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LOG
11-16-2009, 08:50 AM
Is there a piece of literature or some other influence that can be pinpointed for being the start or origin of having the/a protagonist having a relationship with an antagonist? Or vice-versa?
I was just wondering after I read D. Gray Man again.

LOG
11-17-2009, 02:26 AM
bump

Matera the Mad
11-17-2009, 05:10 AM
Stockholm syndrome? (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=Stockholm%20syndrome)

IceCreamEmpress
11-17-2009, 07:06 AM
I don't know what you mean, exactly. Could you expand on that? Give an example or two?

The trope of "people fight all the time, must mean they're in love" is as old as Shakespeare's Beatrice and Benedict.

LOG
11-17-2009, 07:50 AM
Stockholm syndrome? (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=Stockholm%20syndrome)
Interesting idea.

Examples:
Lanfear in the WoT and her obsession with Rand, she kept her obsession with Rand/Lews Therin for quite some time.
Crysania Tarinius from Dragonlance, not quite love, but she was obsessed with 'redeeming' Raistlin, even though he deliberately manipulated her several times, and she never succeeded.

I'll try to think of some more specific examples.

LOG
11-18-2009, 08:15 AM
In the same vein, Conan has quite a few contentious relationships with the main females, evil or semi-evil. Karela the Red Hawk from Robert Jordan version comes to mind. Also a few of similar relations in some other versions. A female bandit from the Conan universe, can't remember her name, Conan split some sort of giant red plant/flesh orb with her once. She's in service to a witch.

Although those are really just physical attractions, I'm thinking more like a person who is the antagonist, or related closely to them somehow. And they are, or feel that they are, in love with the protagonist, or a relation of the protagonist.

LOG
11-19-2009, 09:07 AM
/bump

Judg
11-19-2009, 09:29 AM
I can't think of any examples myself (maybe because my brain has already gone to bed), and I haven't read any of the ones you've cited. But seeing as inappropriate loves are a pretty common human experience, it just doesn't seem all that surprising that it makes it into books.

Oh wait, how about Wuthering Heights? I doubt that was the first example, mind you, but at least it puts it back a ways.

blacbird
11-19-2009, 11:51 AM
Samson and Delilah.

Or maybe, earlier, Adam and Eve.

caw

LOG
11-20-2009, 01:23 AM
Samson and Delilah.

Or maybe, earlier, Adam and Eve.

caw
S & D, not quite what I meant.
Adam and Eve...I don't see any relation to my question...


Never read Wuthering Heights, hope I never do.

Kate Thornton
11-20-2009, 01:41 AM
Never read Wuthering Heights, hope I never do.

If you've missed reading the Brontes, then you've missed some of the most subtle and yet dramatic writing in the English language. If you write anything with action, despair, or fear going on in it, then you owe it to yourself to read Wuthering Heights at the very least, but Jane Eyre and The Tenant of Wildfell Hall would do you well, too.

Gothic Romance is after all the parent of sword and sorcery, and the Brontes did Gothic Romance like none others. In fact, you may have missed the beginnings of "antagonistic romance" right there, although we will probably get an argument from the Jane Austen clique regarding Pride & Prejudice on that score - another one I'd guess you haven't read, but the story is so compelling, I would certainly recommend it to you.

And if you're going to read Jane Austen, go for the heavy Gothic and fun, fun, fun in Northanger Abbey.

These books might seem like they are out of your genre, but so many literay devices and sound ideas are trans-genre. So if you are looking for the roots of a romantic device, I recommend digging in the fields of the Romantic writers.

MGraybosch
11-20-2009, 01:44 AM
Never read Wuthering Heights, hope I never do.

That's a bit close-minded, don't you think? Also, Kate Thornton has a point.

geardrops
11-20-2009, 01:55 AM
Wuthering Heights, etc, isn't for everyone. Personally, I can't stand that style of writing. I've attempted WH, I've read Jane Eyre (which I almost liked), and frankly if I don't read anything of that style again, I won't feel like I've missed anything.

(But, I did at least try.)

Kate Thornton
11-20-2009, 02:04 AM
Kudos to you, dempsey, for trying. I know it's not for everyone, and neither is Shakespeare, Tolkein, or Carl Hiassen, but I think you gotta be familiar with writers and writing (all styles) if you wanna be one.

Shadow_Ferret
11-20-2009, 02:12 AM
Gothic Romance is after all the parent of sword and sorcery, and the Brontes did Gothic Romance like none others.

Really? I LOVE Sword and Sorcery! So this Wuthering Heights, it's full of wizards and demons and sword fights?

MGraybosch
11-20-2009, 02:15 AM
Really? I LOVE Sword and Sorcery! So this Wuthering Heights, it's full of wizards and demons and sword fights?

Yes, and the hero is a big orange cat.

Shadow_Ferret
11-20-2009, 02:17 AM
Oh. That Garfield? Bah.

suki
11-20-2009, 02:24 AM
Is there a piece of literature or some other influence that can be pinpointed for being the start or origin of having the/a protagonist having a relationship with an antagonist? Or vice-versa?
I was just wondering after I read D. Gray Man again.

Pretty much old as time, I think. But the oldest example I can think of off the top of my head is Shakespeare - The Taming of the Shrew - though I'm sure the concept of that thin line between love and hate predates even Shakespeare.


~suki

LOG
11-21-2009, 12:39 AM
If you've missed reading the Brontes, then you've missed some of the most subtle and yet dramatic writing in the English language. If you write anything with action, despair, or fear going on in it, then you owe it to yourself to read Wuthering Heights at the very least, but Jane Eyre and The Tenant of Wildfell Hall would do you well, too.
...
These books might seem like they are out of your genre, but so many literay devices and sound ideas are trans-genre. So if you are looking for the roots of a romantic device, I recommend digging in the fields of the Romantic writers.
I used to be able to stand reading non-fiction, even some non-fiction romance.
Then I had to read Sister Carrie for a class...my hatred for non-fiction is at an all time high at the moment, how people condsider that book a classic is beyond my comprehension... >.>
-----------------------------
Old as time is probably as good as I'm going to get. Still, I'm curious, although maybe it was born out of the idea of someone just being obsessively in love with another person and it was just translated into literature.
It's not done very well most of the time(obsessive love, that is) my favorites are Ryoko and Tenchi from Tenchi Muyo and Lanfear and Rand, although Lanfear gets over it.

IceCreamEmpress
11-21-2009, 05:25 AM
Then I had to read Sister Carrie for a class...my hatred for non-fiction is at an all time high at the moment

Sister Carrie is fiction.

"Non-fiction" is about stuff that actually occurred, like a biography of Abraham Lincoln.

Canotila
11-21-2009, 05:35 AM
Is there a piece of literature or some other influence that can be pinpointed for being the start or origin of having the/a protagonist having a relationship with an antagonist? Or vice-versa?
I was just wondering after I read D. Gray Man again.

In The Odyssey Odysseus slept with both Calypso and Circe. I don't know how much that counts as a relationship, since it was kind of just the goddesses demanding it and him not really having much recourse to refuse. Though, I'm not sure how much he really wanted to refuse...

Maybe someone else with a better memory will know.

IceCreamEmpress
11-21-2009, 06:01 AM
Yes, I wouldn't count the Odysseus stuff as 'love' so much, but the legend of Theseus and Hippolyta definitely qualifies (at least the version where Theseus and Heracles defeat Hippolyta and her Amazons in battle, Theseus marries Hippolyta, and she is heartbroken when he dumps her for Phaedra).

So, yeah, thousands of years old.

The Lonely One
11-21-2009, 06:03 AM
I'm sorry I can't think of an older example but a modern one (about Stockholm Syndrome) is "The Effect of Living Backwards" by Heidi Julavits.

LOG
11-21-2009, 09:50 AM
Sister Carrie is fiction.

"Non-fiction" is about stuff that actually occurred, like a biography of Abraham Lincoln.
Sorry, slip of mind.
I don't like realistic fiction(set in the real world), or what people call realistic fiction.