Aggravating Jackass at FWA Conference...

fullbookjacket

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In October, I attended the annual conference of the Florida Writers Association. There were a number of really good presentations with lots of good insights on the craft and business of writing.

One presenter (a guy with a long list of credits) was speaking about fictional characters and their motivations. He named a lot of reasons why a character would behave a given way. With each motivation, he would begin with a question, such as "Why does a person cheat?" or "Why does a person love?" He would then proceed to list some reasons. Fair enough.

At one point he asked, "Why does a person hate?" His answer was, "Maybe the person is an atheist."

I waited for a moment to see if he would state the obvious alternative, such as "Or maybe the person is religious." But no. He leaves hating to the mean old atheists and moves on.

I got up and left. In hindsight, I wish I had stayed and then challenged his bias during the question and answer period.
 

spectrefox

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Ouch...

Myself and many of the atheists I know don't hate anything. Actually, some of us are rather apathetic concerning opinion and religion. We just don't care either way.

If I was in on that, I probably would have noticed it, and it would have stung. But most of the people I know would not have even thought about it. Afterwards, I wouldn't have remembered it. I usually don't remember much from presentations, I'm sad to say, unless they've handed out papers to jog my memory with later.

On the other hand, I know people who would have gotten up, stopped him in the middle of his talk, and challenged him on it.

As long as you were going to say it nicely, then yes, I think you should have stayed! Nothing better than to get rid of some prejudices :). Then again, he might have dismissed the question entirely, or the challenge may have derailed the rest of the talk (starting a battlefield is rarely wanted).

Just my opinion ;).
 

Wayne K

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I'm not an atheist, and I feel you there.

This would probably be a bad place to say "That's why god gave you legs" :D

Just keep moving. Stay away from negative people.
 

entropic island

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Wow. Just wow. What an idiot. If you were asked that question, you should've said, "Maybe they're clueless authors who attend conventions and publicly make incredibly ignorant and offensive statements about atheist people. Just throwing that out there."
 

Ruv Draba

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Well, let's be honest.

Atheists can and do hate religious folk... Not all, and not all the time, and the hating isn't particular to the atheism. Atheists can hate the way that women or gays or ethnic minorities sometimes hate -- a sort of dull resentment like toothache that one tries to work around, but which occasionally flares into anger at arrant injustice.

It's easy for the godful to attribute the hatred to godlessness, just as it's easy for some men to ascribe women's frustration to mood-swings, but I think it's more often about powerlessness and lack of respect. You can tell because atheistic anger is normally targeted at the same specific behaviours and events.

In fairness, the godful are just as good at hating -- or even better. Monotheism in particular has a track record of extraordinary intolerance. (Which is not to deny that there's huge variation among the godful in this regard.)

I don't know that the problem is religion itself -- though supremacist dogmas don't help -- but I think it is the way that religion -- or rather, an individual's faith -- can get very tribal. Not all religious faith is tribal, but the sort that generates bigotry and unthinking loathing often is.

Tribal faith is an insular, xenophobic, self-serving social construct. The tribal zealot donates his faith, his loyalty and his individuality and in return gains security, belonging and purpose.

A tribesman needs to tribalise his kinfolk and friends, or distance them -- because intimacy requires a high degree of conformity for the tribal sense of security to work. The distancing is essential to maintain the security of tribal boundaries. It generally includes some expression of revulsion or disgust. It might be hostility ('you're an evil and corrupting influence'); it might be condescension ('an infidel can't possibly understand my holy texts'), malicious meddling ('your marriage and customs deserve no legal status'), contempt ('atheists are haters') or neglect ('why should I care what someone not of my tribe needs?'). It might be sublimated into religious ideology ('I don't hate; I just look after my own'), but it will still be noticable to the recipient.

A problem atheists have with the tribally-religious is that tribesmen tend to see everyone in terms of tribe. A tribe must have characteristics they can generalise about, and a foreign tribe is inherently subversive and inferior. ('Atheism is a religion; atheism is an ideology; atheists are secretly communists, libertines or devil-worshippers and they're conspiring to destroy us').

The word 'atheism' was not invented by atheists, but by the tribally religious to mean 'people who live among my tribe but are not of the tribal faith'. Atheists have no need for a term 'living without gods'; neither do people of individual faith. It's the tribally religious who need such terms to work out whether we're in the tribe or outside it. And the main point of that term is to treat atheists collectively -- as a tribe.

The tribally religious sees atheists as a tribe and cannot see them otherwise. And one of the things he'll believe (partly because he expects it, partly because he's told it, partly because he provokes it, and partly because he's inherently xenophobic) is that an atheist must somehow loathe his tribe.

This is eminently unjust: firstly because atheists aren't part of an atheistic tribe, secondly because of the bias involved, thirdly because much of what tribesmen see is their own xenophobia reflected, and finally because much atheistic anger is provoked by bad tribal behaviour in the first place. But a tribesman is an intellectually conservative creature -- his loyalty demands education in the ways of the tribe and not much else. It's almost impossible for a tribesman to see his tribe from the outside-in, or to see a non-tribesman from outside his tribal frame.

What to do about this?

I don't believe that it's terribly helpful to get furious -- though sometimes it's important to let the tribally religious see their impacts. There's no point asking the tribally religious to be an individual and not a tribesman -- he's a tribesman because that's what he wants to be. Neither is insulting the tribe terribly useful either. It just confirms what he expects in the first place -- that anyone outside the tribe is a potential enemy.

The nearest and best answer I have comes from Steven Pressfield's thoughts on dealing with Afghani tribesmen -- if you're dealing with someone who's tribally religious and bigoted to boot, you have to pretend to be a tribesman of some (possibly nonexistant) tribe yourself, assert your power and negotiate a deal regarding behaviour -- because tribesmen don't respect individuals,only tribes. And tribes only ever change their thinking from the inside, and only slowly. No-one from outside the tribe can ever negotiate tribal ideology, and an individual without tribe doesn't even rate in a tribesman's eyes.

I believe that this is exactly what tribes of women and ethnic minorities and religious minorities and gay people have done successfully with the thinking of dominant tribes. They had to form tribe before they got any traction at all. But it's harder for atheists because atheism is generally not about tribal belief, but individual thought.

It's not ideal; it's nothing like the way I wish it was. Part of the reason I'm an atheist is that I don't want some ideological tribe telling me what to think. But responding to tribal prejudice with pseudotribal authority is alas the best answer I've unearthed to date for dealing with tribal bigotry.
 
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entropic island

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I (an atheist) don't hate religious folk unless they try to convert me.
 

Ruv Draba

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I (an atheist) don't hate religious folk unless they try to convert me.
You may find that a tribal view of religion will condemn you for that hatred while considering a conversion attempt decent and civilised. A tribesman cannot see that by attempting to tribalise you -- convert you -- or threatening you with hell or oblivion for not converting he's condemning and demeaning who you are, even if he never actually comes out and says it.

For some reason the lessons that it's wrong to make women wear dresses, to force indigenes to act like colonials, or to train people born gay to be straight, don't translate to it being wrong to try and make nontheists religious. It's like every battle needs to be fought anew with pretty much the same tribes.
 
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entropic island

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Good point. But aren't there some religions that acknowledge science, logic and equality? Like, the religions that talk solely about events post-death. I wouldn't really know. I've never been to church, read a Bible, or anything.
 

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Such casual assumptions are allowed to go unquestioned all the time. I watched Steve Harvey (the comedian) on a talk show telling ladies how to find the man of their dreams (I should point out, that while the interview was tinged with humour, he was doing this in all seriousness). He said it was important to have conversations with men to see if your values were the same. He said, for example, if the guy says he's an atheist you should run the other way because he's obviously got no morals.

No one said a thing when he said this. He just moved on to the next question. There wasn't so much as a gasp. Imagine if he'd said, "If he's black then run the other way because he has no morals" or "if he's christian run the other way because he has no morals".

It's a fear many religious people have of atheists. The idea that since they don't believe in god they can't have any morality because that's where morality comes from. Of course I know atheists who are just as suspicious of religious people. They worry about people who only do good because they are frightened of being punished otherwise by God, as opposed to doing good because it's the right thing.

It's a real fear though that uninformed people have of atheists. Some also think atheists worship the devil, which of course, makes no sense considering that whole, you know, not believing in that kind of stuff and everything.

Prejudice against atheism is one of the last prejudices that doesn't get checked, that people aren't held accountable for. It's . . . sad.
 
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Ruv Draba

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Good point. But aren't there some religions that acknowledge science, logic and equality?
Yes, including some sects of the monotheistic religions. But here's the thing...

One's faith is either tribal or rational. It can't be both.

Rationality and objectivity do not lend themselves to tribal religion, because tribes need to filter their truths to maintain their traditional beliefs, whereas in rationalism, beliefs follow the evidence. So those whose religion is more tribal tend to have a hard time coping with scientific advances. We see this in the kind of people who most like to challenge empirical results. They have a hard time arguing because it does their heads in to get educated and stay ignorant at the same time.

But there's no reason someone can't have strong faith and strong objectivity too. It just means that they see magic and wonder and good in a world that is also reasonable. Even if they believe in supreme truths, reason will tell them that they can't be sure that they have them exactly right.

The one religion can contain two sorts of people, but the holy texts tend to skew toward individualism or tribalism, depending on how they're written. The more supremacist the texts, the more tribal the followers tend to be... And the reverse is true too. The more tribal the faithful, the more supremacist the religious lore tends to get.
 

Salis

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OP:

Maybe he was trolling you.

Just sayin'. That's my default coping mechanism for when someone says something so stupid or offensive I stop in my tracks:

"Ah. Good troll. :D"