College and writing

freeman801 said:

So the question that runs around in my head is 'why go to school for English when your already writing?' or 'why go to school for anything when your doing the thing you want to do for the rest of your life?'.

Click to expand...

I think your answers may be in your question, Grasshopper.

Going to college and getting a degree in creative writing in most cases will not help your fiction.

Creative writing classes in many cases will not help your fiction.

What I would suggest is finding something -- possibly English, but probably not -- that you can study in college, that you have an aptitude for and enjoy or at least don't loathe -- that will lead to or otherwise support gainful employment.

Keep in mind that might be culinary arts, or stats, or computer programming or . . . .

Regarding English--at this point, for someone who is not in their teens or early twenties, who is not financially more than healthy--

I would not recommend it. There are right now far too many people with humanities degrees looking for work.

I would suggest that rather than a degree in creative writing, you might be better off looking at workshops -- there are a fair number of good ones.

Also, in broad terms, if you want to write fiction, creative writing classes won't help with genre fiction.

Well, you might consider going to school with a career goal in mind. Statistically, few writers make enough from their writing to support themselves, particularly early on. English/ Creative Writing is not a career, per se. And because there's quite a few people out there who major in those subjects,there is a lot of competition.

You might consider what job you would like to work (besides customer service) that would be enjoyable, financially beneficial, and still allow you-- in theory-- time to write. This would be what you might get your degree in.

You can talk with an advisor about some possibilities. I went into teaching as my bread and butter money while I work on my writing career. (There are, however, way too many English teachers out there, so job competition is fierce.) There are lots of other options-- depending on your interests and strengths.

ETA: Cross posted with Medievalist.

I suppose I'm the only one who feels benefited from studying creative writing. I've certainly learned a lot more about the process of writing than I did before I came to college.

It's hard to teach writing, and equally as hard to learn it from someone else. You get what you put into it. Enthusiasm will take you far, so will actually writing. The benefit of majoring in English, Lit, or Writing is that you will be reading and writing a lot. Of course, you can do all this on your own too.

There are a lot of jobs available to Lit majors if you're creative. I've networked with a lot of former Lit majors at my college who are all in very different jobs. One is an attorney, the other is an Acquisitions Editor, the other owns her own publishing company, another is the head of Marketing at Harrah's Casino.

Use your imagination and your communication and critical thinking skills that you pick up from your major and you'll land something.

Of course, like I said, enthusiasm goes far. I'm doing so well because reading and writing are the only things I'm interested in.

A lot of pragmatic people like to convince you that majoring in creative writing, or any Humanity, is a waste of time. I suppose those most successful at it are the less practical to begin with, and perhaps a little bit crazy. So you're in a good, select company if it's something you decide on.

If you are going to major in creative writing I would suggest ensuring you are attneding a college where this is productive. i.e. where faculty are accomplished and there is some degree of successful mentoring. If you could get a special project course where a published faculty member helped you refine and submit a novel, for example.

I'm 100% behind a college education. I think it's important for any number of reasons, and I do think really good creative writing classes and really good MFA programs can help you develop as a writer. I know beyond doubt that such classes helped me immensely.

Then again, journalism clases probably helped my writing even more, and at least journalism offers somewhat more in the way of career choices.

But whatever you major in, makes damned sure it's something you won't mind doing from nine to five for the next twenty years. Odds are that's exactly what you will be doing.

A career is a fine thing, but a job you hate is a damned fool way to spend your life, no matter how much it pays.

I always suggest finishing a 4-year degree; slowly is fine. Too many folks I know who never went or never finished regretted it later. I think there are many other obvious benefits as well, but man the regret I've seen. Apparently it can be very angst-inducing, so think about that

Cybernaught said:

There are a lot of jobs available to Lit majors if you're creative. I've networked with a lot of former Lit majors at my college who are all in very different jobs. One is an attorney, the other is an Acquisitions Editor, the other owns her own publishing company, another is the head of Marketing at Harrah's Casino.

Click to expand...

There are many occupations; there are not many jobs.

Cybernaught said:

Use your imagination and your communication and critical thinking skills that you pick up from your major and you'll land something.

Click to expand...

You're still in school, right?

Here's the thing:

The placement rate for 2009 undergraduate English majors is slightly better than foreign language majors, or history majors, but it's still less than 70% according to the MLA.

That's placement in ANY fulltime job.

I know the Chronicle of Higher Ed has more detailed data.

Cybernaught said:

Of course, like I said, enthusiasm goes far. I'm doing so well because reading and writing are the only things I'm interested in.

Click to expand...

I am a former Journalism student.

I do hold a BS in History (BS = no foreign language, BA = 9 hours foreign language . . .don't ask)

I have an AA in English. (Went back 25 years after I graduated to "warm up" before pursuing my Masters)

I hope to pursue a MA in either English or History (my current employer wants me to get a Masters because they can charge the gov. more if I have one. *grin*)

I prefer to get my MA in English because I'd like to do some Adjunct Faculty in English at the local CC. It would be a fun part-time job if I could get it. I used to be an instructor in the military and also used to sub. teach before I joined, so I know a lot about the podium. *grin*

I had applied for an MFA at one of the local universities, but I was discouraged by the staff because I'm a genre writer and they didn't think getting my MFA through them would help my writing. Also, I found it interesting that I would have had more professional credits than all but one of my instructors.

Medievalist said:

There are many occupations; there are not many jobs.



You're still in school, right?

Here's the thing:

The placement rate for 2009 undergraduate English majors is slightly better than foreign language majors, or history majors, but it's still less than 70% according to the MLA.

That's placement in ANY fulltime job.

I know the Chronicle of Higher Ed has more detailed data.

Click to expand...

This is all very insightful and accurate, I'm sure. But I'm not about to change my major or let my confidence be swayed because some schmoe on the internet told me that I'm wasting my time. I have a father for that, thank you. I'm sure you mean well, but I've come very far in my life to reach this point, and I'm not about to turn back now.

I'm planning on Grad School as well, which I'm sure is even more of a waste of time. But you know what, everything is a waste of time. Why major in anything you're interested in at all? Why not just go through your own life based on what other people say you should do? Why bother having a mind of your own? Why not embrace the negativity?

You are going to need a thicker skin at graduate school just to survive. No amount of confidence will make a job materialise unless you realise there is a shortage and take tangible steps to overcome it. That is, chose a school with better stats, specialised in a hot area, network, publish, and win friends and influence people. Start by not calling them schmoes. This forum is awash with people with degrees and they are telling it like it is.

I'm a junior in college, and I am majoring in English. However, I bypassed the Creative Writing minor, even though the department head at my university is a former Time magazine columnist and the author of eleven novels. I chose secondary education as a minor and a combined BA/MA program simply to be practical.

I'll be honest: I love being an English major, but I really don't know how it will help me in the future as a novelist. Yes, I am a much stronger academic writer because of my curriculum, but no, I don't think it'll make me a better storyteller than the guy with a degree in Chemical Engineering. As for creative writing: I'll be blunt. I know many people who took this path and were very dissatisfied with it. There are obvious pros, like feedback on your work, but in my opinion, this is a resource that can be found outside of the classroom. Honestly, I feel like joining Absolutewrite helped me improve as a writer more than any class could.

In her book on writing, Janet Evanovich says a creative writing or an English degree will not make you a better writer. This may not be true for everyone, since people learn in different ways.

Sorry I rambled and wasn't too helpful. My suggestion would be to try a class or two and see if you like it before enrolling in a program.

p.s. I know of several MFAs that do crank out successful novelists, but they are hellish difficult to get into for obvious reasons : /

veinglory said:

You are going to need a thicker skin at graduate school just to survive. No amount of confidence will make a job materialise unless you realise there is a shortage and take tangible steps to overcome it. That is, chose a school with better stats, specialised in a hot area, network, publish, and win friends and influence people. Start by not calling them schmoes. This forum is awash with people with degrees and they are telling it like it is.

Click to expand...

You're preaching to the converted here. I'm not counting on my degree, I'm counting on my talent, determination and creativity. I just don't have time for people "telling me like it is." I'm well aware of "how it is," and I'm quite content with the path I've chosen. You're not doing anyone any favors. Let people do what they want, and if they fail, then at least they can say they followed their convictions. No one can take that from you.

Cybernaught said:

I'm planning on Grad School as well, which I'm sure is even more of a waste of time. But you know what, everything is a waste of time. Why major in anything you're interested in at all? Why not just go through your own life based on what other people say you should do? Why bother having a mind of your own? Why not embrace the negativity?

Click to expand...

I have a B.A. in English, an M.A., in English, a second M.A. in English as part of earning my Ph.D. in English.

I'm a 2008 Ph.D. from a research I institution. I've served on the admission committees of three schools.

I would urge you to step back and think. Graduate school requires a very tough skin.

It is nothing at all like undergrad. Nothing.

The current placement rate is so bad that the Chronicle of Higher Education is advising grad schools to reduce their incoming classes by 80%.

There is even less financial support now than there was.

This isn't just me, either.

http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the-Huma/44846/

Cybernaught said:

You're preaching to the converted here. I'm not counting on my degree, I'm counting on my talent, determination and creativity. I just don't have time for people "telling me like it is." I'm well aware of "how it is," and I'm quite content with the path I've chosen. You're not doing anyone any favors. Let people do what they want, and if they fail, then at least they can say they followed their convictions. No one can take that from you.

Click to expand...

Right. OK.

Come back and post when you've taken your first set of quals please.

Medievalist said:

I have a B.A. in English, an M.A., in English, a second M.A. in English as part of earning my Ph.D. in English.

I'm a 2008 Ph.D. from a research I institution. I've served on the admission committees of three schools.

I would urge you to step back and think. Graduate school requires a very tough skin.

It is nothing at all like undergrad. Nothing.

The current placement rate is so bad that the Chronicle of Higher Education is advising grad schools to reduce their incoming classes by 80%.

There is even less financial support now than there was.

This isn't just me, either.

http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the-Huma/44846/

Click to expand...

That's nice, thank you.

Medievalist said:

Right. OK.

Come back and post when you've taken your first set of quals please.

Click to expand...

I'm sure I'll be doing more important things by that time. I don't need to prove anything to an elitist, self-righteous internet jerk. I know you're older than me and have more experience, but I'm not about to let anyone tell me I can't be who I want to be. You have no clue who I am.

Cybernaught said:

I'm sure I'll be doing more important things by that time. I don't need to prove anything to an elitist, self-righteous internet jerk. I know you're older than me and have more experience, but I'm not about to let anyone tell me I can't be who I want to be. You have no clue who I am.

Click to expand...

Wow...

I'm not sure why, but this thread keeps coming to mind... http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163863

freeman801 said:

But it worth it to you? So far?

That is what I am wondering. For the past four years each time a new semester rolls around that question in my head rolls around with it.

Is it worth it to me? And right now, I can't tell. That is what is bothering me. Sure some classes were fun and I learned a lot, but I could of done that on my own.

So before I settle down for the last two years of school, I want to know if it is worth spending so much time and money on.

I want to know that five, ten, twenty years down the line I'll be looking back at college and then where I'm at in life and say "I'm so glad I spent all those long hours studying and all those longs house working to pay tuition. It was all worth it."

I'm sure this is something only I can answer, but I just wanted peoples experiences So far you have given me a lot to think about!

Click to expand...

Freeman,

Worth it?

From a strictly monetary perspective, no.

I'm already working full time as a technical writer and doing some professional writing on the side. (I'd like to reverse that one of these days, but that's another thread.)

However, I want to pursue my Masters because a) I like going to college . . . I like learning new stuff, b) my company will pay up to $5000 a year toward tuition and c) there's a good chance I'll get a promotion if I do it.

So, yeah, from a personal development kind of worth, then yes, to me it's worth going back to school.

i studied nothing in college.