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aadams73
07-19-2005, 02:08 AM
Spoiler warnings spoiler warnings
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More spoiler warnings
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And even more warnings.



Holy crapola! I cannot cannot cannot believe Snape killed Dumbledore. How can this be??

And I'm glad Ginny and Harry finally hooked up!

Honey Nut Loop
07-19-2005, 02:10 AM
i KNOW!!!! But i'm pretty sure Snape will redeem himself in the seventh book though. There must be a reason why Dumbledore trusted him after all.


I never thought Dumbledore would die. Never ever.

Honey Nut Loop
07-19-2005, 02:11 AM
Oh and also WHEN is Ron going to ask Hermione out? It is inevitable me thinks no matter what anyone else says.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 02:13 AM
Just a word of advice here:

If someone happens to slide their cursor over the heading of this thread, the first few sentences will be revealed -- which means someone will know immediately the largest spoiler this book had to offer.

aadams73
07-19-2005, 02:18 AM
Fixed the problem, thanks katiemac.

aadams73
07-19-2005, 02:31 AM
i KNOW!!!! But i'm pretty sure Snape will redeem himself in the seventh book though. There must be a reason why Dumbledore trusted him after all.



I suspect that Snape will finally redeem himself by saving Harry--I firmly believe Snape was in love with Lily Evans/Potter. All the info about her being such a good potions student can't have been in there for naught.

aadams73
07-19-2005, 02:32 AM
Oh and also WHEN is Ron going to ask Hermione out? It is inevitable me thinks no matter what anyone else says.

Poor won-won. :roll: I too think those two are destined to end up together.

Sarita
07-19-2005, 03:34 AM
First of all, I loved the book. Finished it in 2 sittings. Good stuff.

Katie and I were just talking about this. I've been in Snapes court all this time. At first I felt really betrayed. I know, I'm strange but I just didn't think he could do something SO rotten. After talking to a few people and reading a few key passages over, I think there's WAY more than meets the eye with Snape and Dumbledore. I'm not ready to give up on him yet. I'll let Katie tell you her theories.

Here's one of mine: RAB is Regulus Black. First of all, the initials fit. Second of all, he was killed for finding out "something". Yeah, we know what it is. Horcrux. Discuss. :)

aadams73
07-19-2005, 03:36 AM
Here's one of mine: RAB is Regulus Black. First of all, the initials fit. Second of all, he was killed for finding out "something". Yeah, we know what it is. Horcrux. Discuss. :)

Yes, I absolutely agree about the RAB.

Re the horcrux--is it possible that Harrys scar is one?

Sarita
07-19-2005, 03:47 AM
Yes, Adams! That's exactly what I was thinking. I know it has to be a person of some sort since Dumbledore said that it would be more complicated to use a living thing as a horcrux. That was a big tip off! My sister says that it's just Harry himself.

aadams73
07-19-2005, 03:53 AM
GMTA! And it would fit perfectly with that whole "neither can live while the other is alive" part of the prophecy.

Sarita
07-19-2005, 03:55 AM
I know! And it would fit into "something from Gryffindor" :) What do you think the other items are? He still needs something from Ravenclaw, if we go with the locket from Slytherin and the cup from Hufflepuff. The Ring was already taken care of and Dumbledore thought Nagini...

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 05:46 AM
I've been in Snapes court all this time. ... I think there's WAY more than meets the eye with Snape and Dumbledore.

Here's one of mine: RAB is Regulus Black. First of all, the initials fit. Second of all, he was killed for finding out "something". Yeah, we know what it is. Horcrux. Discuss. :)
Agreed on all. Has to be Regulus.

I think Dumbledore knew about Snape's oath and basically told him, "If it comes down to someone killing me, you have to do it." They had that fight in the woods that Hagrid overheard, where Snape was saying he "didn't want to do it anymore" -- which I took to mean the evil charade. He was fearful at having had to take the Unbrekable Oath and what he might have to do because of it. I also think Dumbledore wanted Snape to prevent Draco from becoming a murderer. And clearly Dumbledore didn't want Harry hurting either of them or being hurt. He was willing to give himself up to protect the students and wanted Snape to remain undercover.

Poor Snape. So misunderstood. :) I'm glad he finally got the DAtDA job, but like all the other teachers, it was a one-year position. That was a nice touch.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 05:49 AM
Re the horcrux--is it possible that Harrys scar is one?

I am having a bit of a problem with the Harry-as-Horcrux theory. Might have on think on that for a while. It's a very interesting theory, but (a) Wouldn't it create kind of a problem on Voldemort's part in that he can't kill the person most out to get him [Harry] if Harry ends up being the last Horcrux around? (b) I can see his selecting one living thing, the snake, as a Horcrux, but isn't putting two of your seven Horcrux-eggs into that basket excessively risky? [Not that we know the snake is one; the single living thing might simply be Harry/his scar.], (c) If Voldemort has a piece of himself in Harry, you'd think he'd have known a lot more about what the Dumbledore crowd was up to all the time, and (d) Dumbles said something in this latest book about how Harry was not adversly affected by seeing into Voldemort's mind, but the reverse wasn't true; that second half wouldn't make much sense if Voldemort stashed a bit off himself in Harry [in his scar, or wherever it lives].

On the other hand, it would explain (a) Why Harry is alive, and (b) Why Voldemort doesn't want any of his minions to kill Harry. AND when Harry finds out, he would have to either cut that scar out of his forehead and destroy it [if that would even do the trick] or commit suicide [or beg Ron to kill him - my prediction if Harry IS the Horcrux].

Sarita
07-19-2005, 05:50 AM
I think if Harry's the horcrux, Snape will be the one to kill him.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 05:54 AM
Now, for my big whoa! moment.

Snape is the Half-Blood Prince!?!?!?!

I thought for the entire book that Voldemort was going to be the Half-Blood Prince. It did not occur to me for more than a nanosecond that it was Snape. So although I won a bet with a friend on the "who gets killed off" front [She said Ron; I have been saying for years that Dumbly was a goner, sorry.], I did not see the HBP reveal coming. Not even with all of the potions connections. I was delighted to not have guessed that one. I thought J.K. was just being obvious with her delving into Voldemort's Muggle relations.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 05:55 AM
I think if Harry's the horcrux, Snape will be the one to kill him.
Do you think Dumbledore knew/suspected that Harry was one of the Horcruxes [??plural?] then?

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 06:05 AM
Here's one of mine: RAB is Regulus Black. First of all, the initials fit. Second of all, he was killed for finding out "something". Yeah, we know what it is. Horcrux. Discuss. :)

So [agreeing with that guess], this suggests that Voldemort discovered that RAB took the real locket, but that he wasn't aware that RAB had planted a fake in its place -- that he found out some other way. Maybe he caught him outside the cave, or maybe someone squealed on RAB? Or, RAB was caught in the act of destroying the locket.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 06:08 AM
In Sorceror's Stone, Dumbledore said that even if he could remove Harry's scar, he woudn't. Scars can be very useful -- but I'm betting that's because Dumbledore figured there may have been a connection between Harry and Voldemort, not because of a Horcrux.

If one of the Horcrux turns out to be another person, I've decided it can't be Harry, for a couple of reasons. But, imagine the genius here, and Voldemort probably would have known this: Can you take an innocent person's life if it means stopping the bad guy? Easier said than done, especially if it's one of your pals. I have a theory, going back to Chamber of Secrets, it could be Ginny.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 06:10 AM
Maybe he caught him outside the cave, or maybe someone squealed on RAB? Or, RAB was caught in the act of destroying the locket.

Or maybe he was killed in the process of destroying it. Dumbledore said one of the only reasons he didn't end up worse off than his hand when he destroyed the ring was because of Snape.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 06:12 AM
Or maybe he was killed in the process of destroying it. Dumbledore said one of the only reasons he didn't end up worse off than his hand when he destroyed the ring was because of Snape.
That would make sense. I suppose if the "wrong"" person found him, they might be able to deduce what he'd done.

Sarita
07-19-2005, 06:14 AM
Yeah, Katie. I really like your Ginny theory. I can see how that would work out really well. Voldemort would know that his relationship with the Weasley's could never be the same if he had to kill Ginny. And they are his only "family" left, really.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 06:16 AM
Yeah, Katie. I really like your Ginny theory. I can see how that would work out really well. Voldemort would know that his relationship with the Weasley's could never be the same if he had to kill Ginny. And they are his only "family" left, really.
Plus, Harry thinks he's protected her by breaking up with her. Which would prove to be horribly, ironically, untrue.

robeiae
07-19-2005, 06:17 AM
But who shot J.R.????

Rob :)

katiemac
07-19-2005, 06:20 AM
And they are his only "family" left, really.

I've always deduced that there's far too many of them for them all to get out unscathed. I kind of figured Ron was doomed, but now I've changed my mind.

Sarita
07-19-2005, 06:21 AM
But who shot J.R.????I thought it was Bobby, but turns out Kristen did it.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 06:27 AM
I've always deduced that there's far too many of them for them all to get out unscathed. I kind of figured Ron was doomed, but now I've changed my mind.
And they keep having those close calls but surviving.

I did agree with my aunt [the "friend" with whom I made the previously mentioned bet] that if one of the kids was getting the axe, it had to be Ron. I still think he's lined up to do something heroic and fatal in the last book; I just didn't think his card was up in Book 6.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 06:37 AM
I just didn't think his card was up in Book 6.

I figured someone big had to go in book six, and up until I got my hands on it I was sort of betting on Ron. It wasn't until I started reading that I changed my mind to Snape after Chapter 2, which was even more solidified once I realized he was the Prince.

Like Ron, I still think Snape's got something heroic up is sleeve. I don't know what it's going to take for Harry to finally trust him, and I already told Sara I'm nervous Harry's going to kill him before the truth comes out. There's only three people I can think of to convince Harry on Snape's good side, and they would have been Dumbledore, Sirius... or Draco.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 06:49 AM
There's only three people I can think of to convince Harry on Snape's good side, and they would have been Dumbledore, Sirius... or Draco.
... or maybe Lily, if she cropped up somehow.

This book made me wonder if Draco might take a turn for the better. But he still loathes Harry. He may be a loudmouthed bully who can't really walk the walk when it comes to real evil -- but that doesn't mean he's going to 'elp 'arry Pottah.

Sarita
07-19-2005, 06:50 AM
I bet he does help, out of guilt for cornering Dumbledore. I think there's hope for Draco.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 06:53 AM
I bet he does help, out of guilt for cornering Dumbledore. I think there's hope for Draco.
Quite possible. Although he will not want anyone on Voldemort's side to know he almost gave in to the good guys. He's going to pretend he set up Dumbledore and was about to "do it" when Snape charged in -- at least to the other side.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 06:53 AM
Right. I doubt they'll be best of friends, but they'll end up working together somehow.

I was kind of shocked to find out Snape really was a Death Eater the first time around. I thought all along he'd always been a double agent, but I guess he really was a baddie. I don't think it could have been the deaths of Harry's parents alone, though, that turned him around. With the introduction of Snape's mother, I doubt we've heard the last of his family.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 06:57 AM
I was kind of shocked to find out Snape really was a Death Eater the first time around. I thought all along he'd always been a double agent, but I guess he really was a baddie. I don't think it could have been the deaths of Harry's parents alone, though, that turned him around. With the introduction of Snape's mother, I doubt we've heard the last of his family.
Me, too. I thought he was just a teacher-villain, not a real one. And it would only be Lily's death that would bum him out. You know he's not faking his hatred of James Potter -- or everything about Harry that's just like his dad. Snape may be a double agent, but he definitely hates the golden-boy Potters and how they got away with so much.

alanna
07-19-2005, 06:58 AM
My first reaction on finishing the book was-


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Much mental scraeming ensued. I'm going back now to finish reading the thread.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 07:00 AM
Anyone else having trouble reading the books without seeing the characters as the film actors now? I DEFINITELY see Alan Rickman and even hear his voice and read Snape as though it's him. Ron, too.

Not so much with Harry and Hermione, though. And I never replaced my imaginary Dumbledore with either movie version. Neither was close enough to what I had pictured.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 07:01 AM
My first reaction on finishing the book was-

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

About Dumbledore? About the book being over? What sent you over the edge?

katiemac
07-19-2005, 07:02 AM
Ah, so you think Snape was in love with Lily? And then Dumbledore would have known his feelings... her regrettable death turned him around.

Interesting. As for her cropping back up, though, unless it's something again like that reverse-wand situation, I don't think we'll be hearing from her again. Dumbledore's portrait (and chocolate frog cards?) makes me curious, though. I've always wondered just how much those portraits are like the real person. And what about those talking mirrors from Phoenix? Think they're gone, or they'll have another appearance?

Sarita
07-19-2005, 07:04 AM
Yes, Rickman is so convincing. I read up to book 5 before seeing the movies and I'm now having a hard time seeing myself read them without Rickman as Snape. I've always been good at making up what characters look like myself, they rarely satisfy what I've developed. :) Oh well.

alanna
07-19-2005, 07:06 AM
... or maybe Lily, if she cropped up somehow.

This book made me wonder if Draco might take a turn for the better. But he still loathes Harry. He may be a loudmouthed bully who can't really walk the walk when it comes to real evil -- but that doesn't mean he's going to 'elp 'arry Pottah.

I thought that the possibility was open- until Harry scarred him. Now I think Draco is irrevocably on the Death-Eater's side, just because Harry isn't. Possibly, Draco will be faced with killing one of Harry's friends as a way to make up for hesitating with Dumbledore, but will not follow through...we'll see.

But then again, I thought Harry was going to turn out to be a dark Wizard, taught by Dumbledore, and that Neville was going to have to fight and kill him. ::shrug::

Shadow Otenaki
07-19-2005, 07:10 AM
I'm going by my farfetched theory that Dumbledor will be back all younger and kickass and stuff. Phoenixes and all. =P

OR that it was all just an act, bwahahahah... >.>;

Well, I did say it was farfetched. xD

Sarita
07-19-2005, 07:15 AM
I'm going by my farfetched theory that Dumbledor will be back all younger and kickass and stuff. Phoenixes and all. =P Like Gandalf? I hope she doesn't do that. Not that I wouldn't want to see Dumbledore again, but....

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 07:18 AM
Ah, so you think Snape was in love with Lily? And then Dumbledore would have known his feelings... her regrettable death turned him around.
That flashback from Chamber of Secrets, I think it was [or maybe it was #3?], where Harry sees James being, basically an a-hole to Snape and you get a sense of why Snape really didn't like the senior Potter ... I did get that impression -- that he thought Lily was too good for Potter.


As for her cropping back up, though, unless it's something again like that reverse-wand situation, I don't think we'll be hearing from her again.
I was thinking either flashback, or big magical whatsit event where Harry gets to see his parents again. i'm thinking he's due for one lasst chat before the end of the series.

Dumbledore's portrait (and chocolate frog cards?) makes me curious, though. I've always wondered just how much those portraits are like the real person. And what about those talking mirrors from Phoenix? Think they're gone, or they'll have another appearance?

Me, too. I thought it was interesting that right after Dumbledore was killed, his portrait was "sleeping." But next time Potter visits McGonagall [if there is a next time - since he claims he's not going back to school], will Dumbledore be chiming in to the conversation?

I still think Harry will be able to communicate with Sirius through that mirror he received and broke in the last book. Why show what it is and mention what it does if he never uses it? It really bothered me that he had that all through the last book and never opened/used it.

alanna
07-19-2005, 07:18 AM
You never know, Dumbledore may have a Horcrux or two of his own. I mean, he does scare Voldemort- and that might not just be because he's the only one who really knows his past. I still think that he was one of Voldemort's major teachers in the dark arts. Come on, that gleam of triumph in book four can't have been for nothing!

katiemac
07-19-2005, 07:18 AM
Nope. I doubt she will. Despite all the magic, that's part of the realism of the books -- death is death. I think it's been established already that even the best of wizards can't come back from the dead. I do hope, though, we haven't seen the end of Fawkes.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 07:19 AM
Come on, that gleam of triumph in book four can't have been for nothing!

I've been wondering about that all along, but I've deduced that now it means Dumbledore knew he was right -- Voldemort had made Horcruxes, so there is a way to stop him.

alanna
07-19-2005, 07:20 AM
I think Fawkes will become Harry's pheonix, personally.

alanna
07-19-2005, 07:21 AM
I've been wondering about that all along, but I've deduced that now it means Dumbledore knew he was right -- Voldemort had made Horcruxes, so there is a way to stop him.

Maybe so. I think it was because Voldemort had foudn a way to return, which proved that the Horcruxes would work, which meant that Dumbledore could return himself if he so chose.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 07:22 AM
Like Gandalf? I hope she doesn't do that. Not that I wouldn't want to see Dumbledore again, but....
The Gandalf template is one of the reasons that I thought Dumbledore had to die. Not necessarily that he is going to come back -- although the Phoenix connection definitely increases that possibility -- but that for Harry to come into his own against Voldemort, Dumbledore can't be there to help him anymore. He has to struggle forth on his own without that guardian. That said, Dumbledore bein tight with a Phoenix and so willing to die does suggest that he's able to come back.No one's said that there isn't a non-Dark Magic way to be reborn.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 07:23 AM
Why show what it is and mention what it does if he never uses it? It really bothered me that he had that all through the last book and never opened/used it.

Same here. Unless, now, it was only to show how it could have been stopped -- sort of how Dumbledore didn't have to die for the fake Horcrux. Sirius will stay dead, but until we really know what happened with that veil, something interesting could allow them to communicate.

I don't think Harry's going to go back to school, but undoubtedly he'll at least visit Hogwarts, and especially the office. And Dumbledore's portrait will be wide awake.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 07:25 AM
I think Fawkes will become Harry's pheonix, personally.
You don't think Hedwig might get jealous? Love, love, love Hedwig.

alanna
07-19-2005, 07:26 AM
But Dumbledore's portrait has nothing to do with him being alive- unless it was a Horcrux itself. THe chocolate frog had portraits of dead people also, and they were as talkative as ever! However, a converstaion with Dumbledore's portrait would be interesting...

katiemac
07-19-2005, 07:27 AM
Dumbledore can't be there to help him anymore. He has to struggle forth on his own without that guardian. That said, Dumbledore bein tight with a Phoenix and so willing to die does suggest that he's able to come back.No one's said that there isn't a non-Dark Magic way to be reborn.

There have been long running trends in the book which say as long as Dumbledore was around, Harry would be safe and Voldemort couldn't and wouldn't touch him. So, unfortunately, Dumbledore had to go.


Maybe so. I think it was because Voldemort had foudn a way to return, which proved that the Horcruxes would work, which meant that Dumbledore could return himself if he so chose.

Maybe. But I think you're forgetting a couple of things. First, in order to create a Horcrux, you have to kill someone. I don't think that was in Dumbledore. Second, Voldemort never "died." He just lost his body and the Horcruxes allowed him to remain immortal until he returned to a body. Third, Dumbledore is definitely dead. Harry thought so himself when he was released from the curse, and his body is still around unlike Voldemort's was.

alanna
07-19-2005, 07:27 AM
You don't think Hedwig might get jealous? Love, love, love Hedwig.

I love Hedwig too! And wouldn't that be an interesting conflict...

katiemac
07-19-2005, 07:28 AM
Sadly, Hedwig was a very noticable absence in this one.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 07:29 AM
Same here. Unless, now, it was only to show how it could have been stopped -- sort of how Dumbledore didn't have to die for the fake Horcrux. Sirius will stay dead, but until we really know what happened with that veil, something interesting could allow them to communicate.

I was never convinced that the veil = death, that Sirius was, categorically, dead. Might just be an alternate reality, a soul prison or something. I don't see why Potter couldn't have tried to talk to Sirius through that mirror after it happened. But then he's not reading the book; we are.


I don't think Harry's going to go back to school, but undoubtedly he'll at least visit Hogwarts, and especially the office. And Dumbledore's portrait will be wide awake.
Although it's been noted that death is real in Rowling's world, those dead people have a lot more to say than most dead people. I think she just didn't want us to have the "Dumbledore's OK" feeling at the end of the book; she wanted us to feel as though he was gone and linger on that for a while. So the portrait had to be inactive.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 07:30 AM
Sadly, Hedwig was a very noticable absence in this one.
I know. Just a little at the beginning. Then a lousy letter delivery. Boo.

alanna
07-19-2005, 07:30 AM
Maybe. But I think you're forgetting a couple of things. First, in order to create a Horcrux, you have to kill someone. I don't think that was in Dumbledore. Second, Voldemort never "died." He just lost his body and the Horcruxes allowed him to remain immortal until he returned to a body. Third, Dumbledore is definitely dead. Harry thought so himself when he was released from the curse, and his body is still around unlike Voldemort's was.

::shrug:: you never know. I like my little theories- even if they prove to be wrong, they're fun to speculate! And for the record, I also think that Ginny will refuse to be left behind. Either that, or Harry will leave Ron and Hermione behind. There's no way that GInny would let them leave her behind if the other two were going. Personally, I think Ginny and Harry will get married. ::sigh:: the romantic in me hopes she'll ask him.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 07:31 AM
I don't ksee why Potter couldn't have tried to talk to Sirius through that mirror after it happened

Actually, I do believe he did, and they didn't work. Something about Sirius not having the second mirror when he went through to the other side. What I don't get is why he hasn't tried to barrel his way back into the Department of Ministries and listen to those voices behind the veil. I do believe he's dead, but it was such a bizarre and uninformative way to go we can't say for sure what he can or can't do.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 07:38 AM
Maybe. But I think you're forgetting a couple of things. First, in order to create a Horcrux, you have to kill someone. I don't think that was in Dumbledore.
Agreed. I would think he's killed people in the battle against evil, but not for personal gain.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 08:04 AM
Actually, I do believe he did, and they didn't work. Something about Sirius not having the second mirror when he went through to the other side.
Ah, OK. I didn't remember that. I should re-read it. I just felt like the mirror was underutilized. Therefore, I expect it to crop up again.


What I don't get is why he hasn't tried to barrel his way back into the Department of Ministries and listen to those voices behind the veil. I do believe he's dead, but it was such a bizarre and uninformative way to go we can't say for sure what he can or can't do.
Yeah, it wasn't very definitive. Hence my thought that Sirius can come back and give Harry the parent figure he craves.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 08:15 AM
By the way, mkc, I just wanted to pass on my condolences. I know you and Vote_Bot were close.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 08:42 AM
By the way, mkc, I just wanted to pass on my condolences. I know you and Vote_Bot were close.
That's so nice of you to say. Yeah, the news hit me pretty hard. I guess it just looked like he was going to make it. I couldn't help but get my hopes up. And then ... It wasn't unexpected. We all knew what his condition was. But it's still a shock when it happens. One day at a time. One day at a time....

aadams73
07-19-2005, 01:14 PM
Now, for my big whoa! moment.

Snape is the Half-Blood Prince!?!?!?!

I

I suspected it because of the potions thing, but I was sure I was way off base.

aadams73
07-19-2005, 01:15 PM
I know! And it would fit into "something from Gryffindor" :) What do you think the other items are? He still needs something from Ravenclaw, if we go with the locket from Slytherin and the cup from Hufflepuff. The Ring was already taken care of and Dumbledore thought Nagini...

Ohhh I have no idea. I'm going to have to reread the book this week and see if there are clues ;)

aadams73
07-19-2005, 01:17 PM
I am having a bit of a problem with the Harry-as-Horcrux theory. Might have on think on that for a while. It's a very interesting theory, but (a) Wouldn't it create kind of a problem on Voldemort's part in that he can't kill the person most out to get him [Harry] if Harry ends up being the last Horcrux around? (b) I can see his selecting one living thing, the snake, as a Horcrux, but isn't putting two of your seven Horcrux-eggs into that basket excessively risky? [Not that we know the snake is one; the single living thing might simply be Harry/his scar.], (c) If Voldemort has a piece of himself in Harry, you'd think he'd have known a lot more about what the Dumbledore crowd was up to all the time, and (d) Dumbles said something in this latest book about how Harry was not adversly affected by seeing into Voldemort's mind, but the reverse wasn't true; that second half wouldn't make much sense if Voldemort stashed a bit off himself in Harry [in his scar, or wherever it lives].


Perhaps their is some wonky spell that Voldemort can do so he can retrieve the part of his soul, but he has to do it as Harry is dying? Or maybe it's different with a person than an object: when the person dies, the piece of the soul is released back to the closest vessel/person. That might explain why Voldemort wants Harry for himself.

aadams73
07-19-2005, 01:19 PM
If one of the Horcrux turns out to be another person, I've decided it can't be Harry, for a couple of reasons. But, imagine the genius here, and Voldemort probably would have known this: Can you take an innocent person's life if it means stopping the bad guy? Easier said than done, especially if it's one of your pals. I have a theory, going back to Chamber of Secrets, it could be Ginny.

Great theory! Afterall, the diary and Ginny were linked pretty intimately. I like this and hate it all at the same time! (because I'm rooting for Ginny and Harry)

PattiTheWicked
07-19-2005, 04:59 PM
First of all, I loved the book. Finished it in 2 sittings. Good stuff.

Katie and I were just talking about this. I've been in Snapes court all this time. At first I felt really betrayed. I know, I'm strange but I just didn't think he could do something SO rotten. After talking to a few people and reading a few key passages over, I think there's WAY more than meets the eye with Snape and Dumbledore. I'm not ready to give up on him yet. I'll let Katie tell you her theories.

Here's one of mine: RAB is Regulus Black. First of all, the initials fit. Second of all, he was killed for finding out "something". Yeah, we know what it is. Horcrux. Discuss. :)

I felt the same way. It's still really hard for me to beleive that he's one of the "bad guys". I'm reasonably certain the whole "Oh my god Professor Snape killed Dumbledore!' scene was a pre-planned setup. They knew Malfoy would never be able to do it, so it would be easy for Snape to step in and "kill" Dumbledore, particularly after making the Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa.

I am convinced that Dumbledore's connection to the Phoenix is more than coincidence. Perhaps in Book 7 he'll return as Dumbledore the White :) I also think Sirius Black will return in the next book, since we don't know for sure where he is, other than "through the veil".

I'm with you on RAB. Regulus Black would be the only person I could think of too. Maybe the Horcrux is located in the piles of debris at Number 12, Grimmauld Place. You know, the stuff Mundungus has been selling on street corners?

PattiTheWicked
07-19-2005, 05:02 PM
I've always deduced that there's far too many of them for them all to get out unscathed. I kind of figured Ron was doomed, but now I've changed my mind.

I'm completely bummed about the whole Bill-mauled-by-a-werewolf thing.

Maybe Percy will buy the farm in Book 7.

PattiTheWicked
07-19-2005, 05:04 PM
Anyone else having trouble reading the books without seeing the characters as the film actors now? I DEFINITELY see Alan Rickman and even hear his voice and read Snape as though it's him. Ron, too.



Did you notice at one point, the "Slug" refers to Ron as Harry's little friend, "Rupert"? I did a double take at first, and then giggled. Because I can't see Ron as anyone BUT Rupert Grint.

Sarita
07-19-2005, 05:07 PM
First off, YAY!!! Patti found us :) Secondly, I thought the little play on names you mention was clever. She's too funny, that JK.


Did you notice at one point, the "Slug" refers to Ron as Harry's little friend, "Rupert"? I did a double take at first, and then giggled. Because I can't see Ron as anyone BUT Rupert Grint.

It probably wont be someone as easy as Percy buying the farm. It'll be someone we LOOOOOVE. Look at who she killed in the last 2.... Dirty author!

Christine N.
07-19-2005, 05:17 PM
Yeah, the Rupert thing made me laugh. I left the book with an unsatisfying feeling of unfinished-ness. Which I suppose is the point. Snape and Dumbledore - no clue what's going on there, but I have hope for Snape for some stupid reason.

I don't want Ginny to die. I don't think she's just going to walk away from Harry though. And I totally agree - RAB is Regulus Black. Absolutely.

Snape was totally in love with Lily Potter.

Lupin and Tonks... kinda had a feeling about that one.

In the last book - Ron and Hermione - neither die, they get married and have kids (JK said there would be "conclusions" about everyone's lives)

Harry turns out all right in the end. And one of the Weasley parents will die, but I haven't decided yet if it's going to be Mr. or Mrs. Weasley.


She's not even going to start book 7 until the end of this year. Must be nice to just be able to do it whenever. LOL.

Now my own WIP seems so dull and uninteresting, I don't even want to write today.

katiemac
07-19-2005, 07:24 PM
For those of you who liked the Ginny theory, there's a little more to it. In Chamber of Secrets, Riddle explains to Harry that Ginny poured a little bit of her soul into him, telling him all her secrets, and he, in order to possess her, poured a little bit of his soul right back.

I nearly had a heart attack when I reread that, looking for clues about Riddle's past. But, there is a flaw -- nobody died, which is something you have to do to make a Horcrux. But I doesn't necessarily specify when you have to kill someone, and we all know Voldemort's done plenty of that.

But... would Riddle be capable of doing that in a diary form? Can a Horcrux, in essence, make a Horcrux? It would explain why the diary was handled so carelessly by Lucius Malfoy... the intent wasn't to open the Chamber (although it didn't hurt) but to make a Horcrux out of a Gryffindor student, as the sword was unavailable.

Hmm. I'm still twisting around this one.

Christine N.
07-19-2005, 07:43 PM
What if the last Horcrux is... the Sorting Hat?? LOL, that just came to me, I don't know where from.

Ok, we've got... the diary (destroyed), the ring (destroyed), the locket (I think IS destroyed, and I don't think the RAB was all that obvious, although with a little thinking you do eventually hit upon it.) and Voldemort himself. These are the four we know. Leaves three, one of which is probably the cup of Ravenclaw. Down to two, one of which may be a living thing...

I don't think it's Ginny, and here's why. Didn't Voldemort have want to have all seven Horcuxes in place before he went after Harry? It's also not Harry's scar, because he was attempting to KILL Harry, so maybe there are only really six, and he failed to make the last one, because it was going to be Harry's death that made it. That plan backfired, so he only had six in all.

I think there's only two Horcuxes left. One of them is Voldemort and the other is the cup.

And I still think it's going to be a Weasley parent. Votes? Mrs. Weasley is a more sympathetic character, to me at least, her death would be a blow. Harry's already lost a father figure, and if she dies, he'll lose another mother.

Honey Nut Loop
07-19-2005, 09:47 PM
I think that as well as Snape, Draco will do something brave and selfless on behalf of Harry's side.

I'm also toying with teh idea that in the end both Harry AND Voldemort will ide (killing each other). 'neither can live while the other survives'? Well it's an idea.

Oh and any thoughts on Aberforth dumbledore's brother? what's he going to do? He's obvisouly the man who runs the Hog's head. For those of you who hadn't wored this out i can back this up with evidence if and when it is necesary.

I'm rather taken with the Ginny horcrux idea because of the quote from CoS and how riddle poured a little of his soul back into her.

Did anyone else pick up on the love potion smelling like Ginny to Harry and then just know they were going to get together?

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 11:49 PM
On the Mr./Mrs. Weasley vote, I have to go with Mr. Weasley. Mrs. Weasley doesn't get out of the house much. Not that Voldemort hasn't offed a fair number of people in their own homes, but Mr. Weasley is in the line of fire far more often. And you'd think their house would be fairly well spell-protected.

mkcbunny
07-19-2005, 11:55 PM
Oh, and I just started re-reading #4 as a refresher both for the upcoming movie and because I haven't read it since it came out. Definitely my favorite. Well, it was. Wee'll see after I re-read. But I'd forgotten that it opens with Voldemort in the old Riddle house.

One thing that confused me, and maybe I have to re-read #6, is that in this last book, wasn't it the case that Marvolo took the blame for killing the Riddles? That Voldy did it but framed Marvolo and gave him false memories of committing the crime? Because Book 4 opens up with a tale about the groundskeeper for the Riddles being falsely arrested, then released, and the townspeople thinking thereafter that he was guity nevertheless. Then the groundskeeper is caught eavesdropping on Voldy and ....

None of that matches up with the Book #6 description of Marvolo confessing to the crime. Am I confused? Well, yes. But am I wrong about the Marvolo crime?

Sarita
07-19-2005, 11:59 PM
Bunny- It's Marvolo's son that gets taken to Azkaban for the crime. I got the impression the conviction came from JUST the wizarding community and didn't have anything to do with the muggles.

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 12:32 AM
Bunny- It's Marvolo's son that gets taken to Azkaban for the crime. I got the impression the conviction came from JUST the wizarding community and didn't have anything to do with the muggles.
Ahhhhhh. Right.

And, duh. Obviously the Muggles wouldn't be aware of the wizarding community's verdict or of anyone being shipped to Azkaban. So Book 4 is the Muggle explanation, and Book 6 the magical one. Silly me.

Christine N.
07-20-2005, 12:49 AM
Actually, we don't know what the Horcrux in the watery cave was. The locket was a fake, as we know. I'm toying with the idea that the potion DD drank was the Horcrux, at least he went through some horrible pain in drinking it.

Oh, and on the number of Horcruxes...according to Dumbledore there'd be 6 Horcruxes in addition to Voldy himself, alltogether 7. He might have been wrong, of course, but 6 would be the number we'd be looking for with the info we have now(and Voldy himself wouldn't be one of those six).

Since there was a fake locket in the bowl, I believe the real locket was the Horcrux, and it was taken by RAB. Why leave a fake one if it doesn't resemble the real one? And the potion wouldn't have been the Horcrux, I don't think, because it was stated that it was an object that the soul had to go into ... unless you consider the potion and object? Maybe.

Dumbledore thinks that seven was the intended number... there was never any proof that he made all seven. I think Harry's murder was supposed to be number seven, and it never panned out. So there were only six, five and Voldemort.

The Ginny thing doesn't make sense to me, b/c the memory was already a Horcrux, and I don't know if you can make a Horcrux out of another Horcrux. AND to make one, you need to kill someone, which never happened.


OH MY GOSH... what if the Horcrux is... Moaning Myrtle???

katiemac
07-20-2005, 01:51 AM
Horcruxes:

1) Diary
2) Snake
3) Ring
4) Locket (Slytherin)
5) Cup (Hufflepuff)
6) Gryffindor
7) Ravenclaw

Destroying those objects makes him mortal again, which is another reason I don't think Harry can be one. If he's a Horcrux, and "dies" (unless he's got a will against it), who kills Voldemort? Dumbledore said something about a final Horcrux being made the night Harry's parents were killed. So ... I wonder if something got left behind at Godric Hollow?

I just had a bizarre thought: think Hogwarts itself could be a Horcrux?

loquax
07-20-2005, 02:44 AM
"The veil" may have an important part to play in all this. JK said she would elaborate on it.... and she didn't.

P.S. Does Voldemort know that his Horcruxes are being destroyed? Because he can very easily make more.....

Christine N.
07-20-2005, 03:29 AM
Good point. Harry says he's going back there first thing after he leaves the Dursleys. Maybe he'll find something there. But I don't know if he actually got to make it before...you know.

He's going to visit his parent's graves. Wonder what he'll find there? We have a while to think about it... she hasn't even started book Seven yet.

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 03:53 AM
Horcruxes:
1) Diary
2) Snake
3) Ring
4) Locket (Slytherin)
5) Cup (Hufflepuff)
6) Gryffindor
7) Ravenclaw

Actually, if Voldemort split his soul into seven pieces, then there are six Horcruxes and himself. He himself is not a Horcrux. What we have definitively is:
1) Diary - destroyed
2) Ring - destroyed
3) Locket (Slytherin) - presumably destroyed
4) Cup (Hufflepuff) - hidden somewhere
5) A slot for another object
6) A slot that we all think might be an animal or a person, but something living
7) Voldemort

The "things" could be from Griffindor or Ravenclaw. The living thing could be the snake or Harry. Or any combination of the above: an object and a living thing, two objects, or two living things, Harry being a Griffindor, as well.


Destroying those objects makes him mortal again, which is another reason I don't think Harry can be one. If he's a Horcrux, and "dies" (unless he's got a will against it), who kills Voldemort? Dumbledore said something about a final Horcrux being made the night Harry's parents were killed.
Here's a theory: What if ... Voldemort intended to kill Harry and make a Horcrux, but when Lily interferred, instead of killing Harry, Voldemort killed Lily and made the Harry-scar Horcrux by accident. Or even that she counter-spelled him and foiled the Horcrux spell. So Harry is the Horcrux, but it was not intentional. Voldemort knows and wants to get his soul back, hence not wanting anyone else to kill the boy, but he didn't intend it to be that way. Some kind of magic-gone-awry situation. That would explain all the illogical bits about why Voldemort would make Harry a Horcrux in the first place. And if he kills Harry, not only does he get his soul piece back, he kills his adversary.


I just had a bizarre thought: think Hogwarts itself could be a Horcrux?
That would certainly cause a big upheaval if they have to destroy the whole school. I can't help thinking that one of the remaining unfound items is at Hogwarts. So many places to stash things there!

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 03:57 AM
P.S. Does Voldemort know that his Horcruxes are being destroyed? Because he can very easily make more.....

Dumbledore suggested that Voldemort did not know when the book was destroyed. However, that doesn't mean that he didn't find out after the fact and replace the ones he knows were damaged. That would give room for both the snake and Harry, as well as an item each from Ravenclaw and Griffindor.
One would think that if he suspects other people know about the Horcruxes, he might be out checking on any stashed objects just to be sure they were still extant -- which may help lead Harry to find them.

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 04:10 AM
Anyone else read Ozma of Oz? the whole Horcrux thing reminds me of the Gnome King enchantments: Which knickknacks are enchanted characters?

I keep thinking of significant objects around Hogwarts, or that we've heard described in the books, and wondering what might be a Horcrux. Or who.

Sarita
07-20-2005, 05:36 AM
I can't help thinking that one of the remaining unfound items is at Hogwarts. So many places to stash things there! Like the room of requirement...

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 05:38 AM
Like the room of requirement...
Good luck finding it in there!

alanna
07-20-2005, 05:45 AM
Anyone else read Ozma of Oz? the whole Horcrux thing reminds me of the Gnome King enchantments: Which knickknacks are enchanted characters?

I keep thinking of significant objects around Hogwarts, or that we've heard described in the books, and wondering what might be a Horcrux. Or who.

Oh my gods, yes! Lol, I just finished reading that book to my brother! I love the whole series...

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 06:02 AM
Top 10 most ridiculous individuals Voldemort might have made into a Horcrux.

1) Mrs. Norris
2) Pick a Dursley, any Dursley
3) Professor Trelawney
4) Hagrid
5) The Fat Lady
6) Neville
7) Nearly Headless Nick
8) Dobby
9) Filch
10) Mrs. Weasley

alanna
07-20-2005, 06:09 AM
Where's the Bloody Baron on that list? Or Peeves? :)

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 06:33 AM
Where's the Bloody Baron on that list? Or Peeves? :)
I figured one Dursley, one Ghost, one cat, one child, one Weasley. :)
Some of the Weasleys and ghosts make sense [Ginny, and the aforementioned Moaning Myrtle, maybe]. Feel free to substitute the BB or Peeves for NHN. Peeves certainly would be silly.

katiemac
07-20-2005, 07:41 AM
I like the idea of Nearly Headless Nick... now if perhaps, had his head been fully severed, it could have been JUST the head. *sigh* Too perfect.

But... yep, I made a mistake earlier. I took the reading to be both something Gryffindor AND Ravenclaw, not one or the other... I knew I was getting an extra one somewhere...

Speaking of Myrtle, was it ever acknowledged what house she was in? I forget.

oneidii
07-20-2005, 06:04 PM
I am impressed with the idea of the Horcrux as Harry--I had just that bombshell right after I finished reading it (read it straight through, cried like a baby, I'm ashamed to say) DUMBLEDORE DEAD! Ah, the horror. I always kind of liked Snape, and then he goes and pulls that. Interesting idea that Dumbly knew about the whole thing and arranged Snape to kill him off if something happened. Interesting. You guys have given me more ideas to think on, now that the wait is on for book 7. SIGH!!

What about Petunia? What does SHE have to do in this whole mess, btw? I didn't miss the guilty attitudes her and Dursley had when Dumbly came to visit. Makes me wonder what is up. Does anybody have a theory on that?? Keep the intrigue coming! :)

Christine N.
07-20-2005, 06:39 PM
See, now I've heard that the seventh book is written, but then I read a recent interview that says she hasn't even started, and won't until the end of the year. I know she's got pages and pages of notes though.

I hate to think that we've gone through all of this just for Harry to die. No way. Every book, almost, has been about good triumphing over evil in the end. If Harry dies, it's all been for nothing. He deserves to live a long and happy life with Ginny Weasley. I never liked Cho.

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 06:48 PM
What about Petunia? What does SHE have to do in this whole mess, btw? I didn't miss the guilty attitudes her and Dursley had when Dumbly came to visit. Makes me wonder what is up. Does anybody have a theory on that?? Keep the intrigue coming! :)
I was just thinking about her. I think she's going to buck up and stand up for her sister's memory at some point. It seems as though she's got a little feeling hidden deep down in there and might at some point break under her husband's anti-magical choke hold. I even wondered if she might have a little magic in her that she surpresses. Maybe she's been self-closeted all these years, disgusted with herself. Maybe not, but I do think she'll have her moment of decency in the last book.

Tirjasdyn
07-20-2005, 08:14 PM
Horcux...

Actually I've read, to date, 7 books with this idea...all slightly different. I've also played several video games with this as well.


Now having said that, the idea has to come from a myth or folktale, but I haven't been able to find it.

The kicker is that my novel has something like this but now I might take it out...I've been writing this book since bofore I started the HP novels.

ack.

dragonjax
07-20-2005, 10:01 PM
Fabulous stuff here, everyone.

I definitely think that Snape and DD were in cahoots, and that DD pleaded with S to kill him at the end, as planned by both, to save Draco, whom V would have killed if DD didn't die. It's just like DD to sacrifice himself to save another. What's more, DD had to die so that HP no longer had someone around to save him/guide him. I'm hoping he'll be more like Obi Wan and Yoda and stay dead, instead of like Gandolf and get reborn.

And now, my predictions for Book Seven:

Looking forward to Snape's heroism finally getting acknolwedged by Harry.

Draco, I'm betting, will pull a Darth Vader and will be the one who kills V, instead of killing Harry. Snape, at this point, will have already died. And Draco will die in the process. (His mother will be the one who kills Bella.)

The scar is an accidental horocrux; V wanted Lilly to be the horocrux (he had already killed James) but in saving Harry, she died and the power/horocrux went to Harry.

Petunia is also a witch, but she doesn't know it. (She uses her powers unintentially doing housework.)

Given all the muggle deaths, Vernon gets what he deserves, and Dudley turns to Harry for help.

Harry and Ginny = true love, get married.

Ron and Hermione = true love, get married.

And, finally, in many years will be the second chronicles of Harry Potter...this time, with him as an adult, and teaching DotDA at Hogwarts.

Sarita
07-20-2005, 10:07 PM
I wonder if Snape will die. I rather fancy him as Headmaster of Hogwarts when all this blows over.

I agree about Petunia. There's something totally cool going on with her, we just don't know it yet.

Christine N.
07-20-2005, 11:00 PM
I agree about Petunia as well. I read somewhere that someone in the series would come to magic late in life, which is extremely unusual, so it's totally possible it's her.

DD left a memory in a phial somewhere explaining about Snape and him, so that Snape won't get in trouble for killing him. He tells everyone the whole story.

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 11:40 PM
I wonder if Snape will die. I rather fancy him as Headmaster of Hogwarts when all this blows over.

I hope not, though I could see him going out as he helps to protect Harry. For him to become head of Hogwarts, something would have to happpen to McGonagall, which I''d prefer did not happen.


I agree about Petunia. There's something totally cool going on with her, we just don't know it yet.
Ditto.

mkcbunny
07-20-2005, 11:45 PM
Draco, I'm betting, will pull a Darth Vader and will be the one who kills V, instead of killing Harry. Snape, at this point, will have already died. And Draco will die in the process. (His mother will be the one who kills Bella.)
I don't see Draco being powerful enough. I could definitelly see Snape doing it, tho.


The scar is an accidental horocrux; V wanted Lilly to be the horocrux (he had already killed James) but in saving Harry, she died and the power/horocrux went to Harry.
What do folks think about this twist: V intended to make Lily a Horcrux and Snape knew. Snape figured it would protect her from harm and wanted James Potter dead. When Lily was killed instead and Harry was made into the Horcrux, Snape abandoned Voldemort.

Of course, this would suggest that Snape and Dumbledore knew all along that Harry was a Horcrux.

That sounds like a third-grade taunt: "Harry is a Horcrux! Harry is a Horcrux!"

Christine N.
07-21-2005, 12:26 AM
Here's another question... does Voldemort KNOW Snape's a half-blood? It seems V has gone more than out of his way to surround himself with purebloods, and purebloods only.

Wonder why he would let Snape be a Death Eater in the first place?

katiemac
07-21-2005, 12:32 AM
does Voldemort KNOW Snape's a half-blood?

It was brought up at some point that it's suspected the majority of the Death Eaters and followers aren't pure bloods... there's not enough families for that to be the case. So, Snape was "playing up" the pure-blood side.

Which brings me to a question I never understood. What makes you a half-blood? Because Harry has been referred to repeatedly as half-blood like Voldemort, but since both of his parents were wizards I figured he was pure. It was only his mother that was muggle-born. Or... is it just a term for anyone who's had any muggle-blood in them at all? Hermione, on the other hand, is referred to as a "Mudblood" for being muggle-born, but as far as I know the term doesn't attach to half-bloods.

Sigh. So confusing.

By the way, I heard the book isn't started yet, but the final chapter is complete and locked away.

mkcbunny
07-21-2005, 02:43 AM
It would be hard for anyone in the wizarding community not to be able to research Snape's background since his sir name reveals the Muggle half. If it had been his mother, he might've been able to bury the info more easily by lying about her name. We, the humble readership, didn't have the benefit of being able to do research and are beholden to what J.K. tells us, but I have to think that Voldy's crew knows.

What struck me as odd was that Voldemort himself was a "Mudblood." I suppose that Lucius Malfoy followed him because he was powerful, but you'd think the most evil wizard out there whom all the Death Eaters worship would be a pureblood.

mkcbunny
07-21-2005, 02:44 AM
... is it just a term for anyone who's had any muggle-blood in them at all?
That's what I thought.

Christine N.
07-21-2005, 03:27 AM
Ah, but how many people REALLY know about V's parentage?? Harry tells them all in GOF, but I don't know how many of them were paying attention. I think the fact that he's the last living relative of Slytherin is all that matters to them.

And here's something else I just thought of - now that DD's dead, does 12, Grimmauld Place all of a sudden become visible to everyone? He was the secret keeper of the OoP, and no one who wasn't the secret keeper could tell where the headquarters was... so I wonder what happens to that?

alanna
07-21-2005, 04:50 AM
::sigh:: I love reading this thread.

Now, I think that Petunia will definitely have a key part to play in the next story- I wonder what she'll say when she finds out that Dumbledore is dead? That should be interesting...

katiemac
07-21-2005, 05:17 AM
Grimmauld Place all of a sudden become visible to everyone? He was the secret keeper of the OoP, and no one who wasn't the secret keeper could tell where the headquarters was... so I wonder what happens to that?

I was under the impression the house was unplottable before the Order took it over and that was a Black family spell. As for the Secret Keeper... I've thought about that, too. I would assume the secret dies with that individual.

I am, however, particuarly worried about Hogwart's defensives. Dumbledore took them down so he and Harry could access the tower as fast as possible -- but was killed before they went back up. I'm not sure if anyone knows, except Harry, that the castle is completely vulnerable, and he didn't tell anyone as far as we know.

katiemac
07-21-2005, 05:24 AM
What struck me as odd was that Voldemort himself was a "Mudblood." I suppose that Lucius Malfoy followed him because he was powerful, but you'd think the most evil wizard out there whom all the Death Eaters worship would be a pureblood.

Something which, I suspect, is Rowling's little jaunt about how completely unnecessary and useless this war is, and how the thirst for power can be blinding. I find the same theme in the fact that Voldemort's muggle-hating came from the fact he believed his father left his mother when he found out she a witch, when in fact we just found out she put a love potion on him. That sheds the bad light on her, not his father.

Oh, irony. I also suspect it's going to give Voldemort a big kick in the gut when Harry tells him. ;)

katiemac
07-21-2005, 05:37 AM
Just realized one thing. While I was looking into a chapter of Phoenix for what was said about Regulus Black, Harry happens to find something of interest in Grimmauld Place. I believe it's chapter 6, and this very interesting piece of information isn't even given a full sentence. Don't miss it. ;)

mkcbunny
07-21-2005, 05:44 AM
Just realized one thing. While I was looking into a chapter of Phoenix for what was said about Regulus Black, Harry happens to find something of interest in Grimmauld Place. I believe it's chapter 6, and this very interesting piece of information isn't even given a full sentence. Don't miss it. ;)
Oh, jeez. Now I have to drop Vol. 4 and go grab Vol. 5!! LOL.

mkcbunny
07-21-2005, 05:51 AM
Ah, but how many people REALLY know about V's parentage?? Harry tells them all in GOF, but I don't know how many of them were paying attention. I think the fact that he's the last living relative of Slytherin is all that matters to them.
Yeah. I guess changing his name might cloud his Muggle lineage, which would otherwise be quite apparent as he had the same name as his father. It's certainly ironic.

It just seems as though it oughtn't have been too hard for Voldemort's contemporaries to know that Tom M. Riddle=Lord Voldemort and know who his father was. I wasn't that clear on when, precisely he made the name change, but he went to Hogwarts as Tom Riddle and plenty of people ought to have known him from that. I rather pictured him prancing about making pompous proclaimations like, "That's Loooooord Voldemort to you," or, "You may now call me 'Lord Voldemort.'" [Something I can definitely picture Ralph Fiennes doing, btw.]

Seems the fact that he was horrifically powerful had more to do with his rise than the particulars of his breeding.

Christine N.
07-21-2005, 04:16 PM
His schoolmates did know him as Tom Riddle, but Tom Riddle was an orphan. Voldemort himself didn't know of his own parentage until after he left Hogwarts, so why would anyone else? He would definately have covered it up.

And for everyone else - V looks nothing like Tom did when at school, so who would make the connection?

DTNg
07-21-2005, 06:26 PM
Why oh why did I peek?

Christine N.
07-21-2005, 07:44 PM
Yeah, my current WIP has a basilisk in it, but that's because it fits with the book. <shrug> She's sort of used all the major mythological creatures in some fashion, which means the rest of us sort of have to scrounge around and find really obscure ones, or just take our "copycat" torments with a grain of salt.

Heck, at this point, don't worry about it - you know how many books there are about wizarding school now?? Most are real fantasy/SF - other worlds and all, but still...

I am proud to say my series has nothing to do with a young wizard and his trials at school. The only wizard in the whole thing has been dead quite a while, and the school is an average British public school for girls.

l.stormgaye
07-21-2005, 07:45 PM
I thought Harry Potter was an unshaven weedhead. What a let down.

mkcbunny
07-21-2005, 08:53 PM
His schoolmates did know him as Tom Riddle, but Tom Riddle was an orphan. Voldemort himself didn't know of his own parentage until after he left Hogwarts, so why would anyone else? He would definately have covered it up.
That's basically how Rowling plays it. I'm just saying that when a person uses his/her own name, it shouldn't be that hard to track down their parents. He was an orphan, but Tom Riddle was the right name to trace. It isn't as though he was renamed John Doe. Then again, his dad was a Muggle, so he wouldn't exactly be flying high on the wizarding radar.


And for everyone else - V looks nothing like Tom did when at school, so who would make the connection?
But if he changed his name before he disappeared and morphed into something unrecognizable.... It does seem like he just slipped into the night and only a few people knew his real identity. But for instance, when he showed up asking Dumbledore for a job at Hogwarts, we're asked to believe then that Dumbles didn't have a conversation with anyone about who he was and why he was there. It seems a bit of a stretch. All it would take is Dumbles saying to Minerva, "That was Lord Voldemort. He used to be a student here who went bby the name of Tom Riddle. He's a bit sketchy, that one." Minerva tells someone, they tell someone ...

I'm willing to make the leap, but the more detail we get about Voldemort, the more I find it hard to believe that no one knew his real identity or lineage, that's all. Those Dark wizards seem so obsessed with that very subject and love to gossip.

katiemac
07-21-2005, 10:16 PM
Nothing spoiler-ish, but I just wanted to share this plot-planning bit that a friend pointed out to me. This is partially why I love Rowling's style so much -- one sentence in book two suddenly becomes a large plot point of book six!

In Chamber, when Harry ends up at the Dark Arts shop accidentally, he hides in a large cabinet while watching Malfoy look at the opal necklace and the Hand of Glory. This encounter was brought up in HBP, but I'm not sure the cabinet itself was mentioned.

What wasn't brought up, however, was what happened when Harry was back at school. While in Filch's office, trying to avoid a detention, Nearly Headless Nick convinces Peeves to cause a distraction. Filch is delighted when Peeves drops a black and gold cabinet in front of his office door because he's sure it will get Peeves chucked out. According to him, "that vanishing cabinet was expensive."

Christine N.
07-21-2005, 10:18 PM
And the sad thing is, that any creatures, for example, that any other writer uses, the kids don't know the origins of it, and automatically think the author ripped of JKR. I was looking at the Amazon listing of Septimus Heap: Book One, and one of the people who reviewed it (whom it seemed like was a kid) said that because Angie Sage uses a boggart in the book that it was taking from HP.

That's the problem I see - kids think she made up those things. Absolutetly no offence to JKR, the way she weaves them into her story is brilliant, but it's a shame that the audience doesn't know the difference.

Honey Nut Loop
07-21-2005, 10:49 PM
Which brings me to a question I never understood. What makes you a half-blood? Because Harry has been referred to repeatedly as half-blood like Voldemort, but since both of his parents were wizards I figured he was pure. It was only his mother that was muggle-born. Or... is it just a term for anyone who's had any muggle-blood in them at all? Hermione, on the other hand, is referred to as a "Mudblood" for being muggle-born, but as far as I know the term doesn't attach to half-bloods.

JK has explained this. Harry is referred to as half-blood because his mother was Muggleborn. According to Voldemort and the Deatheaters muggleborns are as bad as ordinary muggles.

mkcbunny
07-21-2005, 11:37 PM
Just realized one thing. While I was looking into a chapter of Phoenix for what was said about Regulus Black, Harry happens to find something of interest in Grimmauld Place. I believe it's chapter 6, and this very interesting piece of information isn't even given a full sentence. Don't miss it. ;)
It is in chapter six. Should I say what page? :)

Lantern Jack
07-22-2005, 01:15 AM
You blew the ending with your ineptly-positioned SPOILER warning. Now, according to the inexorable laws of Harry Potter anti-spoilage jihad, I must destroy you ([as Bela Ligosi] Destroy! Destrooooyyy!!!) And, since you have tainted others with your spoilage frivolity, I must purge them, as well, for the sake of the wizarding community. You're worse than Professor Trelawney, with your diabolical forecasts. I hope you have, like, a googleplex horcruxes, because you're about to be Avada Kedavraed back to the stone age:box:

katiemac
07-22-2005, 01:42 AM
Oh Will... :D

You can be poetic and threatening at the same time!

Honey Nut Loop
07-22-2005, 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemac
Just realized one thing. While I was looking into a chapter of Phoenix for what was said about Regulus Black, Harry happens to find something of interest in Grimmauld Place. I believe it's chapter 6, and this very interesting piece of information isn't even given a full sentence. Don't miss it. ;)


It is in chapter six. Should I say what page? :)


I've found it. :D . Excellent sleuthing

loquax
07-22-2005, 02:46 AM
Maybe Dumbledore made a horcrux.

Edit: Whoooaooaoaoaoa I just read that bit in ootp. Good stuff. Wow.

mkcbunny
07-22-2005, 06:15 AM
I think I may need to start back at the beginning again ... :)

katiemac
07-22-2005, 07:19 AM
mkc, I know we talked about this a little... but starting at the beginning really is working my brain. I'd forgotten about a lot of things, like how James saved Snape's life... and then of course the bit my friend pointed out in Chamber about the vanishing cabinets.

By the way, since we were talking about Petunia earlier, I'm also convinced we won't have heard the last of her. I mean, we know Dumbledore was writing to her. She's definitely got some knowledge on her, and can fully appreciate the magnitude of Dumbledore's death. I can't wait to find out what happens at the Dursley home the very second Harry turns 17.

CCOhio
07-22-2005, 07:31 AM
Chapter 6 in book 5 mentions a heavy silver locket. On page 437 of the HBP, its a heavy gold locket...

katiemac
07-22-2005, 07:38 AM
What version are you reading, Ohio? I've got the American version and it doesn't describe the locket one way or another, just "a heavy locket no one could open."

Edited to add: this refers to the locket in Phoenix, not Half-Blood Prince.

mkcbunny
07-22-2005, 07:55 AM
mkc, I know we talked about this a little... but starting at the beginning really is working my brain. I'd forgotten about a lot of things, like how James saved Snape's life... and then of course the bit my friend pointed out in Chamber about the vanishing cabinets.

Yeah, every time someone mentions a detail I don't remember, I realize how long its beeen since I read the early books. Even though they seem fresh as stories from seeing the films, the movies don't have the same detail, of course. And I imagine there are all sorts of interesting things to be noticed once one has gotten through Book 6. Plus, those first three can be ready pretty quickly. :)


By the way, since we were talking about Petunia earlier, I'm also convinced we won't have heard the last of her. I mean, we know Dumbledore was writing to her. She's definitely got some knowledge on her, and can fully appreciate the magnitude of Dumbledore's death. I can't wait to find out what happens at the Dursley home the very second Harry turns 17.
I tell you, she is gonna BLOW at Vernon. He'll make some comment about her sister, and she'll lose it, and then the house will explode or something and we'll know she has witchy powers.

Lantern Jack
07-22-2005, 01:06 PM
Okay, I've never quite savvied the purposes of these pictures, particularly the ones in the Headmaster's office. If Dumbledore's been made into a picture, part of his soul translated into living canvas, doesn't that A) Make the picture a horcrux, and B) Greatly soften the tragedy of his death. If a picture is merely a shadow of the terrestrial self, and Dumbledore is a real savant, doesn't that mean, even as a glimmer of his former genius, his portrait would still possess a radiant genius and be a comfort to all. And, if the portraits of former Headmasters are supposed to exist to provide advice in troubled times, why didn't McGonagall ask the picture Dumbledore what should be done? And, if one picture is a horcrux, doesn't that make every picture at Hogwarts, in the wizarding world in general, a horcrux?

loquax
07-22-2005, 01:45 PM
^^^^ Rowling was asked that question a while ago (can Sirius come back if there was a portrait of him etc.), and IIRC she said that portraits are nothing but memories of that person. They can't think up new ideas or have revelations - only old ones. And even though Riddle's diary was the 'memory' of his older self, it could still think for itself; still plot and hold proper conversations.

The thing that always interested me was how the diary Riddle knew about Harry in the first place. And couldn't Voldemort have just used a death eater sacrifice instead of Ginny? And what would happen then..... two Voldemorts?

tjwriter
07-22-2005, 01:53 PM
I would assume for all intents and purposes that it being so soon after Dumbledore's death when Harry and the Heads arrive there that his "imprint" (for lack of a better term) is still recovering.

I was crushed when Dumbledore died, but alas I figured it out at the table of contents based on the last two chapter titles.

I am still on the fence about Snape. There are some good theories here, but I could almost see J.K. using a fatal error to off Dumbledore. At any rate we will see and I try not to speculate too much. It just hurts my head after awhile.

Finally, I expect Ron and Hermione to be a full-fledged couple by the beginning of book 7. I also believe that in addition to them following Harry, Ginny will do whatever she can to go, and he will probably have a few other followers as well. Dumbledore was right about the Horcruxes though. With all the research alluded to in the book, I bet my left sock those are the ones.

I read the book twice in the first 72hrs I had it, and I fully intend to reread the entire series once my mom gives me my book back.

Plenty of good ideas and theories here though.

stranger
07-22-2005, 02:04 PM
Reading this thread is the first time I've thought about Harry/Harry's scar being a Horcrux. I like it. And from that this theory sprung to mind.

Regulus Black (or whoever) gave Harry's mother the Horcrux locket. She put this in Harry's cradle to protect him. Now when Volde tries to Avada Kedavra, he's doing it to his own Horcrux, effectively to his own soul. Needlessly to say, this backfires, killing him (but he doesn't die due to the Horcruxes) and attaching the locket Horcrux to
Harry. This would explain the reason why for the first time the Avada spell doesn't work much better than the mother's love theory. (Though the mother's love theory is explained by Lily giving the Horcrux to Harry rather than trying to use it to save herself. Now all we need is for Snape to have given the locket to Lily.)

CCOhio
07-22-2005, 04:47 PM
Yeah. You're right...a heavy locket no one could open. I don't know where I thought I saw silver...

Honey Nut Loop
07-22-2005, 05:40 PM
Finally, I expect Ron and Hermione to be a full-fledged couple by the beginning of book 7. I also believe that in addition to them following Harry

Wouldn't it be corny if Hermione caught the bouquet at Bill and Fleur's wedding. Then again who knows what they do at wizarding weddings.

PattiTheWicked
07-22-2005, 07:00 PM
What version are you reading, Ohio? I've got the American version and it doesn't describe the locket one way or another, just "a heavy locket no one could open."

Edited to add: this refers to the locket in Phoenix, not Half-Blood Prince.

The same chapter also includes a reference to a stoppered vial with a reddish, blood-like fluid in it. I wonder if this could be a Horcrux as well, in addition to the locket?

mkcbunny
07-22-2005, 07:31 PM
Reading this thread is the first time I've thought about Harry/Harry's scar being a Horcrux. I like it. And from that this theory sprung to mind.

Regulus Black (or whoever) gave Harry's mother the Horcrux locket. She put this in Harry's cradle to protect him. Now when Volde tries to Avada Kedavra, he's doing it to his own Horcrux, effectively to his own soul. Needlessly to say, this backfires, killing him (but he doesn't die due to the Horcruxes) and attaching the locket Horcrux to
Harry. This would explain the reason why for the first time the Avada spell doesn't work much better than the mother's love theory. (Though the mother's love theory is explained by Lily giving the Horcrux to Harry rather than trying to use it to save herself. Now all we need is for Snape to have given the locket to Lily.)
I rather like this theory as an explanation for Harry's survival, but I can't see Lily allowing anything remotely related to Voldemort near her child.

mkcbunny
07-22-2005, 07:33 PM
Reading this thread is the first time I've thought about Harry/Harry's scar being a Horcrux. I like it. And from that this theory sprung to mind.

Regulus Black (or whoever) gave Harry's mother the Horcrux locket. She put this in Harry's cradle to protect him. Now when Volde tries to Avada Kedavra, he's doing it to his own Horcrux, effectively to his own soul. Needlessly to say, this backfires, killing him (but he doesn't die due to the Horcruxes) and attaching the locket Horcrux to
Harry. This would explain the reason why for the first time the Avada spell doesn't work much better than the mother's love theory. (Though the mother's love theory is explained by Lily giving the Horcrux to Harry rather than trying to use it to save herself. Now all we need is for Snape to have given the locket to Lily.)
I rather like this theory as an explanation for Harry's survival, but I can't see Lily allowing anything remotely related to Voldemort near her child. Unless she had one of the other Horcruxes, perhaps one from Griffindor, that no one knew was a Horcrux. Maybe Harry had a griffindor locket around his neck. Not sure how to make it work, but it's an interesting idea.

stranger
07-22-2005, 07:50 PM
I rather like this theory as an explanation for Harry's survival, but I can't see Lily allowing anything remotely related to Voldemort near her child. Unless she had one of the other Horcruxes, perhaps one from Griffindor, that no one knew was a Horcrux. Maybe Harry had a griffindor locket around his neck. Not sure how to make it work, but it's an interesting idea.

Let me see, how about this. Snape is in love with Lily and has posession of a Horcrux (perhaps the locket). Snape finds out that Volde is going to kill her and gives her the Horcrux and tells her it will protect her from Volde (doesn't tell her anything about the Horcrux). She gives it to Harry instead of using it for herself. Then the whole backfiring due to attacking his own soul occurs. Theory still has a few holes in it.

If Harry is a Horcrux, will he have to die for Volde to die? (Destroy all Horcruxes, then kill Volde) I can imagine Harry would allow himself to die if it meant the end of Volde. Could they have Volde captured but one of his friends would have to kill Harry and then kill Volde. Would probably be too dark of an ending.

Based on the end of the 6th book, seems Harry will (try to) push Ginny away as he thinks he'll put her at risk. Will he also push Hermione and Ron away? He probably blames himself for Sirius and Dumbledores death and won't want any one else close to him to die on his account. But of course he won't be able to succeed on his own. Dumbledore kept telling him this in the last book. So he'll have to be convinced to accept his friends help. Perhaps.

mkcbunny
07-22-2005, 07:57 PM
Let me see, how about this. Snape is in love with Lily and has posession of a Horcrux (perhaps the locket). Snape finds out that Volde is going to kill her and gives her the Horcrux and tells her it will protect her from Volde (doesn't tell her anything about the Horcrux). She gives it to Harry instead of using it for herself. Then the whole backfiring due to attacking his own soul occurs. Theory still has a few holes in it.
I could buy this. It would have to be a locket [or whatever] that was not related to Slytherin, I would think.


If Harry is a Horcrux, will he have to die for Volde to die? (Destroy all Horcruxes, then kill Volde) I can imagine Harry would allow himself to die if it meant the end of Volde. Could they have Volde captured but one of his friends would have to kill Harry and then kill Volde. Would probably be too dark of an ending.
This conundrum was batted around a bit on earlier pages of this thread. Check out the permutations.


Based on the end of the 6th book, seems Harry will (try to) push Ginny away as he thinks he'll put her at risk. Will he also push Hermione and Ron away? He probably blames himself for Sirius and Dumbledores death and won't want any one else close to him to die on his account. But of course he won't be able to succeed on his own. Dumbledore kept telling him this in the last book. So he'll have to be convinced to accept his friends help. Perhaps.
He does seem to follow that same pattern repeatedly: blaming himself, trying to protect those he loves, and, particularly, not telling adults what he knows. But he always looks to Ron and Hermione in the end, and they already know what's going on anyway. What I am curious to see is where he will get his historical clues from, now that Dumbles is dead.

aadams73
07-22-2005, 08:23 PM
Just realized one thing. While I was looking into a chapter of Phoenix for what was said about Regulus Black, Harry happens to find something of interest in Grimmauld Place. I believe it's chapter 6, and this very interesting piece of information isn't even given a full sentence. Don't miss it. ;)

Thanks Katie, you're brilliant!

loquax
07-22-2005, 10:54 PM
In HBP, Mundungus stole a load of things from Sirius. Why? It was a strangely unnecessary part of the book. Until you read that bit in OOTP. I think Mundungus is a bit evil, and that he has the locket now.

Oooooooooh theories.

Christine N.
07-22-2005, 10:59 PM
But Mundungus is in Azkaban, so if he did steal it, who did he sell it to? Back to Borgin and Burges? They would certainly recognize it, and of course not pay Mundungus what it was worth.

Or did he sell it at all? Maybe he never found it... Ooo.. Kreacher liked to horde the old Black family paraphenalia. What if HE had it and gave it to... Bellatrix?

katiemac
07-23-2005, 12:44 AM
Thanks Katie, you're brilliant!

Don't mention it, Adam! I'm sure you would have come across it eventually. I just got my Entertainment Weekly in the mail and it's Harry Potter all over the place. There's two pages devoted to HBP, where they've brought up the locket, Regulus Black, and Aberforth Dumbledore. People are catching onto stuff left and right.


In HBP, Mundungus stole a load of things from Sirius. Why? It was a strangely unnecessary part of the book. Until you read that bit in OOTP. I think Mundungus is a bit evil, and that he has the locket now.

Yes, I thought about that, too. Like you said, why show the objects being stolen otherwise? And is he in Azkaban? I must have missed/forgotten that part. I thought he got away with the stolen goods.


I could buy this. It would have to be a locket [or whatever] that was not related to Slytherin, I would think.

If Dumbledore was right, I think all of the Horcruxes are accounted for except one. A lot of people are beginning to think that final Horcrux is a person, like Harry, because of that major foreshadowing Dumbledore hinted at -- "having free will." This "free will" bit got me thinking, though -- what are the odds this free will bit relates not to a person, but to the snake? We all know Harry can talk to snakes, and it makes me wonder if it's leading up to something more drastic than setting a snake loose on his cousin. (Ok, ok, it was helpful in Chamber, too, but...)

As for Petunia, I'm really starting to think she is a witch. Or has some abilities. At first I just thought she really opposed wizardry and/or was jealous, because of the little rant she made about Lily coming home and doing magic in the house. We don't know anything about her parentage -- what if she really wasn't Muggle-born? -- and they could have been wizards too. After all, they were "really pleased to have a witch in the family." I wonder if Petunia is a Squib.

As for Dumbledore's portrait, I'm sure that will make another appearance. I don't think McGonagall or anyone really thought about talking to the portrait -- she was quite shocked when she first saw it -- and the portrait was sleeping. Obviously, had it been awake, there would be a lot of questions answered too soon.

And, as a bit of a funny afterthought... I saw on ABC the other evening during the news one of their morning shows will be covering (or perhaps did this morning) a special on how to console your child after reading this book.

l.stormgaye
07-23-2005, 12:48 AM
Harry Potter was just beheaded by Paris Hilton. Her mom filed an injunction to prevent the video from being aired on the internet.

Stay tuned as this story develops.

loquax
07-23-2005, 01:11 AM
This may be nit picking - it might not be - but how did Regulus get the locket? Did he drink the potion himself? How did he replace the potion once he had taken the locket? Lots of questions......

Christine N.
07-23-2005, 01:36 AM
I've thought about that - and it obviously takes two people to retrieve the locket. So the question then becomes...


Who helped Regulus?

Thoughts? Sirius - maybe, has possibilities. Not DD, then he wouldn't have gone after it.
Snape?

I'm pretty sure Mundungus is in Azkaban. I don't have the book at hand, but I remember Hermione reading the Prophet and it had something about him in there, I think it was b/c he had been arrested.

katiemac
07-23-2005, 01:36 AM
This may be nit picking - it might not be - but how did Regulus get the locket? Did he drink the potion himself? How did he replace the potion once he had taken the locket? Lots of questions......

Not nit-picking, I've had the same question. Dumbledore said it was a "two man job," though (or something like that), which makes me wonder if he had a partner. As for the potion, maybe it magically refills itself?

loquax
07-23-2005, 01:44 AM
Something that I don't think was ever explained in the book - what do horcruxes actually do? Let's say Voldy died. Would the locket all of a sudden spring to life and start killing people? Obviously, the diary could assume a persona... but how would a goblet do the same thing?

And why did the diary want to come back to life in the first place? Let's say 16 yr old Tom Riddle actually came back to life. Then what?

katiemac
07-23-2005, 01:51 AM
Something that I don't think was ever explained in the book - what do horcruxes actually do? Let's say Voldy died. Would the locket all of a sudden spring to life and start killing people? Obviously, the diary could assume a persona... but how would a goblet do the same thing?

And why did the diary want to come back to life in the first place? Let's say 16 yr old Tom Riddle actually came back to life. Then what?

That's the thing. They're so you can't die. That's why Voldemort wasn't killed when his curse backfired on Harry. He was sort of wasting away without a body, but the Horcruxes gave him the ability to remain alive, however desolate, until he could regain power. Basically, they ensure you immortality. Let's say Harry uses the killing curse on Voldemort without destroying all the Horcruxes first. It just starts all over again, how Voldemort was before he got his body back in Goblet.

The diary, I believe, was a special case. Not only was a piece of his soul contained within the diary, so was his memory. It was the memory that re-activated, not the soul, attacking people and growing strength. Had he become corporeal form again, the wizarding world would have been in a hell of a lot of trouble. I'm sure 16 year old Riddle would have helped his other self back to power... but thank goodness we didn't have to deal with that! I believe someone also mentioned previously how diary Riddle even knew about Harry -- that's because Ginny was writing in the diary, and told Tom the entire story. So he became interested. I'm not sure when Riddle made the Horcruxes, so if his 16-year-old memory hadn't done so yet, the memory Riddle might not even known his future self had the ability to come back.

loquax
07-23-2005, 02:26 AM
Are you saying that the little bit of soul he has inside him is invincible until the others are destroyed? Hmmnnnn...... that's a bit too... I don't know. I don't like it.

mkcbunny
07-23-2005, 02:36 AM
Not nit-picking, I've had the same question. Dumbledore said it was a "two man job," though (or something like that), which makes me wonder if he had a partner. As for the potion, maybe it magically refills itself?
I got stuck on the particulars of the green liquid and the trap when we first started talking lockets. I wondered how someone could get the fake back in there and reconstruct the trap. And it's clearly a nearly fatal prepostion for one of the two people involved. So, it seems to me that in order to reconstruct the potion and cure the potion-related ills, Regulus would need someone with him who was an expert at .... potions. :) Snape's the obvious candidate. It can't be Sirius, because he probably would have recognized the locket when the kids were sifting through the junk; plus he'd been hanging around that house and would have undoubtedly seen it and snatched it up. I would have a hard time believing it was him and he just happened NOT to see it.

I still have many questions related to how Regulus died and, given the options, how the locket wound up unidentified in a pile of knickknacks. All of the possibilities I come up with are problematic.

mkcbunny
07-23-2005, 02:47 AM
Are you saying that the little bit of soul he has inside him is invincible until the others are destroyed? Hmmnnnn...... that's a bit too... I don't know. I don't like it.
In order for the spirit of Voldemort to be completely destroyed, all seven parts of his soul must be destroyed. If you just kill Voldemort's body, he can eventually reconstruct his physical being, as long as there's at least one Horcrux somewhere with a saved bit of soul.

However, if you destroy any existing Horcruxes first, then when you destroy the body the bit of soul therein is the last one -- and he's gone for good. You can't really keep him down unless all his "backup copies" are gone.

Imagine you have six CDs with your computer backed up on them. Your computer can die, and you can reconstruct it from the backup again and again. You could even make more backup CDs. But if you break the CDs and then destroy the computer, you've lost your hard drive contents forever.

mkcbunny
07-23-2005, 03:21 AM
Thanks Katie, you're brilliant!
You sound just like Ron. LOL.

aadams73
07-23-2005, 03:33 AM
You sound just like Ron. LOL.

LOL! That's "won-won" thankyerverymuch.

alanna
07-23-2005, 03:49 AM
I got stuck on the particulars of the green liquid and the trap when we first started talking lockets. I wondered how someone could get the fake back in there and reconstruct the trap. And it's clearly a nearly fatal prepostion for one of the two people involved. So, it seems to me that in order to reconstruct the potion and cure the potion-related ills, Regulus would need someone with him who was an expert at .... potions. :) Snape's the obvious candidate.

Or Lily.

katiemac
07-23-2005, 07:03 AM
It can't be Sirius, because he probably would have recognized the locket when the kids were sifting through the junk; plus he'd been hanging around that house and would have undoubtedly seen it and snatched it up. I would have a hard time believing it was him and he just happened NOT to see it.

Right. There's no way it's Sirius. On the one hand, he would have known his brother wasn't all dark and evil-like, and secondly, being a member of the Order, I'm thinking he would have clued other people about the existence of Horcruxes, or the locket in the least, if he didn't know what they were.

Or, maybe Regulus didn't have an accomplice. His cause of death could have been the potion. It's not like Dumbledore died immediately, so it could have given him time to stash it somewhere. The story about him backing out of the Death Eaters and getting murdered could just have been a story. It was "the best I could tell," according to Sirius, and Voldemort wouldn't want people knowing about the Horcruxes, now would he?

I've also decided the reason Snape never got to teach DADA until this book was because, Dumbledore being aware of the curse on the job, he didn't want to risk Snape's safety. It wasn't until they really need Slughorn on hand to retrieve that memory that Dumbledore took the risk. Sigh.

mkcbunny
07-23-2005, 08:09 AM
Or, maybe Regulus didn't have an accomplice. His cause of death could have been the potion. It's not like Dumbledore died immediately, so it could have given him time to stash it somewhere.
Agreed. But the reminders about the "two-person job" make a Snape theory interesting. However, Dumbly might have been saying that because he didn't really know what to expect and wanted backup; it's not like he knew exactly what challenge they would face. And he couldn't have know that it killed Regulus [if it did] or he wouldn't have gone looking there.


I've also decided the reason Snape never got to teach DADA until this book was because, Dumbledore being aware of the curse on the job, he didn't want to risk Snape's safety.
Agreed, as well. When Dumbles said the job was cursed, I figured Snape was going to be gone from Hogwarts one way or another at the end of the book.

mkcbunny
07-23-2005, 08:45 AM
Or Lily.
I thought about that. Assuming the event in question happened when she was alive; I'm not sure off the top of my head how the Potter deaths match up to the Regulus one in the HP timeline. Anyone know?

mkcbunny
07-23-2005, 09:05 AM
[Blah, Blah, Blah. ....] Snape [... blah, blah, blah ...] Snape [... blah, blah, blah] Snape ... Sigh.

LOL. Would it be horrific to observe that some of us [ahem, she says, scurrying behind a large piece of furniture] might have ... gasp a little crush? Eee gads!!

I mean, first we say, we believe in Snape. Then we say he's helped all along. Then we feel bad for him. ... Then we start letting out little sighs. Seems very girly to me.

loquax
07-23-2005, 11:52 AM
Imagine you have six CDs with your computer backed up on them. Your computer can die, and you can reconstruct it from the backup again and again. You could even make more backup CDs. But if you break the CDs and then destroy the computer, you've lost your hard drive contents forever.

But Voldemort still has a piece of soul inside him that hasn't been 'backed up'. Why wasn't it destroyed when the Avada Kedavra backfired?

mkcbunny
07-23-2005, 07:56 PM
But Voldemort still has a piece of soul inside him that hasn't been 'backed up'. Why wasn't it destroyed when the Avada Kedavra backfired?
Well, we don't really know what went wrong when he tried to kill Harry. But let's say it was a "normal" killing. My understanding was that when he died then, he had no body and all he was was the essence of Voldemort, lurking in the shadows waiting to come back to strength. This is possible because of the Horcruxes; they allow his soul to continue on without his corporeal form. If he had had none at the time, he would have died for good.

Maybe the computer example wasn't the best one. It seemed similar at the time.

loquax
07-23-2005, 10:16 PM
Well, we don't really know what went wrong when he tried to kill Harry. But let's say it was a "normal" killing. My understanding was that when he died then, he had no body and all he was was the essence of Voldemort, lurking in the shadows waiting to come back to strength. This is possible because of the Horcruxes; they allow his soul to continue on without his corporeal form. If he had had none at the time, he would have died for good.
That's the bit I don't like about it. If there is something else at play, then fine. Cool. But otherwise, it's all a bit "This happens because I say so".

mkcbunny
07-23-2005, 10:40 PM
That's the bit I don't like about it. If there is something else at play, then fine. Cool. But otherwise, it's all a bit "This happens because I say so".
It's rather like Sauron and the ring in Lord of the Rings. Sauron was stricken down and the ring lost, but so much of his power was in the ring that his essence continued on. After time and the support of his followers, the essense gained strength. If the ring is destroyed, he's down for good. But as long as the ring exists in the world, he can come back from physical death.

The Horcrux notion does raise lots of questions. But it makes more sense to me than Voldemort being able to survive death without a specific explanation. I had wondered how his essence was lingering around at all; the fact of his being super-powerful didn't quite explain that. Without the Horcrux idea, the only justification for his survival is that the Potter attack went awry.

Kida Adelyne
07-23-2005, 11:07 PM
When I read Dumbledore was dead, I was all ready to fly off to england and bash her head in (though now that I look back, it was rather inevitable) then I read the bit with Tonks and Lupin and I was very happy. I love tonks, and I love lupin ^.^ I think this is the second best one, next to #3. I totally did not guess that Snape was the half blood prince. I've already reread most of it too.


Just a few thought... there are six horcruxes, plus voldermort right? Voldermort was killed wasn't he? Not killed but, the bit of soul in his body would have been destroyed when he was defeated facing harry. That would mean that he had to find a horcrux or somthing to regenerate, didn't it? So he put in: bit of his fathers bone, wormtails hand, harry's blood. So, could he have retrieved his soul from harry at that point? Nagini was also milked to nurse voldermort back to health in the begining of the fourth one. Just random thoughts.

loquax
07-23-2005, 11:29 PM
Just a few thought... there are six horcruxes, plus voldermort right? Voldermort was killed wasn't he? Not killed but, the bit of soul in his body would have been destroyed when he was defeated facing harry.
That's what I'm on about. It would make a LOT more sense if Voldemort actually died when the avada kedavra backfired, and one of the death eaters resurrected him using a horcrux. But noooooooooo.

katiemac
07-24-2005, 12:36 AM
LOL. Would it be horrific to observe that some of us [ahem, she says, scurrying behind a large piece of furniture] might have ... gasp a little crush? Eee gads!!
Haha! Crush? No, unfortunately. But I do love his character. He's always been one of my favorites from the point until he was cleared in Stone, and I always want to sort of mentally kick Harry whenever he suspects him. I mean, really, what a life! So misunderstood.


Not killed but, the bit of soul in his body would have been destroyed when he was defeated facing harry. That would mean that he had to find a horcrux or somthing to regenerate, didn't it?
We know what Horcruxes are for, but we don't really know what they do. It was never said what it takes to regenerate. I really don't think they do much themselves, really. They just hold the soul. As long as a piece of yourself is somewhere -- not necessarily in your body or close to you -- you can survive. I do wonder, however, what happened to the soul when he lost his body. I was sort of under the impression that the curse destroyed his body, and his soul was the part that hung on, but only because there was at least one other part in existence. Seems to me like the part of his soul that was in his body was on backup. Because there were backups, the original held on. But once those backups are gone, too, then the original can't resurrect.

But I have no idea.

loquax
07-24-2005, 12:40 AM
I was sort of under the impression that the curse destroyed his body, and his soul was the part that hung on, but only because there was at least one other part in existence. Can't be sure though. In that case the destruction of a horcrux wouldn't destroy the part of the soul it holds either.

katiemac
07-24-2005, 12:42 AM
In that case the destruction of a horcrux wouldn't destroy the part of the soul it holds either.

Right. You caught me before I edited. Still, what's posted now still could fall under this idea, too. Hard to say.

mkcbunny
07-24-2005, 01:15 AM
Haha! Crush? No, unfortunately. But I do love his character. He's always been one of my favorites from the point until he was cleared in Stone, and I always want to sort of mentally kick Harry whenever he suspects him. I mean, really, what a life! So misunderstood.
LOL. I couldn't help saying it, though. Let's call it an enthusiastic fan club, then.

katiemac
07-24-2005, 01:56 AM
I'm not sure off the top of my head how the Potter deaths match up to the Regulus one in the HP timeline. Anyone know?

As of Phoenix, Regulus died "some fifteen years previously." Harry was fifteen. He was one years old when his parents died, making the Potters alive and well at the point of Regulus's death. Harry may or may not have been born yet, depending. Still, that doesn't mean much other than the fact that was the timeframe when Voldemort's power was reigning.


Let's call it an enthusiastic fan club, then.

I'll definitely take that. I've always wondered about his family. I mean -- Harry's was all alone, Sirius was all alone... and Snape, too. Not saying they're family by any means, but you'd think they'd appreciate that fact about each other. I was pleased to find out about his mother, even if she did happen to attend school the same time as Voldemort. I read the interview by JKR that was posted here, and there's a question along the lines of, "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" JKR, she's a tricky one, but I was pleased nonetheless by the answer. I can't believe seven is still two years away!

aadams73
07-25-2005, 03:52 AM
http://www.tessgerritsen.com/story.cfm?CID=30

Courtesy of Tess Gerritsen's website, a little about Bezoars. I was just reading her blog and clicking around and found that little tidbit that might interest Potter fans.

PattiTheWicked
07-25-2005, 05:48 AM
For more Harry Potter fun: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/spells.html

mkcbunny
07-25-2005, 09:15 AM
http://www.tessgerritsen.com/story.cfm?CID=30

Courtesy of Tess Gerritsen's website, a little about Bezoars. I was just reading her blog and clicking around and found that little tidbit that might interest Potter fans.
Hmmmm. I wonder what type of bezoars Harry employed, exactly? Here's Webster's definition. (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=bezoar&x=0&y=0) Whether hair or something else [gall stones, for example], they sound supremely unappetizing. I guess J.K. might have called her first book "Harry Potter and the Bezoar Stone." Aren't we all lucky?

I knew someone who suffered from trichotilomania [sp?] which is the compulsive hairpulling referenced in the trichobezoar tale posted by aadams73 [thanks!]. But she didn't progress to the eating-and-bezoar stage. I think she'd find this pretty interesting. She had quite a sense of humor about it all.

Jens22
07-25-2005, 11:10 PM
I get the feeling Snape and Dumbledore discussed the possibility that attempts would be made on Dumbledore's life, and that Snape should do the deed if necessary. Maybe when Dumbledore was lying there going, "Snape . . . please . . . " he wasn't begging for his life but encouraging Snape to do this difficult thing in order to maintain his cover as a Death Eater. A noble sacrifice for the cause, if you will. I think that's also why Snape flipped out when Harry called him a coward--it was probably the bravest, most difficult thing Snape had ever done in his life.

Has anyone noticed parallels in the book to current terrorism issues? A few I picked up on:

--use of 16-year-old Malfoy to do Voldemort's killing (not unlike teenage suicide bombers)

--locking up of innocent people at Azkaban to create an illusion of security and control

--people freaking out and feeling terrorized every time someone at Hogwarts is cursed, pulling their kids out of school, etc.

--increased security at Hogwarts proves futile--Death Eaters find a way around it

Not sure what to make of the new Minister of Magic, Scrimgeour the vampire . . . Tony Blair? Bush? Cheney? Hmm . . . :)

mkcbunny
07-26-2005, 12:38 AM
I get the feeling Snape and Dumbledore discussed the possibility that attempts would be made on Dumbledore's life, and that Snape should do the deed if necessary. Maybe when Dumbledore was lying there going, "Snape . . . please . . . " he wasn't begging for his life but encouraging Snape to do this difficult thing in order to maintain his cover as a Death Eater. A noble sacrifice for the cause, if you will. I think that's also why Snape flipped out when Harry called him a coward--it was probably the bravest, most difficult thing Snape had ever done in his life.


Exactly. Poor Snape.


Has anyone noticed parallels in the book to current terrorism issues?
Yeah, it was hard not to make the connection.

Christine N.
07-26-2005, 01:14 AM
And, I think I said before, the odds are pretty good we'll see this whole conversation at some point. I really believe that DD pulled the memory of it out of his head and left it for Harry to see in the Pensieve.

I can totally see that happening.

mkcbunny
07-26-2005, 03:35 AM
And, I think I said before, the odds are pretty good we'll see this whole conversation at some point. I really believe that DD pulled the memory of it out of his head and left it for Harry to see in the Pensieve.

I can totally see that happening.
I will be pretty disappointed if we don't.

And you know how fond J.K. is of showing us a scene we've already seen from a different angle. So we should at least get an up-close view of the arguement Snape and Dumbles had in Book 6, plus hopefully some early memories.

Sarita
07-26-2005, 03:59 AM
And, I think I said before, the odds are pretty good we'll see this whole conversation at some point. I really believe that DD pulled the memory of it out of his head and left it for Harry to see in the Pensieve. Excellent theory, Christine! I love it. This is totally Dumbledore.

katiemac
07-26-2005, 07:49 AM
I think that's also why Snape flipped out when Harry called him a coward--it was probably the bravest, most difficult thing Snape had ever done in his life.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this, as everyone probably knows by now how I feel about Snape's innocence. However, I sort of thought he reacted so violently to Harry calling him a coward because, well, he believes it. Snape probably thinks he should have sacrificed his own life in place of Dumbledore's, something I think he was preparing to do ever since he gave the oath.

And yes, I do think we'll witness the exchange between Snape and Dumbledore. I have to wonder, though, through who's head we'll see it. Remember when Snape was teaching Harry, and Harry happened to access some of Snape's memories? But, like it's already been said, it would be very like Dumbledore to keep a "record." My biggest fear of the moment: Harry kills Snape (or other) before fully realizing the circumstances, then must cope with taking an innocent life.

I was having a discussion with a friend a while back, and we both agree Harry is fully capable of killing. I don't think it's light of Harry's behavior that he's already attempted an unforgivable curse on two people now. Giving his previously reckless behavior, I can see him making such a critical mistake and learning to live with it afterward.

I see it now -- Harry defeats the Dark Lord, and spends the rest of his life locked up in Azkaban! Heh. What a twist.

mkcbunny
07-26-2005, 08:11 AM
I was having a discussion with a friend a while back, and we both agree Harry is fully capable of killing. I don't think it's light of Harry's behavior that he's already attempted an unforgivable curse on two people now. Giving his previously reckless behavior, I can see him making such a critical mistake and learning to live with it afterward.

I see it now -- Harry defeats the Dark Lord, and spends the rest of his life locked up in Azkaban! Heh. What a twist.
Yeah, what he did to Draco was pretty ghastly. Not that Draco wasn't pulling out his own evil curse, but Harry's was grisly. And he employed it without even knowing what it was. Imagine if he'd done that to someone for amusement, "just to see," which he seemed likely to do at one point.

I wouldn't be upset if someone gave Harry a backhander upside the head, as we used to say in New England. I know, "Boy Who Lived," parents killed, tragic life, suffers so much, unjustly punished, blah, blah, blah. But sometimes I just want to give him a time out.

loquax
07-26-2005, 02:22 PM
The whole importance of the 'unbreakable vow' in this book never actually came about - it was really prominent in the beginning, but then fizzled out towards the end - as if she forgot about it.

But I think the unbreakable vow is the most important part about the above theory - the fact that Snape had to protect Draco. I'm pretty sure we'll find out that murdering someone gives you some kind of curse (like seeing someone die), and that this was what Snape was protecting him for. If he broke this, he would die, because the vow is unbreakable. So he killed Dumbledore instead; to protect Draco.

But then there's the big question - why was Snape so interested in protecting Draco?

Jens22
07-26-2005, 08:53 PM
But then there's the big question - why was Snape so interested in protecting Draco?

He did hesitate a sec before taking the vow. If he'd refused, it probably would have blown his cover.

ChunkyC
07-26-2005, 09:36 PM
Finished the book last night.

Uh - mah - GAWD!

I still have to read this thread through so I don't reiterate what others have said, but let me just say that I am ready to pre-order book 7 RIGHT NOW!

loquax
07-26-2005, 09:56 PM
The biggest question buzzing round my head right now is why did the death eaters want to get into hogwarts? I mean, 1) It was dangerous to the point of stupidity, 2) Draco was meant to kill Dumbledore anyway, and 3) If Draco didn't do it, Snape would have done. If you look at it from far away, the death eaters got into the castle through the wardrobe, had a little bit of a fight, then ran away.

There must have been an alterior motive.

mkcbunny
07-27-2005, 01:23 AM
The biggest question buzzing round my head right now is why did the death eaters want to get into hogwarts? I mean, 1) It was dangerous to the point of stupidity, 2) Draco was meant to kill Dumbledore anyway, and 3) If Draco didn't do it, Snape would have done. If you look at it from far away, the death eaters got into the castle through the wardrobe, had a little bit of a fight, then ran away.

There must have been an alterior motive.
Draco arranged it. He had the idea that Snape wanted to kill Dumbledore and take that glory, and he didn't want Snape to steal his thunder. His plan was to go after Dumbles himself, without Snape, and I presume he arranged for the Death Eaters to get into Hogwarts via the Room of Requirement to serve as backup - to fight off anyone else who might get in his way [like Harry, Ron, Hermione, other teachers, etc.]. Snape didn't know it was happening until someone came and got him. If Draco had had his way, Snape wouldn't even have been there.

katiemac
07-27-2005, 01:25 AM
But then there's the big question - why was Snape so interested in protecting Draco?

Because Dumbledore wanted him to.

We all know Dumbledore sees the best in people. He knew Draco wouldn't complete the task. Not capable of murder, not thoroughly pleased with the idea or the task. Do you really think Dumbledore would have let a poor sixteen year old boy die if he could otherwise help it? The first agreements of the vow had to do with protecting and helping Draco -- doesn't specify how he has to help him. Both Snape and Dumbledore were doing that, anyway. Dumbledore offered to put Draco and his entire family under protection from Voldemort. It wasn't until the last bit of the vow -- kill Dumbledore for Draco -- where things got sticky. I doubt Snape ever dreamed Narcissa would ask him to such a thing, and hence the hesitation while he thought about it. I believe he finally agreed, thinking he would be the one to die before the year's end by breaking the last part of the agreement, rather than kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore, on the other hand, seemed to have his own agenda.

mkcbunny
07-27-2005, 01:27 AM
Well put, katiemac!

loquax
07-27-2005, 02:00 AM
I'm pretty surprised at the certainty you all have. Are you all Ms Rowling in disguise or something?

katiemac
07-27-2005, 03:33 AM
I'm pretty surprised at the certainty you all have. Are you all Ms Rowling in disguise or something?

Nah. I just have this terrible affliction to see all the good in people, too. Gets me in a heck of a lot of trouble.

Jens22
07-27-2005, 09:38 PM
You know, ever since Hagrid had to send away wee Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback in Book 1, I've been eagerly awaiting his reappearance as a full-grown dragon. Think it'll ever happen?

mkcbunny
07-27-2005, 10:56 PM
You know, ever since Hagrid had to send away wee Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback in Book 1, I've been eagerly awaiting his reappearance as a full-grown dragon. Think it'll ever happen?
Well, Buckbeak came back, so who knows.

Writer2011
07-27-2005, 11:43 PM
I figured it would be Dumbledore....You know something like this was coming....I wonder who will be next???

mdin
07-28-2005, 09:26 AM
Wanna see something evil?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8321856722&category=377&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

:ROFL:

katiemac
07-29-2005, 12:37 AM
Nav, I can't believe anyone would do that! That's terrible. Thank goodness half the world's already finished it....

Sarita
07-29-2005, 01:07 AM
My sister basically did the same thing to all her friends... The day it was released (and she finished reading it) she changed her quote line to say something like "I want Dumbledore baaaaaack!" Kind of ruined it... oops.

What's this about?

Special Attributes: 1st Edition, Signed

PattiTheWicked
07-29-2005, 01:33 AM
My sister basically did the same thing to all her friends... The day it was released (and she finished reading it) she changed her quote line to say something like "I want Dumbledore baaaaaack!" Kind of ruined it... oops.



When OOP came out, some wanker on the AOL message boards had a sig line that basically said, "We miss you, Sirius, please don't be dead" or some crap. I was really pissed, because I didn't get to read it right away. I knew someone important died, but I didn't know who.

So then I spent the whole book waiting for Sirius to get killed. It sucked.

katiemac
07-29-2005, 01:44 AM
Special Attributes: 1st Edition, Signed

Well, they've only printed 1st editions as of now, so that's pretty much worthless. In fact, since there are so many copies, having a "1st Edition" Harry Potter (unless it's, say, the first book which only had 500 or so copies) then you don't have anything special on your hands.

I doubt very highly it's signed. For one, the seller would be asking for more than $10. She signed very few, if any.

katiemac
07-29-2005, 01:50 AM
So then I spent the whole book waiting for Sirius to get killed. It sucked.

This is why I wish the publishers had refrained from releasing anything like this at all. The second I heard a major character was going to die, I deduced it had to be Sirius. His death didn't hit me nearly as hard as it should have, because I was expecting it.

I knew someone was going to die this time around, too. (You could have counted on it happening, anyway, even if the publishers hadn't said anything.) I always figured Dumbledore was marked in some way, but fortunately I forgot everything while I was reading and it was just as unexpected as it should have been. I like how they fought to keep this book so undercover, not just so a couple of prats couldn't ruin it, but because too many clues up front gets boring.

From what I've seen from the Goblet of Fire trailer, too, the movies have adopted this persona. No mention of Voldemort's return, just Triwizard stuff. Of course, that could change.

mkcbunny
07-29-2005, 05:47 AM
... just so a couple of prats couldn't ruin it, but because too many clues up front gets boring.

"prats"

Great word.

And I am just on the edge of my seat about GoF "the movie." Perhaps when I re-read them all I will change my mind. But, for now, GoF is my favorite. That said, I think OotP has excellent screen potential. Not my favorite book [in fact, my least favorite aaaak, don't shoot me now], but I could see how it would make a dynamic and imaginitive film.

Christine N.
07-29-2005, 04:00 PM
No, no, I agree. GoF is my favorite too. OotP was about 100 pages too long.

Azure Skye
07-29-2005, 08:01 PM
I suspect that Snape will finally redeem himself by saving Harry--I firmly believe Snape was in love with Lily Evans/Potter. All the info about her being such a good potions student can't have been in there for naught.


This is my theory too. I'm wondering if Dumbledore was calling out to Snape for help or that he was actually sacrificing himself for the Order. He knew he was going to die. If Dumbledore was as smart a wizard that everyone believed him to be why would he put so much trust in Snape?

I also believe Snape was in love with Lily.

mkcbunny
07-29-2005, 09:34 PM
I also believe Snape was in love with Lily.
If this was a soap opera, you know Harry would find out that Snape was his father.

DTNg
07-29-2005, 09:48 PM
This is my theory too. I'm wondering if Dumbledore was calling out to Snape for help or that he was actually sacrificing himself for the Order. He knew he was going to die. If Dumbledore was as smart a wizard that everyone believed him to be why would he put so much trust in Snape?

I also believe Snape was in love with Lily.

I think there was something there as well. I'm also wondering if Lily was in the cave with Regulus Black to steal the locket -- there has to be a reason it's been drilled in our heads that she excelled in potions.

Could the potion Dumbledore drank actually have been an antidote to death? Perhaps he's just slumbering peacefully for now? He's free to chase Voldemort undetected, Snape can go underground and get closer to Voldemort and Harry is free to find and kill Voldemort on his own. I'm not sure if Dumbledore is dead or alive, but I'm postive he and Snape made some sort of plan before his death.

Azure Skye
07-29-2005, 10:13 PM
Have you all seen this?

http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/introduction.html

katiemac
07-29-2005, 10:24 PM
Interesting link, Azura. I skimmed one of the pages, and found it interesting whoever developed the page thinks Snape read Narcissa's mind to find out "the plan." That makes sense, something I hadn't realized before. He calls Voldemort the most accomplished Legilimens, but I'd say that title goes to Snape himself.


I'm wondering if Dumbledore was calling out to Snape for help or that he was actually sacrificing himself for the Order. He knew he was going to die.

That's what I decided. When Hermione first sees Dumbledore's hand, she tells Ron and Harry that there are very old, very dark curses that are permanent. Voldemort would have used one of these to guard the ring, hence Dumbledore's injury. However, she also says in the same sentence there are poisons without antidotes, and I believe Dumbledore drank one of them, and knew what he was drinking when he did so.

I'm increasingly interested in what exactly Dumbledore saw, though, what he thought was happening when he drank that potion.

Azure Skye
07-29-2005, 10:29 PM
The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that Dumbledore and Snape had this planned all along.

Lisa Y
07-30-2005, 04:27 AM
I can't stop thinking about Aragog's venom. Could that have been used to make a sort of anti-death potion? And if Regulus (or whoever) removed Voldemort's potion (to get the real horcrux), where did the potion that Dumbledore drank come from?


Hmmm

DTNg
08-04-2005, 10:07 PM
It's been suggested to me that Harry isn't the chosen one. Neville is and he'll actually be the one to kill Voldemort and save the day in the end.

Sarita
08-04-2005, 10:33 PM
It's been suggested to me that Harry isn't the chosen one. Neville is and he'll actually be the one to kill Voldemort and save the day in the end. That wouldn't surprise me, only didn't Dumbledore say that Voldemort in essence made Harry the chosen one by chosing him?

katiemac
08-05-2005, 12:19 AM
I thought this thread was dead!

I find the "choices" theme in these books extremely intriguing. The prophecies aren't real, rather it's people's choices that make them. I think since the 5th book Neville really is showing promise and has more to come. I always pegged him for fixing Bellatrix, though, not Voldemort. Still, anything's possible.

ChunkyC
08-05-2005, 03:31 AM
If this was a soap opera, you know Harry would find out that Snape was his father.
Oh gawd, please don't let that happen! "Luke -- I mean, Harry, I am your father!" AAAIIIIIEEEEEE!!!! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif

mkcbunny
08-05-2005, 05:04 AM
Oh gawd, please don't let that happen! "Luke -- I mean, Harry, I am your father!" AAAIIIIIEEEEEE!!!! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif
Maybe Lily wasn't the saint we all thought. :)

katiemac
08-05-2005, 05:37 AM
Oh no. The rumors are gonna fly.

Azure Skye
08-05-2005, 05:37 AM
That wouldn't surprise me, only didn't Dumbledore say that Voldemort in essence made Harry the chosen one by chosing him?


I think you're right.

Lantern Jack
08-05-2005, 09:21 AM
If Dumbledore knew anything about anything (and he doesn't), he'd reincarnate as a ghost. Then he could spy on Voldemort and Big V couldn't do jack squat about it, unless he has another basilisk up his sleeve. Plus, Dumbleydore could look out for Harry 24-7. Also, if Voldemort's so smart, why doesn't he just steal a time turner and do a "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure"? Dumbledore is right. He is "a barmy, old codger." DING-DONG, DUMB-DUMBDORE IS DEAD! ELECT DOLORES UMBRIDGE FOR MINISTER OF MAGIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!:guns:

Lantern Jack
08-05-2005, 09:39 AM
...and as a former card-carrying member of the veri-colored empire, I would like to propose the following top-10 romantic entanglements:
10. Pansy Parkinson and Moaning Myrtle
9. Rita Skeeter and Hermione Granger
8. Severus Snape and Neville Longbottom
7. Peeves the Poltergeist and Argus Filch
6. Rubeus Hagrid and Baby Norbert
5. Ronald Weasley and Viktor Krum
4. Molly Weasley and Fleur Delacour
3. Fred and George Weasley
2. Petunia Dursley and Arabella Figg
1. Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy (methinks the two of them protest far too much)

Selene LuPaine
08-05-2005, 10:01 AM
I do not understand the love for Harry Potter though I have seen the movies. I will say though that the griffin was awesome.

DTNg
08-05-2005, 02:58 PM
That wouldn't surprise me, only didn't Dumbledore say that Voldemort in essence made Harry the chosen one by chosing him?

Pretty much, though in book 5 Dumbledore did say that either Harry or Neville fit the description of the prophesy. Voldemort thinks it's Harry,but what if it isn't?

DTNg
08-05-2005, 02:58 PM
I do not understand the love for Harry Potter though I have seen the movies. I will say though that the griffin was awesome.

Did you read the books?

I was hesitant at first, my nephews convinced me. After that I was hooked.

John13
08-05-2005, 04:02 PM
To Voldemort,killing Dumbledore would be the ultimate sign of loyalty.That would put Snape in a powerful position to undermine Voldemort from the inside.I reckon he arranged it with Dumbledore.Dumbledore saw the big picture.To save all the wizards he considered his life expendable.He was old anyway,and he had a withered hand from that thing.

mkcbunny
08-05-2005, 08:39 PM
... He was old anyway,and he had a withered hand from that thing.
Yeah, old and withered. May as well not live. LOL.

Christine N.
08-05-2005, 08:44 PM
It was a hippogriff in the third movie, not a griffin. (Darn us fantasy writers!) The difference is that a griffin is half eagle, half lion. The hippogriff is half griffin, half horse. Which is an odd thing, since the griffin's main source of food is... horses. So the hippogriff is a significant creature.

LOL. I love mythical beasts.

katiemac
08-06-2005, 12:21 AM
If Dumbledore knew anything about anything (and he doesn't), he'd reincarnate as a ghost.

I don't think Dumbledore would come back as a ghost, but I do think someone important already has. Namely, R.A.B.

loquax
08-06-2005, 12:35 AM
I dislike the use of mythical beasts in all fantasy. And by that, I mean "traditional" beasts. I'm sick of dragons, griffons, hippogriffs, cockatrices, unicorns, harpies - all of 'em. The best ones are the ones she makes up herself anyway!

But talking of mythical beasts, I have two first editions of those HP school books. I was walking through the town and saw them, and bought them. It was only then that I realised I'd got them on the day they came out - a day, incidentally, no one really knew the date of, due to lack of hype. Score!

Christine N.
08-06-2005, 02:32 AM
Which ones has she made up?? I've heard of boggarts, red caps, hinkypunks, pixies... I can't think of a single beast she's made up. Even the thestrals... I've heard of them, but I think I heard them called Abraxan horses. I can't recall right off.

Some of them are obscure, yes, but I think they all "existed" before. She has put her own spin on certain things - the basilsk, for example is reputed to only be 12 inches long. Maybe the house elf - just a different kind of elf. I'm not trying to be rude, I really can't think of any.

mkcbunny
08-06-2005, 02:36 AM
I don't think Dumbledore would come back as a ghost, but I do think someone important already has. Namely, R.A.B.
Please elaborate on R.A.B. Sounds intriguing, and I'm not sure what you are referring to.

katiemac
08-06-2005, 05:16 AM
Please elaborate on R.A.B. Sounds intriguing, and I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Sure. I don't have any support or anything like that, but I was thinking R.A.B. (Regulus) might still be around as a ghost. For awhile I was sure Regulus had worked alone to get the locket for a couple of reasons. First, there was only one name on the note. Two, only one over-age wizard could get across the lake. Three, if someone else was an accomplice (like Lily Potter), I figured Dumbledore would have known about the existence of Horcruxes, including the one in the cave. Plus, if someone like Lily had worked with Regulus, I would also assume Sirius would have known his brother wasn't such a dead-beat.

So, I was just trying to figure out how Harry would ever learn the real story about the locket horcrux if the only witness were dead. There's a ghost that lives in the Weasley house, and I'm not saying Regulus is that ghost, but I've always wondered about that person's identity and if it would ever be important. I thought maybe, just maybe, Regulus is still hanging around somewhere as a ghost himself. It was made plain that Sirius would never return as a ghost, but would his brother?

Anyway, I've since rearranged the idea that Regulus worked alone and I've decided he definitely had an accomplice. After all, if Dumbledore couldn't do it alone, I doubt anyone could. So I got to thinking again about who it could be -- someone who's still around who could tell Harry the truth, someone who wouldn't sign their name, and someone who wouldn't count. Someone, also, who wouldn't run off to tell the Order what he knows. A friend came up with a house-elf. We almost simultaneously decided on Kreacher.

So, in short, I'm still entertaining the idea Regulus could be a ghost. Like I said, there's no real evidence, and even the note said R.A.B. was "facing death." It was just a thought that popped up to expain how Harry was going to find out the truth. Plus, I think the death world (creepy veil, anyone?) has so far been under-explained and will be addressed in more detail later.

mkcbunny
08-06-2005, 07:06 AM
... someone who's still around who could tell Harry the truth, someone who wouldn't sign their name, and someone who wouldn't count. Someone, also, who wouldn't run off to tell the Order what he knows. A friend came up with a house-elf. We almost simultaneously decided on Kreacher.

No wonder Kreacher is cranky. Interesting theory.

Though if Regulus is a ghost, then it needn't be someone who is alive. As someone said earlier, all that talk about Lily being so good at potions has to be there for a reason, although I think that it could simply be there to set up the history of Snape's feelings for Lily -- one of the reasons Snape liked her. I keep thinking that if it was Lily, then the Order would have known about Regulus and the locket. Unless they went into the cave right before the Potters died and she didn't have time to tell anyone. But that seems so unlikely.

It's also possible that there are Pensieve vials from either or both Potters marked specifically for Harry. Maybe when he hits 17, he'll get some kind of "hope chest" type thing from his parents with more information. Or perhaps an "in the event of Dumbledore's death" box for him. Rowling could cover revelations by anyone alive or dead using the Pensieve -- not just Dumbledore, as we all expect will happen regarding Snape's actions on the tower and in general.


I think the death world (creepy veil, anyone?) has so far been under-explained and will be addressed in more detail later.
Agreed.

katiemac
08-06-2005, 08:25 AM
Though if Regulus is a ghost, then it needn't be someone who is alive.

Exactly. Which opens up the door for a thousand more possibilities. I'm pretty sure Rowling wouldn't throw a random character in the mix for something so huge, though. The accomplice's name would at least have been mentioned somewhere a long the line.


I keep thinking that if it was Lily, then the Order would have known about Regulus and the locket. Unless they went into the cave right before the Potters died and she didn't have time to tell anyone. But that seems so unlikely.

My feelings exactly. Which also seems to rule out any other Order members in my mind, past or present. Besides, Lily would have either been pregnant or just had a baby, so that doesn't seem quite right. She risked her life directly for Harry, but I don't find her rushing off to danger so easily otherwise given her new motherhood.


Rowling could cover revelations by anyone alive or dead using the Pensieve -- not just Dumbledore, as we all expect will happen regarding Snape's actions on the tower and in general.

I would expect Harry to inherit a few things from Dumbledore, the Pensieve included. Or, at the very least, it will be available to him, including any memories left unseen. As for anything directly from the Potters, I'm hoping he finds something interesting at Godric's Hollow.

mkcbunny
08-06-2005, 10:11 AM
Besides, Lily would have either been pregnant or just had a baby, so that doesn't seem quite right. She risked her life directly for Harry, but I don't find her rushing off to danger so easily otherwise given her new motherhood.

Now I am picturing a VERY pregnant Lily lumbering into that boat in the cave. LOL. Or, if it was after Harry's birth, Lily passing the baby off to James: "Eeeem, would you mind, terribly, looking ahftah lit'l Harry, luv? I've a wee bit of an errand to run. Order business, you know. Back in a jiffy!"

Christine N.
08-06-2005, 03:38 PM
Harry was one year old when his parents died.

katiemac
08-06-2005, 11:31 PM
Harry was one year old when his parents died.


Right. If we're going with Regulus as R.A.B., though, then he died the same year Harry was born (before or after, we don't know).


Now I am picturing a VERY pregnant Lily lumbering into that boat in the cave. LOL. Or, if it was after Harry's birth, Lily passing the baby off to James: "Eeeem, would you mind, terribly, looking ahftah lit'l Harry, luv? I've a wee bit of an errand to run. Order business, you know. Back in a jiffy!"

*snort*

loquax
08-07-2005, 02:54 AM
Which ones has she made up?? I've heard of boggarts, red caps, hinkypunks, pixies... I can't think of a single beast she's made up. Even the thestrals... I've heard of them, but I think I heard them called Abraxan horses. I can't recall right off.

Some of them are obscure, yes, but I think they all "existed" before. She has put her own spin on certain things - the basilsk, for example is reputed to only be 12 inches long. Maybe the house elf - just a different kind of elf. I'm not trying to be rude, I really can't think of any.

My favourite creatures in the whole series have been the Blast-ended skrewt and the pathetic old flobberworm.

Christine N.
08-07-2005, 05:25 AM
Ah yes, thank you. I wracked my brain, and just drew a complete blank. Those were cool.

Lantern Jack
08-07-2005, 09:12 AM
urging J.K. Rowlings to write a seventh book which is 1,500 pages long, at least. It takes two years for these books to show up and I blink my eyes and I'm on the last page. Seeing how the last book is long-awaited finale, this one should be at least as long as Jeffrey Eugenide's "Middlesex". I'm totally serious about this, only I don't know how to implement a petition. Now, I know the publishers would probably freak, but, let's face it, Rowling is that rarest of the rare writers, an ink-slinger for which the publisher is a non-component in the editorial process. Really, they're utterly superfluous.

Lantern Jack
08-07-2005, 09:19 AM
It's plain as that wart between Yubaba's eyeballs in "Spirited Away": Snape is to the Harry Potter series as a whole what Sirius Black was to "The Prisoner of Azkaban," a colossal red herring, a sheep in wolves clothing, albeit a sheep who can Avada Kevadra the greatest wizard who ever lived back to the Stone Age.

And while we're on the subject of Yubaba's wart, call me kooky, but every time I see it, I just want to plant a big, wet one square in the middle of it.

P.P.S. Anyone who knows who Harry Potter is but has never heard of Yubaba the Bath House Witch should be forced to make tender love with a Blast-ended Skrewt at wand point.

loquax
08-07-2005, 09:58 PM
LJ - it's been raised before, and pretty much everyone agrees that Snape was on Dumbledore's side, but there is always going to be the problem of "you can only produce a full AK if you seriously hate the person you are doing it on".

Which is why there are theories that he mouthed AK but actually peformed a simple spark spell nonverbally.

P.S. Although I'm an anime nut; have seen every dragonball/z/gt episode; have followed naruto religiously as well as trigun, escaflowne, nge, gundam, bleach and all that, I still haven't seen spirited away. I'm sorry.

Lantern Jack
08-08-2005, 04:05 AM
Bellatrix says "righteous indignation" cannot sustain a dark curse. Hatred doesn't play into it at all. Specifically, a person has to enjoy causing pain. Hatred is a dislike for a person. Sadism, on the other hand, is a delight in causing pain. A person can be a sadist and also be a good person. Watch the movie, "Secretary" for an excellent example of a good-natured S&M-er. Snape, while aligned with the Allied forces, clearly takes some pleasure in causing other people pain. And, even if hate does fuel dark magic, maybe Snape was using his hatred of Lord Voldemort of James Potter or his abusive parents to power his killing curse.

mkcbunny
08-08-2005, 08:49 AM
Maybe this is old news, but I hadn't seen it until tonight. Someone was wearing this T-Shirt at dinner, and it made me laugh.

[Warning: Liberal Humor Forthcoming]
T-Shirt (http://www.goats.com/store/item/tshirt_rfv-1.html)

Christine N.
08-08-2005, 04:03 PM
That is awesome. Now we need a shirt that says "Up with Snape." or "I voted for Dumbledore"

AdamH
08-08-2005, 06:25 PM
Cool shirt. Maybe also a shirt titled "Severus Foreverus"

katiemac
08-08-2005, 09:41 PM
Maybe this is old news, but I hadn't seen it until tonight. Someone was wearing this T-Shirt at dinner, and it made me laugh.

Haha. I have it.

katiemac
08-08-2005, 11:10 PM
It seems like every day someone I know finishes the book and therefore needs to talk about it. I've found more than one frantic voicemail on my phone with a similar message: "Have you finished Harry Potter yet? I need to talk to you!"

Anyway, the more people who finish the more theories abound. The latest one features Harry's mother as the missing horcrux, because Voldemort offered her the chance to live. I have to admit, that part of Azkaban always made me wonder. If she and Harry's father were such notorious enemies against Voldemort, wouldn't he kill her straight away?

Christine N.
08-09-2005, 12:59 AM
Not necessarily. He wanted Harry more, b/c of the prophecy.

mkcbunny
08-09-2005, 11:13 AM
It seems like every day someone I know finishes the book and therefore needs to talk about it. I've found more than one frantic voicemail on my phone with a similar message: "Have you finished Harry Potter yet? I need to talk to you!"
I just gave it to someone last Sunday for her birthday, and today I got an e-mail from her with a string of questions about "what's going on." Still waiting for the hubby to finish, but he's taking a looooooong time.

Lisa Y
08-09-2005, 03:09 PM
Cool shirt. Maybe also a shirt titled "Severus Foreverus"


I would buy it!

Lantern Jack
08-10-2005, 12:52 AM
of my capacity for breeding trivial tangents like this one. Then I stumbled upon one of the best quotes I've ever read in "The Power of One": "Good conversational debate is an end in itself, and talking for the love of conversation is what makes us human."

WriteRead
08-10-2005, 04:04 AM
Declaring that I didn't read any of the books in this septology (She wrote seven books, right, in this continuous saga of a young conjurer) of hers, would be a shame? Tell me it's not!

Dan