Starting with a dream sequence?

tricksterpython said:

This isn't one of those 'It was all a dream' things, but I was wondering if it's bad to start a book with a dream sequence as long as it's clearly marked as such (i.e. the character knows it's a dream even while having it). The scene in question could be shown in one of three ways: prologue, dream sequence, or flash back. Now I know what you're going to say. About half of you are probably going to jump all over that last option, because it has a better chance of being pulled off succesfully. The problem is, the scene doesn't want to be a flash back, it wouldn't have the same punch. So I'm stuck with either the dreaded prologue, or a dream sequence. Help?

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Okay- you're not going to like my answer at all, but I wouldn't start a novel with a dream-clearly stated or otherwise- a prologue, or a flash-back-

Why not just start with your story? All the devices you mentioned are not looked favorably upon by agents. Personally I have no problems with prologues, but many people do- some won't even read them, or read a book that starts with one.

Flash backs can be useful, but not in the begining, we don't know enough about the characters to appreciate a flashback. Dreams- don't get me started on dreams- if you search the forums I beleive there are several discusions on starting novels with dreams, or dreams in genral.

Told you, you weren't going to like it

If you MUST use a dream sequence, and it plays a major role in the story plot line, then start the story with the dream sequence as a reoccuring dream she has had for the past year or so. You don't have to have the character waiting a year then, or shift scene's to a year later. If there is more to show before she makes this decission to pursue this dream, then use the dream later once we have been introduced to the character.

Personally, I am not big for starting a story with a dream as a way to show the storyline. It feels like the author could not think of a better introduction...

Happy Holidays everyone...

I'd say not to-- I do not know your work, so it might be fantastic. Just write it how you want to, without inhibitions, and then later, start putting it together. Beginnings are the hardest part, I really kind of gloss over the beginning for a long time, trying to work on the conflicts. Once you have the conflicts, you see what Needs to be done with the beginning.

My current work in progress starts with a dream, because that's where the story starts. The main character knows she's dreaming, and she knows that whatever she's dreaming is going to happen sometime in the future, whether in a year or ten.

The inherent problem with opening with dream sequences is they aren't real. That may seem obvious, but you don't want to start with a false hook.

It's not nearly as interesting or identifiable as starting with an actual event. Nothing about the dream could be true--your character, her feelings, the environment--and why do the readers want to read something that might not be true?

Another thread about dreams mentioned that they make no sense. You mind uses dreams to process events from the past day or few days. They can contain a lot of symbolism and ideas that don't seem to make sense. Some are not in any linear order. This is part of the reason so many people have a fascination with dream interpretation.

If you must start with a dream sequence, it may be a good idea to keep this in mind.

There's always the rule about ignoring all rules if it works.

Make it work, or lose it.

In terms of your story and your intent for opening that story, defend your plan against the following statement (which may or may not be true in your case, hence your opportunity to defend):

Dream sequences as opening for stories are just fancy ways to give a "Dear Reader, here is an info dump you will need to know before I get into the real action of the story. I'm telling you this so you will have an immediate leg up on understanding the motivation of the MC's actions, and I don't trust you to get that information from my writing if I don't lay it out, plain and simple, before I get the story going."

Now, don't defend it here. In fact, don't even respond to this post if you don't want to. Just defend it to yourself before you start your story this way. If your defense is solid, proceed with passion...

Listen to that famous detective team, Nick and Neuro.

Seriously, it could work if you start with something like, "She couldn't fathom why she kept dreaming about it. It was such a small thing. But here she was, back again in the park/bedroom/car/planetarium/etc."

And keep it short, of course.

(My favorite dream sequence is the opening of The Time of the Dark by Barbara Hambly. First line: "Gil knew that it was only a dream." But it's not.)

If your only current choice is to start with a dream sequence, there's a good chance you're starting in the wrong place.

There are exceptions, but they are few and have to be brilliant to be acceptable.

As a reader, I don't care about some dream that your character(whom I don't yet care about either) is having.

So, there's this dream, and a year later the story starts? Really? What are you going to write about in between this dream and the start of the action when she graduates. I don't want to wade through a year of normal life before something really happens.

Sounds to me like you're starting the story in the wrong spot. The fact that she's had/ having this dream can be mentioned when she actually does something about it.

That said-- write the story. The whole thing. Then review it to see if the story starts when something happens, or not. Maybe you need the dream. Maybe only the author needs to read about it and the intervening time before the next catalyst-- and the reader can start when there's something to read about. (There are many, many things that we, as authors can and will know about our characters that have NO place in the story we are telling. The help us create a better story, but are not helpful to the reader.)

You could do it like this:

Chapter 1: Stuff happens.

Chapter 2: Twelve months later... More stuff happens.

NeuroFizz said:

In terms of your story and your intent for opening that story, defend your plan against the following statement (which may or may not be true in your case, hence your opportunity to defend):

Dream sequences as opening for stories are just fancy ways to give a "Dear Reader, here is an info dump you will need to know before I get into the real action of the story. I'm telling you this so you will have an immediate leg up on understanding the motivation of the MC's actions, and I don't trust you to get that information from my writing if I don't lay it out, plain and simple, before I get the story going."

Now, don't defend it here. In fact, don't even respond to this post if you don't want to. Just defend it to yourself before you start your story this way. If your defense is solid, proceed with passion...

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Well put. Dream sequences turn off a lot of agents as well. Why not weave in the dream later into your story? Does it have to be the first thing we read? Even if it's marked as a dream, as others have stated, it's not real.

tricksterpython said:

This isn't one of those 'It was all a dream' things, but I was wondering if it's bad to start a book with a dream sequence as long as it's clearly marked as such (i.e. the character knows it's a dream even while having it). The scene in question could be shown in one of three ways: prologue, dream sequence, or flash back.]

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I've been told off for starting my own WIP this way.

tricksterpython said:

I think you misinterpreted, (either that, or I once again failed at explaining. Note to self: never post questions on the forums at night.) it wasn't that she had a dream, and then a year later something actualy happened. The reason I wanted to make it a dream was to avoid that whole year when nothing happens. The dream itself is about a real event that occurs a year before the rest of the story, and like you, I didn't want to go through the entire year when nothing happens, so I thought I would just start when things actualy happen, but there wouldn't be a story at all if it weren't for that event a year before. My problem was, how to include that scene in the book when it's set apart from the rest of the story by a year. It made sense that my main character would relive the experience over and over again in her dreams.
I'm thinking that I'll write the scene, and then try to find a way to work it in later, instead of right up front. If I can't, then we'll see how beta readers react to a dream sequence up front.

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Okay, so if I'm understanding this right, she has a dream about him that reminds her of this little tiny event, she's wondering why she keeps thinking about it and if it means she might have feelings for him, and then she has an excuse to go thank him for something?

My first thought is the easiest thing to do would be to start the story with him doing whatever nice thing she wants to thank him for, and then you can deal with the other thing after that. You wouldn't necessarily need a whole flashback. Maybe she's uncertain about thanking him but wants to and is asking a friend for advice. Maybe her friend thinks she shouldn't bother for some reason, and she's saying, "but he did this really nice thing for me last year, too, and i feel like i owe him." Yeah it's being put in dialogue, but it might work more naturally. Or you could even just deal with her internal conflict about it. Or maybe it just makes her think back to this other thing that happened. Honestly you could probably sum up the whole thing in a, "But the truth was she hadn't been able to get him out of her head. For a whole year, ever since he (did whatever), he had always been floating around there at the back of her mind, popping up in the middle of calculus tests, chasing her when she went jogging. She had to thank him. Even if it was for something as tiny as (whatever), she had to say thanks. She had to speak to him again."

I don't know, I'm just making stuff up off the top of my head. Does that make sense, though? It doesn't sound like the flashback is all that important but to create a sort of nagging interest for her, and if that's the case it really doesn't warrant being in there. IMO anyway. I also haven't read it so I might be interpreting wrong. I just think this sounds too much like what Neuro was saying, that you're wanting to include it to give an info dump. The second part of the problem is that you'll have to then start with her waking up from said dream, doing basically nothing but expostulating over the conflicting feelings or whatever. Internal conflict is interesting, but not necessarily the best way to start a story.

tricksterpython said:

I guess I wasn't being very clear. In the case of a flash back, I would put it further on in the story, not right up front.
And to answer your question, it is the begining... sort of. The flash back/ dream/ prologue, is what starts it all, but the protagonist isn't in a position to pursue this new direction untill she graduates, which isn't for another year after the incident in question.

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Then you start the protagonist when she graduates, and refer to the dream. Honestly, your main problem in the start is to answer this question in the reader's mind: 'Oh yeah?'.'

Dreams, flashbacks, or stuff like that is like starting the novel with high emotion. THe reader just doesn't care about the character - yet - and you're pausing the process of getting to know the character to dream, think back on sweet/sad memories, of high feeling and so on. Things that have no context yet.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it needs a pretty expert hand - i think. In the beginning, you need to establish the character, and build up him/her. And the best way to do that is to have the character do something, and react to the doing.

Avoid the dream sequence. The vast majority when used in beginnings are used to try and get exposition done as quickly as possible so they can get onto the 'fun bits'.

So your character remembers a small thing about a person very important to her a year ago? I have bits like that in one of my WIPs but I use them (they're short flashbacks- what you might call a vignette) in order to raise the stakes once the story has already been established.

Maybe you could start at the point where she has actually decided to seek this person and then include a bit of backstory. A dream isn't action; the story isn't visibly moving forward, which makes it not particularly good for beginning a story.

tricksterpython said:

I'm writing a YA romance, so this isn't one of those typical 'big bad scary dreams' it's a dream about the love interest and, (in my head) the dream is sweet and fluffy. It leaves her confused about why she keeps remembering such a small thing though. That, and the fact that she wants to thank the person for something else, leads to her quest to find this person.

...I just realized how cliche that sounds.

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IMO the main problem in opening with a dream sequence is that we simply don't care enough about the protag for the dream to have any impact. We don't know anything about her whatsoever other than that she's having a sweet and fluffy dream about some guy we don't know either. Consider how this would play out in real life. If a stranger came up to you and told you they had this wonderful dream about a man you didn't know, would you care? On the other hand if a friend told you about having a similar dream you'd be far more interested.

There is always something to be said for thinking outside the box. I say try it, see how it works for you. But my suggestion is that you write it as if it is NOT a dream and then have your character wake from it, recall the emotions as real, etc.