PW Best-Books Lists Snub Women Writers

Status
Not open for further replies.

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
Not sure if you guys were aware of it, but PW recently released a list of what they consider to be the best books of 2009 and not a single one was written by a woman. Now I could have a few choice words about that, but Lizzie Skurnick at Politics Daily wrote such a great reply that I think I'm just going to steal her words:

"I got a glimmer of an answer last year as I sat in a board room hashing out the winners for one of the awards for which I am a judge. Our short list was pretty much split evenly along gender lines. But as we went through each category, a pattern emerged. Some books, it seemed, were "ambitious." Others were well-wrought, but somehow . . . "small." "Domestic." "Unam --" what's the word? "-- bititous."
...
But, incredulous, again and again, I watched as we pushed aside works that everyone acknowledged were more finely wrought, were, in fact, competently wrought, for books that had shot high but fallen short. And every time the book that won was a man's.
...
The conservatives are right: affirmative action is huge blemish on the face of our nation. And until we stop giving awards to men who don't deserve them over women who do, we're sunk. Because our default is to somehow feel like Philip Roth's output is impressive while Joyce Carol Oates' is a punchline. Our default is to call John Updike a genius on the basis of four very wonderful books and many truly weird ones, while Margaret Atwood, with the same track record, is simply beloved. Our default is to title Ayelet Waldman's book, "Bad Mother," while her husband's is "Manhood for Amateurs." Our default is that women are small, men are universal. Well, I know men get sensitive if you call them small. But gentlemen, sometimes you are."



Read her full response here.

Personally I am of the opinion that there still is a gender bias in publishing. I'm not the only one. Since I wrote it myself, I am going to quote myself and my sources from my blog:

This disparity between the genders seems to exist in every genre. Agent Kristin Nelson wrote in her blog post entitled
Dad Wisdom & Publishing:

"From my personal experience (and I really can only speak from that perspective), I truly believe that for literary fiction, it’s much easier to sell boy writers than gals. I know. Who can possibly make such a general statement but I have to say that I’ve encountered several worthy manuscripts that I’m rather convinced that if the writer had been male, the novel would have sold."

She also wrote another very interesting blog entry about the genders entitled PW Survey Says about the differences between genders within the publishing industry itself (an industry, one will note, that is heavily female).


So I am one of those people who will look at a list of top 10 books without a single female on it and get suspicious. I am also the sort of person, who while waiting in the queue at the bookstore will pick up one of those impulse buy novelty books entitled "100 Books Men Must Read" and flip to the index where it is revealed but ONE female author is worthy of their attention.

And then I see comments like for the post of Ms. Skurnick's article that say that for women "to pretend they write as well as men is absurd" and I just have to go take a breath of fresh air.

So what do you guys see? Do we see this gender divide? More importantly, what can we do about it? Personally as a female author my goal is to simply be an "author" not anything attributed to my gender. But I have to say, it kind of makes me sad that I am seriously contemplating changing my name to either a male pseudonym or initials should my next work ever sell - just so that it isn't utterly distasteful to male readers (and especially as it is centred around a male protagonist and deals heavily with themes such as the father/son dynamic).

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 42

I mind less that there aren't women represented than I do the fact that you'd have to pay me to read any of the selected books.

What on earth were their criteria?
 

colealpaugh

"Bear trumps Elephants!"
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
952
Reaction score
171
Location
Northeast Pennsylvania
Website
www.colealpaugh.com
I mind less that there aren't women represented than I do the fact that you'd have to pay me to read any of the selected books.

What on earth were their criteria?

You're nuts if you'd pass on a book with a jacket reading, "Philosopher and motorcycle repair-shop owner Crawford extols the value of..."

I've waited my entire #@$% life for that book.


And I leafed through the Cheever bio because I was in school when he won the Pulitzer and it was a hot topic. But I'm stunned this book would even be considered as a PW Top 10. How can there not be some hidden agenda?



ETA: Mental Floss came out with their Top 10 today: 2009
They are books I've read or would consider reading.
 
Last edited:

BigWords

Geekzilla
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
10,670
Reaction score
2,360
Location
inside the machine
The bigger question that sprung to the forefront of my mind was the one about the PW list's relevance in an age of the internet, and a gazillion other lists counting down the books of the year. If they want people to question their credibility, that list would be a fine starting place...
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
You weren't aware that a penis emparts super writing skills to its owner? Sheesh, no wonder they say women are illogical!
 

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
4,422
Reaction score
640
Location
Metropolitan District of Washington
Website
www.linda-adams.com
They're not the first. A similar controversary occurred a few years back with International Thriller Writer's Awards. They announced their winners, and no women. There was some very nasty feedback on it at the time.

The Washington Post has also gotten nailed a few times for having reviews of books by men and not by women (of course now they dropped their book section and only have a few reviews a week). In fact, I remember when they reviewed Sue Grafton's mystery series book. She had put this single sentence into the book about the character wearing makeup--a single sentence that took up two lines in a huge book. The reviewer homed in on that sentence and derided the book with a paragraph longer than the original sentence, moaning the fact that the series was going to the women.

And I've also seen instances where, just because a book was written by a woman, it was automatically considered somehow inferior. I wanted to write an action-adventure thriller where the heroine of the story got a good, realistic role--and I had people look at me askance. You want to do what? I even had two writers who were extremely offended that I would do such a thing.

I ended up going to to urban fantasy, though there, my story requires a male character. Even then, I've been thinking at times that maybe I need a male pen name.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I'm going with initials. I really am.

Oy! I have a female protagonist, too :( But it's not a girly story at all. I don't like incredibly macho stories and understand men not liking incredibly girly stories... but note 'incredibly'. It's flat-out wrong for PW to think male stories are the only ones that can be good.

Location: new york
Occupation: professor

Spent some time checking out the general content of the books that
made the list - the summaries are all taken from the Publisher's
Weekly website below. Simple to observe that the content that "stood
out from the rest" according to PW is all about mostly male
protagonists and their realities: war, adventure, science, boyhood
adventures, taming the wilderness, the male writer's life, etc. In other
words, the novels that deal with women's realities simply "don't stand
out" - check the content of the TOP TEN "UNIVERSAL" MEN:
 

Wayne K

Banned
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
21,564
Reaction score
8,082
It can hold the steering wheel straight as I roll a joint.
 

Wayne K

Banned
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
21,564
Reaction score
8,082
The male dominated society doesn't want to lose the argument "Who's smarter boys or girls?"

They cheat at everything else, why not this?

They know the answer.
 

eyeblink

Barbara says hi
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
6,367
Reaction score
904
Location
Aldershot, UK
From a UK perspective, concerns about female representation in awards shortlists such as the Booker Prize resulted in the Orange Broadband Prize (which one AWer, Orion aka Patricia Wood, was shortlisted for last year). There were complaints about this being sexist, but if you think about it, more people are eligible for the Orange (open to women writing novels in the English language) than the Man Booker (open to novelists of either gender, but only ones who are citizens of the UK, the Commonwealth of Nations, Ireland and Zimbabwe - so Canadians are eligible but US citizens aren't).

Maybe it has had some effect. The three literary novels that were published in the UK this spring that had the most buzz, were the most ambitious, and also sold quite well, were all by women - A.S. Byatt, Hilary Mantel, Sarah Waters. All three were on the Man Booker shortlist, and Mantel was the overwhelming favourite and went on to win.

Personally, I'll take Joyce Carol Oates over John Updike any day - but then JCO is the novelist I've read more works by than any other - over 35 of her novels or book-length novellas so far.

Having said all that, I'm quite aware that many boys and men will rarely if ever read novels by women. Hence Joanne Rowling becoming J.K. Rowling, for just one example. (That said, no-one accused J.G. Ballard of hiding his gender as far as I know - and there are many examples of male writers using initials or a female pseudonym to publish in genres primarily read by females.) Personally I'm saddened by that - I do want to read about people different to myself, male or female both. I don't want to have my prejudices confirmed. Maybe that's just me.

Here's a true story. A friend of mine teaches English in a Scottish secondary school. A book that is frequently taught is S.E. Hinton's The Outsiders (a novel my friend cannot stand, and don't get her started on the film version). This is at the headmaster's insistence, who thinks that The Outsiders is a novel which is relevant to and speaks to teenage boys in particular. The head is a man who won't read novels by women. He wouldn't even read my friend's published short-fiction collection, which includes a story which deservedly won a Crime Writers' Association award - nice of him. As far as I know, no-one has broken it to him that the initials in S.E. Hinton's name stand for Susan Eloise.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 42

You're nuts if you'd pass on a book with a jacket reading, "Philosopher and motorcycle repair-shop owner Crawford extols the value of..."

I've waited my entire #@$% life for that book.

Check out Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values by Robert Pirsig; he got there first. 1974
 

HelloKiddo

bemused observer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
777
Reaction score
151
As a female (wannabe) writer, this is always on my mind. I can't help but wonder if anything I write will be viewed as inferior because of it.

Of course, some women writers are highly respected--Virginia Woolf, Elizabeth Bishop, Flannery O'Connor--but they are the exception, not the rule. And those are examples of brilliant super-genius freaks.
 

BigWords

Geekzilla
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
10,670
Reaction score
2,360
Location
inside the machine
Check out Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values by Robert Pirsig; he got there first. 1974

<DERAIL>

I read that after it was recommended in the old run of The Question comics back when Denny O'Neil made reading DC titles an educational experience as much as a form of entertainment. *sigh* Ah, the good old days...

</DERAIL>
 

Stacia Kane

Girl Detective
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
8,142
Reaction score
2,669
Location
In cahoots with the other boo-birds
Website
www.staciakane.com
I'm going with initials. I really am.

Oy! I have a female protagonist, too :( But it's not a girly story at all. I don't like incredibly macho stories and understand men not liking incredibly girly stories... but note 'incredibly'. It's flat-out wrong for PW to think male stories are the only ones that can be good.


Location: new york
Occupation: professor

Spent some time checking out the general content of the books that
made the list - the summaries are all taken from the Publisher's
Weekly website below. Simple to observe that the content that "stood
out from the rest" according to PW is all about mostly male
protagonists and their realities: war, adventure, science, boyhood
adventures, taming the wilderness, the male writer's life, etc. In other
words, the novels that deal with women's realities simply "don't stand
out" - check the content of the TOP TEN "UNIVERSAL" MEN:

That was the exact point I made, in comments on the original PW article. :) Yes, it's not right to say no women will be interested in "Woodworking Makes Me A Man, See?" or "Men Have Adventures" or "Men Do Great Things" as books, but there really is no denying those books are overwhelmingly male-focused. The few female characters seem to be femme fatales or abused, and all appear to be secondary.

In fact, an additional thought on that "Shop Class" book: Had a woman written it, and it had been about "manual competence" as it relates to knitting, sewing, cooking, cleaning, whatever--more traditionally female manual tasks rather than traditionally male--would it have been on the list? Or would it be "That knitting book that lady wrote"?
 
Last edited:

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
Everytime I see something like this it makes me think the human race has no chance. Men who don't deserve arads and women who do? WHT makes that decision? A woman, I guess.

Equality means you vote to give the award to teh book you like the most, and if this means every last damn award goes to men, that's teh way it should be.

I have no patience fro whiners who blame everything on gender when I know for a fact that even blind judging awards typically produce the same results.

If you want to win an award, then write the best book. The best book, by definition, is the one most people like, not the one written by a man or a woman.
 

BigWords

Geekzilla
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
10,670
Reaction score
2,360
Location
inside the machine
Equality means you vote to give the award to teh book you like the most, and if this means every last damn award goes to men, that's teh way it should be.

And everyone would agree on the books that are most liked, right? There is no generally agreed upon 'best' in anything, so the concept of an award itself is flawed.
 

eqb

I write novels
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,680
Reaction score
2,056
Location
In the resistance
Website
www.claireodell.com
If you want to win an award, then write the best book. The best book, by definition, is the one most people like, not the one written by a man or a woman.

This is so true. Imagine all those years when only straight white men from Western Europe and the US won awards. Clearly no one else in the whole world was writing anything worthwhile. (/sarcasm)
 

Wayne K

Banned
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
21,564
Reaction score
8,082
I'm with the girls on this. Come to think of it I'm always with the girls, they're smarter than us.
 

ishtar'sgate

living in the past
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
3,801
Reaction score
459
Location
Canada
Website
www.linneaheinrichs.com
I'm a woman and a writer but my favorite books are primarily written by men. That's not to say that I don't have any favorite books written by women, I do. Overall though, when I think of purchased books on my shelf, most of the authors are men. I don't know why that is. It's not something I deliberately chose to do. It's simply the way it is. If men are writing the best books, the books most people want to read, I don't see that as gender bias I see that as writing to aspire to.
 
Last edited:

MGraybosch

Lunch Break Novelist
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Messages
2,877
Reaction score
404
Location
United States
Website
www.matthewgraybosch.com
So, a bunch of small-minded wankers at Publishers Weekly compiled a list of their favorites, and not one of them had been written by a woman? This only matters because people pay attention to PW. Ignore PW; their opinions only matter because people allow them to matter.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.