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bylinebree
11-14-2009, 11:05 PM
I'm trying to research rugby. Am American and have no personal experience with it. Have watched a few games on TV (we don't get many and when we do, they are usually at 3AM!!) It's an amazing game : - )

But I'm having trouble with terms and such, especially from a coach's POV.

The hero is a former ivy-league college rugby player, something of a 'star' on the team. He scored a lot - now serves as a co-coach on the team (as a favor to someone).

How would they describe his stellar career, using what terms? What kinds of things would he be able to do as a part-time co-coach, helping out regularly?

Any help is very appreciated!

Rarri
11-14-2009, 11:23 PM
Super useful answer ... er, i'm not sure. What i was going to say though, was that there are two types of rugby: league and union, so it might be worth figuring out which type your character plays before doing further research.

bylinebree
11-14-2009, 11:30 PM
It was collegiate, so wouldn't it be league? The university is a small, ivy-league type (fictional but based on an American northeastern one).

Thank : - )

Mr Flibble
11-14-2009, 11:45 PM
Could be either, depending on the uni tbh. Oxford and Cambridge for example have Union teams

As for describing his career, it depends what position he played.

ETA: glossaries (http://www.utrugby.com/resources/Rugby%20terms%20for%20Dummies.pdf) of rugby (http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/s103/st8020.php) terms (http://guide.rugbyrugby.com/Rugby%20Sections/Beginners%20Guide/Rugby%20Lingo.asp)

waylander
11-15-2009, 02:37 AM
Either he scored x tries or he scored y points. Depends on whether he was the regular penalty kicker for his team.
It is perfectly possible to have a distinguished career and have scored very few points if, for example, you played in the scrum you would get far fewer scoring opportunities than say the full back or fly half.
Is he a large gentleman with cauliflower ears? If so he played in the pack

bylinebree
11-15-2009, 04:03 AM
He's modeled a little, physically and rugby-wise, after Dan Carter of the Blacks. Definitely not huge and cauliflower-eared. Fast. Strategic. He did some kicking, yes.

The school team is modeled after Boston College in America.

So what would he work on in practice with the players, if he is a former fly-back?

Can you recommend a decent online source?

Izz
11-15-2009, 04:04 AM
It was collegiate, so wouldn't it be league? The university is a small, ivy-league type (fictional but based on an American northeastern one).

Thank : - )Most likely Rugby Union, actually. Rugby League and Rugby Union are two completely different games. Rugby League hardly has a footprint in the USA yet, so it's very unlikely to be that.

Was your player a forward or a back? As far as coaching goes, if he was a forward it would be an easier transition to become a forwards coach. Or he could help coaching the players who specifically play in the position he used to. Each position (especially in the forward pack, but also in the backs) in Rugby Union is very specialized. A hooker (and yes, that is the correct term :D) plays a very different role to a loose forward or a lock or a prop.

If he played in the backs, which is probably more likely given your description (backs score the majority of the points, and are generally seen as the star players--more style and flash to a back than a forward, usually) he could assist as a backs coach or, again, help with the players who are playing in the position he occupied.

Typically, the players with the most star power are first-fives, fullbacks and wingers.

First-fives need to control the game tactically and react to situations intuitively. They direct their backline and take care of a lot of the tactical kicking. If you want to research two current first-fives who are both regarded highly, but are very different players, i would suggest researching Dan Carter (All Blacks) and Jonny Wilkinson (England).

Fullbacks are the last line of defense. They need to patrol their half of the field well, situation themselves and their wingers in the best positions to receive opposition kicks and then need to make the right decisions on counter-attack (to kick or run--if run, to go alone, or use the wingers). They can also inject themselves into a backline move to devastating effect. One of the best fullbacks in my recent memory was Christian Cullen (All Blacks).

Wingers are try-scoring machines, who need to be able to finish off moves, and usually have pace as well as exceptional attacking flair. Think Jonah Lomu (All Blacks), probably the most potent attacking winger the game has seen. What he lacked in defensive ability he made up for by being able to run over the top of people. Currently, one of the most highly regarded wingers in the world is Bryan Habana (South Africa) who is amazingly fast and has a nose for intercepts.

If you can, i would suggest finding international games to watch. Currently South Africa, New Zealand (All Blacks) and Australia are touring the Northern Hemisphere, so if you could somehow ferret out any of those games you'd be in for a treat.

The tricky thing about Rugby Union (playing it, and consequently writing it) is that the laws of the game are very complex and seem to be constantly changing.

Basic point scoring is thus:
5 for a try.
2 for a try conversion.
3 for a penalty goal.
3 for a drop goal.

Here's another link which, while not detailed, has a useful overview of the game and some of the terminology: http://www.activenewzealand.com/rugby-rules.php

bylinebree
11-15-2009, 04:11 AM
Thank you, Izz. I think we posted within a minute of each other! I research intermittently, then forget what the heck it's all about when I'm writing it.

"You know soccer," my husband, father of a soccer player, said to me. "Why don't you make him a soccer player?"

"It sure would be easier, but he's just not a soccer player. He was raised in Britain...he's a rugger!"

:Shrug:Sure would be great to write what I already know, if my right brain would accept that idea -!

Izz
11-15-2009, 04:14 AM
He's modeled a little, physically and rugby-wise, after Dan Carter of the Blacks. Definitely not huge and cauliflower-eared. Fast. Strategic. He did some kicking, yes.

The school team is modeled after Boston College in America.

So what would he work on in practice with the players, if he is a former fly-back?

Can you recommend a decent online source?Hmm--we cross-posted :)

So he's a former first-five, eh? (psst... it's All Blacks ;)--for an interesting, though not really related to your story short history of the team, click here (http://www.nzru.co.nz/History/AllBlacks/tabid/1189/Default.aspx))

He would likely work with the first-five of this team (plus his backups) on kicking drills (both place kicking and tactical kicking), on how to run and organize a backline, on set piece moves from scrums and lineouts, and on how to improve his instinctive game. One of the great things about Dan Carter is his ability to instinctively read a situation and react in the best possible way. To be fair, that isn't something that can be coached into a player (think Stephen Donald, one of the current backup first-fives to Carter, who has almost no instinct whatsoever), but if a player shows signs of being able to do that it can be improved. He would also probably act as a general mentor to those players also.

If he was specifically a co-coach, then he might have responsibility for the whole backline, both on defense and attack.

Can't think of any online resources right now, but i'll have a dig around.

Izz
11-15-2009, 04:16 AM
Thank you, Izz. I think we posted within a minute of each other! I research intermittently, then forget what the heck it's all about when I'm writing it.

"You know soccer," my husband, father of a soccer player, said to me. "Why don't you make him a soccer player?"

"It sure would be easier, but he's just not a soccer player. He was raised in Britain...he's a rugger!"

:Shrug:Sure would be great to write what I already know, if my right brain would accept that idea -!Heh, soccer (or football) is way bigger in the UK than rugby is. If he was born in New Zealand, however (or even Wales)...

bylinebree
11-15-2009, 05:18 AM
Heh, soccer (or football) is way bigger in the UK than rugby is. If he was born in New Zealand, however (or even Wales)...

True enough. He went out for rugby in a brief rebellion against his upper-class family. But if I can't get a good handle on this soon, I might tell my right brain to SHUT UP and just change it to soccer.

Heck, I started out the story in Cambridge England and moved it to Cambridge, MA.: waylander helped me with a few posts on both Cambrige and Law, btw!

So -- why not reconsider changing the freaking sport as well? I'd like to finish the book, dangit :)

Especially if, when I sit down to write a scene, my mind goes rugby-blank. Yikes : - )

Izz
11-15-2009, 05:50 AM
I'm sure you'll get there in the end :) I reckon rugby's much more interesting than soccer, but i could be biased... :D

Priene
11-15-2009, 12:05 PM
If he's upper class, he'll be playing Rugby Union, as League is very much a working class, northern game in the UK. Posh people aren't rebelling when they play rugby union, though, as they spend half their childhoods running around windy fields and grabbing each other by the knees.

Although the story of a posh lad who heads up to St Helens to fulfil his League dreams would be good material for a story.

waylander
11-15-2009, 02:06 PM
Pretty well all the private schools play Rugby Union, and to be in the first XV at school is very prestigious. It would hardly be rebellion for him to carry on playing to a high standard, especially if his father played. There are plenty of surgeons, bankers and judges who played good class club rugby in their past and now sit on the club committees.
Rugby Union only recently went pro over here, twenty years ago even the international players were (nominally) amateur.

Mr Flibble
11-15-2009, 02:52 PM
I'm sure you'll get there in the end :) I reckon rugby's much more interesting than soccer, but i could be biased... :D

Even in England in certain places Rugby is more popular than footy.

The players have better legs anyway

What?

Priene
11-15-2009, 03:07 PM
The players have better legs anyway


Maybe, but no-one ever came out of a football career with ears like cauliflowers.

Mr Flibble
11-15-2009, 03:32 PM
Maybe, but no-one ever came out of a football career with ears like cauliflowers.


When you start off looking like Wayne Rooney....

Priene
11-15-2009, 03:36 PM
I present Exhibit One: Gareth Chilcott (http://images.google.com/images?q=Gareth+Chilcott&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=gef_SubcGJKsjAfI4tCICw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQsAQwAA)

girlyswot
11-15-2009, 05:01 PM
True enough. He went out for rugby in a brief rebellion against his upper-class family.

Oh dear.

There is so much wrong in just this one sentence that I am really, really afraid for the rest of your book.

If he really comes from an upper class family, he will have gone to public school where the main winter sport will have been rugby. They won't have specified, but it will have been rugby union. Rugby League is a professional game played mainly by working-class northerners (yes, I'm stereotyping, because I think you need to know what the normal associations are before you start playing with them). There is no possible way in which he could have 'rebelled' by playing rugby union. If he then played at university (especially if he played well enough to get a blue) that would be sufficient excuse for coming out with a poor degree class.

Boys schools can roughly be divided into those which play football (ordinary) and those which play rugby (posh, or would like to be posh).

If you are serious about writing a book involving British characters and, in particular, the British class system you have a LOT of research to do. And I don't just mean asking occasional questions here. Sorry.

emilycross
11-15-2009, 05:25 PM
Oh dear.



Boys schools can roughly be divided into those which play football (ordinary) and those which play rugby (posh, or would like to be posh).



I'm not British but its the same here. Rugby is very much a posh sort of sport. There are hilharious book series called Ross O'Carroll-kelly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_O%27Carroll-Kelly) which is satirical novels about celtic tiger and 'd4'


Ross O'Carroll-Kelly is a fictional Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland) rugby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union) legend created by journalist Paul Howard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Howard_%28journalist%29). The character of Ross is a satirical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satirical) depiction of a wealthy, self-obsessed, "D4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_4)", rugby union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union) player.

I think you should definitely switch it to football/soccar especially if your more familiar with that sport!

Izz
11-15-2009, 10:58 PM
Although the story of a posh lad who heads up to St Helens to fulfil his League dreams would be good material for a story.I'd read that.

Fenika
11-16-2009, 03:36 AM
Argh, not Carter! Pick Merhtens, though he's long since retired.

I may be biased.

But I do approve of your choice of rugger. Even if you do fall back to soccer/football.

:)

RobinGBrown
11-16-2009, 08:16 PM
>He went out for rugby in a brief rebellion against his upper-class family

Just to confirm what girlyswot said, this is a definite no-no. Posh people play rugby, common people play football (soccer).

If he wanted to rebel he might go for another sport on offer, there are choices that than rugby and football, but none of them are as popular.

You might want to avoid making him either upper or lower class, people from the extremes of the social spectrum speak and think differently to those in the middle while still having a wide range of wealth.

Class in Britain is still quite strong, but it's not linked to wealth nearly as much as it used to be.

bylinebree
11-16-2009, 11:07 PM
Oh dear.

There is so much wrong in just this one sentence that I am really, really afraid for the rest of your book.



Well, don't be. That sent the hackles rising on my back, but I'll try to be cheerful. You really jumped to conclusions, here. The book is not set in England, the hero spend half his life in the States, there's more to his playing a sport than I said, and I've decided to go with more familiar ground anyway:

He is a SOCCER player, er, football to you on the other side of the ocean.

So see? I do know that much, here in ignorant ol' America. ;)

I have enjoyed the tiny bit of rugby I've been able to see. Hope to learn more in the future.

But if you all want to keep discussing this, have fun!

bylinebree
11-16-2009, 11:09 PM
P.S.: ALL Blacks, my apologies.

Dan Carter is almost the cutest things on two legs. As to who's cuter or more buff...oh just too many choices!

I'll admire them all. :D

bylinebree
11-16-2009, 11:13 PM
I present Exhibit One: Gareth Chilcott (http://images.google.com/images?q=Gareth+Chilcott&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=gef_SubcGJKsjAfI4tCICw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQsAQwAA)

Er, yeah...