Carrying weapons on a plane

Sam M

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I have a former KGB agent on-board a 747 departing from Moscow to New York City. During the flight, several armed men storm the cockpit. I have a few questions which are pertinent to establishing a sense of realism for this scene.

One: Since the story takes place post-9/11, what are the standard protocols for flight marshals? Are those marshals permitted to carry firearms, and if so, can they have the weapon on them at all times?

Two: My former KGB agent still has his old badge. Would it be feasible for him to be allowed to carry a weapon on-board if he were assumed to be still an active agent?

Three: Would other agencies -- such as the FBI, CIA, etcetera -- be allowed to carry weapons either?

Four: Ballistic vests are made of interwoven fibres and contain, to my knowledge, no steel which would set off airport metal detectors. Since most marshals would carry low-velocity, frangible ammo, would the ballistic vest stop those slugs?

Thank you for any help proffered.
 

heyjude

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:welcome: Sam M!

I'm going to put this thread in Story Research (the Experts forum, a bit above us) for a wider read. Let me know if you have any questions.
 

jeseymour

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I saw a program about the air marshals, they do carry weapons, they are certainly carrying them at all times, that's their job. This program pointed out that the TSA people had the air marshals walk around the metal detectors, which sort of defeats the whole purpose of an undercover agent.
 

Barb D

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... the TSA people had the air marshals walk around the metal detectors, which sort of defeats the whole purpose of an undercover agent.

I walk around the metal detectors because I have an implanted medical device that could be potentially affected by them. I get hand patted every time I fly (and when I went to the Statue of Liberty, and the Empire State Building...) The point being that it's not totally unheard of for people to do that. I wonder if they hand pat or wand the air marshals.
 

PeterL

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I have a former KGB agent on-board a 747 departing from Moscow to New York City. During the flight, several armed men storm the cockpit. I have a few questions which are pertinent to establishing a sense of realism for this scene.

One: Since the story takes place post-9/11, what are the standard protocols for flight marshals? Are those marshals permitted to carry firearms, and if so, can they have the weapon on them at all times?

You already have this.

Two: My former KGB agent still has his old badge. Would it be feasible for him to be allowed to carry a weapon on-board if he were assumed to be still an active agent?

If the TSA people were completely brain dead, then he would be allowed to carry a weapon on a plane. If they were doing their jobs, then he would be dragged off for interrogation.

Three: Would other agencies -- such as the FBI, CIA, etcetera -- be allowed to carry weapons either?

Other U.S. police would be allowed to carry, if they needed to.

Four: Ballistic vests are made of interwoven fibres and contain, to my knowledge, no steel which would set off airport metal detectors. Since most marshals would carry low-velocity, frangible ammo, would the ballistic vest stop those slugs?

Almost any ballistic vest could stop a slug.
 

MarkEsq

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Any law enforcement officer carrying a weapon on board has to fill out certain "papers" which they then carry copies of. So, if your man is going through the line and is asked for his ID, and the TSA person sees his badge, he may well ask "Are you carrying papers?"
I know, cos it's happened to me a couple of times. (I have newspapers, that's all.:))
 

icerose

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One of our friends is a SWAT commander (well it's actually SORT which is a step above swat) when he came out to visit us, the regulations for him were no weapons on his person, he could have a locked gun case with a weapon in it with his baggage with no ammo. He could not bring ammo with it, and they were humorless.

He nearly got arrested and detained because he showed them his badge to prove he was who he really was. They didn't care. It was a specific locked case or no gun. In fact he could only bring one and not two like he'd planned.

For those agents to storm onto the plane guns drawn, they'd have to be in a different country or a small airport. The big ones are insane about security. They check your shoes, they run the wand, they have dogs specializing in explosives (sorry bullets won't get past them). They are now putting in exray machines that can look clear to your skin. So hidden under layers of clothes don't even work now.

They even look for parts of bombs and what not.
 

icerose

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My mistake, you said he was departing from Moscow, that's a totally different thing. They wouldn't storm on in New York, but Moscow it might be possible, you'd have to check with that country's regulations. I was thinking from a US perspective, sorry.
 

Sarpedon

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As far as the KGB badge goes, that would be about 20 years out of date, and sure to raise eyebrows amongst any inspectors. In eastern bloc countries, you can frequently get Soviet, or imitation Soviet military items as souvenirs (i.e. hats, uniforms, insignia, valenki, badges, knives). The idea of anyone respecting a KGB badge is not believable.

If it was an FSB badge, that might be a different story.
 

BillPatt

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We're KGB, we don't need no stinkin badges!

Some slugs will penetrate vests, whether the old-style military vests or the new fangled Kevlar ones. Google "Cop killer bullets" for more than you ever wanted to know. Then there are "armor-piercing" or AP rounds - either explosive tipped or depleted uranium.

I really don't know if air marshals are using frangible rounds, but if they are, they're going to get stopped by a vest. I wouldn't count on the aircraft not depressurizing - they're more like aluminum balloons than anything else.
 

smcc360

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One: Since the story takes place post-9/11, what are the standard protocols for flight marshals? Are those marshals permitted to carry firearms, and if so, can they have the weapon on them at all times?

Federal air marshals can carry firearms off-duty, in the United States or her territories. Overseas, it varies widely, but they generally can't travel armed in other countries.

Two: My former KGB agent still has his old badge. Would it be feasible for him to be allowed to carry a weapon on-board if he were assumed to be still an active agent?

It depends on the airline. On a US carrier: No. On a Russian airline: I have no idea.

Three: Would other agencies -- such as the FBI, CIA, etcetera -- be allowed to carry weapons either?

Law enforcement officers can carry firearms on US air carriers to domestic destinations. There are a number of procedural hoops to jump through.
Foreign destinations require the involvement of the US Dept. of State and the equilavent organization in the destination country. It's very rare that US law enforcement officers will be permitted to carry firearms in a foreign nation, even 'friendly' ones like the UK.

The CIA isn't a law enforcement agency, so they have can't carry firearms on commercial aircraft under the laws and policy that allow cops to do it.

Four: Ballistic vests are made of interwoven fibres and contain, to my knowledge, no steel which would set off airport metal detectors. Since most marshals would carry low-velocity, frangible ammo, would the ballistic vest stop those slugs?

Yes. Low-velocity frangible rounds are actually easier for a ballistic vest to defeat.

Some older vests have a metal plate in the center of the chest (the 'trauma plate'), which will set off a magnetometer. The newer vests have non-metallic trauma plates.
 

Summonere

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Are those marshals permitted to carry firearms, and if so, can they have the weapon on them at all times?

Absolutely yes. Sig P229R in .357SIG, 12+1 rounds.

Since most marshals would carry low-velocity, frangible ammo,

This is incorrect. The point of choosing the .357 Sig round is that it penetrates very well and can be very destructive. They don't use frangible ammunition. They used to use Speer Gold Dot 125-grain hollow points, but may have moved on to something else these days (this is 2005-2006 info).

would the ballistic vest stop those slugs?

The round is great at penetrating people, but not vests. FAMs will shoot noggins if they encounter targets that don't fall fast enough (for any reason, including vests).
 

AceTachyon

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Some slugs will penetrate vests, whether the old-style military vests or the new fangled Kevlar ones. Google "Cop killer bullets" for more than you ever wanted to know. Then there are "armor-piercing" or AP rounds - either explosive tipped or depleted uranium.

Certain vests are rated to stop certain calibers of rounds. The most common vest is Level IIIA, which is rated to stop up to .44 Magnum. Note: Rifle rounds will go through these vests. More info here.

"Cop killer bullets" are a myth, BTW. Teflon-coated bullets will not penetrate steel. The coating is actually used to reduce lead abrasion in the barrel of a gun.
 

Mike Martyn

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Weapons on a plane?

My personal preference would be snakes; snakes on a plane...

icon12.gif
 

Aquilegia

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Just a thought, but what if he took off from a smaller, regional airport, say, way up north heading to Moscow? I’ve never taken off from Russia, but I imagine security is extremely tight in Moscow since Russia has internal terrorism problems.

Here's a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Russia I'd stay away from anything in the far east and definitely in the south, though.

Some places might have somewhat different regulations or habits that could let something slip by for the right person. Does he have connections inside the airport or could he have bribed someone ahead of time? (I have Russian friends who do business in Moscow and it sounds like some seriously crazy schnitt goes down there, so you never know.)
 

Sarpedon

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You know, security in Russia isn't any more tight than any other country I've been to. The primary outrage committed against me when leaving St Petersburg was the customs guy made me unroll the huge bundle of architectural drawings I had with me at the time, which I found extremely difficult to roll back up and stuff back into its tube while at the security counter of the airport. They got wrinkled. I was pissed. Apparently he thought I might be smuggling technical blueprints or valueable art out of the country, in my plastic drawing tube. I guess I could have been doing a Jing Ke, so I ought not to have been upset. But then again, it did go through the xray machine.

Then there was the usual metal detectors, and several really hot Russian army chicks, and that was about it for security, at least in St Petersburg.

If anything, security was tighter going IN than coming out. But that's typical as well.
 
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Rowan

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I hope this helps!
I have a former KGB agent on-board a 747 departing from Moscow to New York City. During the flight, several armed men storm the cockpit. I have a few questions which are pertinent to establishing a sense of realism for this scene.

One: Since the story takes place post-9/11, what are the standard protocols for flight marshals? Are those marshals permitted to carry firearms, and if so, can they have the weapon on them at all times? YES

Two: My former KGB agent still has his old badge. Would it be feasible for him to be allowed to carry a weapon on-board if he were assumed to be still an active agent? NOT LIKELY

Three: Would other agencies -- such as the FBI, CIA, etcetera -- be allowed to carry weapons either? YES, I can speak from personal experience; federal agents are allowed to carry firearms while on travel aboard aircraft (domestic travel). :)

Four: Ballistic vests are made of interwoven fibres and contain, to my knowledge, no steel which would set off airport metal detectors. Since most marshals would carry low-velocity, frangible ammo, would the ballistic vest stop those slugs? I think so but I'm not ballistic vest expert and I've got no clue what ammo Air Marshal's carry...

Thank you for any help proffered.
 

StephanieFox

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If your folks do stick fighting, it's easy to get one on a plane. A few years ago, my husband hurt his food while on vacation and there was no problem for him to carry a cane on board.

You could check on the safety regs in getting on a plane in Russia, which would be different than betting on in the USA.
 

ideagirl

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I have a former KGB agent on-board a 747 departing from Moscow to New York City. During the flight, several armed men storm the cockpit. I have a few questions which are pertinent to establishing a sense of realism for this scene.

One: Since the story takes place post-9/11, what are the standard protocols for flight marshals? Are those marshals permitted to carry firearms, and if so, can they have the weapon on them at all times?

Here's a 2007 article about EU law--it's relevant if the plane flies over any EU country, which it probably would (the Baltic countries and a couple of Scandinavian countries would normally be on the flight path):
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2007/04/27/Air-marshal-guns-restricted-on-EU-flights/UPI-10751177647055/
"BRUSSELS, April 26 (UPI) -- The European Parliament has voted to allow air marshals to carry weapons on flights only under strict conditions. Air marshals must get permission from the country granting the airline's operating license, the departing country and each nation along the flight path, to be able to carry guns in flight, Deutsche Welle said Thursday."


Assuming they get that permission, then yes, they've got guns. Common sense suggests that the guns would be on them--it would be insane to leave them in a carry-on bag or something.


Two: My former KGB agent still has his old badge. Would it be feasible for him to be allowed to carry a weapon on-board if he were assumed to be still an active agent?

Three: Would other agencies -- such as the FBI, CIA, etcetera -- be allowed to carry weapons either?

I don't know about the CIA, but I think the FBI and other federal law enforcement (DEA) may be able to. Not sure of that. However, it would be mind boggling to me if a KGB agent were able to carry a gun on the flight you're describing. Even without considering federal laws and air marshall and airline rules, a non-US citizen can't carry a firearm in the US unless he has both a green card and a carry permit that's valid in the state he's in--and New York is notoriously tough even for US citizens to get carry permits in, so there's no way he can carry it; as soon as the plane lands in New York, he's committing a felony.
 

BudMan

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I have a former KGB agent on-board a 747 departing from Moscow to New York City. During the flight, several armed men storm the cockpit. I have a few questions which are pertinent to establishing a sense of realism for this scene.

One: Since the story takes place post-9/11, what are the standard protocols for flight marshals? Are those marshals permitted to carry firearms, and if so, can they have the weapon on them at all times?

Two: My former KGB agent still has his old badge. Would it be feasible for him to be allowed to carry a weapon on-board if he were assumed to be still an active agent?

Three: Would other agencies -- such as the FBI, CIA, etcetera -- be allowed to carry weapons either?

Four: Ballistic vests are made of interwoven fibres and contain, to my knowledge, no steel which would set off airport metal detectors. Since most marshals would carry low-velocity, frangible ammo, would the ballistic vest stop those slugs?

Thank you for any help proffered.
I am a retired police officer and also a retired soldier. I carry a gun every waking moment outside my home and travel extensively. I am authorized to carry by the Law enforcement Officer Safety Act of 2004.

1. TheKomitet gosudarstvennoy bezopasnosti (KGB) was the USSR's internal security, intelligence and secret police organization. They did not carry badges but did have an identity disk along with ID documents. They did not ever carry those documents outside the Soviet Union.
2. Since 9/11/2001., no one carries a firearm on an aircraft with the exception "Air marshalls" which are agents of the Federal Air Marshall Service, TSA, US Dept of Homeland Security.
3. When I , or any active or retired police officer including Federal agents of all the agencies, fly on an aircraft, we have to complete a document at the airport counter and provide a lockable gun case. The weapon will be examioned to make sure it is unloaded. Once that is completed the locked case is placed in the baggage being stored and you can retrieve your weapon at the other end on arrival.

3. There are exceptions and they are covered in 49 USC 1544 and the xceptions are:


§ 1544.219 Carriage of accessible weapons.


(a) Flights for which screening is conducted. The provisions of §1544.201(d), with respect to accessible weapons, do not apply to a law enforcement officer (LEO) aboard a flight for which screening is required if the requirements of this section are met. Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to a Federal Air Marshal on duty status under §1544.223.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by TSA, the armed LEO must meet the following requirements:
(i) Be a Federal law enforcement officer or a full-time municipal, county, or state law enforcement officer who is a direct employee of a government agency.
(ii) Be sworn and commissioned to enforce criminal statutes or immigration statutes.
(iii) Be authorized by the employing agency to have the weapon in connection with assigned duties.
(iv) Has completed the training program “Law Enforcement Officers Flying Armed.”
(2) In addition to the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, the armed LEO must have a need to have the weapon accessible from the time he or she would otherwise check the weapon until the time it would be claimed after deplaning. The need to have the weapon accessible must be determined by the employing agency, department, or service and be based on one of the following:
(i) The provision of protective duty, for instance, assigned to a principal or advance team, or on travel required to be prepared to engage in a protective function.
(ii) The conduct of a hazardous surveillance operation.
(iii) On official travel required to report to another location, armed and prepared for duty.
(iv) Employed as a Federal LEO, whether or not on official travel, and armed in accordance with an agency-wide policy governing that type of travel established by the employing agency by directive or policy statement.
(v) Control of a prisoner, in accordance with §1544.221, or an armed LEO on a round trip ticket returning from escorting, or traveling to pick up, a prisoner.
(vi) TSA Federal Air Marshal on duty status.
(3) The armed LEO must comply with the following notification requirements:
(i) All armed LEOs must notify the aircraft operator of the flight(s) on which he or she needs to have the weapon accessible at least 1 hour, or in an emergency as soon as practicable, before departure.
(ii) Identify himself or herself to the aircraft operator by presenting credentials that include a clear full-face picture, the signature of the armed LEO, and the signature of the authorizing official of the agency, service, or department or the official seal of the agency, service, or department. A badge, shield, or similar device may not be used, or accepted, as the sole means of identification.
(iii) If the armed LEO is a State, county, or municipal law enforcement officer, he or she must present an original letter of authority, signed by an authorizing official from his or her employing agency, service or department, confirming the need to travel armed and detailing the itinerary of the travel while armed.
(iv) If the armed LEO is an escort for a foreign official then this paragraph (a)(3) may be satisfied by a State Department notification.
(4) The aircraft operator must do the following:
(i) Obtain information or documentation required in paragraphs (a)(3)(ii), (iii), and (iv) of this section.
(ii) Advise the armed LEO, before boarding, of the aircraft operator's procedures for carrying out this section.
(iii) Have the LEO confirm he/she has completed the training program “Law Enforcement Officers Flying Armed” as required by TSA, unless otherwise authorized by TSA.
(iv) Ensure that the identity of the armed LEO is known to the appropriate personnel who are responsible for security during the boarding of the aircraft.
(v) Notify the pilot in command and other appropriate crewmembers, of the location of each armed LEO aboard the aircraft. Notify any other armed LEO of the location of each armed LEO, including FAM's. Under circumstances described in the security program, the aircraft operator must not close the doors until the notification is complete.
(vi) Ensure that the information required in paragraphs (a)(3)(i) and (ii) of this section is furnished to the flight crew of each additional connecting flight by the Ground Security Coordinator or other designated agent at each location.
(b) Flights for which screening is not conducted. The provisions of §1544.201(d), with respect to accessible weapons, do not apply to a LEO aboard a flight for which screening is not required if the requirements of paragraphs (a)(1), (3), and (4) of this section are met.
(c) Alcohol. (1) No aircraft operator may serve any alcoholic beverage to an armed LEO.
(2) No armed LEO may:
(i) Consume any alcoholic beverage while aboard an aircraft operated by an aircraft operator.
(ii) Board an aircraft armed if they have consumed an alcoholic beverage within the previous 8 hours.
(d) Location of weapon. (1) Any individual traveling aboard an aircraft while armed must at all times keep their weapon:
(i) Concealed and out of view, either on their person or in immediate reach, if the armed LEO is not in uniform.
(ii) On their person, if the armed LEO is in uniform.
(2) No individual may place a weapon in an overhead storage bin.


4 Body armor. There are many levels of bodty armor but basically, and Level 1 or 2 (without metal or ceramic inserts) would be able to stop frangible hand gun information.

My apologies for the length of the response. I am a brand new member so i wanted to be accurate as possible but I apologize for the bandwidth.