Reverse Snobbery

Nothing to discuss with me, I'm afraid. I agree wholeheartedly! Can't add anything except a big thumbs up.

Ditto!

CaroGirl said:

As someone who prefers challenging, literary novels, I was really drawn to Nathan's blog post yesterday:

http://blog.nathanbransford.com/



I completely agree with his take on this issue. Anyone interested in discussing?

Click to expand...

I agree but I also think the opposite can be true as well- Literary writers tend to view genre writers as substandard IMO- I read literary writing but don't enjoy much of what I have read- not because it is difficult- I think I'm fairly intelligent, but because I simply did not enjoy it- I read and write for that matter for pleasure and entertainment. Some will argue that is the reason they read literature and I say wonderful!
But give me a great detective or mystery any day. But don't think poorly of me because of that (not you CG

Just my little 'ol 2 cents

sheadakota said:

I agree but I also think the opposite can be true as well- Literary writers tend to view genre writers as substandard IMO-

Click to expand...

I don't think this is true - or at least i'd hope not! I think its the literary 'critics' rather than writers that look down on genre writers (and vice versa).

Personally i love both literary and genre books - and would love to write in both areas. I wish this whole either/or west side story would end.

Good writing is good writing!

I'm going over to give Nathan a virtual smooch or high-five or... I dunno... something.

I have a question to add to this. Do you think it is possible to write great lit. in a genre? Did not Poe do this? (As an example.)

For some reason I always get the impression that great lit. has to be a bit on the stuffy side. I, for one, and only my opinion, feel that any genre can be done very well. Maybe even be carried over to the coming generations as a must read. Maybe I have the wrong out look of what true lit. is. There are many of the classics that have stood the test of time. I wonder what we have seen in the last 30 years would ever fall into that? In my great-great grand kiddies school....what will the 'must read' books be? Only time will tell.

It might also be said of that in any of the art industry. What paintings will be hailed as great? What movies? What musical pieces? The eye of the beholder will truly be put to the test.

I just believe in giving of your best, whatever your genre.

I agree. Tana French, right now, is writing very literary crime fiction. In The Woods and The Likeness are absolutely gorgeously written, but very grippy, plotty, with body counts.

ETA - And she's a bestseller. So, someone wants to read this stuff.

sheadakota said:

I agree but I also think the opposite can be true as well- Literary writers tend to view genre writers as substandard IMO- I read literary writing but don't enjoy much of what I have read- not because it is difficult- I think I'm fairly intelligent, but because I simply did not enjoy it- I read and write for that matter for pleasure and entertainment. Some will argue that is the reason they read literature and I say wonderful!
But give me a great detective or mystery any day. But don't think poorly of me because of that (not you CG

Just my little 'ol 2 cents

Click to expand...

Indeed. The reverse is very much true.

scarletpeaches said:

I just believe in giving of your best, whatever your genre.

Click to expand...

I'm with you there. I always try to make the characters/writing/story/plot and so forth as best as I can possibly get it. Horror especially in movies gets bloodied a lot because there are so many misconceptions about what horror has to be, that characterization and story are often lost to blood and gore.

I like to read the comments on Amazon for books such as Dan Brown's new one. There are a hell of a lot of 5 star reviews along the lines of it's entertaining and that's what matters. Who cares if he's not a great writer when he can get people reading?*

The implication (to me, at least) is that good writing is a different issue to a good and entertaining story. It's as if a book has to be one and not the other.

I'll aim for both in my work.

*This isn't meant to start a Dan Brown debate. Just using The Brown as an example.

emilycross said:

I don't think this is true - or at least i'd hope not! I think its the literary 'critics' rather than writers that look down on genre writers (and vice versa).

Click to expand...

Oh, it's definitely true. They pop up here from time to time to talk about how us genre writers are ruining the English language and how no one reads good writing any more (usually defined as their unpublished novels).

Perks said:

I agree. Tana French, right now, is writing very literary crime fiction. In The Woods and The Likeness are absolutely gorgeously written, but very grippy, plotty, with body counts.

ETA - And she's a bestseller. So, someone wants to read this stuff.

Click to expand...

I LOVE those books. Fantastic.

GAH! That's another two to add to Mount TBR.

Stop suggesting books, people!

I'm a fan of anything that attempts to raise the quality of writing. The people who can be called 'reverse snobs' are even more annoying than the regular snobs. The regular snobs can at least point to the quality of the work they love and make insults and judgments based on the perceived intelligence of the writer or reader who enjoys that style. The reverse snobs have no argument to make, except for "the only thing that matters is the story", which simply isn't true. Every writer knows that how the story is told matters, though to what degree is debatable. Reverse snobs defend some of the trashiest writing because they refuse to admit that they are settling for something other than the best. It's a delusion.

Of course you can write genre fiction that is also "literary." And it's no surprise that readers will go for it. The average reader isn't too "stupid" to read lit fic -- he just wants to feel sure it will entertain him with a ripping good story.

It's the supposed lack of ripping good stories that turns many people off lit fic. Just as it's the supposed lack of quality writing that turns many people off genre.

Phaeal said:

Of course you can write genre fiction that is also "literary." And it's no surprise that readers will go for it. The average reader isn't too "stupid" to read lit fic -- he just wants to feel sure it will entertain him with a ripping good story.

It's the supposed lack of ripping good stories that turns many people off lit fic. Just as it's the supposed lack of quality writing that turns many people off genre.

Click to expand...

Oh I agree- the two can live very happily together- the pity is some don't think genre writing can be literary- not me- I love beautiful writing that can tell a story- Michael Connelly, IMO writes beautifuly, what I would consider introspective and yes literary, he also writes detective novels. His narritive descriptions of LA is stunning and passionette.

I hate it when people disparage literary writing.

CaroGirl said:

But I don't think they often recognize that the reverse is also true,

Click to expand...

Really?

I've found the amount of ill-judged and ignorant prejudice directed at writers who dare to attempt anything more than 'boy kills baddie to win girl' is not only prevalent, but openly condoned.

I was reading these posts of Nathan's just this morning, and was thinking of starting just such a thread!

sheadakota said:

I agree but I also think the opposite can be true as well- Literary writers tend to view genre writers as substandard IMO- I read literary writing but don't enjoy much of what I have read- not because it is difficult-

Just my little 'ol 2 cents

Click to expand...

Actually, Nathan's post was in response to another blog-post which went th eother way around, and in the comments thread a lot of people piled on to the literary writers. It was pretty snobbish.

I made an alarming discovery recently. I have a soft spot for Dick Francis, a prolific author who writes crime novels set in the racing world. At various times in my life, over the past couple years, I've read some of his books on and off.

About two weeks ago I borrowed a pile of Dick Francis books from the library. In one of them, I found I "knew" in advance what was going to happen. Only about halfway through the book I realised that I had read it already - due to a very obvious event in the book. ABout a week later, it happened again, and this time I was prepared. I kept asking myself: do I recognise these characters@ Have I read this book before? I really wasn't sure, but again it turned out that yes, I HAD read it before.

The thing is-- with such light reading, you forget the book as soon as you close it. They are indeed memorable, but ultimately forgettable. Not much sticks. They leave no trace.

A good literary book, however, is unforgettable. Unique.
As for me, I hope to combine the two in my writing. I like to entertain, but if that was ALL I did I would just stop writing. I want to do so much more with my writing; but I like the "so much more" to be between the lines, not stuffed down people's throat.

I am the worst of both worlds, I'm a snob on both sides. I want good storytelling, psychological and moral depth, elegant prose, characters I care for... So cheap genre writing bores me with its formulas and its shallowness, cheap literary writing bores me with its artificial angst and pretentiousness. But give me some truly great writing and I will not care at all if it's literary or genre or even which genre. My favourite reads over the last few years have included science fiction, paranormal detective, literary, historical fantasy, a thriller or two, and women's fiction.

It doesn't have to be truly great for me to enjoy it, just like not every meal has to be a gourmet extravaganza. But I still expect a certain standard, no matter what. I'll tolerate a few failings if they're offset by some very strong elements elsewhere. It's funny how a second reading can tilt me one way or another. Recently I tried reading a somewhat flawed book a second time and found the flaws to be increasingly irritating. I gave up. Another had the opposite effect: the strengths captivated me so much more that the flaws receded into the background.

Having said all that, blind snobbery on either side is really, really irritating. When any work is rejected on the basis of a label, rather than its quality, that is just stupid.

Having said that... OK, OK, I'll quit.