How bad is "good enough"?

See the second quote in my sig line.

Let me explain. I read a book once, from a REALLY popular series, that contained three conjugations of the verb "to be" and five, count them FIVE, "-ing" verbs in the first paragraph. That's right, the first PARAGRAPH! And the first three "sentences" were single words..."-ing" verbs, no less.

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And?

Not all conjugations of the verb to be are passive. Passive is even sometimes the right thing to do. And there's no ban on using 'ing' either. They aren't hanging offences. Oh look. An 'ing'

If it works, it works.

ETA: and we're unofficial educators? Are we? WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME!? Ahem. I'm not. I write stories. I'm not here to teach but to entertain.

I do it to score with chicks.

1. Do not pay attention to what other authors "get away with."

2. Strive for excellence in your writing. Nothing less.

3. No matter what you achieve in your writing, always challenge yourself to work hard to get better.

4. Experiment with the craft, but always do so with two goals; doing something new and unique, and making yourself a better writer.

5. If your main goal is to find the minimal acceptable level of quality, you may want to consider a less creative endeavor. We don't need a bunch of C students.

I think there's a bell curve of quality in pretty much everything. And once you become a writer, you're more aware of the flaws in the stuff you read. For me, it's important to read the best stuff I can find because weak writing tends to get into my head, rattle around, and come out on my page. But good stuff makes my creative juices flow.

Wayne K said:

I do it to score with chicks.

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Word.

gilesth said:

"ing" verbs and "to be" ARE acceptable, but in moderation. Even when they aren't passive, overuse leaves the narrative flat.

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Which may or may not be true (I'm not going to mess around with the premise), but you didn't answer the most important question: did it work?

If it worked -- if the narrative was engaging, if that first paragraph helped suck readers into the story -- then I don't give a frost-covered shit about what rules it broke.

The only rule, to my mind, is this: whatever you do, it has to work.

gilesth said:

And yes, whether we like it or not, we do educate our readers in one way or another. They learn from our example, even if they only learn a little bit.

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Fuck. That.

I'm a storyteller. I use fragments, passive voice, -ing verbs, the lot.

I'm not an exemplar -- ask anyone.

willietheshakes said:

The only rule, to my mind, is this: whatever you do, it has to work.

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QFT.

NeuroFizz said:

1. Do not pay attention to what other authors "get away with."

2. Strive for excellence in your writing. Nothing less.

3. No matter what you achieve in your writing, always challenge yourself to work hard to get better.

4. Experiment with the craft, but always do so with two goals; doing something new and unique, and making yourself a better writer.

5. If your main goal is to find the minimal acceptable level of quality, you may want to consider a less creative endeavor. We don't need a bunch of C students.

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willietheshakes said:

The only rule, to my mind, is this: whatever you do, it has to work.

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So sorry to quote myself, but I wanted to mention that the statements in these two quotes are not, in any way, mutually exclusive (no one said they were, I just wanted to emphasize it). In fact they can be gestalt-ish.

gilesth said:

"ing" verbs and "to be" ARE acceptable, but in moderation. Even when they aren't passive, overuse leaves the narrative flat.

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Ah, but who decides what number is acceptable before it becomes Teh Evul? The reader. If the reader is engaged and wants to read on, if the writer has conveyed what they wished to covey, the words have done their job. Flat narrative is subjective anyway - what I call flat you might adore and vice versa.

And yes, whether we like it or not, we do educate our readers in one way or another. They learn from our example, even if they only learn a little bit.

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That's their problem. I'm not teaching anyone. Or you could say everyone is teaching everyone else just by doing whatever they do...and I ain't buying that either.

willietheshakes said:

If it worked -- if the narrative was engaging, if that first paragraph helped suck readers into the story -- then I don't give a frost-covered shit about what rules it broke.

The only rule, to my mind, is this: whatever you do, it has to work.

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This.

Fuck. That.

I'm a storyteller. I use fragments, passive voice, -ing verbs, the lot.

I'm not an exemplar -- ask anyone.

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That as well.

I do however, follow Neuro's little guidelines ( or rather, similar ones I set myself) Just good enough, isn't.

He wasn't swearing at you, he was expressing just how much he disagreed with you stance. That is not uncivil.

It didn't work. It was aweful!

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For you. It obviously worked for at least one person ( acquiring editor) Did it sell well?

In the end quality is all subjective. Once past a certain point of quality, what doesn't work for you, someone else may LOVE!

Using a style you don't like isn't an error - it's a style you don't like. That is all.

As far as teaching our readers is concerned, it's a fact, like it or not. You don't have to let it influence your writing. You don't even have to think about it if you don't want to.

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BTW, you just taught me to spell awful wrong Sorry, gonna have to call bollocks on that one. In other words, I do not agree that we are teaching ( unless we're writing non-fic maybe ) Even if we were, conjugating the to be verb isn't teaching anyone anything wrong as it's a perfectly valid conjugation.

gilesth said:

I tackled this topic on my blog recently, but I want to have a discussion with people regarding the quality of writing that can be found in any given bookstore. I wrote specifically about YA Fiction, but I KNOW that this problem occurs in every genre across the board.

You can read the post here, but the long and the short of it is, is it acceptable to allow our own work to be filled with grammatical and stylistic faux pas?

Let me explain. I read a book once, from a REALLY popular series, that contained three conjugations of the verb "to be" and five, count them FIVE, "-ing" verbs in the first paragraph. That's right, the first PARAGRAPH! And the first three "sentences" were single words..."-ing" verbs, no less.

Should we, as writers (unofficial educators) ignore something like that in our own writing, or should we try to make our books better?

Aaaannnnndddd...discuss

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Write what works for your story in your voice. Don't bother trying to sound like me or Stephenie Meyer or Stephen King or whomever. You'll just sound like a cheap imitation of me or Stephenie Meyer or Stephen King or whomever. And unless an author is standing directly in front of you in a classroom setting or has specifically written a "how to" book, you're barking up the wrong tree for education. It's good to read other authors for examples on how they write, but you shouldn't read their fiction specifically to learn how to write.

And I don't care if I've repeated specific words or phrases or formatting. It's what I needed to do to get my point across.

gilesth said:

It didn't work. It was aweful! (Which is why I didn't mention the book by name.)

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So we should just take your word for the "fact" that it didn't work? You who has a vested interest -- ie, supporting your point -- in it NOT working?

Sorry. You're going to have to do better than that.

gilesth said:

As far as teaching our readers is concerned, it's a fact, like it or not. You don't have to let it influence your writing. You don't even have to think about it if you don't want to.

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No, it's not a fact. It's an opinion.

gilesth said:

Oh, and on a side note: this is an exchange of opinions.

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See? Even YOU say it's an opinion.

gilesth said:

Meant to be civil. Drop the profanity, please.

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I've said nothing uncivil.

And, technically, nothing profane.

gilesth said:

I tackled this topic on my blog recently, but I want to have a discussion with people regarding the quality of writing that can be found in any given bookstore. I wrote specifically about YA Fiction, but I KNOW that this problem occurs in every genre across the board.

You can read the post here, but the long and the short of it is, is it acceptable to allow our own work to be filled with grammatical and stylistic faux pas?

Let me explain. I read a book once, from a REALLY popular series, that contained three conjugations of the verb "to be" and five, count them FIVE, "-ing" verbs in the first paragraph. That's right, the first PARAGRAPH! And the first three "sentences" were single words..."-ing" verbs, no less.

Should we, as writers (unofficial educators) ignore something like that in our own writing, or should we try to make our books better?

Aaaannnnndddd...discuss

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One word: voice. YA lit is very heavy on voice. The voices used being ones that are young adultish. If the voice is true to the character, and people (note: not you, but people) enjoy it, it's good writing. Also I'm sure you know that, as a grown up person, YA lit is not at all written to entice you to read it. You call it stylistic faux pas, but the author, the publisher, the bookseller, and the kid reading it call it a good book.

NeuroFizz said:

1. Do not pay attention to what other authors "get away with."

2. Strive for excellence in your writing. Nothing less.

.

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Yep. Yep. Yep.

Sloppy writing's out there and sometimes makes a gazillion. Moral of tale? Stories that hit the right buttons take all.

gilesth said:

...but how much of your writing has been influenced by what you read?

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I'm a writer exactly because of what I read, but what influenced me were the stories, the characters, not the grammar.

That I learned in school and then quickly forgot.

NeuroFizz said:

2. Strive for excellence in your writing. Nothing less.

3. No matter what you achieve in your writing, always challenge yourself to work hard to get better.

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These. Your writing should be as good as you can make it. Anything less is cheating the reader.

gilesth said:

I'm a bad speller sometimes. IdiotRUs, you make a great point, and I agree that, to an extent, it is bollocks, but how much of your writing has been influenced by what you read?

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Influenced, possibly. Taught? Novels didn't teach me grammar, or passive voice or any of that.( actually that was Katie )

And most readers aren't writers. All I might possibly teach them is whether or not they like what I write

gilesth said:

I tackled this topic on my blog recently, but I want to have a discussion with people regarding the quality of writing that can be found in any given bookstore. I wrote specifically about YA Fiction, but I KNOW that this problem occurs in every genre across the board.

You can read the post here, but the long and the short of it is, is it acceptable to allow our own work to be filled with grammatical and stylistic faux pas?

Let me explain. I read a book once, from a REALLY popular series, that contained three conjugations of the verb "to be" and five, count them FIVE, "-ing" verbs in the first paragraph. That's right, the first PARAGRAPH! And the first three "sentences" were single words..."-ing" verbs, no less.

Should we, as writers (unofficial educators) ignore something like that in our own writing, or should we try to make our books better?

Aaaannnnndddd...discuss

Click to expand...

So what? That doesn't make the writing bad or ungrammatical. Do you really judge fiction by the fact that it uses (Gasp!) cojugations of the verb "to be", or because it (Oh, Heavens!) has five "-ing" verbs in the first paragraph, or (How dare the writer!) actually uses one word sentences?

Much of the worst fiction I've read was bad solely because the writer worried so much about silly grammar rules that really aren't rules at all that they killed the very meaning of what good writing is supposed to be.

Failed writers are most often those who worry so much about the supposed "quality" of the writing that they fail to make the story and the characters worth reading about.

If the book is that popular, it obviously worked for a God-Almighty lot of readers. If the writing didn't work for you, I'd say it was because you're so obsessive about the writing itself that you can't see past the words to get to the story.

I think your post says a lot about you, and nothing at all about the quality of the book.

No, as writers we should not ignore writing like that. We should pray that we get good enough to use it in our own writing. Readers don't buy popular books because the writing is "good" or "bad", but because the writer is the master, not the "rules" of writing, and he or she found a way to write that made a story and characters come alive.

Teaching our readers? Ever heard the old saw about publisher's guidelines. "We're looking for quality writing, great stories, and wonderful characters. English teachers need not apply."

If you want to teach such rules, get a job as an English teacher. Those kids who want to be great writers will have to unlearn pretty much everything you teach, but at least they'll know what it is they need to forget.

The only think you'll teach your readers is not to buy your books.

willietheshakes said:

I've said nothing uncivil.

And, technically, nothing profane.

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You can swear at me if you'd like. I just took it as an attempt to bring sexy back to can lit.