New thinking about the quantum vacuum

I really should have studied physics, then I actually would have understood that link... The quantum mechanics from high school chemistry just won't swing it here.

But it sounds utterly cool.

It's wayyyy over my head too. So what is it promising, should it work as propulsion?

A gradual but ever-increasing acceleration? (and then to what velocity? Is it one of those things that just keeps picking up speed gradually until it's hitting half-light etc, but takes forever to de-celerate too?)

Or can you get a rapid acceleration? Like a railgun, someplace mentioned.

But I'm guessing the BIG prize would be: it's running off vacuum as it's "fuel" source? It's just consuming a little energy to push, and the vacuum energies (in endless supply) are pushing very very powerfully back to accelerate it?

My nephew is in Switzerland right now studying for his PHD in quantum physics- Now HE would understand that link- Me? not so much-

It has more going for it than the concept of exploding dozens of thermonuclear bombs in Antarctica as a propulsion system, which was recently discussed in a couple of threads here.

caw

This physicist isn't named Dean, is he ...

Pthom said:

Recently (Dec. 11, this year), a physicist proposed a method to make use of the magnetic field waves in a quantum vacuum to provide propulsive force.

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A quantum vacuum sounds way cooler than my Dyson with its Root Cyclone technology.

I'd heard about this. Like many, the science is over my head, but I gather that the theory is to effectively 'push' against the universe. If the theory is sound, it means that your acceleration will be a matter of power generation, and not reactive force. In short: No Rocket Fuel. That's pretty damn huge!

Shadow_Ferret said:

A quantum vacuum sounds way cooler than my Dyson with its Root Cyclone technology.

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I had to look that up. With the Dyson name I thought it might have something to do with Freeman Dyson, but no... I suppose I should look closer in the appliance aisle at Target.

It sounds vaguely like Heim-space Theory, which appears to postulate that a high-intensity, counter-rotating magnetic field can "push" off the subdimensional "structure" of normal space to provide FTL propulsion (or at least FTL-like propulsion).

Heim Theory was big a couple of years ago, but the excitement appears to have died off as no one but a few specialized theorists appear to be able to understand Heim's mathematics (though it has shown promise, last I heard, in particle physics predictions).

I am not one of those people who has the mathematics for Heims theory, but within my very limited knowledge, the idea in the OP seems plausible, although I don't see much suggestion of just what kind of thrust this engine would produce. If it does create thrust, it's definitely a step up from ion-drives and such, which lose mass, even if only a small amount. But the question is whether it can produce enough excess thrust compared to the engine and power generator's mass to make it worthwhile.

So, do they still laugh at harnessing infinite "zero point energy" then ???

Probably so.

That raises a question in my unschooled head, though, which is this:

Imagine a starship using the quantum vacuum stuff above for propulsion.

Would it be "depleting" or "using up" some resource in space, where you might end up with vast areas of "depleted" space? A "dead zone" where all the vacuum energy is used up, or where some basic function of space/time fails?

Or would each cubic meter of space hold a finite amount of energy that could be used for propulsion?

I'm guessing, no (at least to the first), because the whole thing about "vacuum energy" is that it just occurs naturally, it's quantum stuff creating and uncreating spontaneously?

(stop me when I utter error and correct my physics foolishness!)

But if it cannot be used up, then it must be infinite. If it's infinite, then that's too much energy to fit in any sort of finite Universe (such as ours, which having a fixed age must be finite)

Do we know where the energy or the fields that appear and wink out ... come FROM?

If not, what if we build a stardrive that sucks the 'life" out of quantum vacuum ... but suddenly we realize it's sucking the lifeforces out of sources that are random, not associated with our notions of spacetime? we turn the device on HERE and it drains the cosmic stuff out of THERE instead? And "THERE" becomes a swathe of destruction sweeping across New york city?

Orson Scott card raises that dilemma, I think, in ENDERS series: One terrible day, humanity realizes every time a starship jumps into hyperspace, it destroys somebody's sun?

So ... dare we tap into an energy source we don't yet understand whether it alone holds the Universe together at the seams?

Or do we strap on the suicide bombs and take out the Scary Sci-Fi Machine ... like the zealot in the movie CONTACT ???

But, okay, returning the rant to an actual Science Fact question:
* In what way might using this as a propulsion system actually deplete or damage areas of space/time?
* Is anything being depleted out of space?
* Are energy fields being deformed and destroyed?
* Would the fabric of spacetime be ... screwed with?

Entropy?

Kurt Vonnegut, by any standard a brilliant mind, has an essay where he posits the proper word for this stuff:

Phlogiston.

Look it up.

caw

small axe said:

Imagine a starship using the quantum vacuum stuff above for propulsion.

Would it be "depleting" or "using up" some resource in space, where you might end up with vast areas of "depleted" space?

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If my understanding is correct, it isn't about an energy source .. simply about having something to push 'against'. So it would still require fuel, but no longer require a 'working fluid'.

That's because existing technology simply throws stuff out the back very fast .. it can't 'push' against anything so effectively the centre of mass of the ship + exhaust stays in the same place. (Or near enough for the sake of argument)

But if we could 'push' against something we could save shipping around all that mass, just so we could throw out the back when we want to move.

This is the kind of thing that would make space travel practical.

Mac

Pthom said:

The idea that a super propulsion system "uses up something" is the main plot point of a novel I read years ago. I just wish I could recall the title. (Old age sucks, sigh.)

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I'm an irregular participant on rec.arts.sf.written where people give answers to YASID's (Yet Another Story ID) all the time. Shall I ask about that? As much info as you can remember about it would be helpful, but that's likely enough for someone to come up with the story (or even ALL stories with that premise).

Pthom said:

As to the universe being finite, I believe the commonly held belief is that the universe is indeed dimensionally infinite (extends forever in all directions). How that works is also beyond the capacity of my little pea brain.

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I've heard you can go in a straight line forever, but if you go for long enough, you will come back to where you were from the opposite direction (analogous to moving on the surface of a sphere).

But actually THINKING about it, you can go at the speed of light in any direction forever. The Universe may be only 20 billion lightyears in radius at the moment, but it's also expanding at the speed of light (the earliest photons are at the 'edge'), so no matter which direction you go and for how long, you'll go further and further away but you'll always be within he universe.

Pthom said:

If that be the case, then it would seem impossible to use up anything. However, the idea that there might be areas where the "stuff" used in such a propulsion system is used up is likely.

Oh, and I think the idea of the quantum propulsion system (the subject of this thread) is that of conservation of momentum, not of mass.

And what happens if we use up, as small axe suggests, the universe's momentum?

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I'm trying to wrap my mind around that and its effects. Would the force from accelerating a mass mass no longer equal the gravitational force on a mass? Did I even say that right? < insert barfing smilie here >

It looks simple enough, if one can find a way to tap it. Several years ago someone came up with the idea of capturing the energy that forced the plates apart. It would work, if it didn't require equal amount of force to return the Casimir plates to the initial location. I think that this may run into a similar problem; although using a rotary force may help. Setting it up as a nearly traditional electric motor would work, if someone could make components that would be small enough to fit between the plates. The output would be constant, but so small that it couldn't run anything big enough for nanos to use.

Liosse, From what I know about Heim Theory the drive system is not reactionless. You still need engines and thrust to get you from point A to point B and the rules for space travel don't change (ie you still accelerate from point A, turn over halfway there, and decelerate the rest of the way to point B). What it appears to do is to alter local space/time in such a way that the light speed limit for the area the generator is operating in is fundamentally altered allowing it to "appear" to travel at FTL speeds. It's way beyond me, but it's supposed to operate at the Planck level somehow.

Somewhere around here I've got the paper and theory that was presented awhile back, but it's way deeper than I can even begin to understand.

Pthom, You're right, of course. My example was the way that New Scientist tried to describe a ship moving within Heim Space on a journey to Mars or anywhere else (it'd be a wonderful discovery and an exciting thing to have FTL discovered within my lifetime, but I ain't holding my breath - I'm fairly certain the universe doesn't exactly work that way).

Where's Lhun when we need him? He'd know a lot about this stuff too.

blacbird said:

Kurt Vonnegut, by any standard a brilliant mind, has an essay where he posits the proper word for this stuff:

Phlogiston.

Look it up.

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Man, I hate being dephlogisticated.