Changing Markets and Re-writing.

Z0Marley · Nov 9, 2009

Opinion's Needed!

So, I think this is one of the few times that I've actually posted a personal question. Most of the time I ask simply to see all of the different opinions out there. This time, I would love to see some detailed advice, if you wouldn't mind.

So here's my predicament. About a year ago I began with a small, simple outline for a quartet (Urban Fantasy). My outline included a young 15 year old boy that got thrown into the disaster he's in now. Even though I wanted it to be mostly light-hearted, I wanted some deep underlying tones to the story. Naturally, each book tried to out-do the other. It became deeper, darker, and more controversial. I'm now staring at the ending of the last book saying, "Oh fuck. This isn't for the YA audience." So here's the problem:

I wouldn't change a thing about my second, third, or fourth book. How can I make the first one on the same tone as the others without completely screwing the plot of the others? Since I'm looking at turning it to an adult audience, should I completely re-write the first book? Should I change the kids age so he's an actual adult? Grr. So many questions. Please do keep in mind that this is targeted towards Fantasy readers.

Specific Questions:

As a SF/F writer, what changes would you make sure to do if you were to re-write the book?
Many adult readers think the "end of the world" stories are over-done. Should I completely hide the whole "The world could be destroyed if you refuse to help.."?
On the same note, it seems that many people hate Legends. My MC is not the hero that is supposed to save the world, but his superiors manipulate him to believe he is. Do you see this as a problem?
Should I change my MC's age? To be honest, getting into the mind of an adult male terrifies me. I designed my character around my younger brother, so his actions/thoughts are very easy for me. I'm not sure if I could say the same for a grown man.
Point of View: Do you think First-person POV is fine in this market? I've always preferred writing in this style, but it seems a bit dated for adult books.
Gore - I have a bit of gore in my book, but not too much. Should I add more, or do you think it is too small of a detail?

If I have more questions I'll add them. SO many it's hard to get them all down. If you have any other hints/tips, feel free to share!

All opinions are greatly appreciated

efkelley · Nov 9, 2009

Without having read it, it's difficult to endorse changes.

An interesting experiment is to simply rewrite the first book (and here's the trick) without cutting/pasting a single thing from the original draft. The story's tone changed as you wrote the others, so a rewrite from memory alone will be more likely to match the other two.

Your questions say to me that you're experiencing the same self-doubt and second-guessing that all writers do when their stories are finished. I'd keep it all as-is until an editor asked you to change these things. Odds are good that I'd even keep the first novel as-is and ask your editor/agent where they felt the story would best fit, YA or Mainstream SF/F.

I hope this is helpful in some way.

PortableHal · Nov 9, 2009

M. Austin, you've written four books in this series? Going entirely on hope and gusto and not offering any pages to agents or publishers? Wow.

Or are you still in the outline stage, a year later? I'm a little confused.

If you can bump up the age of your protagonist without damaging your story, you might do that. Generally speaking, a 15 year-old doesn't speak to an adult audience. A twenty-one year-old does.

I hate "end of the world" stories and "legend" stories. If (big "if") it's the same-old, same-old, "Luke, this is your destiny" approach. Give me a new twist on the end of the world, give me a legend that doesn't sound like a hundred others, and I'll line up for your words.

P.O.V. is your call. It all depends on the series' voice. Do it right, I'm putty in your hands. Editors and agents may disagree (several don't like the First Person voice) but I keep seeing the books on the stands.

How much gore to use is dependent on the tone of the book. If it's a quiet, reading room cozy, don't use any. If it's the novelization to the SAW series, ladle it on. Again, your call. If I like your hero, if I like your story, I'll wade through the gore. If I don't like one or both, the quantity of gore ain't gonna matter.

Good luck with your project.

Liosse de Velishaf · Nov 9, 2009

PortableHal said:
M. Austin, you've written four books in this series? Going entirely on hope and gusto and not offering any pages to agents or publishers? Wow.

Or are you still in the outline stage, a year later? I'm a little confused.

If you can bump up the age of your protagonist without damaging your story, you might do that. Generally speaking, a 15 year-old doesn't speak to an adult audience. A twenty-one year-old does.

I hate "end of the world" stories and "legend" stories. If (big "if") it's the same-old, same-old, "Luke, this is your destiny" approach. Give me a new twist on the end of the world, give me a legend that doesn't sound like a hundred others, and I'll line up for your words.

P.O.V. is your call. It all depends on the series' voice. Do it right, I'm putty in your hands. Editors and agents may disagree (several don't like the First Person voice) but I keep seeing the books on the stands.

How much gore to use is dependent on the tone of the book. If it's a quiet, reading room cozy, don't use any. If it's the novelization to the SAW series, ladle it on. Again, your call. If I like your hero, if I like your story, I'll wade through the gore. If I don't like one or both, the quantity of gore ain't gonna matter.

Good luck with your project.

I think that would depend more on your specific protagonist. I'd imagine this story has more at issue in terms of target audience than protag age anyway.

Personally, I don't have an issue with end-of-the-world stories if they aren't exactly the same as the last six that just got published. I'd be a bit more skeptical if there was a chosen hero aspect to it, even if it was a false prophecy. I'd also wonder whether you were being honest if the hero is a de-facto chosen one.

I don't care about person if you can write it well. Honestly,that applies to most of these issues, but I'm putting it here because it's all I've got.

Gore's got nothing to do with target audience for me. If it works in the story, great. If not, drop it.

defcon6000 · Nov 9, 2009

M.Austin said:
So here's my predicament. About a year ago I began with a small, simple outline for a quartet (Urban Fantasy). My outline included a young 15 year old boy that got thrown into the disaster he's in now. Even though I wanted it to be mostly light-hearted, I wanted some deep underlying tones to the story. Naturally, each book tried to out-do the other. It became deeper, darker, and more controversial. I'm now staring at the ending of the last book saying, "Oh fuck. This isn't for the YA audience."

How do you know it isn't for a YA audience? I know edgy YA treads on adultish issues whilst still appealing to teens. Might want to check that sub-genre out to see if your novel could fit in there.

As a SF/F writer, what changes would you make sure to do if you were to re-write the book?

Click to expand...

Well you have to first specify your starting point and your goal point: Where do you want this novel to go? What do you want to turn it into?
If you can navigate between those two points, than you're on the right track, otherwise I can't offer anything specific since I haven't seen this story nor understand what you want to change it into.

"The world could be destroyed if you refuse to help.."?

Click to expand...

That sounds more like a threat...a weak threat. I like what others have said in...one of these threads - sorry, I forgot where I had read it. Anyways, it was about the hero having the desire to save the world because there were things in so-called world that s/he valued and that s/he would be damned if s/he was going to allow someone to take it all away from them...whoever said that, feel free to credit for it.

But you see, that's a much stronger point when the hero takes a stand rather than allowing to be pushed around by the Fates or age old prophesies.

On the same note, it seems that many people hate Legends. My MC is not the hero that is supposed to save the world, but his superiors manipulate him to believe he is. Do you see this as a problem?

Click to expand...

But how do we know his superiors manipulate him if it's all from his limited POV? All we'll see is that he thinks he's the chosen one because everyone around him told him so and if he has no reason to question them, he'll just go with the flow.

"I'm the chosen one? ...Sweet!"

It also depends on his attitude and if he can handle the responsibly and pressure of being the 'chosen on.' He might very well reject the idea because he hates responsibilities and just wants to be a kid.

"I'm the chosen on? ...Screw that!" *runs*

Should I change my MC's age? To be honest, getting into the mind of an adult male terrifies me. I designed my character around my younger brother, so his actions/thoughts are very easy for me. I'm not sure if I could say the same for a grown man.

Click to expand...

Once again, check out edgy YA to see if it's a better match.

Point of View: Do you think First-person POV is fine in this market? I've always preferred writing in this style, but it seems a bit dated for adult books.

Click to expand...

I don't see a problem with writing in 1st person for the adult market. It may not be as common as it is in YA, but is doesn't mean it's dated.

Gore - I have a bit of gore in my book, but not too much. Should I add more, or do you think it is too small of a detail?

Click to expand...

Up to you and your style. Some people like lots of gore, others will cringe and immediately stop reading. If you think you want to write for the gore loving audience, then go right ahead. Just remember that you can't please everyone.

But if someone gets injured during a sword fight (or whatever violent acts you have), by all means, please mention the wound and don't have the chracter just 'walk it off' especially if it's severe.

bearilou · Nov 10, 2009

I'm not sure I can offer any advice from a writer's perspective but I will echo that what efkelley said rings true to me.

M.Austin said:
On the same note, it seems that many people hate Legends. My MC is not the hero that is supposed to save the world, but his superiors manipulate him to believe he is. Do you see this as a problem?

As a reader, I wanted to specifically respond to this.

Perhaps, I'm not widely read in the 'save the world' trope but this little twist has me most interested!

Z0Marley · Nov 10, 2009

M. Austin, you've written four books in this series? Going entirely on hope and gusto and not offering any pages to agents or publishers? Wow.

Or are you still in the outline stage, a year later? I'm a little confused.

Book One - Completed/Self -Edited.
Book Two - Completed/Self-Edited
Book Three - Going through the third draft/Final Edit
Book Four - First Draft down and a long way to go.

Guess I'm a bit nervous when it comes to agents/publishers. I want to make sure what I have is absolutely steady. I also wanted to make sure everything was perfectly foreshadowed from the get go. Honestly, I can think of a million reasons between tying my story together and the market to continue procrastinating. It's getting to the point where I really can't anymore though.

If you can bump up the age of your protagonist without damaging your story, you might do that. Generally speaking, a 15 year-old doesn't speak to an adult audience. A twenty-one year-old does.

I don't see it being too hard. You don't see my character's life in the "real world" much.

I hate "end of the world" stories and "legend" stories. If (big "if") it's the same-old, same-old, "Luke, this is your destiny" approach. Give me a new twist on the end of the world, give me a legend that doesn't sound like a hundred others, and I'll line up for your words.

That sounds more like a threat...a weak threat. I like what others have said in...one of these threads - sorry, I forgot where I had read it. Anyways, it was about the hero having the desire to save the world because there were things in so-called world that s/he valued and that s/he would be damned if s/he was going to allow someone to take it all away from them...whoever said that, feel free to credit for it.

You're right. It does sound like a weak threat. I summarized it to simply get the point across. =x

To give a bit more detail, the actual world is not at risk, only most of humanity. The basis is world war three. At the end of the second book, regardless of my MC's efforts, the world undergoes nuclear winter. So, there's not really much to save. At the beginning it was a full effort to prevent war. Naturally, he had many reasons to prevent this, so the desire is there. I'm not sure he'd make it through the quartet otherwise.

But how do we know his superiors manipulate him if it's all from his limited POV? All we'll see is that he thinks he's the chosen one because everyone around him told him so and if he has no reason to question them, he'll just go with the flow.

You see my problem! You don't know he's been manipulated 'til the second book. He doesn't have a reason to question anything, and it makes him do some -really- stupid things. So you see, I have these underlying themes that carry on through the entire story. The first book merely sets them up. While there's more leeway in YA, I think adults are much more particular (if you were wondering why do I now start questioning my book).

Perhaps, I'm not widely read in the 'save the world' trope but this little twist has me most interested!

Hi Bear! I agree. I never liked, "YOU ARE THE GREATEST HERO THAT WILL EVER LIVEEEE!" I wanted my character to undergo the confidence as if he were the greatest hero that would ever live since he was rather timid. Ego strokes work really well on my MC. Anyway, since I personally didn't like it, I decided to turn it into a complete lie. Personally, I enjoyed it.

I'd also wonder whether you were being honest if the hero is a de-facto chosen one.

That's actually why I chose to write a quartet. The first three act as a trilogy of my MC, Bryce. The last one is set twenty years into the future. My MC and his nephew lead an army to end all war. So does he have a huge role? Yes. The main antagonist is killed by my MC's nephew though. So in all actuality, the person that solves all of the conflicts is the nephew.

How do you know it isn't for a YA audience? I know edgy YA treads on adultish issues whilst still appealing to teens. Might want to check that sub-genre out to see if your novel could fit in there.

While I know there are some really, really edgy YA's, I wonder if the genre is still openly accepting to what was once "taboo". My book has philosophy. The entirety is based off of religions (Judaism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslim, and Christianity). It's very political. War and rape are everywhere. I came up with most of the outline when I was nineteen; so I know YA readers can "handle" it. I just don't believe something as controversial is so well-received like it would be in Fantasy.

Thank you all for the responses. I welcome many more.

MumblingSage · Nov 10, 2009

I'm probably not a great deal of help, but a fair deal of fantasy and science fiction stories written for an adult audience feature children or young adults as protagonists. Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy and Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game would be examples.

Rebekah7 · Nov 10, 2009

Maybe you could offer little hints (not blatant breadcrumbs) for the readers about the fact that it's all a lie in the first book that the MC is too naive to figure out. That would make the audience more interested in watching him make all his stupid mistakes. You could also bump up his revelation that it's a lie to the first book.

ChaosTitan · Nov 10, 2009

The age of the protagonist doesn't automatically make a book YA. Look at Ender's Game--it was originally written for and marketed to adults.

YA is about theme and content as much as protagonist age. Have you checked out some of the threads up in the YA forum to see what it's all about?

Changing Markets and Re-writing.

Z0Marley

efkelley

ow

PortableHal

Not-so-new

Liosse de Velishaf

defcon6000

bearilou

DenturePunk writer

Z0Marley

MumblingSage

Inarticulate Herb

Rebekah7

Unofficial Jester

ChaosTitan

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