Is this illness frightening enough?

KiraOnWhite · Nov 29, 2009

Hey everyone, I would like some feedback on this fictional illness my story is based on. It's not necessarily caused by a disease. There are no visible symptomps, not even decay, thus making it impossible to tract. I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in this verse, cheap surgery has a large success rate and the biology of the species makes it such that the immunity system is much stronger than real humans.

Anyway, the illness causes one's limbs to be useless and detach itself from the person without any warning. The process is painless and this illness can inflict all persons and animals, hence it may lead to extinction. There is a possibility that this illness is psychological and the story's main characters belong to an organization dedicated to finding the cure to this illness and doing damage control.

Please do point out any contradictions and plotholes, as this will the basis of the entire series and if there's a fatal hole I probably couldn't continue with the plot at all

.

kaitie · Nov 29, 2009

Unless you meant it in a Kafka, mostly metaphorical sense, I don't think it works. First, such an illness would almost certainly be painful and horrifying. Even if it somehow destroyed nerve endings so no pain was felt, I can't imagine someone's arms and legs just detaching the way a lizard's tail would. The most realistic scenario I can think of would be more similar to a MSRA infection (did I get that acronym right?)--essentially flesh-eating bacteria that destroy the tissue to the point that it dies, turns black, and has to be removed. And it ain't pretty. Do a google image search if you don't believe me. It's also incredibly deadly and disfiguring. I know you're going for a fictional illness, but it would have to be an infection, and said infection would most likely spread from a centralized location and kill people if it spread too far.

As for it being psychological, the biggest problem I see is that no amount of psychological discomfort can make someone have that type of physical reaction. Passing out, nausea, headaches, even muscle or body aches would be realistic and are well documented. However, you're talking about a very physical reaction. I suppose you could look up something like Morgellons Disease, which some people believe may be psychological, but chances are there is a real physical problem going on. Most controversial diseases scientists believe might be psychological are things like chronic fatigue syndrome--symptoms that the patient feels but that the doctor can't necessarily observe.

Second, why would a psychological disorder kill an animal? Even if there was some kind of mass hysteria and people started believing they were sick with some strange illness, that wouldn't affect animal life.

Anyway, the only way I can really see it working is to either radically change the disease. Look up deadliest diseases and see what some of the symptoms are. Most are somewhat difficult to contract and face isolated outbreaks. If you want to do something really bizarre like someone's limbs falling off, you would have to do it almost more of a satire or surrealist sense, which would be incredibly hard to manage.

Rarri · Nov 29, 2009

KiraOnWhite said:
Hey everyone, I would like some feedback on this fictional illness my story is based on. It's not necessarily caused by a disease. There are no visible symptomps, not even decay, thus making it impossible to tract. I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in this verse, cheap surgery has a large success rate and the biology of the species makes it such that the immunity system is much stronger than real humans.

Anyway, the illness causes one's limbs to be useless and detach itself from the person without any warning. The process is painless and this illness can inflict all persons and animals, hence it may lead to extinction. There is a possibility that this illness is psychological and the story's main characters belong to an organization dedicated to finding the cure to this illness and doing damage control.

Please do point out any contradictions and plotholes, as this will the basis of the entire series and if there's a fatal hole I probably couldn't continue with the plot at all .

Having hard to detect symptoms isn't impossible, there are diseases which behave in that way or will lie dormant for years. A limb wouldn't just fall off though; as Kaitie said, that's reptilian territory. A limb could become useless through paralysis though and perhaps atrophy, but it still isn't going to fall off. I don't see how this could be psychosomatic either; the mind has yet to be capable of physical necrosis, as far as i'm aware.

I think you probably could make this work, but look up diseases and illnesses that do lie dormant, have few symptoms and may cause limb loss, then you may find yourself able to create a more suitable illness.

KiraOnWhite · Nov 29, 2009

You are absolutely right about the animal part >_< Would it work if they're were-animals capable of minimal human thought?

Would it help if the story is an Urban Fantasy? In the story, there is a single species whose trademark attribute is being able to detach their limbs and reattach a new one (provided the person the new limb attached to have the same blood type). When the illness affects them, they can't do this anymore.

The science is also vastly different and there is a magical element to it. Basically, the basis for the creations of all species including humans are made from the reactions of this substance present in the surroundings. Physically,it appears like strands holding the parts of the bodies together. I was thinking like the disease causes the strands to break off and leave the body without an apparent reason. As this substance is the catalyst to the creation for everything in this verse, without it there is complete organ failure, hence the painless effect.

The illness has a psychological effect as the magic system also uses this substance, being able to control the substance present in the surroundings through language and thoughts. Though only certain languages are suitable to use this system, it is a possibility that people are subconsciously using it, thus leading to the illness.

Thanks for reviewing the contradictions!

KiraOnWhite · Nov 29, 2009

Rarri said:
Having hard to detect symptoms isn't impossible, there are diseases which behave in that way or will lie dormant for years. A limb wouldn't just fall off though; as Kaitie said, that's reptilian territory. A limb could become useless through paralysis though and perhaps atrophy, but it still isn't going to fall off. I don't see how this could be psychosomatic either; the mind has yet to be capable of physical necrosis, as far as i'm aware.

I think you probably could make this work, but look up diseases and illnesses that do lie dormant, have few symptoms and may cause limb loss, then you may find yourself able to create a more suitable illness.

Would it be justifiable if in this verse that technology is not actively developed towards studying microscopic elements of the body? As cheap surgery has a large success rate, the focus will then be actively using it to break physical limitations.

kaitie · Nov 29, 2009

I think I'm missing something. If I understand you right, the idea is basically there is no way of knowing whether or not the person is suck until their limbs start falling off, right? I'm quite sure I understand how the surgery aspect fits in. If it's something like a staph infection and it's completely obvious that the person has it, it makes sense to do surgery to try to remove the dead tissue. I'm just wondering how they know to do surgery if there are no symptoms, and what kind of surgery it is. Also, why surgery would work if they think it's psychological, but that could be a placebo effect thing so that's no biggie.

kaitie · Nov 29, 2009

KiraOnWhite said:
You are absolutely right about the animal part >_< Would it work if they're were-animals capable of minimal human thought?

Would it help if the story is an Urban Fantasy? In the story, there is a single species whose trademark attribute is being able to detach their limbs and reattach a new one (provided the person the new limb attached to have the same blood type). When the illness affects them, they can't do this anymore.

The science is also vastly different and there is a magical element to it. Basically, the basis for the creations of all species including humans are made from the reactions of this substance present in the surroundings. Physically,it appears like strands holding the parts of the bodies together. I was thinking like the disease causes the strands to break off and leave the body without an apparent reason. As this substance is the catalyst to the creation for everything in this verse, without it there is complete organ failure, hence the painless effect.

The illness has a psychological effect as the magic system also uses this substance, being able to control the substance present in the surroundings through language and thoughts. Though only certain languages are suitable to use this system, it is a possibility that people are subconsciously using it, thus leading to the illness.

Thanks for reviewing the contradictions!

If you're writing a fantasy you can say all animals have a certain degree of human thought, but what you're describing sounds more like straight-up fantasy to me than urban fantasy, which has a stronger basis in the "real" world.

I'm trying to see if I understand so bear with me. What's the purpose of having a group of people who can have their limbs replaced? Is that the main point of the story? I don't really get why this is necessary or how this disease would prevent it. I have an easier time with saying science has developed technologies such to allow for easy transplantation of limbs (they're already doing it) and if you want to have something go wrong with that, maybe the bodies are for some reason rejecting them despite the technological gains.

Actually...can you just give a basic plot summary in general? That would probably help more than anything. I can't figure out how any of this links together and it's hard to offer suggestions on something that could work when I don't understand the purpose.

KiraOnWhite · Nov 29, 2009

kaitie said:
I think I'm missing something. If I understand you right, the idea is basically there is no way of knowing whether or not the person is suck until their limbs start falling off, right? I'm quite sure I understand how the surgery aspect fits in. If it's something like a staph infection and it's completely obvious that the person has it, it makes sense to do surgery to try to remove the dead tissue. I'm just wondering how they know to do surgery if there are no symptoms, and what kind of surgery it is. Also, why surgery would work if they think it's psychological, but that could be a placebo effect thing so that's no biggie.

In the story, the psychological cause is only a possibility. The problem with the illness is that the body sort of 'dies' in large parts. The illness doesn't start with an infection in which where the illness starts is obvious. The cheap surgery I'm talking about is more of shoving foreign elements in bodies. In real life, this won't be possible since the body will reject it but due to the nature in which everything is made, this is possible in the fictional world.

KiraOnWhite · Nov 29, 2009

kaitie said:
If you're writing a fantasy you can say all animals have a certain degree of human thought, but what you're describing sounds more like straight-up fantasy to me than urban fantasy, which has a stronger basis in the "real" world.

I'm trying to see if I understand so bear with me. What's the purpose of having a group of people who can have their limbs replaced? Is that the main point of the story? I don't really get why this is necessary or how this disease would prevent it. I have an easier time with saying science has developed technologies such to allow for easy transplantation of limbs (they're already doing it) and if you want to have something go wrong with that, maybe the bodies are for some reason rejecting them despite the technological gains.

Actually...can you just give a basic plot summary in general? That would probably help more than anything. I can't figure out how any of this links together and it's hard to offer suggestions on something that could work when I don't understand the purpose.

I thought Urban Fantasy is fantasy in a modern setting, pardon me if I'm wrong >_< Plus my story has the whole vampires and other non-human species coexisting in modern society, so yeah.

The species with this ability is not human and it goes to show that the illness affects everyone in this verse. However, they cannot do the whole organ transplant thing as casually as they can with whole limbs but with the illness, is like the muscles, nerves and everything of the limb becomes completely useless. So in a sense, it isn't really a part of one's body anymore? (hope this doesn't sound confusing >_<)

Forgive me if the plot sounds incoherent, I'm trying to get help on the worldbuilding first to avoid fatal holes in the story so I haven't really worked on the plotting. Basically it's like this:

A few years after the widespread impact of the illness, the story's main organization is formed, dedicated to both finding the cure and doing post-illness damage control. They generally believe that the cure is related to the magic system and use it as a basis to find out how to truly 're-construct' all species, as the illness' main cause is the substance of what everyone is made of. However, this contradicts with the previous fixation of physical adjustments, so they have to find away to work around it.

The path to finding the cure involves explorations of in-verse mythology and urban legends, but that's another aspect altogether.

kaitie · Nov 29, 2009

KiraOnWhite said:
I thought Urban Fantasy is fantasy in a modern setting, pardon me if I'm wrong >_< Plus my story has the whole vampires and other non-human species coexisting in modern society, so yeah.

The species with this ability is not human and it goes to show that the illness affects everyone in this verse. However, they cannot do the whole organ transplant thing as casually as they can with whole limbs but with the illness, is like the muscles, nerves and everything of the limb becomes completely useless. So in a sense, it isn't really a part of one's body anymore? (hope this doesn't sound confusing >_<)

Forgive me if the plot sounds incoherent, I'm trying to get help on the worldbuilding first to avoid fatal holes in the story so I haven't really worked on the plotting. Basically it's like this:

A few years after the widespread impact of the illness, the story's main organization is formed, dedicated to both finding the cure and doing post-illness damage control. They generally believe that the cure is related to the magic system and use it as a basis to find out how to truly 're-construct' all species, as the illness' main cause is the substance of what everyone is made of. However, this contradicts with the previous fixation of physical adjustments, so they have to find away to work around it.

The path to finding the cure involves explorations of in-verse mythology and urban legends, but that's another aspect altogether.

I could also be wrong about urban fantasy. I was basing it on the few I've read, I've never looked up a definition. Anyway...hm...I'm going to have to think about this. I'll get back to you lol. Someone else will probably have an awesome idea in the meantime.

KiraOnWhite · Nov 29, 2009

Thanks for your help! ^_^

Keyan · Nov 29, 2009

KiraOnWhite said:
Anyway, the illness causes one's limbs to be useless and detach itself from the person without any warning. The process is painless and this illness can inflict all persons and animals, hence it may lead to extinction. There is a possibility that this illness is psychological and the story's main characters belong to an organization dedicated to finding the cure to this illness and doing damage control.

Please do point out any contradictions and plotholes, as this will the basis of the entire series and if there's a fatal hole I probably couldn't continue with the plot at all .

I think you could go for a fantastical variant of leprosy (Hansen's disease). It isn't painful, though it is visible. It causes numbness owing to nerve damage, and eventually body-parts like fingers and toes do "drop off" largely because, having no feeling, they are difficult to protect. One of the characteristics of untreated Hansen's disease is exactly that.

So if you had an invisible variant of leprosy (no external symptoms), it would show mainly as a person (or animal) becoming increasingly clumsy since they would have numb extremities. And if it was very rapid-onset (say the infective agent lies dormant for years, and becomes active overnight) you actually could have a situation where a person goes from being well to being fatally ill.

If this is a fantasy, then you could import the lizard-tail thing into your story (these aren't humans, or are they?). Perhaps it's an immune-system response to certain diseases - auto-amputation. Get rid of a limb before a fatal infection spreads into the rest of the body.

KiraOnWhite · Nov 29, 2009

Auto-amputation is the perfect description =D Thanks for your help, I'll look more into lizards and into Hansen's disease.

GeorgeK · Nov 29, 2009

Basically what you are asking for is a disease that catalyzes autoamputation, and yes they exist. Anything that results in sepsis or severe hypotension can lead to that. Probably the most horrific thing I've ever seen was a woman who did die in parts. When her abdominal wall fell off and she was mouthing, "Turn it all off!" around her respirator, we finally talked the attendings into stopping the heroic measures.

KiraOnWhite · Nov 29, 2009

I'm thinking like the non-painful aspect can make it more frightening...like you know you're dieing but you can't feel it.

GeorgeK · Nov 29, 2009

KiraOnWhite said:
I'm thinking like the non-painful aspect can make it more frightening...like you know you're dieing but you can't feel it.

Personally I consider it a gift from God that many diseases do seem to turn off one's perception of pain. Sepsis does a good job of instilling extreme apathy in the victim. Of course a septic person isn't going to be walking around and say, "Oh, look at that! My arm just fell off!" They'll instead be laying in the corner saying, "Meh."

I've seen many septic patients and as a rule, the one's that didn't frighten me were the one's who were pissed off. It was always the apathetic who were the hardest to save.

backslashbaby · Nov 29, 2009

That is pretty terrifying. I've had nightmares like that, and it is worse if you don't expect it to happen (in dreams at least

).

Ms Hollands · Nov 29, 2009

Sounds a bit like St Anthony's Fire which would cause limbs to fall off after eating bread made with a certain mould on the grains. It's a form of gangreen. Sufferrers would feel a burning sensation, then go numb, then watch their limbs drop off. No idea how long the burning sensation or numbness lasts, but perhaps it's worth looking up for details.

Wiskel · Nov 29, 2009

I think your biggest challenge is that you're using biology that isn't even remotely like the biology we know. The amount of exposition you're going to have to do to stop the reader becoming lost is enormous....especially if you mix a truely alien biology and human terms like "blood group"

The building block of life as we know it is a cell. Every cell has to have a way of getting nutrients and oxygen and we do that via the blood supply. If you tried to transplant a human limb the main task would be making sure the blood supply was intact to the new limb. If that's wrong then the limb will get gangrenous quickly. Our limits right now are based around the fact that damaged nerves are close to impossible to repair and movement and sensation need healthy nerves.

You need to understand a little basic biology and then define what is unique about your species. Any species that can detach and reattach limbs either has a way of healing blood vessels and nerves that humans definately don't have....or they don't have blood vessels and nerves. They also have hardier cells. A human cell doesn't last very long without oxygen unless it is very cold....but freezing it tends to damage it.

You have to know what your magical substance does. It might carry the nutrients and oxygen. It might be responsible for the immune response. It might even conduct the impulses and replace nerves.

It sounds like your basic biology is a bit rusty. For example, you say donors need to be the same blood type. This shows that you understand about rejection but don't know that there are numerous antigens that cause it and that blood type would be almost irrelevant to human transplantation......it will be antigens (protein markers) on the cells that determine if the host rejects it and blood cells have different proteins than most of the others.

It's almost impossible to say whether your idea has plot holes until you've thought out your biology. It would be really useful research to get yourself a textbook on human biology or basic physiology (if you already understand biology) and make your first task understanding how the biology of your species differs from human.

Craig

KiraOnWhite · Nov 29, 2009

Wiskel said:
I think your biggest challenge is that you're using biology that isn't even remotely like the biology we know. The amount of exposition you're going to have to do to stop the reader becoming lost is enormous....especially if you mix a truely alien biology and human terms like "blood group"

The building block of life as we know it is a cell. Every cell has to have a way of getting nutrients and oxygen and we do that via the blood supply. If you tried to transplant a human limb the main task would be making sure the blood supply was intact to the new limb. If that's wrong then the limb will get gangrenous quickly. Our limits right now are based around the fact that damaged nerves are close to impossible to repair and movement and sensation need healthy nerves.

You need to understand a little basic biology and then define what is unique about your species. Any species that can detach and reattach limbs either has a way of healing blood vessels and nerves that humans definately don't have....or they don't have blood vessels and nerves. They also have hardier cells. A human cell doesn't last very long without oxygen unless it is very cold....but freezing it tends to damage it.

You have to know what your magical substance does. It might carry the nutrients and oxygen. It might be responsible for the immune response. It might even conduct the impulses and replace nerves.

It sounds like your basic biology is a bit rusty. For example, you say donors need to be the same blood type. This shows that you understand about rejection but don't know that there are numerous antigens that cause it and that blood type would be almost irrelevant to human transplantation......it will be antigens (protein markers) on the cells that determine if the host rejects it and blood cells have different proteins than most of the others.

It's almost impossible to say whether your idea has plot holes until you've thought out your biology. It would be really useful research to get yourself a textbook on human biology or basic physiology (if you already understand biology) and make your first task understanding how the biology of your species differs from human.

Craig

You're right about my rusty biology...I didn't really study it in depth and I'm afraid I'll end up being more confusing if I put a heavy emphasis on it >_< I'll look up more about nerves and organ transplantation, nevertheless, thanks for the handy science info!

Would it be less confusing if I do put in exposition on the magic system? Since I'm not really going into detail with it like a sci-fi, now I'm wondering how much should I rely on the suspension of disbelief. I hear that sometimes putting in loads of science stuff will make it worse and readers can tolerate things that are not too contradicting, like humans breathing carbon dioxide.

Wiskel · Nov 29, 2009

KiraOnWhite said:
Would it be less confusing if I do put in exposition on the magic system? Since I'm not really going into detail with it like a sci-fi, now I'm wondering how much should I rely on the suspension of disbelief. I hear that sometimes putting in loads of science stuff will make it worse and readers can tolerate things that are not too contradicting, like humans breathing carbon dioxide.

I wasn't suggesting you needed to explain it in detail, but this is one of those areas where it needs to be straight in your own mind. One of your problems with sci-fi is that readers often have a basic grasp of science.

Using the same example as before.

"Transplantation works if the donor of an arm and the host have the same blood group" is using established concepts in a way that will cause anyone who knows the field to drop out of the scene and question the science.....because your science geek has just enough knowledge to know that wouldn't work in humans.

However

"Transplantion works if the donor of an arm and the host are compatible" is fine. Nothing to see there. Jazz it up if you like. Some have blue blood, some have purple, others have green, and if they have the same colour blood then it's fine. You've created something totally alien so the reader won't question it so much.

Same with your surgery idea. As Kaitie says, if you use the word "surgery" then you're using a shortcut that plants a concept in the reader's mind. You need to know what the procedure is and why it works. You're trying to avoid "star trek" jargon where the surgeon puts a new Mc-fixit 2000 into the shoulder to fix the imbalance of the magicgoo and prevent arm-drop-offitis.

Science in a fantasy setting can be whatever you like so long as it has some internal logic and makes sense to you.

Craig

Kalyke · Nov 29, 2009

KiraOnWhite said:
Please do point out any contradictions and plotholes, as this will the basis of the entire series and if there's a fatal hole I probably couldn't continue with the plot at all .

Then why ask for opinions?

My opinion is it is really kind of impossible. How would "llosing limbs" have much to do with "having babies?" A one legged man can perform admirably in the bed department. Sooner or later you will get those with a natural immunity to the disease. The only real way extinction can happen is to narrow the genetic pool.

Also, limbs do not fall off. It is not like they are jointed like a GI Joe doll. If the arm falls off, all the flesh needs to fall off. Why does it just attack the limbs. What about the torso, the head, etc. All you really need is a necrotizing super virus (maybe filled with recumbent RNA) You would not get to pick and choose what parts of the body fall off (or out).

KiraOnWhite · Nov 30, 2009

Wiskel said:
"Transplantion works if the donor of an arm and the host are compatible" is fine. Nothing to see there. Jazz it up if you like. Some have blue blood, some have purple, others have green, and if they have the same colour blood then it's fine. You've created something totally alien so the reader won't question it so much.

Thanks for this example! I'll use it as a guideline when expanding upon it.

KiraOnWhite · Nov 30, 2009

Use Her Name said:
Then why ask for opinions?

My opinion is it is really kind of impossible. How would "llosing limbs" have much to do with "having babies?" A one legged man can perform admirably in the bed department. Sooner or later you will get those with a natural immunity to the disease. The only real way extinction can happen is to narrow the genetic pool.

Also, limbs do not fall off. It is not like they are jointed like a GI Joe doll. If the arm falls off, all the flesh needs to fall off. Why does it just attack the limbs. What about the torso, the head, etc. All you really need is a necrotizing super virus (maybe filled with recumbent RNA) You would not get to pick and choose what parts of the body fall off (or out).

Reason I'm asking is because the whole plot starts off from this illness...I was worrying whether it's enough to bring about widespread chaos. Basically, I just want to make sure if this idea is too lame or too illogical for any plot to ride on >_<.

Would it be more plausible if the illness happens at a rapid pace? I also happen to have a species that is born limb by limb and the limbs are only joined to the torso and head (as one piece) after birth. With the illness, the babies' other limbs are dead at birth and so the torso dies quickly, resulting in a higher infant mortality rate. ( This is really a fantastical element, I can't really explain this scientifically). The vampires in this story's main diet is living things and with living things dieing left and right, it will result in starvation in a lot of areas. In retrospect, extinction does sound too drastic, I think I'll just write it instead as massive hysteria.

Well, basically the idea is that the limbs are like parts of a doll. This relies on the suspension of disbelief and as I am not really developing things from the scientific angle, I hope this won't be too off-putting.

Cyia · Nov 30, 2009

Serious question - can their heads fall off, too?

If can affect the head/brain, it could affect the hormones, etc.

Is this illness frightening enough?

KiraOnWhite

kaitie

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Rarri

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kaitie

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Keyan

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GeorgeK

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Wiskel

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Kalyke

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Is this illness frightening enough?

With great power comes

With great power comes

With great power comes

With great power comes

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practical experience, FTW

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