man" is not the only villian in the piece.
I categorically reject the idea of group self-determination, if you mean by this that an ethnic, racial, or simply geographic group has such a right. It's not a "right," it's a consequence of the application or potential application of force.

Now, if some number of individuals get together and all agree to form a "group," as it were, then undertake to create a system of laws and and authority for enforcing said laws, and they do so in way that allows all to particpate in the process, I'm all for it.

Rob :)

JustinoXXV
08-08-2005, 06:14 PM
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Slavery perpetuated from the early 1700's until 1865. It wasn't a one time deal.


If I go to a village and ply them with liquor, and coax them into selling me their land for $5 ..........it's MY fault. I'm to blame. I took advantage of the situation.

We are human beings, of the same flesh and blood, no matter what color we are. If a crooked agency sells me someone's baby, and I abuse it, it's my fault, not just the agency that sold the baby to me.


Wow. Black people are so dumb and weak willed that they can be coaxed given alcohol, and that makes them magically enslave each other or sell people to the Europeans.

That statement displays an extreme amount of ignorance.

No ethnic group in Africa ever enslaved it's own people or sold them. No village ever sold it's own.

However, an ethnic group very often would fight another ethnic group. They typically killed all adult males, and kept the women and children as slaves.

So when groups like the Fulani made their bid for power and took over a good portion of West Africa (creating an empire the size of the continental US), they were going to get rid of many of the defeated men anyway, by either killing them, or selling them to whatever buyers.

Oh, the Fulani are Muslim, so I seriously doubt the Europeans plied with alcohol. Instead, they plied them with money.

While slavery certainly existed in Africa before the Arabs and before the rise of Islam, it was the spread of Islam that played a large role in selling West Africans to Europeans (and to Arabs).

You can look on the BBC website and even read up on African slaves in India.

JustinoXXV
08-08-2005, 06:18 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1035389.stm

By the World Today's Andrew Whitehead


Long before the first slave ships started supplying labour to the cotton plantations of the American south, and many centuries before the first Africans were brought ashore to the sugar estates of Brazil and the Caribbean, Africans were being sold as slave-soldiers for India's princely states.

Their descendants are the least visible part of the huge African diaspora.

But today in India, almost lost among the mosaic of different cultures and communities in that country, are tens of thousands of people of African descent.

They are known as Sidis.

Slavery

Although they came at first as slaves, they were so successful as fighters that they at times usurped power from the rulers they were supposed to be serving.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1035000/images/_1035389_motherandchild150.jpg
Most have lost touch with their roots


Yet they are now struggling at the margins of Indian society.

"The Sidis are descendants of African slaves, sailors and servants, and merchants who remained in India after arriving through the sea trade with East Africa and the Gulf," says Amy Catlin of the University of California, who is making a special study of Sidi culture.

"That was a process which began in the 12th century or before, and lasted until the late 19th century".

Lost touch

Some Sidis are keenly aware of their past, and a few remain in touch with relatives in Africa.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1035000/images/_1035389_gir_forest_150.gif

But in the western Indian state of Gujarat - where most Sidis live - the community has lost touch with its roots.

The village of Jambur, deep in the Gir forest, is one of two exclusively Sidi settlements.

It is miserably poor.

The headman explains that yes, everyone in Jambur is a Sidi.

Their forbears came from Africa.

But they have lost any knowledge of African languages, and don't know where exactly their ancestors came from or why they settled in India.

Music and dance

The only remnant they retain of their African lineage is their music and dance.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1035000/images/_1035389_womenwithfish150.jpg
The Sidi community is very poor


This is what Professor Catlin, an ethno-musicologist, hopes to use to fill in the story of the Sidis.

"In Gujarat, affinities with African music include certain musical instruments and their names", she says, "and also the performance of an African-derived musical genre called "goma".

In the nearby town of Junagadh, a smaller group of Sidis lives alongside the shrine of Bava Gor, an ancient Sufi Muslim holyman who was himself of African descent.

Their hold on their African past is a little more secure.

They say they know a few songs in an African language, but not their meaning.

And their dance is more obviously African.

But again, their music, song and dance are the only links with their African past.

Amy Catlin believes that the Sidis of western India came from coastal and inland villages in east Africa which were raided by slave traders.

But that's far from certain.

Indeed, one legend has it that the Sidis of inland Gujarat originally came from Kano in northern Nigeria, and ended up in India after undertaking a Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca. Music may be the only key that can unlock their past.

robeiae
08-08-2005, 06:23 PM
Thanks, Justino. That is very interesting; I'm going to have to learn more about the Sidis.

Rob :)

sassandgroove
08-08-2005, 08:09 PM
Slaves were kept as property. They were murdered, sold, raped, and used as you would an old mule or a piece of machinery. Many babies were taken from their mothers immediately after birth, to be handed over to a designated wetnurse, who cared for newborns. The child's birthday wasn't recorded, and the parents were often dispursed or sold so that no family could group together.




"She [Maryís mistress] taught me to do all sorts of household work; to wash and bake, pick cotton and wool, and wash floors, and cook. After Hetty died [...] I had now to milk eleven cows every morning before sunrise, sitting among the damp weeds; to take care of the cattle as well as the children; and to do the work of the house. There was no end to my toils -- no end to my blows."





Although the labour women had to perform was arduous, they sometimes also had to undergo the degradation of becoming a concubine or common-law wife to a planter or other white master. As well, any children born to slave parents were immediately considered slaves themselves, who could be sold as property by the master in spite of the wishes of the parents.



Thomas Phillips, a slave-ship captain, wrote an account of his activities in A Journal of a Voyage (1746)

I have been informed that some commanders have cut off the legs or arms of the most willful slaves, to terrify the rest, for they believe that, if they lose a member, they cannot return home again.


Dr. Thomas Trotter, a physician working on the slave-ship, Brookes, was interviewed by a House of Commons (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Pcommons.htm) committee in 1790. This is how he replied when he was asked if the "slaves had room to turn themselves".

No. The slaves that are out of irons are locked "spoonways"" and locked to one another. It is the duty of the first mate to see them stowed in this manner every morning; those which do not get quickly into their places are compelled by the cat and, such was the situation when stowed in this manner, and when the ship had much motion at sea, they were often miserably bruised against the deck or against each other. I have seen their breasts heaving and observed them draw their breath, with all those laborious and anxious efforts for life which we observe in expiring animals subjected by experiment to bad air of various kinds.


Right - I have the same mindset as slaveholders.

I have been fascinated with this thread for days now. I talked about it with my husband over the weekend.

People pointed out to you, Eldragon, how your posts lumped all white people into one group, as evil. You respond by saying "Wait, but I am white, and my family is white..."

Then you bring up this. I fail to see how it is relevant. You are hiding behind what some people did in a different century instead of answering for yourself. Why do you hate yourself? Yes, we need to remember lest we repeat the past, but all these people in this thread were trying to say is don't lump people together. Yes, there are people who were white who did bad things, but there are people of every color, race, creed, origin who did bad things. Conversely, there are people of every color, race, creed, origin who have done good things, GREAT THINGS. Take a long hard look at yourself and ask why you refuse to see this. Why do you insist that being white makes you evil? Why do you carry guilt for things you never did? We need to look forward. It is our own actions that define us, not what our predessessors did.

JustinoXXV
08-08-2005, 08:58 PM
http://hispanicpundit.com/?p=973

This has an interesting article about racial violence between black and hispanic gangsters, and the bid for power between them and the hispanic gangster over who controled the streets of Los Angeles.

And while this is also an organized crime/drug issue, it is still racial violence and it involves racism.

And whites had nothing to do with it.

eldragon
08-08-2005, 09:03 PM
Yes, there are people who were white who did bad things, but there are people of every color, race, creed, origin who did bad things. Conversely, there are people of every color, race, creed, origin who have done good things, GREAT THINGS. Take a long hard look at yourself and ask why you refuse to see this. Why do you insist that being white makes you evil? Why do you carry guilt for things you never did? We need to look forward. It is our own actions that define us, not what our predessessors did.

I'm not evil. I don't feel guilty about anything. The whole discussion began like this when I said I despise the white man, for the way history (and sorry, but even current day events) has been played out, largely, if not mainly under his direction and influence.

eldragon
08-08-2005, 09:10 PM
Wow. Black people are so dumb and weak willed that they can be coaxed given alcohol, and that makes them magically enslave each other or sell people to the Europeans.




"From trading with the Africans, Europeans knew that slavery was used as a punishment in Africa. They began to ask for slaves, rather than African goods, in exchange for the guns and alcohol that the African chiefs wanted."


From History on the net.com.

sassandgroove
08-08-2005, 09:27 PM
I'm not evil. I don't feel guilty about anything. The whole discussion began like this when I said I despise the white man, for the way history (and sorry, but even current day events) has been played out, largely, if not mainly under his direction and influence.

I was merely responding to what you had said.


Justino, I never said Germany hasn't changed since WW2. I said, that WW2, which was only 60 years ago ........is still remembered whenever anyone talks about Germany. While there were German citizens who hid Jews in their homes at the risk of death, there were still others who turned in their neighbors to the gestapo.

And, Hitler didn't commit heinous acts by himself, he had alot of help. But, I won't even go there.

I am well aware that Germany today is a different place. I have been friends with several German immigrants, in fact, and they don't even talk about the war. It was such a horrible event, nobody wants to claim it.


Isn't the slogan for 9/11 ......Never Forget? At what point do we forget? Is it too soon to forget WW2 and everyone who was marched to their deaths for being different?

The hilarious thing about this thread, is that I have come across as someone who discriminates against others. That is completely false. I am against anyone who discriminates against others ......for being black .....for being Jewish, for being a woman...........for being gay.


And the white man has persecuted blacks, gays, Indians, Jews.......etc.....for centuries. But God forbid someone says it. Even if I am white, I am evil. Is the white man not evil for his deeds of hate?


Am I guilty for the sins of my forefathers? No, not really. But I can sit and listen to someone who is 85 years old and was persecuted for being black, and feel bad about it. Why? Because I was not discriminated for the color of my skin, and I had no say in the matter. I can feel the pain of someone who has been hurt. It's called compassion, and I refuse to apologize for having it.


I understand not wanting to get involved with someone being attacked, but it's a sad world we live in when nobody tries to help an old lady in a time of need. Unfortunately, its nothing new with mankind. We only get involved when it's safe. From far away.

What if someone had the chance to avoid a catastrophe, like 9/11, but didn't want to bother with getting involved, or risk being hurt? Magnify the old lady on the subway by several thousand, and its news. One person apparently isn't worth bothering with.

You still don't see that you are hiding behind what has happened in the past rather than acknowledging and answering what people have said and asked about the present and your thoughts.

One bad apple does not spoil the bunch when it comes to people. THere are good people and bad people, and color of skin has little to do with it. Just because there were opressed blacks or Indians doesn't make them inhereantly saints anymore than it makes white people inhereantly evil.

Roger J Carlson
08-08-2005, 09:39 PM
I'm not evil. I don't feel guilty about anything. The whole discussion began like this when I said I despise the white man, for the way history (and sorry, but even current day events) has been played out, largely, if not mainly under his direction and influence.I don't think that anyone here is arguing that white men have in the past (and continue in the present) done horrible things to people of other races.

However, the continuing argument, that you have consistantly failed to address, is:

1) You've lumped all white men into a group called "the white man", which I (and others) contend is itself a form of bigotry and sexism.

2) People of all races are culpable for crimes committed against other races and implying "the white man" is the primary culprit thoughout history is just untrue.

sassandgroove
08-08-2005, 10:07 PM
What Roger Said!

JustinoXXV
08-08-2005, 10:37 PM
"From trading with the Africans, Europeans knew that slavery was used as a punishment in Africa. They began to ask for slaves, rather than African goods, in exchange for the guns and alcohol that the African chiefs wanted."


From History on the net.com.




Yes, and reading that, there's still no evidence that the Europeans got any African drunk, or that anyone agreed to sell SLAVES simply because he or she was drunk.

Guns would offer a particular African nation the advantage in being able to fight wars with it's neighbors.

By the way, alcohol certainly was always in Africa. All you have to do is ferment something. The ethnic groups along the coastal areas have always made palm wine, while the ethnic groups further inland have always made alcohol out of sorgum or millet.

Slavery, by and large, was not used for PUNISHMENT in Africa. Not according to primary sources within Africa itself. Your problem is that you cannot see differences in Africans. You only see them as one big group.

Nation A would declare war on Nation B. The victors would enslave the losers, a process which has most recently occured in the Sudan. (until they got a cease fire in the civil war).

So yes, the above post makes sense when you realize what they really wanted was GUNS.

eldragon
08-08-2005, 10:53 PM
Slavery, by and large, was not used for PUNISHMENT in Africa. Not according to primary sources within Africa itself. Your problem is that you cannot see differences in Africans. You only see them as one big group. No - I'm not talking about the acts of Africans. I am referring to the people who enslaved them.

If you'd like, we can talk about Indians now.

sassandgroove
08-08-2005, 11:08 PM
No - I'm not talking about the acts of Africans. I am referring to the people who enslaved them.

If you'd like, we can talk about Indians now.
You are just not willing to see what these posts are trying to point out.

JustinoXXV
08-08-2005, 11:14 PM
You are just not willing to see what these posts are trying to point out.

Of course she isn't. She's race baiting, and we all knew that. However, in case some people fell for her misinformation, I posted historical accounts of other races besides white's enslaving people.

Kasey Mackenzie
08-09-2005, 12:22 AM
Well, let's not ignore the slave trade in Ancient Egypt, which predated the white European culture by many, many centuries. This doesn't excuse the slave trading that occurred in America, of course, but slavery has unfortunately existed since ancient times.

eldragon
08-09-2005, 04:54 AM
I posted historical accounts of other races besides white's enslaving people.

Wow - because others have done it .....it must be ok to do it, too.

I also posted references, and you ignore them.


Wow. Black people are so dumb and weak willed that they can be coaxed given alcohol, and that makes them magically enslave each other or sell people to the Europeans.





"From trading with the Africans, Europeans knew that slavery was used as a punishment in Africa. They began to ask for slaves, rather than African goods, in exchange for the guns and alcohol that the African chiefs wanted."


From History on the net.com.

Like this - for instance. And, you also said .............

That statement displays an extreme amount of ignorance.

No ethnic group in Africa ever enslaved it's own people or sold them. No village ever sold it's own.


And then of course, there was >>>>>>>>>>.



Yes, and reading that, there's still no evidence that the Europeans got any African drunk, or that anyone agreed to sell SLAVES simply because he or she was drunk.

Guns would offer a particular African nation the advantage in being able to fight wars with it's neighbors.


Ok, so History on the net.com shows an extreme amount of ignorance for suggesting that alcohol was traded for slaves.

There's no evidence of anyone drinking the alcohol .....you're correct. The website neglected to provide any video from 1750.

Hey, it's not hard to find people to agree that the white man is a great asset to the human race. Let's face it .....racism is alive and well in the US. Maybe you don't live in the south - and you don't see it like I do, but its' there.


Justino .....you live in a city that apparently hates each other no matter what color skin you have ............(see the post about how people don't bother helping others.....), and since you are black and perpetually stand up for the white man, perhaps you are suffering with a bit of same race "dislike."

Everyone keeps saying "You can't group us together by skin color! Can't you read that?" Yes .......and it's exactly what we did to blacks. We grouped them together by skin color. It didn't matter that they didnt' want to be grouped together .....or that they had no choice about it. We did and still do group them together by skin color.


Just say we don't. Just tell me .......white folks .....that you don't.

But there must be something wrong with me to want to put the white man down. That's just not done. NEVER.

William Haskins
08-09-2005, 07:10 AM
But there must be something wrong with me to want to put the white man down. That's just not done. NEVER.

of course it is. racism exists against every group, and it's not about institutional power, so save that lameass excuse.

in my estimation, there's something wrong with anyone who wants to put any group down as a homogenous, monolithic group without regard for the individual. it amazes me after all these posts that you're still not able to see the sickening irony of your position.

you're free, of course, to spew all the racist tripe you want. you're not exempt from being called on it in a public forum, however.

at the very least, i find this thread extraordinarily amusing.

JustinoXXV
08-09-2005, 02:31 PM
What do you mean by this?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

If you are talking about having some dislike about one's own racial group, there are some things I take issue with my brethren. I wish we would stop feeding into the media stereotype and stop allowing the media to continue to stereotype us. Not every black woman puts on the head shaking, eye rolling, hip waggling ensemble when she's angry. Not every black man wants to play pro ball and is only out to get pootang. Even though I know that we are living the consequences of decisions made generations ago, I wish we would not continue to live in the past and allow it to define and victimize us. I wish we would learn the value of wealth (not just being rich. There's a difference) and would build financial empires to pass from generation to generation. I wish we could go back to the village mentality and get away from this every man for himself thought process.

Do I hate my ethnic group? No. I love my kin. We have done much to be proud of and have contributed just as much to the building of this country as every other racial group here. Do I think we could improve? Yes.

~Kisha

The overall sentiment of your post is good, Kisha, but I still take issue with you on one thing. You used the word we too much.

You can't control how other black people behave. You can't control people's perceptions of blacks. You can control your own personal behavior, for which you and you alone are responsible. If someone white things that all black women twirl their heads or all black men play basketball, that's their problem, not mine. And you shouldn't make it your problem.

We will never go back to any village mentality, because that simply isn't going to happen in the modern world. And just because someone shares the same skin color as you doesn't make them your kin.

JustinoXXV
08-09-2005, 02:51 PM
Here's the danger of stereotyping people.

Cases like Howard Beach, Colin Ferugson, and a couple of recent cases in Brooklyn.

Colin Ferugson was a racist black men who opened fire on a bunch of white people on the Long Island Rail Road and killed them. This deranged madman did so because all white people were evil in his mind, and the white man (and woman) were enemies to him who should be killed.

There were two recent incidents in Howard Beach and South Brooklyn where Italian gangsters attacked blacks, robbed them, and severely beat them. While in the first case (Howard Beach) they justified in saying that the blacks must have been in their neighborhood to rob them, it turns out said Italian gangster also had a long criminal record.

A friend of mine said when was on the subway in Brooklyn, another madman who apparently had a gun raved about how he hated the evil white peole. When the train got off, someone ran and got the police. My friend just ran and got off the train.

Eldragon, in these cases, people got killed because someone refused to see people as human beings.

So if someone reads your posts on Absolute Write, and your posts encourages a borderline person (someone on the verge of snapping who believes all whites are evil) and that person commits murder, YOU will be RESPONSIBLE.

YOU are the ONE saying that whites are so evil. So if WHITES are so EVIL, shouldn't YOU, YOUR HUSBAND, and YOUR DAUGHTERS be shot by the likes of Colin Ferguson, the LIRR gunman.

And for everyone else, I don't condone or excuse racism. But I think this is really where Eldragon's comments are leading too.

eldragon
08-09-2005, 04:55 PM
So if someone reads your posts on Absolute Write, and your posts encourages a borderline person (someone on the verge of snapping who believes all whites are evil) and that person commits murder, YOU will be RESPONSIBLE.

YOU are the ONE saying that whites are so evil. So if WHITES are so EVIL, shouldn't YOU, YOUR HUSBAND, and YOUR DAUGHTERS be shot by the likes of Colin Ferguson, the LIRR gunman.

And for everyone else, I don't condone or excuse racism. But I think this is really where Eldragon's comments are leading too.

No, because I am against violence. That's what is wrong with the world as I see it.

I didn't create separatism. In fact, I wish everyone could see that we are one world, one people. Regardless of skin color, religion, or anything else, we all share the same world .......we all have blood racing through out bodies that we need to live.

The inability to see that we are all one people ....is what caused some to believe they are superior, simply because their skin is different. (or because they believe in a certain religion. etc.)


Judging people based on the color of their skin is as bad as judging someone based on their sexual preference, or religion.

I don't hate anybody. Absolutely not. I'm totally non-violent. But I believe that my own race has been the culprit for alot of oppression, and hate.


When I said I despise the white man, I should have been more specific. The profile I despise is the conservative, power hungry man - who is usually white. If you don't think he is white - what does he look like to you? He doesn't want equal rights for women, he is threatened by the black man. He is against a woman's right to choose (because he doesn't have the right to choose he wants to control our rights). He is against same sex marriage because he is uncomfortable with it. He has his religious beliefs .....and can brand anyone of any other faith - evil - if they do not believe exactly as he does. If you don't behave as he wishes ......he will enslave you, he will kill you.


Of course all white men do not fit the profile.



If you are a white man and believe that everyone has the right to believe in their own God and religion, and that everyone has the right to earn a decent living wage, and that everyone has the right to love whomever they choose, and that everyone has the right to stay on their own land (even if someone else wants it), and that everyone has the right to food and medical care .........and that all beings under the sun from animals to fleas have the right to be here, too .........then chances are - you are one of the good ones.


But if you believe that there is only 1 religion and it happens to be yours .......and that anything or anyone that gets in your way should be stopped .......you are a bad one.

There is so much hypocrisy out there. You can't preach from the bible as if you own it, and go kill people at the same time.

It's so easy to find others who hate gay people, who hate black people, who hate Jewish people, who hate Muslims, who hate cats. 'So, if I have to hate anyone .......I'll hate the hater.


In my world - hating someone equate to indifference.

JustinoXXV
08-09-2005, 05:21 PM
Then I guess I better give up this business of being a writer because that is the very essence of our craft. You are 100% correct that we cannot control what people think or feel...in theory. In the laboratory of the real world, however, it is all too easy to do so and the programming begins when we are children.



If you believe the story of Adam and Eve then actually we are all related, however, it was figure of speech not to be taken literally and the village mentality is absolutely neccessary if we are to acheive that conveted goal of world peace but that's neither here nor there in regards to this thread.


Thanks
~Kisha

We will never have world peace. As for Adam and Eve, well, look at Cain killing Able. Being family doesn't mean crap. And look at all the violence in the bible.

As for writing, you're too desperate to prove you're one of those good blacks, since it pains you so much that blacks are percieved a certain way (in part, you say, because of the behaviors of certain blacks).

However, I'm not the mother or the father of anyone. It really isn't my place or responsibility to tell a grown person that they shouldn't twirl their heads, put their hands on their hips, or play basketball. What other people do within the confines of the law is entirely up to them. No matter how much it embarrasses you.

JustinoXXV
08-09-2005, 05:28 PM
When I said I despise the white man, I should have been more specific. The profile I despise is the conservative, power hungry man - who is usually white. If you don't think he is white - what does he look like to you? He doesn't want equal rights for women, he is threatened by the black man. He is against a woman's right to choose (because he doesn't have the right to choose he wants to control our rights). He is against same sex marriage because he is uncomfortable with it. He has his religious beliefs .....and can brand anyone of any other faith - evil - if they do not believe exactly as he does. If you don't behave as he wishes ......he will enslave you, he will kill you.

Eldragon, again, in your race baiting, you totally ignore that there are conservative power hungry blacks, Asians, etc.

Do you still not understand that in most African nations, you will be signing your death warrant if you come out of the closet as gay? Ditto for most Asian nations. The US is far ahead of Africa and Asia when it comes to things like gay rights. There's no talk about gay marriages in Africa or Asia, because gays are trying to avoid being EXECUTED.

Huge portions of Asia and Africa don't allow abortions (certainly not those dominated by Muslim governments).

The average white person in the US is ahead of the average African and Asian when it comes to gay rights and human rights in general.

But I know you will refuse to see that all human beings are capable of the entire range of human behaviors, both positive and negative.

So go ahead, and continue to say all evil eminates from whites. Advocate the shooting of white men because of their evilness. Starting with your FATHER, your HUSBAND. And white women, along those lines, should FOLLOW, starting with you and your daughters.

You cannot declare that all hatred and oppression comes from whites and then when others point out the ultimate conclusion to this argument, then try and retract. If you're that inflexible in your views, you need to start with YOURSELF.

robeiae
08-09-2005, 06:22 PM
When I said I despise the white man, I should have been more specific. The profile I despise is the conservative, power hungry man - who is usually white. If you don't think he is white - what does he look like to you?
Since you asked:

To me, the power hungry person doesn't look like anything. But he or she acts in an indentifiable manner. Everything someone like this does is motivated by self-interest. Ideologies, while often used to defend actions, are just tools, as are religions, social classes, races, genders, and other means of seperating people into groups. Sometimes, a power hungry person might even espouse views wholly consistent with yours. Again, that is just a means to an end.

While you could certainly identify a number of such people who are male and white, there are others who are neither. In the U.S., the majority of successful power-grabbers are certainly white men, though I might argue with the "conservative" label. Worldwide, the majority is no doubt also masculine in terms of gender. But white? I think not.

Now the most successful people of such nature are dictators, politicians, and the like. But it does not follow that they are the only ones who seek power. Many people who present themselves as champions of "noble" causes are, in fact, nothing more than power-hungry cretins. The avenues to power in a nation with freedom are more plentiful than in a nation with little or none.

You wanted to talk about Indians. Let's.

Certainly, the history of U.S.-American Indian relations is predominantly one-sided and reflects an abuse of the power held by the federal government. There is no justification for most of the U.S.'s actions.

But what about the current situation? Do you think the past justifies Indian Tribes setting up casinos everywhere they can ('course, the ones doing it in Conneticut aren't even Indians, but that's a different story)? Clearly, the goal of a casino is to liquor people up and take their money, right? And Casinos don't discriminate, not even Indian-owned ones; they'll take anyone's money. Do you think the goal of the tribe's leadership is anything less than power (in the form of wealth)?

How about today's "champions" of Civil Rights, like Revs. Jackson and Sharpton? Are they seeking justice or personal power? The same holds true for other activists. Some are just not as good at it.

Rob :)

sellthepharm
08-09-2005, 08:37 PM
When I said I despise the white man, I should have been more specific. The profile I despise is the conservative, power hungry man - who is usually white. If you don't think he is white - what does he look like to you? He doesn't want equal rights for women, he is threatened by the black man. He is against a woman's right to choose (because he doesn't have the right to choose he wants to control our rights). He is against same sex marriage because he is uncomfortable with it. He has his religious beliefs .....and can brand anyone of any other faith - evil - if they do not believe exactly as he does. If you don't behave as he wishes ......he will enslave you, he will kill you.




Eldragon, I am almost speechless at this politically correct, cliched, blanket statement. I'm sorry to say this but this is nothing more than race-baiting tripe straight out of "Minister" Farrakhan's handbook. Do you truly believe this or are you just trying to get a rise out of your fellow posters?




If you are a white man and believe that everyone has the right to believe in their own God and religion, and that everyone has the right to earn a decent living wage, and that everyone has the right to love whomever they choose, and that everyone has the right to stay on their own land (even if someone else wants it), and that everyone has the right to food and medical care .........and that all beings under the sun from animals to fleas have the right to be here, too .........then chances are - you are one of the good ones.


It's good to know that, according to your incredibly narrow, racist opinion, I'm one of the "good ones". But there's something you should know.....



If you are a white man and believe that everyone has the right to believe in their own God and religion,


I agree wholeheartedly. Believe what you want. But don't be surprised when you ask me if I think all religions are equal and I tell you absolutely not. Don't call me a religious bigot when you ask me if I think everyone is going to Heaven and I tell you "no". I would never push my views on anyone but don't call me intolerant because my specific beliefs are not all-inclusive (I'm not saying you have, eldragon, in any way, shape, or form).



and that everyone has the right to earn a decent living wage


I believe everyone should have equal access to opportunity. I don't believe everyone should be granted a certain income, the ubiquitous "living wage".
Whether or not a person takes advantage of living in America is up to them. If they choose to sit on their duff, flunk out of high school, impregnate their girlfriends, and live in self-imposed squalor, that's certainly their right. But don't expect me to pay for it in the form of welfare assistance, food stamps, WIC, AFDC, Medicaid, etc. I, and millions of other like-minded Americans, are more than willing to assist children and those in special circumstances (disabled, sick, mentally ill, etc.) but don't expect me to subsidize others' lack of ambition and self-control.



and that everyone has the right to love whomever they choose

Be my guest. Go ahead. But don't call me a homophobic, intolerant bigot when I tell you that I don't find homosexual marriage acceptable.




and that everyone has the right to stay on their own land (even if someone else wants it),


No caveat here. Finally.


and that everyone has the right to food and medical care


The right to food and medical care? As far as medical care goes, I know for a fact that not one American citizen can be denied service at an emergency room facility. Not one. Are you saying everyone has the right to have their medical care paid for, a la nationalize healthcare? If so, I disagree.



and that all beings under the sun from animals to fleas have the right to be here,



Certainly. But fleas, ticks, roaches, ants, etc. don't have the right to be in my house and I have the right to have the exterminated, even if it's over the strident protestations of the animal-rights crowd.
As for animals...I love animals. I have quite a collection of them on the wall in my office.



It's so easy to find others who hate gay people, who hate black people, who hate Jewish people, who hate Muslims, who hate cats.


and white people?



Eldragon, it pains me to say this but I find your comments on this thread to be incredibly short-sighted and offensive. You certainly have the right to your beliefs and the right to share them in this forum but, after reading all the comments here, I think you are in the minority. Even as a self-despising white person.

JustinoXXV
08-09-2005, 10:26 PM
I believe everyone should have equal access to opportunity. I don't believe everyone should be granted a certain income, the ubiquitous "living wage".
Whether or not a person takes advantage of living in America is up to them. If they choose to sit on their duff, flunk out of high school, impregnate their girlfriends, and live in self-imposed squalor, that's certainly their right. But don't expect me to pay for it in the form of welfare assistance, food stamps, WIC, AFDC, Medicaid, etc. I, and millions of other like-minded Americans, are more than willing to assist children and those in special circumstances (disabled, sick, mentally ill, etc.) but don't expect me to subsidize others' lack of ambition and self-control.




You already do pay for it in the form of welfare assistance, foodstamps, WIC, AFDC, Medicaid. And through the Foster care system.

I do agree with you that it is up to the individual person to take advantage of the opportunities in this country.

However, if everyone who is on welfare decided to get off, would we really have enough jobs for them to get on?

1 out of 7 people in New York City, according to the Manhattan Institute, is on welfare. If the state of New York kicked them all off, they'd simply rob people. Therefore, for purposes of social stability, the US and other Western countries chose to give out welfare.

Countries like Brazil and Colombia, where there is no welfare, have substantially higher rates of crime. Anyone with money MUST live behind gates. Kidnappings are rather common. And ghettoes in those countries make our slums look like walks in the park.

Even when we have a pro business Republican President, and a Pro Business Republican Congress, there is isn't a serious attempt to eliminate welfare (the Congress won't even eliminate social security, which is a welfare program).

No one wants our cities to be reduced to Rio de Janiero, Sao Paulo, etc.

As people flunking out of high school, that isn't necessarily solely the child's fault. My 13 year old cousin will probably be one of those kids who flunks out of high school, considering his troubles with the law and his grades at school. His mom didn't really want him apparently, loss interest in taking care of him (even in feeding him at one point), and there's no one in our family who's going to take him. So before you condemn people on welfare, if you had my first cousin as a mother, would you have done any better? And she wasn't an illiterate person, she went back to school in her early 30s and got a BA. And she's working.

Oh, and a lot of adults who were high school drop outs and who got on welfare eventually got a GED and job training, and went back to work to become constructive criticism. Just because someone gets on welfare doesn't mean that will just sit back and have 30 children and be on it for the rest of their lives.

sellthepharm
08-09-2005, 11:22 PM
I should have been clearer, Justino.




Even when we have a pro business Republican President, and a Pro Business Republican Congress, there is isn't a serious attempt to eliminate welfare (the Congress won't even eliminate social security, which is a welfare program).



I have never advocated eliminating welfare. Americans are a compassionate people and an efficient welfare system is crucial for helping people who are down on their luck or unable to care for themselves or their children. As a matter of fact, my parents were on food stamps for a short while after I was born.
I have no problem helping people. My problem lies with those who abuse the welfare system and make it a way of life, that's all.



You already do pay for it in the form of welfare assistance, foodstamps, WIC, AFDC, Medicaid. And through the Foster care system.



I'm well aware of that fact and happy to do so for those truly in need.


Countries like Brazil and Colombia, where there is no welfare, have substantially higher rates of crime. Anyone with money MUST live behind gates. Kidnappings are rather common. And ghettoes in those countries make our slums look like walks in the park.


I understand the point you're trying to make Justino but this is not Brazil or Colombia. Opportunity abounds in America for those who will go out and take advantage of it. I realize not everyone possesses the desire or drive to strike out and realize their potential but I don't consider that an excuse to rely on welfare for a living.


So before you condemn people on welfare, if you had my first cousin as a mother, would you have done any better? And she wasn't an illiterate person, she went back to school in her early 30s and got a BA. And she's working.


First let me say that I apologize if my comments gave the impression that I condemn people of welfare. I do not. What I DO condemn is those on welfare who abuse the system, who go out of their way to perpetrate fraud on a system set up to help people. I find that reprehensible.

Welfare, IMHO, should be a stop-gap, a temporary solution for those who are going through a rough patch in their lives, be it an unexpected pregnancy, job lay-offs, problems with drugs, alcohol - you name it. But welfare was never intended to be a life-long means of support, except in special circumstances.
To me, telling someone they should rely on welfare for a living is a terrible sentence to pass and is the opposite of compassion.


Oh, and a lot of adults who were high school drop outs and who got on welfare eventually got a GED and job training, and went back to work to become constructive criticism. Just because someone gets on welfare doesn't mean that will just sit back and have 30 children and be on it for the rest of their lives.

I never said they would.

I applaud those you mentioned above, high school dropouts who got on welfare but then got their GED and job training and then went to work. I consider that a textbook example of what the welfare system was designed to do.
Again, my problem with the welfare system is the rampant abuse and fraud.

JustinoXXV
08-10-2005, 12:13 AM
I applaud those you mentioned above, high school dropouts who got on welfare but then got their GED and job training and then went to work. I consider that a textbook example of what the welfare system was designed to do.
Again, my problem with the welfare system is the rampant abuse and fraud.

As for examples of the rampant abuse and fraud, the New York Times did an investigation into the medicaid claims in NY state and found that 40% were fraudlent. One woman claimed that she had lost all this weight due to Aids, and that she needed certain protein, vitamin, and mineral supplements, along with certain hormones. So she gets medicaid and buys the stuff. And she sells it on the black market for a lot of money. Oh, she had never lost weight. Indeed, she was FAT. She had a doctor lie and say that she had Aids and was too sick to work just so she could get on various welfare programs.

A guy I knew turned a lady in. She was on welfare and section 8. Yet she rented out the rooms in her apartment for quite a bit of money (for a lot more than what welfare was paying her, so she profited).

jackie106
08-10-2005, 12:20 AM
As for examples of the rampant abuse and fraud, the New York Times did an investigation into the medicaid claims in NY state and found that 40% were fraudlent.


I know I woman who works for the Social Security Administration. She said that they receive tons of ridiculous claims from people who want to go on disability. There are people who claim that they can't work because of ingrown toenails!

Jackie

astonwest
08-10-2005, 01:11 AM
This thread is enough to make one's head spin...

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=288449&postcount=134

eldragon
08-10-2005, 02:05 AM
The right to food and medical care? As far as medical care goes, I know for a fact that not one American citizen can be denied service at an emergency room facility. Not one. Are you saying everyone has the right to have their medical care paid for, a la nationalize healthcare? If so, I disagree.


Emergency rooms will help in the case of emergencies. But what about non-emergencies? If someone just happens to work a job that doesn't offer employee health insurance and finds a lump in their ________, they can't just go to an emergency room and get it cut out.

How many people are working full time but don't have health insurance? Millions?

Having a baby isn't an emergency, are you suggesting women without insurance or money to pay for prenatal care should be denied?

And as far as a living wage, I said "wage" because it would be paid to workers who "worked." I do not think the min wage, which is something like $5-$6 an hour, is realistic.

At $6 an hour - that's $240 gross per week. Take away your taxes and what have you got?
It's ok for a kid who lives with Mom and Dad ......but if we want "people on welfare" to work for it .......how can they? Who will watch their kids for free so they can bring that big, fat check home?

I don't condone people living on welfare their whole lives, either, in fact I have never known anyone on welfare personally. I have no idea how it works.


Sellthepharm said :

Eldragon, it pains me to say this but I find your comments on this thread to be incredibly short-sighted and offensive. You certainly have the right to your beliefs and the right to share them in this forum but, after reading all the comments here, I think you are in the minority. Even as a self-despising white person.

Of course I am in the minority. And I don't despise myself at all. I'm a fabulous person. I like myself alot - and so do lots of other people.


BTW ............... those of you who are bothered by people on welfare .......you would be seething if you knew how many people live on disability. The nursing home I volunteer at - most of the residents bills are paid by disability and / or medicaid or medicare. That's about 300 people in one nursing home in one small ........small town. It's not even the only nursing home in this town. There are young people living there for gunshot wounds, many self inflicted. People are there for diseases like MS, cancer, AIDS and pretty much anything else you can think of. Every patient is on medication ........many take over 20 meds per day. All their tests (MRI's.... you name it) are paid for. Transportation is paid for. Food, their room, everything .....paid for. Then, they get $30 cash every month. The nursing home takes the rest of the check. (that's medicaid or disability - the medicare gives the patient $40 cash.)

So, if you are bothered by people sitting at home on welfare .......you should really be crazy over all the people in nursing homes being paid by the system. Oh ....and LOTS of them are in a vegetative state.


So - what to do - what to do?

sellthepharm
08-10-2005, 02:43 AM
Emergency rooms will help in the case of emergencies. But what about non-emergencies? If someone just happens to work a job that doesn't offer employee health insurance and finds a lump in their ________, they can't just go to an emergency room and get it cut out.

How many people are working full time but don't have health insurance? Millions?

Having a baby isn't an emergency, are you suggesting women without insurance or money to pay for prenatal care should be denied?




Of course not. In many, if not most, of these cases there are several different avenues available, the majority through some type of government assistance such as Medicaid. There are also many different private organizations that offer medical care for free, such as the Shriners Hospitals and many others.
I see people accessing these services every day, eldragon, in office after office. I'm not saying the system is perfect but help is available.


It's ok for a kid who lives with Mom and Dad ......but if we want "people on welfare" to work for it .......how can they? Who will watch their kids for free so they can bring that big, fat check home?


Who ever said it was easy? This may sound insensitive but the decisions a person makes early on in life will have consequences later on down the road. A single mother with three or four kids, who never finished high school, who may have a regular habit of some sort, will certainly have a difficult time rising above the obstacles placed in her path, regardless of her race. But if she's willing to make the effort, I'm willing to render assistance. And I don't think I'm the only one who shares that sentiment.



BTW ............... those of you who are bothered by people on welfare .......you would be seething if you knew how many people live on disability. The nursing home I volunteer at - most of the residents bills are paid by disability and / or medicaid or medicare. That's about 300 people in one nursing home in one small ........small town. It's not even the only nursing home in this town. There are young people living there for gunshot wounds, many self inflicted. People are there for diseases like MS, cancer, AIDS and pretty much anything else you can think of. Every patient is on medication ........many take over 20 meds per day. All their tests (MRI's.... you name it) are paid for. Transportation is paid for. Food, their room, everything .....paid for. Then, they get $30 cash every month. The nursing home takes the rest of the check. (that's medicaid or disability - the medicare gives the patient $40 cash.)

So, if you are bothered by people sitting at home on welfare .......you should really be crazy over all the people in nursing homes being paid by the system. Oh ....and LOTS of them are in a vegetative state.


I can only answer this with a quote from my earlier post:


I, and millions of other like-minded Americans, are more than willing to assist children and those in special circumstances (disabled, sick, mentally ill, etc.) but don't expect me to subsidize others' lack of ambition and self-control.

JustinoXXV
08-10-2005, 03:03 AM
Who ever said it was easy? This may sound insensitive but the decisions a person makes early on in life will have consequences later on down the road. A single mother with three or four kids, who never finished high school, who may have a regular habit of some sort, will certainly have a difficult time rising above the obstacles placed in her path, regardless of her race. But if she's willing to make the effort, I'm willing to render assistance. And I don't think I'm the only one who shares that sentiment.




Not every woman is single because she got humped and dumped in high school. Maybe she was married and widowed. Maybe her husband dumped her. Maybe she had an abusive husband she had to flee.

When someone is in a low point, it isn't necessarily because they did anything bad per say. Someone could have gotten laid off. Someone could have worked for an employer like Enron that dissolved and not only loss their job, but their entire life savings/retirement fund.

Are you going to say that people who worked twenty years for a shitty employer made the wrong decisions as well (accepted the offer of employment from the wrong person)?

The problem with people when they get in a full right wing or left wing mode is that people get so caught up in cariactures (in this case the welfare queen who breeds for more benefits and drives a cadillac) that their thoughts are often motivated by hate.

With that said, in general life is easy and none of us have magic solutions to the world's problems. I'm just objecting to your villifying poor people.

Not all of them made the wrong choices. And even if they did make wrong choices, well, if there's no one around to teach you the right choices, how do you know what choice to make?

sellthepharm
08-10-2005, 04:08 AM
I'm just objecting to your villifying poor people.


Justino, I went back over my posts and I can't find any instance where I came anywhere near vilifying poor people. None.
I object to people defrauding the welfare system, one that was set in place to aid those in need, and this fraud comes from both the rich (opportunistic insurance companies and, yes, even some pharmaceutical companies) and the poor and I am equally disgusted with both.
Please don't try to read between the lines in my posts. There's nothing there.


Not every woman is single because she got humped and dumped in high school. Maybe she was married and widowed. Maybe her husband dumped her. Maybe she had an abusive husband she had to flee.


My above example was only that - an example. I could have used any of your cited instances instead.




When someone is in a low point, it isn't necessarily because they did anything bad per say. Someone could have gotten laid off. Someone could have worked for an employer like Enron that dissolved and not only loss their job, but their entire life savings/retirement fund.

Are you going to say that people who worked twenty years for a shitty employer made the wrong decisions as well (accepted the offer of employment from the wrong person)?



I've quoted myself twice in the same thread with this:



I, and millions of other like-minded Americans, are more than willing to assist children and those in special circumstances (disabled, sick, mentally ill, etc.) but don't expect me to subsidize others' lack of ambition and self-control.



By "special circumstances" I could have added being laid-off or any number of other occurrences. That's what the welfare system is for - to give those who are in need a helping hand and I fully support such a system.



The problem with people when they get in a full right wing or left wing mode is that people get so caught up in cariactures (in this case the welfare queen who breeds for more benefits and drives a cadillac) that their thoughts are often motivated by hate.



Justino, I'm not in any mode, right or left. I also don't deal in blanket statements or cliched stereotypes. And my thoughts are motivated by a serious discussion of the issue at hand. In this case, the issue just happened to be the perceived role of the welfare system at large and my opinion on the matter. Nothing more. Your speculation that my thoughts are often motivated by hate is out of line, not to mention dead wrong.

JustinoXXV
08-10-2005, 04:48 AM
Justino, I'm not in any mode, right or left. I also don't deal in blanket statements or cliched stereotypes. And my thoughts are motivated by a serious discussion of the issue at hand. In this case, the issue just happened to be the perceived role of the welfare system at large and my opinion on the matter. Nothing more. Your speculation that my thoughts are often motivated by hate is out of line, not to mention dead wrong.

Then if you aren't, welfare should be based on the applicant's need. Not on the applicant's history (whether he or she went to high school or not or got knocked up at an early age or not is irrelevant). Social workers aren't supposed to make those kinds of judgements on people. They assess their current needs and point them towards the best resources.

Likewise, saying that everyone who works minimum wage jobs or who has no money as an adult made wrong decisions is likewise a little off base. There are people who officially made the right decisions (at ending up working for crappy employers who spent oe otherwise defrauded employees out of their life savings).

I just think you were a little too judgemental.

sellthepharm
08-10-2005, 05:23 AM
Then if you aren't, welfare should be based on the applicant's need. Not on the applicant's history (whether he or she went to high school or not or got knocked up at an early age or not is irrelevant).



But it is relevant. I'm not saying every person who didn't finish high school or gets pregnant at an early age ends up on welfare. Far from it. All I'm saying is that these particular circumstances (and a host of others) can present serious stumbling-blocks to those who want to go further in life, i.e college, higher earning potential, etc. It doesn't make them bad people, but it does put considerable obstacles in their path.



Likewise, saying that everyone who works minimum wage jobs or who has no money as an adult made wrong decisions is likewise a little off base. There are people who officially made the right decisions (at ending up working for crappy employers who spent oe otherwise defrauded employees out of their life savings).



I've never said that everyone who works minimum wage jobs or has no money as an adult made wrong decisions.
What I said was that decisions made early in life can have serious consequences later. If this comment came across as judgmental it was purely unintentional.

sellthepharm
08-10-2005, 05:23 AM
Wheeee. Isn't this fun?

William Haskins
08-10-2005, 05:31 AM
Wheeee. Isn't this fun?

like masturbating with a cheese grater...

JustinoXXV
08-10-2005, 06:27 AM
But it is relevant. I'm not saying every person who didn't finish high school or gets pregnant at an early age ends up on welfare. Far from it. All I'm saying is that these particular circumstances (and a host of others) can present serious stumbling-blocks to those who want to go further in life, i.e college, higher earning potential, etc. It doesn't make them bad people, but it does put considerable obstacles in their path.



I've never said that everyone who works minimum wage jobs or has no money as an adult made wrong decisions.
What I said was that decisions made early in life can have serious consequences later. If this comment came across as judgmental it was purely unintentional.

Okay, I understand and agree with your point here.

Tirjasdyn
08-10-2005, 08:37 AM
And people carry the flu, colds, chicken pox, herpes, aids, hepatitis, and a whole host of other diseases.

Your chances of getting a lethal disease from a bird or a small animal are next to nothing. Now if your husband (or wife) does something behind your back with the wrong person, you can die a slow, lingering death (Aids).

Been there done that bought the t-shirt. And gives me more of a reason to shoot men. Aid isn't the only one that can give you a long painful death. thanks.

What is your point? That humans are much more violent. Sure I agree.



And I don't think there are any verifiable incidents of birds carrying the plague. Rodents can have it, yes. However, even in large cities (which have the highest populations of rats due to plenty of food and lack of mammalian predators), you still don't have cases of people dying from the plague. There are plenty of Aids deaths though.

Anything that carries bugs. Most of the clinical information claims owls carry it. Rats are only one type of rodent...here we worry more about squirrels and prarie dogs. In general it is usually prarie dogs. In fact we are currently having a fairly large breakout north of Boulder. Really wants to make you pet them huh?



So should we shoot people because we can get diseases from them and because they are far more likely to infect us than a bird or squirrel with something fatal? I'll also ad that severe flu cases, especially for the elderly, can be fatal (to the point where we've had more flu deaths some years than aids).


My answer only two years ago: Yes. But I've mostly dealt with that so no. Ask me again next year: Still got two more tests before before I find out if they have to start hacking me up to keep me alive. I'm might change my answer. Of course my daughter and I suffered through pnemonia from the same neglectful ex, so maybe if just shoot those that spread stuff knowningly. I'd be for that, but then I am for capitol punishment for criminals.




So no, you haven't given any good reason for why animals that are no threat to you should be killed.

As for food, I don't see where that comes from, because you weren't talking about either hunting for food (or eating farm raised animals). You were talking about wanting to kill every living thing that comes on your property. And that's plain sick.


I actually said I traped and relocated. As for where that comes from...you wanted more reasons. I wasn't talking about a farm. I do kill every ant, spider and fly I see. I tend to let my dog and cats live. They are a little fat. I take everything else out to the pound or call animal control. If deer, elk, mtn lions or bears ever get out this far we've got a lot more problems than them...half the US would be looking for it's water.




And by the way, people who go out of their way to unnecessarily kill animals often have some disturbing psychological issues that may lead them to rationalize killing people.

You made quite the assumption there. And people tend to blame things on others that they themselves are guilty of. See I can play that game too. But you'd be a fool to think it meant anything towards you.

Tirjasdyn
08-10-2005, 08:43 AM
What kind of animals? Surely you have squirrels, birds and rabbits and rodents that do live on your property.

You don't own the sky ........can't birds fly there? You don't enjoy the song of a bird?

What about bugs? Certain bugs (mosquitos) would be carriers of disease, more than a squirrel.

Where do you live?

Colorado. Actually I worry about mosquitos more than anything else. As a rule we don't leave standing water around and I have to (or be fined) clear out drainages alot. I live in the eastern plains, not many trees at all, all we have are piegons which tend to **** on everything and put holes in your houses. Which don't want if you want to afford heat in the winter. I have yet to see any squirrels, rabbits or other rodents (mice/prarie dogs) out here. I live in newer low income so they'll come back eventually. Houses are too close together for rabbits, no trees for squirrels to hide in.

So I guess the answer would be no.

Tirjasdyn
08-10-2005, 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by eldragon
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Slavery perpetuated from the early 1700's until 1865. It wasn't a one time deal.


Wow that left out about serval thousands of years of slavery huh. Talk about tunnel vision. What about indentured servants (usually white)? Some where never allowed to 'buy themselves out'.

Or African's enslaving of other african's?

I don't hear semetic peoples still harping about ethopian oppression last I checked. Most Jews I know aren't still harping about Hitler and requiring retribution (perhaps I should except Israel here) I'm sorry but get up, get out and do somthing about it. We don't have to appoligized for the entire world and they don't have to sit down and cry about it.

They never did and most did not. The options are there now, there are just too many entitlement issues. I'm sorry that Miss Sally or Rosie or any of them took such a beating for 200 years of this countries history. I'm sorry that there are those still to afraid to stand up for the rights they won, and I'm extremely sorry that there are those of any race who feel the world owes them **** cause something happened to a family member 50 years ago. Hell my family got kicked out of scotland hundreds of years ago. I bet if I showed up there now with an etitlement issue they'd just shoot me.

I mean really..how many people would take me seriously if I appoligized to every Chicago citizen that is still alive from the Al Capone era.

"I'm sorry, my great uncle might have sold old Al's insurance to you. Sorry for the broken legs et all but may be I can pay you back."

I mean really, do you still boycott cotton? Ya know one of those cash crops which requireed the massive labor that only the slave trade could provide and kept it going in the US 150 years after it stopped in Europe?

Tirjasdyn
08-10-2005, 09:22 AM
Then if you aren't, welfare should be based on the applicant's need. Not on the applicant's history (whether he or she went to high school or not or got knocked up at an early age or not is irrelevant). Social workers aren't supposed to make those kinds of judgements on people. They assess their current needs and point them towards the best resources.


Have either of you ever applied for welfare? It was extremely hard. In the end I was denied because I had a college degree despite the fact my $700 stipend was only enought to pay the mortgage not feed my daughter, or anything else. Do you know how hard it is when you are forced to bring your daughter on job interviews because there is no one to watch her at all?

I'm sorry, I know niether of you are against helping the down trodden. Some of the clinicalness of this discussion and it's many facets is starting to get to me.

Fractured_Chaos
08-10-2005, 08:49 PM
Of course not. In many, if not most, of these cases there are several different avenues available, the majority through some type of government assistance such as Medicaid.

More often than not, adults are denied medicaid, unless they have jumped through a gazillion hoops to prove a disability.


There are also many different private organizations that offer medical care for free, such as the Shriners Hospitals and many others.

Shriner's takes care of children. And where are these supposed places an -adult- can get medical care for free or low cost? In the bigger cities? What about mid-sized cities? I can assure you there is nothing like that here.

And what about small towns? How easy do you think it'll be for someone to drive 50-100 miles to get to a clinic for routine medical care?

Why should -adults- be denied basic medical care? Dosn't anyone realize that making sure adults are healthy will mean adults who can work?

Sure, let them go to the emergency room, they -have- to care for you there, right?

You do realize that an emergency room visit costs about $500, while a regular Dr's visit is about $125? But at the Drs office, you have to pay that up front. People who can't afford that, and have little or no insurance end up going to the emergency room, and get billed $500. If they can't come up with $125, what makes you think they'll be able to come up with $500? So what happens? They don't pay, it goes to collections, who only pays $.25 on the dollar, and now the hospital has to recoup that cost. Guess how they're going to do that? Raising prices on treatment.


I see people accessing these services every day, eldragon, in office after office. I'm not saying the system is perfect but help is available.

To a few. Not to everyone who needs it.


Who ever said it was easy? This may sound insensitive but the decisions a person makes early on in life will have consequences later on down the road. A single mother with three or four kids, who never finished high school, who may have a regular habit of some sort, will certainly have a difficult time rising above the obstacles placed in her path, regardless of her race. But if she's willing to make the effort, I'm willing to render assistance. And I don't think I'm the only one who shares that sentiment.

And what you are forgetting is that many times just plain bad luck happens. No decision on the part of one of my friend caused her husband to die, and leave her a pregnant widow. No decision on HER part made her destitute when that happened. No decision on her part caused her to have a heart attack, and continuing heart problems from that point on.

And how easy do you think it is to get a new job, when you already spent many thousands of dollars on college, and built up an incredible list of skills for that particular career, only to have it outsourced? Do you think someone can "just go back to school, and learn a new skill?" Not everyone is qualified for grants, and loans have to be paid back. And there's no guarantee that today's Hot Market is going to be tomorrow's career.

Keep in mind, this person also has to work while getting an education. Who's minding the children if both parents are doing this, or if it's a single parent home? Because, guess what? Welfare will cut you OFF, if you try to continue your education.

Do you think living on minimum wage is possible, even if difficult? Have you -seen- what kind of place people are able to live in on minimum wage? Would you let your worst enemy live in a place that should, by all rights, be condemned? Doesn't a person working minimum wage deserve a safe place to live, where the plumbing, electrical, and heating works?

What if the town you live in had the last of the good paying companies bought out by a multinational corproation, and moved out? And now all that's left is minimum wage jobs, yet the cost of living hasn't dropped to accomodate this. Was it their choice for living there and working for that company? Do you think people can afford to just up and move because of that? Gotta news flash for you...having your entire world turned on it's ear tends to make people broke. When that happens, you can't just scrape up a few thousand dollars to pack up and move the whole family.

Should we all have crystal balls so we can make the right decisions?

Fractured_Chaos
08-10-2005, 08:51 PM
Not every woman is single because she got humped and dumped in high school. Maybe she was married and widowed. Maybe her husband dumped her. Maybe she had an abusive husband she had to flee.

When someone is in a low point, it isn't necessarily because they did anything bad per say. Someone could have gotten laid off. Someone could have worked for an employer like Enron that dissolved and not only loss their job, but their entire life savings/retirement fund.

Are you going to say that people who worked twenty years for a shitty employer made the wrong decisions as well (accepted the offer of employment from the wrong person)?

The problem with people when they get in a full right wing or left wing mode is that people get so caught up in cariactures (in this case the welfare queen who breeds for more benefits and drives a cadillac) that their thoughts are often motivated by hate.

With that said, in general life is easy and none of us have magic solutions to the world's problems. I'm just objecting to your villifying poor people.

Not all of them made the wrong choices. And even if they did make wrong choices, well, if there's no one around to teach you the right choices, how do you know what choice to make?

Careful there, Justino...You sound like you're getting corrupted by all these evil liberals on this board! :ROFL:

Carole
08-10-2005, 09:32 PM
"It's not healthy for America, it doesn't fit what we stand for." - Gerald Allen

O-M-G! Who is he? I think I am going to be sick!

"After criticism, he narrowed his bill to exempt the classics"

What??

Well, it's a really good thing that all classic books have been written, and there are none which exist or could exist that could fit into that category some day. Whew! That one had me worried for a minute!

How sad. How dreadfully sad. Hey...anyone wanna move to Alabama?

eldragon
08-10-2005, 09:32 PM
They are far and few between, but there is a doctor here in my small town that understands how hard it is to get medical care when you don't have insurance.

His office takes $40 ......cash for the visit. They do not accept insurance of any kind.

We have insurance, but I have gone to him on occasion. What he is doing is so cutting edge .....& wonderful .....that I like to support it.


In fact, he is so rare, there was some kind of National news story about his practice, but it was about 3 years ago.........

Here's another thing .......we do have insurance, like I said. In July, my daughter was riding bikes with her dad and fell down on the pavement - causing a road burn - very badly on her leg.

I took her to an urgent care center - who cleaned it, wrapped it and prescribed a topical medicine. He then referred us to wound care, in the burn center of the hospital.

I took her to this wound care for 3 weeks ..........where they changed her bandages and scraped off skin when necessary ........used my prescription - and the visits never took more than 10 minutes. There were a few days, when a hurricane was headed this way, that they sent the supplies home with me ............and I did it.

Imagine my surprise when I get the hospital bill .......$2500. She never saw a doctor .....never required any prescriptions because we provided it. All it was .........bandages ....gauze ..........cleaning non-medicinal fluid.

So I ask you ..........if a kid without insurance fell on their bike ........could they afford this kind of care? My daughter will always have a horrendous scar. I think the cost is ridiculous. Just outrageous.

Makes me wonder what kind of kick-back the doctor who referred me to the wound care center - must be getting. At first, he told me "Just keep it clean."

eldragon
08-10-2005, 09:34 PM
Well, it's a really good thing that all classic books have been written, and there are none which exist or could exist that could fit into that category some day. Whew! That one had me worried for a minute!

Excellent point.

Carole
08-10-2005, 09:50 PM
Imagine my surprise when I get the hospital bill .......$2500. She never saw a doctor .....never required any prescriptions because we provided it. All it was .........bandages ....gauze ..........cleaning non-medicinal fluid.

I can relate. Years ago when my husband was working a job which did not offer insurance, had a kidney stone attack. His symptoms were so severe that I took him to the emergency room. He was placed in one of those little curtained ER cubicles and there he laid for several hours. The doctor saw him exactly once, and a nurse gave him a shot of some sort for pain. That was the extent of his care.

When our bill arrived, it was for the amount of $2,800!!! I'd like to know what was in that shot!

Another example is the different way ONE hospital handled the birth of both my children. With my first son, we had "good insurance" and the bill we received for OUR portion was just shy of $8,000!!!!! This was an uncomplicated birth with no unusual circumstances (other than the bill, of course) After having an attorney look over the bill, he spotted several billing errors and blatant charges for care neither I nor my son even received.

By the time I had my second son, my then-husband had joined the Navy. I had this baby at the same hospital (we happened to be back *home* on emergency leave when he was born) and with the same doctor. The bill we received was for the amount of ZERO, thank you! Apparently this hospital was bound by the military's guidelines...if they accept the military's insurance, they are not allowed to bill for more than the allowed amount.

William Haskins
08-10-2005, 09:55 PM
the bottom line is that this misguided lawmaker's attempts to suppress or ban literature has been met with indifference and ridicule. and rightly so.

i see it as no reason to disparage the state of alabama or its people, as there has been no groundswell of support for his silly idea.

JustinoXXV
08-10-2005, 10:36 PM
They are far and few between, but there is a doctor here in my small town that understands how hard it is to get medical care when you don't have insurance.

His office takes $40 ......cash for the visit. They do not accept insurance of any kind.



Believe it or not, I know a doctor like this in NYC. She charges $50 per visit. She takes cash and insurance (and medicaid). She does her best to hook up with medicine from the free samples doctors get. She's an older lady whose been practicing for decades.

I had hurt my foot. Then I had to work that day and the streets were totally flooded. It stepped in disgusting back up street sewer water and my hurt toe got infected. (though I went to the ER room later on) After they saw me, I was referred to the wound clinic for further treatment. I was prescribed antibiotics, which would have cost me $210. I didn't bother to buy them, because I figured that I could just pay doctor $50 and have her hook me up with meds. And she did.:)

Roger J Carlson
08-10-2005, 11:07 PM
the bottom line is that this misguided lawmaker's attempts to suppress or ban literature has been met with indifference and ridicule. and rightly so.

i see it as no reason to disparage the state of alabama or its people, as there has been no groundswell of support for his silly idea.What in the world are you talking about? What do you think this is? A thread about an Alabama bill targeting gay authors? Sheesh!

William Haskins
08-10-2005, 11:25 PM
sorry.

kill whitey?

Roger J Carlson
08-10-2005, 11:31 PM
sorry.

kill whitey?<u rsfd jityd (my head hurts)

astonwest
08-11-2005, 12:53 AM
What in the world are you talking about? What do you think this is? A thread about an Alabama bill targeting gay authors? Sheesh!

Indeed...what would this place be if we kept on topic? Next thing you know, people would be using all kinds of logical arguments...

The next step after that would be total and complete anarchy...
;)

sellthepharm
08-11-2005, 02:56 AM
Shriner's takes care of children.

So that means they don't count? Come on.


More often than not, adults are denied medicaid, unless they have jumped through a gazillion hoops to prove a disability.


Nonsense. Here is just a portion of the eligibility requirements and benefits available in my state. This doesn't even begin to list the other aid agencies available.

Basic eligibility requirements for Medicaid are as follows:



1. Categorical



a. Aged (Age 65 or over)



b. Blind (Visual Acuity of 20/200 or less or limited visual field of 20 degrees or less, even with correction)



c. Disabled (Unable to engage in substantial work activity for at least 12 months or a condition resulting in death)



d. AFDC (deprivation of parental care and support)



e. U-18 (under 18 years of age)



f. Refugee Status



g. Pregnant Women



h. Newborn Infants



i. ARKids First (children under 19 years of age)



2. Citizenship or Alienage - It must be verified that the individual or family is one of the following:



a. Citizen of the United States



b. Qualified alien



c. Non-qualified alien in need of emergency services only



3. Income - The individual's or family's income after deduction of allowable exclusions cannot exceed the income standard of the applicable category.



4. Resources - The individual's or family's resources cannot exceed the resource limit of the applicable category.



5. Social Security Enumeration



6. Assignment of Third Party Liability Benefits



7. Cooperation with Child Support Enforcement when there is an absent parent.


Drgnlvr, I realize not everyone is going to be eligible for Medicaid. Some people are above the income requirements or fail to meet some other requirement. But the above requirements meet the needs of many, many people. More than you realize. As a pharmaceutical rep I call on offices every day that see nothing but Medicaid patients, both adult and children, every day of the week. These offices abound with patients receiving some of the finest medical care in the world. And these aren't isolated clinics, only serving the inner city or some other depressed area. They're EVERYWHERE, you just may not know it. But I see them, everyday. Today I called on over 15 different clinics and at least 12 of them were 60% Medicaid or above.

I will also agree that the American system of health care is definitely out of whack. Rocephin shots costing two and three hundred dollars? It's preposterous. I could really tell you some stories that would curl your hair but I think Haskins would pull out the cheese grater again and have to go to the ER.
At the same time I don't think the answer is for the government to provide free healthcare to all it's citizens. The answer lies in the free market but the insurance companies, a true pit of vipers all, will never allow it.


And what you are forgetting is that many times just plain bad luck happens. No decision on the part of one of my friend caused her husband to die, and leave her a pregnant widow. No decision on HER part made her destitute when that happened. No decision on her part caused her to have a heart attack, and continuing heart problems from that point on.


I addressed this in an earlier post.



And how easy do you think it is to get a new job, when you already spent many thousands of dollars on college, and built up an incredible list of skills for that particular career, only to have it outsourced? Do you think someone can "just go back to school, and learn a new skill?" Not everyone is qualified for grants, and loans have to be paid back. And there's no guarantee that today's Hot Market is going to be tomorrow's career.

Keep in mind, this person also has to work while getting an education. Who's minding the children if both parents are doing this, or if it's a single parent home? Because, guess what? Welfare will cut you OFF, if you try to continue your education.

Do you think living on minimum wage is possible, even if difficult? Have you -seen- what kind of place people are able to live in on minimum wage? Would you let your worst enemy live in a place that should, by all rights, be condemned? Doesn't a person working minimum wage deserve a safe place to live, where the plumbing, electrical, and heating works?





That's my point, drgnlvr. I never said it was easy. Ever. My heart goes out to people in the circumstances you list above. Nothing about life is certain. Not how long you live, how long your job will hold up, whether or not you'll get the job you want, nothing.
My point is that the answer to all of the problems does not lie with the government providing solutions. They can certainly play a role and they should, but people shouldn't be forced to rely on the government for their livelihood. I think it's a travesty to foist government largesse on someone and tell them "if you continue to vote for me I'll make sure that you'll be able to stay on this little pittance and rely on it for the rest of your life". It sickens me.


Gotta news flash for you...having your entire world turned on it's ear tends to make people broke. When that happens, you can't just scrape up a few thousand dollars to pack up and move the whole family.


Gotta news flash for you! Been in exactly that situation, almost verbatim. In fact, it's almost eerie. It wasn't pleasant but my wife and I did what millions of other Americans have done in similar situations - quit our b-------g and moaning about how unfair life is, and then dug ourselves out of a very large hole. It didn't happen overnight, which seems to be what everyone expects these days, but it happened. ANd it happens every day.

I don't mean to sound cold-hearted or cruel but to expect the government to provide a panacea-like world for it's citizens is just not realistic. It would be nice, yes, but it's unrealistic. But by no means should we give up and so we move on and do the best we can as a society.

sellthepharm
08-11-2005, 02:59 AM
Aspirin anyone?

Unique
08-11-2005, 03:21 AM
Aspirin anyone?

Sorry. Can't afford 'em now that they're 8 bucks a bottle.

sellthepharm
08-11-2005, 05:17 AM
Dirty, rotten drug companies.

robeiae
08-11-2005, 06:08 PM
Sorry. Can't afford 'em now that they're 8 bucks a bottle.
In the hospital, they're 50. Why doesn't everyone get this upset about wine and beer (they're kinda like medicine). I mean, a $12 bottle of wine will run you $60 in a restaurant; a six pack of beer costs $6 or a buck a bottle--anywhere from $2 to $4 a bottle when you have them at a watering hole. What's up with that? Don't you find "profit" to be evil?

Rob :)

P.S. What a dumb bill that was (in Alabama).

eldragon
08-11-2005, 06:46 PM
In the hospital, they're 50. Why doesn't everyone get this upset about wine and beer (they're kinda like medicine). I mean, a $12 bottle of wine will run you $60 in a restaurant; a six pack of beer costs $6 or a buck a bottle--anywhere from $2 to $4 a bottle when you have them at a watering hole. What's up with that? Don't you find "profit" to be evil?



Just as ordering a glass of wine in the restaurant, you are paying for more than the aspirin in the hospital.

You are paying the original person who purchased the aspirin. You are paying for the phone line used to purchase the aspirin. You are paying for the desk and chair and computer that the purchaser used while ordering the aspirin. You are paying for the A/C or heat, and lights that the purchaser used while ordering the aspirin. You are paying for the person who cleans the purchaser's office. You are paying for the person who cleans the purchaser's office's uniform. You are paying for office supplies. ETC. And, when the aspirin is delivered to the hospital ............you are paying for someone in receiving, inventory control, etc. You pay someone to wheel it on down to the pharmacy. You pay the pharmacist, and technicians. And the list of employees and expenses that are paid by that one aspirin order is very large.

It's the same thing as a restaurant. When someone says "I can buy a six pack of beer at the store for $6 ...........but here, in this ritzy joint, I pay $6 for one beer. What a rip-opp!"


Not really. You are paying for the person who ordered the beer ....the person who accepted the delivery .......the person who inventoried the beer .....the person who put it in a cooler ........the cooler and cost of running the cooler.....the waitress who took the order ........a bartender who filled the order. A barback who made sure the bar was stocked with ice. The hostess who sat you down in order for you to order a beer. The ..............etc.

It's actually done pretty cheap .....considering.

Tirjasdyn
08-11-2005, 10:00 PM
In the hospital, they're 50. Why doesn't everyone get this upset about wine and beer (they're kinda like medicine). I mean, a $12 bottle of wine will run you $60 in a restaurant; a six pack of beer costs $6 or a buck a bottle--anywhere from $2 to $4 a bottle when you have them at a watering hole. What's up with that? Don't you find "profit" to be evil?

Rob :)

P.S. What a dumb bill that was (in Alabama).

Actually no one really profits in the alcohol business. And yet the only people who pay are the customers. It is a very strange business to be in.

Tirjasdyn
08-11-2005, 10:08 PM
It's the same thing as a restaurant. When someone says "I can buy a six pack of beer at the store for $6 ...........but here, in this ritzy joint, I pay $6 for one beer. What a rip-opp!"


Not really. You are paying for the person who ordered the beer ....the person who accepted the delivery .......the person who inventoried the beer .....the person who put it in a cooler ........the cooler and cost of running the cooler.....the waitress who took the order ........a bartender who filled the order. A barback who made sure the bar was stocked with ice. The hostess who sat you down in order for you to order a beer. The ..............etc.

It's actually done pretty cheap .....considering.


Actually the price is different for everyone. Sorry I price alcohol for a living. Just cause you pay more doesn't mean that the place you buy it at doesn't pay more. Sometimes the place you pay $6 for it paid more for it than the place you bought it for $10. It depends on a lot of factors and programs. It also depends on the government which still regulates the business.

As for who your paying...you have to add in all the distributors costs as well. In the US, the law requires middle man distributors. Who work with 2ndary suppliers, who actually work with the people who make the stuff. All of which is government required.

You want to fix the price of alcohol in the US you've got to start by repealing the prohibition laws that regulate all this. (yes 80 year old laws)

You can't compare this to the medical or perscription industry at all.

Roger J Carlson
08-11-2005, 10:11 PM
The topic shifts in this thread are almost as dizzying as in Thread Killer! :faint:

eldragon
08-11-2005, 10:16 PM
Actually the price is different for everyone. Sorry I price alcohol for a living. Just cause you pay more doesn't mean that the place you buy it at doesn't pay more. Sometimes the place you pay $6 for it paid more for it than the place you bought it for $10. It depends on a lot of factors and programs. It also depends on the government which still regulates the business.

As for who your paying...you have to add in all the distributors costs as well. In the US, the law requires middle man distributors. Who work with 2ndary suppliers, who actually work with the people who make the stuff. All of which is government required.

You want to fix the price of alcohol in the US you've got to start by repealing the prohibition laws that regulate all this. (yes 80 year old laws)

You can't compare this to the medical or perscription industry at all.


Here in Mississippi ........where there are still dry counties ..........all alcohol is purchased from Alcohol Beverage Control ..........(ABC.)

This adds another "middle man" to the equation, and limits selection tremendously.

I used to work in beverage management, and beverage auditing as a cost accountant. (Yippee.)

JustinoXXV
08-12-2005, 12:39 AM
Well, the price of alcohol isn't outrageously expensive ,and it isn't your god given right to buy alcohol at the restaurant. So alcohol pricing doesn't need fixing.

ABC(every state has one) existed to stop people from just making their batch of crappy booze and selling it in a store or bar (where depending on how it was made it could make someone sick or kill them). The post prohibition era laws make the business safer and ensure that the government collects tax money.

eldragon
08-12-2005, 12:45 AM
every state has one

Every state has one or every state had one?

Because in MS .......all alcohol is purchased from .......and delivered directly onsight by ABC.

There are no other distributors. You cannot buy wine in Alabama (45 miles away) and bring it in MS. (at least you don't want to get caught.)

So, if you are looking for a bottle of decent wine at a nice restaurant here, you're likely to pay an odd price for it. Meaning, sometimes the grossest, rot gut products are very expensive, and sometimes, the better wines are affordable.

My friend from Houston was here a month ago and we went out to dinner. She ordered a bottle of red wine that she normally pays $150 for in Houston .....it was only $90. here.

William Haskins
08-12-2005, 01:14 AM
this thread is gay and should be banned.

trumancoyote
08-12-2005, 01:52 AM
Hehehe. Indeed.

JustinoXXV
08-12-2005, 02:41 AM
Eldragon, every state has one means that EVERY state in the country, as a result of the post prohibition laws, has an Alcohol Beverage Control, or ABC. Alcohol is tightly regulated in all states.

As for whether other states require the ABC to be the middleman of all purchases, I'm not sure. But be assured ABC is there, as you've got to have a license to sell liquor, and there are a number of other quality controls that are there by law. All states are very careful to ensure that criminals can't put their alcoholic products in stores, restaurants, bars, etc.

CaoPaux
08-12-2005, 03:38 AM
FWIW, here in CA one can buy alcohol from any licensed vendor. In the course of my job, I often wrangle with the ABC to get licenses for restaurants (another operational cost for the equation, heh).

But the analogy of health care to alcohol sales (or any other wholesale/retail venue) is still questionable because of the insurance companies and govít dictation of services. That is, it's not a free-market item.

Tirjasdyn
08-12-2005, 05:57 PM
Eldragon, every state has one means that EVERY state in the country, as a result of the post prohibition laws, has an Alcohol Beverage Control, or ABC. Alcohol is tightly regulated in all states.

As for whether other states require the ABC to be the middleman of all purchases, I'm not sure. But be assured ABC is there, as you've got to have a license to sell liquor, and there are a number of other quality controls that are there by law. All states are very careful to ensure that criminals can't put their alcoholic products in stores, restaurants, bars, etc.

Most have more than one. Every state has at least one but most have more. Colorado has quite a few, but here the secondary suppliers don't spread the product around. Example: If you want Crown or Smirnoff you have to go through us. So if you get pissed off and won't deal with us anymore you won't get many of the major brands of alcohol in your store. Whats more is that most of these are chains. We have sister company and we have a mother compay which in turn belongs to a national group.

Justino you are right about the regulations but the hoops can get crazy. Plus there are different liquor licenses for different ways and venues in which you serve liquor. You have to have two liscenses to sell outside and inside for example.

In Colorado, we are a blue law state. No off premise sales after midnight or on Sunday,though now you can bring wine home from a restaurant. Supermarkets only carry 3.2 beer and malts.

And, of course, it is very different for every state.

sassandgroove
08-12-2005, 11:52 PM
How sad. How dreadfully sad. Hey...anyone wanna move to Alabama?

I happen to like here, thank you very much, and you will note the bill DIED. Not everyone in the entire state is that way, just like not every one in the nation is like that.


They are far and few between, but there is a doctor here in my small town that understands how hard it is to get medical care when you don't have insurance.



His office takes $40 ......cash for the visit. They do not accept insurance of any kind.



We have insurance, but I have gone to him on occasion. What he is doing is so cutting edge .....& wonderful .....that I like to support it.





In fact, he is so rare, there was some kind of National news story about his practice, but it was about 3 years ago.........



Here's another thing .......we do have insurance, like I said. In July, my daughter was riding bikes with her dad and fell down on the pavement - causing a road burn - very badly on her leg.



I took her to an urgent care center - who cleaned it, wrapped it and prescribed a topical medicine. He then referred us to wound care, in the burn center of the hospital.



I took her to this wound care for 3 weeks ..........where they changed her bandages and scraped off skin when necessary ........used my prescription - and the visits never took more than 10 minutes. There were a few days, when a hurricane was headed this way, that they sent the supplies home with me ............and I did it.



Imagine my surprise when I get the hospital bill .......$2500. She never saw a doctor .....never required any prescriptions because we provided it. All it was .........bandages ....gauze ..........cleaning non-medicinal fluid.



So I ask you ..........if a kid without insurance fell on their bike ........could they afford this kind of care? My daughter will always have a horrendous scar. I think the cost is ridiculous. Just outrageous.



Makes me wonder what kind of kick-back the doctor who referred me to the wound care center - must be getting. At first, he told me "Just keep it clean."

Be wary of medical bills. I once had surgery and was told it was covered completely after I paid the $500 copay. well I was young and dumb. I got medical bills in the mail and just paid them with credit cards which ran me into some pretty deep debt, only to find out years later I should have fought it and said "No, insurance was supposed to pay that."

Now my husband works for a medical lab, and we get tests for free, and get bills every time. We were in a car accident, and the other driver's insurance covered our medical expenses, i had to stay on the hospital and insist the bills that kept coming were paid. I would call the insurance company when I got a new bill and he'd say "I paid that last week." So I'd call the hospital or ambulance company or whoever, and finally they would say, "Oh yeah..."

I think they bill every party for the occasions where the bills arn't questioned and they get double the money. Not evey hospital or clinic or lab, but I bet it is true for some.

CaoPaux
08-13-2005, 12:57 AM
Heh. I worked in health insurance for 4.5 years. The system is mired in bad computer systems, incompetent data entry, and ineffectual supervisors. In my opinion. :hat:

sassandgroove
08-13-2005, 01:30 AM
Heh. I worked in health insurance for 4.5 years. The system is mired in bad computer systems, incompetent data entry, and ineffectual supervisors. In my opinion. :hat:

Sounds like any company....the bigger they are the worse they are...:Shrug: