Questions about Devil/curses/Ouija...etc

The first thing you have to realize is that the Church of Satan is more geared toward a "live for the now, there is nothing after death" belief system than any worship of the Christian devil. Old Satanist friends have told me that the name Satan was chosen purely for the cultural shock value than anything else. It doesn't surprise me that you're finding them unhelpful.

The design of the ouija (which means "Yes Yes", once in French and once in German) came from what the spiritualists of the late 1800's used. They'd put out cards with letters on them around a table and use a glass in the same way at the seances of that time. It was a very popular activity in the late Victorian era. The design is practical more than historical or mystical. IIRC, there were two Christian churches formed during that time around spiritualist beliefs and practices.

If you want devil-worshipping rituals and curses and the like, I'd start with a demonology base. You also might want to find a most excellent book called "The History of Hell" which explores how the modern devil and Hell was created and all the various elements that are a part of that mythos. It might help you in your creative process and future research.

Good luck.

Since 1966, Ouija has been a Parker Brother's game.

There really aren't any Satanists like you're looking for. As you found, the majority of Satanists are actually atheist and do not worship anything, but merely use the symbols as part of their rituals (and annoying Christians is a big part of that).

To be the kind of Satanist you're talking about, you'd have to accept the Christian worldview (Good is God, Satan is bad, they're at eternal war, etc.) and then you'd have to deliberately follow the wrong side. It's kind of a contradiction in terms, and is pretty much limited to very small groups of mentally ill people who make it up as they go along. What few magic rituals they have only impress themselves. No group that advocates serious criminal activity can have any sort of stable membership.

There are people who call themselves Luciferians and (unlike most Satanists) actually worship Lucifer. However their idea of what Lucifer is like is pretty different from the Christian idea, as evidenced by the use of the name Lucifer (Latin for "Light-bringer"). There are some stable groups, and they do have rituals, but I'm guessing these are also pretty benign. Anyhow, Wikipedia will lead you to specific books which you can purchase.

Urp.

Go find a copy of Henry Kelly's Biography of Satan.

Seriously. Do this.

This is not really Satanism, but perhaps the kind of thing you are looking for could be found in the writings and life of Alister Crowley. Very Victorian British and a fairly disagreeable person, he did have a lot of influence on ceremonial magicians for the last 100 years. Some of his followers have the kind of rituals that you might be thinking about – theatrical, serious and percise. His practices are what a lot of people think about when they think about Satanism, minus the sacrifices.

If you're interested in what the Bible actually says about the satan and what he actually is, I can give you the Jewish explanation.

Actual, conscious worship of evil is pretty rare. One of the few who might actually qualify for this would be Charles Manson. Maybe.

There is some circumstantial evidence that the Knights Templar engaged in what could be interpreted as satanic (or demon-worshiping) practices, mostly involving a head symbol dubbed Baphomet.

Various mysterious events in history could, in theory, be attributed to demonic influences: Spring-Heeled Jack is one, as is the Beast of Gévaudan (which was the basis for the movie Brotherhood of the Wolf) and the so-called Highgate Vampire.

As far as I can tell, Manson's worldview was basically Christian, and he thought he was Jesus. In other words, he thought all the horrible things he was doing were for the best and wasn't conscious of himself as evil at all.

Manson's views were rooted in Roman Catholicism but seriously "tainted" with the pseudo-Satanism of the Process Church, coupled with his own bizarre theorizing about the world. But keep in mind he was a man preaching the virtue of terror, the rightness of violent murder and was also an advocate of virulent racism. For these reasons I say Manson "might" be considered a true Satanist, not least because his teachings were a perversion of Christian Doctrine (of course by that definition then so was the Spanish Inquisition--a perfectly viable argument IMHO).

DeyenLee, it's not only that Satanist are more geared toward atheism, they are atheists. Satanism only makes sense if we're (they're) atheists. I did a lot of research on this for an earlier project and even interviewed a theology thesis student working on Satanism. The below is cut'n'pasted from notes:

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According to Bart Ehrman, in his book Lost Christianities, Satan comes form Marcionism. Marcionites was one of the three major branches of Early Chrisianity (Catholicism, was none of them). Marcionites thought that the God of the New Testament was a new god, and the God of the old Testament was the old god (ie the Jewish God). So they believed in two gods (ie not monotheist). Early Catholicism did not believe in Satan and Marcionites were branded as heretics. Marcionism was cantered around Anatolia. The idea of Satan came back to Catholicism as crusader troops marched through Anatolia headed for Jerusalem.

In her book on Islam, Karen Armstrong explains where the name "Satan" comes from. In Islam Sietan/Shaitan is a false God, but in a very specific sense. A "shaitanist" is a person who worships God, but does it wrong. It's not somebody who is evil. It's just somebody who is misinformed. So saying that somebody is worshipping Satan in Islam, means that they need educating on the faith, not that they need to be killed or even punished. Via traders this words found itself back to Catholicism and within Christianity got to represent the Marcionist idea's of God the crusaders brought back with them.

If we're to trust any of those two. The concept of Satan in Christianity as we know today didn't bloom out fully until the Renaissance.

When Jewish faith evolved/switched from predominantly henotheism to predominantly monotheism (Ca 250 BC to 100 AD) all pagan gods were seen as evil, and their names could all be used to represent it. But this is not where the modern idea of Satan comes from.

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The supernatural concept of Satan makes no sense unless we accept the Christian God. It's a concept within Christianity, and only within Christianity. If you accept the Christian God, then why on earth would you worship Satan? He exists in Christian mythology for the sole purpose of being everything immoral and bad, and then ultimately always lose. If you worship that entity, you are technically not Satanist, but belong to some wonky Christian sect. Satanists are by definition atheists.

There's historically been all kinds of Christians. The below were all bonafide Christians who all used the Christian Bible, (same chapters but slightly different content) as a manual for life.

The Cainites worshipped Kain, in the old testament. They equated God with evil, and with original sin humans were evil. Kain allowed salvation from evil/God. They liked Judas.

The Orphites worshipped the reptile god, that's the snake in the Garden of Eden. It's job was to enlighten humanity and make her divine. They went out of their way to reject the old testament and even the ten commandments. The evidence on what they did is sketchy, but the sources say that the Orphites rejected monogamy and sexual morals in general.

The Phibionites swapped wives and had sexual orgies as their holiest ritual. Communion was actual blood, menstrual blood, and semen. But they didn't eat it. What they did with is lost in history, but the object was to free the soul from the tragedy of the material existence.

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Satan isn't in the Bible. It never was in any of them. The modern idea of Satan as a dualistic evil counterforce to gods goodness, comes from Marcionism, which was a type of Christianity branded as heretical ca 300 AD. Marcion thought that the God of the old testament is a different god entirely from the god of the New Testament, so this was his theological solution. He thought the God of the Jews was evil, (ie what later came to be called Satan). But even if they had the same Bible, (same books, and chapters but slightly different content) their meta-physical world was radically different. They really believed in two gods, having some sort of cosmic battle, ie they were not monotheist. Marcionism was bigger than Catholicism for a long time. In early Christianity Catholicism was fourth on the list. And all modern Christian sects all evolved from Catholicism. So it's been quite a twisting and turning journey.

A supernatural entity who has any virtuous characteristics is not Satan. Satan only exists as a narrative tool to give examples of what is bad and unwanted. If you want to make a case that Satan exists and that he wants us to embrace freedom or whatever virtue you think isn't captured by any today living Christian sects, then don't call it Satan. It doesn't make sense. By using the word Satan you're referencing an entity that can only exist if we accept Christian meta-physics.

Here's an example. Milton in his epic, and very famous, poem Paradise Lost painted a picture of Satan where Satan's temptation was a lot more attractive than the boring life of a virtuous Christian. This was a protestant (and liberal) critique of prevailing Christian values and probably a critique of the politics of his day. It's not trying to make us worship Satan. That's a completely different battle. Milton was very much a Christian.

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I hope you can use any of this. It took a lot of research to compile the data. If you have any questions I hope I still can answer

I did a little research on this SictanicK dude for a work of mine. He's very into rituals, etc. and enjoys discussing it.

http://www.skrwillrise.com/guestbook/

Google sicktanic or sicktanick and you might find a better site to reach him, but he definitely reads this guestbook. Heads up that he's in the news because of association with a spree killer that was also a 'follower' of these things.

foreverstamp said:

Hi Guys,

First, let me say THANK YOU!! Honestly, AW is so good because you can be sure there are people with just the information you are looking to find, and more than that, they are willing to share it with you. The information/resources you guys have provided are great, and I am presently waiting on a couple of the books recommended so I can read them. If anyone has other information please pass it along. Obscure rituals…religions that are shrouded in mystery that most people don’t know about…etc etc.

I thought I would share my experience since it may be interesting to some people:
As I mentioned, I spoke at length to several “Satanists”. I quote the word because I am not aware of any international affiliation that is required to be a Satanist, and therefore the people I spoke to, may have just been self-proclaimed Satanists (though they did have a meeting place and conducted regular meetings).

FWIW – the men I spoke to were far from atheists. In fact, there is no question that God (the Christian God) exists. However, they see Satan as a God as well. You see, they said that God (the Father) created everything; he created Jesus Christ, Lucifer, and everything else for that matter. Jesus Christ and Lucifer, and the rest of the host of heaven are, in essence, siblings. Since Jesus Christ is a God, so too is Lucifer.

I asked if they thought him a lesser god from God the Father, and they said “Perhaps”. I asked them to explain what they meant by “perhaps” and they said, “Satan is a lesser God in the same way you (meaning me) might be a lesser man than your Father. You have the potential to be a better man than your father, eventually, but presently you might be learning what it means to be a man. But you are still a man.”

Ultimately the impression I got was that they were “Sympathizers” feeling that Satan got a raw-deal by getting kicked out of heaven. It was a strange feeling sitting there listening to their logic. Personally I do not have an issue with what they believed—it’s not my belief system, but honestly, the guys I met weren’t harming anyone, so they’re free to believe what they want.

Thanks again for all the assistance, guys. Most appreciated. keep those suggestions coming

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Those sound like Luciferians. There are numerous variations, but basically they think Lucifer was somehow equivalent to God and given a bad rap. You said you have a copy of the Satanic Bible--most people who use that book call themselves Satanists, but they are in fact atheists. They are sometimes called LeVey Satanists, after their founder and are the largest single group of Satanists.

If your Luciferian friends don't have a ritual that works for you, you pretty much are looking at genuinely disturbed people (like Manson) who may have convinced themselves that they are worshiping the evil one, and you might as well make something up. But don't make the mistake of assigning any real influence or stability to these guys.

foreverstamp said:

FWIW – the men I spoke to were far from atheists. In fact, there is no question that God (the Christian God) exists. However, they see Satan as a God as well. You see, they said that God (the Father) created everything; he created Jesus Christ, Lucifer, and everything else for that matter. Jesus Christ and Lucifer, and the rest of the host of heaven are, in essence, siblings. Since Jesus Christ is a God, so too is Lucifer.

I asked if they thought him a lesser god from God the Father, and they said “Perhaps”. I asked them to explain what they meant by “perhaps” and they said, “Satan is a lesser God in the same way you (meaning me) might be a lesser man than your Father. You have the potential to be a better man than your father, eventually, but presently you might be learning what it means to be a man. But you are still a man.”

Ultimately the impression I got was that they were “Sympathizers” feeling that Satan got a raw-deal by getting kicked out of heaven. It was a strange feeling sitting there listening to their logic. Personally I do not have an issue with what they believed—it’s not my belief system, but honestly, the guys I met weren’t harming anyone, so they’re free to believe what they want.

Thanks again for all the assistance, guys. Most appreciated. keep those suggestions coming

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Oh, this kind of Satanism. I misunderstood, sorry. What I'm writing below is from memory, but I think it'll be correct.

The Satanism you're describing was invented in the 1990'ies and, apart from the name, didn't develop out of any theology or tradition. These Satanists have simply taken a superficial image of the Church of Satan and filled in the blanks, with whatever they think should be there. This kind of Satanism is intimately connected with the Black Metal movement and was pretty much invented by Varg Vikernes who was a heavy metal shop owner in Oslo, Norway (Burzum records). And it spread from there. He was convicted for burning down a church and murder. I think he was 21 or something when he was convicted, so these were very young guys. If one is cynical, one could chose to see this as nothing more than a publicity stunt for his band.

The rituals they performed come from the book Necronomicon (not to be confused with the mythical book mentioned by HP Lovercraft). A book that popped up in the 70'ies from nowhere and is most likely based on some sort of pop-image of Sumerian religion and most likely written for the sole intent to make money. It's not a scholarly work and the author is anonymous.

Another hero for the "movement" (if you can call it that) is Alistair Crowley, who called himself a mystic, the kind of mysticism that was popular in Victorian England. He never called himself a Satanist, even if he did refer to himself as "the beast".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Norwegian_black_metal_scene

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0380751925/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necronomicon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

DrZoidberg said:

Lots of misinformation...

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Wow, I didn't think you could fit that much misinformation into a single post. Kudos. I'm not even sure where to start.

As far as henotheism vs monotheism is concerned, it is unclear whether or not the Torah indicates that the Jewish people (and G-d) accepted the possibility that other deities existed but were beneath the Jewish G-d or if they believed that all other gods were false. It is an interesting intellectual debate, but really pointless in the end.

It is pretty universally accepted that Judaism in its core is monotheistic. The presence of henotheism in the Land of Israel is irrelevant because there were other people living there at the times you cite--and they weren't Jewish. Unfortunately, the Jewish people were prone to idol worship, but that was individual practice--not the Jewish faith itself.

As far as Satan in the Bible, what Bible are you reading? Not only is he explicitly mentioned more than once, the Midrash explains his place in several other places where he is not explicitly mentioned.

For example:

Iyov 1:6-8 said:

וַיְהִי הַיּוֹם--וַיָּבֹאוּ בְּנֵי האלהם, לְהִתְיַצֵּב עַל יְה; וַיָּבוֹא גַם הַשָּׂטָן, בְּתוֹכָם

And it was upon a day that the sons of G-d came to present themselves before the L-RD, and The Satan came also among them.

וַיֹּאמֶר יְה אֶל הַשָּׂטָן, מֵאַיִן תָּבֹא; וַיַּעַן הַשָּׂטָן אֶת יְה, וַיֹּאמַר, מִשּׁוּט בָּאָרֶץ, וּמֵהִתְהַלֵּךְ בָּהּ

And the L-RD said to The Satan, "From where do you come?" Then The Satan answered the L-RD, and he said, "From going to and fro on the Earth, and walking up and down on it."

וַיֹּאמֶר יְה אֶל הַשָּׂטָן, הֲשַׂמְתָּ לִבְּךָ עַל עַבְדִּי אִיּוֹב: כִּי אֵין כָּמֹהוּ בָּאָרֶץ, אִישׁ תָּם וְיָשָׁר יְרֵא אלהם וְסָר מֵרָע

And the L-RD said to The Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job--that there is none like him on Earth, a whole-hearted and upright man, one who fears G-d and shuns evil."​

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foreverstamp said:

Sure, Lets hear it. the more information the better as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks.

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PLEASE read my post that I made in response to Dr Zoidberg. His "information" regarding Satan and the Bible, as well as Judaism is completely unfounded and wrong. I'm not sure where he got any of that information, but just reading your Bible will show you that he did not do any actual research before posting. I don't know much about the other stuff he discussed, but I am immediately skeptical because of the lack of intellectual honesty regarding his comments on Judaism.

Just want to point out that witches are NOT satanists and witchcraft has no connection to Satanism. To my knowledge, Aleister Crowley wasn't a Satanist either although LeVey was influenced by his writings and rituals, etc. Here's an interesting site re: Crowley (a discussion re: the notion that he was a satanist):
http://occultlibrary.info/was-aleister-crowley-a-satanist/
http://occultlibrary.info/aleister-crowley-and-modern-satanists/

An interesting website that may be of some use to you:
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/true.html

Forms of Satanism:

• Righteous Satan Theologies are belief systems that include a dominant and worthy evil force, some of which hold that "God" is the oppressor of whosoever is gullible enough and Satan is the god of the strong. Click the link to list such beliefs
• If there is a God, it is evil. Some agnostic, theistic or atheistic Satanists hold that if there is a single God, it is evil
• Introduction to LaVey Satanism. Atheistic Satanism, by far the most popular kind, believing in the self as the only thing worthy of being called "God".

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semilargeintestine said:

Wow, I didn't think you could fit that much misinformation into a single post. Kudos. I'm not even sure where to start.

As far as henotheism vs monotheism is concerned, it is unclear whether or not the Torah indicates that the Jewish people (and G-d) accepted the possibility that other deities existed but were beneath the Jewish G-d or if they believed that all other gods were false. It is an interesting intellectual debate, but really pointless in the end.

It is pretty universally accepted that Judaism in its core is monotheistic. The presence of henotheism in the Land of Israel is irrelevant because there were other people living there at the times you cite--and they weren't Jewish. Unfortunately, the Jewish people were prone to idol worship, but that was individual practice--not the Jewish faith itself.

As far as Satan in the Bible, what Bible are you reading? Not only is he explicitly mentioned more than once, the Midrash explains his place in several other places where he is not explicitly mentioned.

For example:



And then their conversation continues with G-d asking questions of the satan, and the satan doing his best to present Job in a less than favorable light. This is the basis for their relationship. G-d is the Judge, and the satan is the prosecuting attorney--in fact, the word satan means accuser (sometimes it is translated as adversary, but accuser is more accurate for his role).

Note that he must report directly to G-d and only does what G-d tells him to do. The satan is an angel, and as such has no free will. He has one job to do, and that is to find the bad in people and present it in the Heavenly Court. He is mentioned elsewhere as well, and he is present every time a person is put in a dangerous situation. The other famous example is when Abraham was thrown into the furnace. The satan tried to present evidence for why Abraham should not be spared, but there was none, so G-d ruled against the satan.

I don't know where you got your information, but it is blatantly false. You really should check your sources and read things before you just post stuff. I hope no one reads your post and takes it as accurate.
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I really can't help you. I'm not a Biblical scholar. I'm just a happy amateur with an interest in this. I am married to an Israeli Jew and this description doesn't go against what she was taught. So I'm safe at home at least But as I said, I'm not the expert, so I can't really argue the point. Karen Armstrong in her book The history of God does back me up. She describes the Jewish shift step by step, from pagan Sumerian roots, to henotheism, and then finally to monotheism. She on the other hand, is an expert. I recommend her book. She won lots of scholarly awards for it, so she must have gotten something right.

That's nice. I don't need help. I'm an Orthodox Jew who studies the Bible every day. Your wife is probably a nice person, but she was taught wrong. Satan is very clearly in the Bible, and I showed you just a few examples of where. He is also all over the Midrash and Gemara.

As far as Karen Armstrong goes, her book is entirely inaccurate if that's what it says. Just because it is in print doesn't mean it is true--you have to actually look at the source(s). There are plenty of books that say Jews boil the blood of Xtians to make matzo or caused 9/11. Does that make it true?

As a disclaimer, I will say that I believe people should respect all religions (without exception), and this is in no way an attempt to start some religious bashing of any kind.

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Could we just cool it please?

Seems to me there is a lot of interpretation involved when it comes to the Bible as well as other religious texts. Even when scholarship is wrong (or right) there's no reason to take it personally, nor is it needful to criticize anyone's spouse (even if such criticism is justified).

Tracing the idea of Satan and Demons and Hell, and the worship of such entities is more along the lines of what the original poster is asking--that, and anything genuinely involving "dark" magic or occult associated with demonology, satanism or Evil (depending of course upon the POV of those involved).

I don't care about other religious beliefs (meaning other people are welcome to have them). I just don't like it when people post "facts" that have no basis in reality. I'm sorry intellectual honesty is important to me. Someone posted some stuff that is completely wrong, and I corrected it with sources. That's it. Period.

foreverstamp said:

I think fiction readers are bored with the stereotypes of “draw a pentagram and shake some goat’s blood or make a deal with the devil while standing in at a crossroads wearing a severed ear from an albino porkypine… blah blah…” I want to find something relatively unknown. Or less-known. A tid bit of theology, interwoven with mysticism that I can build off.

I’m getting some good Idea’s here and from the links provided, so please keep them coming.

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Yay! I'm so tired of reading books where the pentagram or pentacle is misrepresented and witches are inherently evil (because we're not). Thank you.