Why the Terminator franchise is failing...

James81 · Oct 19, 2009

Ok, so this thread is about the franchise as a whole and not any one movie, so I'm hoping this thread can remain it's own thread.

That being said, I just finished watching the Sarah Connor Chronicles Season 2 DVDs last night, and I didn't even realize that they cancelled the series until I went online to see when Season 3 was going to air and discovered that they axed the series (although rumors abound that they are going to tie up the loose ends in the series with a direct to DVD movie).

News of the cancellation also got me to thinking about how Terminator Salvation kinda tanked. I mean, I guess the box office was ok, but I think they were expecting it to be more successful than it was.

In most fans eyes, the only good parts of this franchise was the first two movies. Everything after that has sort of gone sour in a hurry for most of the fans.

The answer, to me, is very clear as to why this is happening. The reason the series is failing is because none of these movies (or the TV series) is giving the fans what they truly want to see. They keep skirting around it, drawing on the Terminator hunting the Connors storyline over and over and over again. It got so redundant in the TV series that it was like they were kicking the shit out of a Terminator like every other episode and they were doing it easily. I mean, the first two movies established how hard it was to kill these things and suddenly you have a TV series where they are turning Terminators into scrap metal in a matter of minutes with little "fight."

And the new movie didn't do much better. They, yet again, made the focus on a Terminator hunting John Connor and it was almost infuriating to see them tap that same storyline AGAIN.

So what are the fans really wanting to see? The fans, in general, want to see TWO things:

1. The war against the machines
2. John Connor going from scared, whiney little boy to leader of the resistance.

And they aren't doing that. Every avenue these shows take are almost purposely AVOIDING that storyline. They've turned John Connor into a Bruce Wayne of sorts...where the interesting stuff isn't in the character of John himself, but the people who surround him. Which is ironic since they cast Christian Bale (the Dark Knight himself) to play John Connor.

How can we beat it into Hollywood's head that THAT is what fans want to see. They don't care about Sarah Connor anymore. They don't care about terminators learning the value of human life anymore. They don't even care about Terminators hunting John anymore. That storyline has been beat to death.

However, there is great and vast untapped stories that are every fan's dream if they would just do what we've been begging them to do since the first movie came out: SHOW US THE WAR! Show us John Connor at his most badassed moment, who is completely self-reliable and not dependent on a Terminator to save his life.

How much better would've Salvation been if it showed us John rounding up people to fight the machines? If it showed us intense battle sequences of man vs. machine?

How much better would've the TV show been if it had been the JOHN Connor chronicles, showing us how a traumatized John Connor went from being a whiney misfit and slowly began training himself for his future mission? I think the show would've been far more entertaining if there wasn't a new Terminator sent back through time like every five minutes. If the show focused on John and Sarah's attempts to unravel the beginnings of skynet.

And as such, I think they managed to drain the life out of the franchise. One can only hope that the next movie (should they decide to make one) will give us these elements.

maestrowork · Oct 19, 2009

James Cameron and/or Schwarzenneger are no longer involved. That's why.

Noah Body · Oct 19, 2009

More so Cameron than Schwartzenschnitzle, but yeah.

icerose · Oct 19, 2009

T3 irritated me because in all that time, he'd never grown up, and he had more balls as a 12 year old than as an adult. Haven't watched the chronicals. I know my husband and I were really hoping to see the start of the actual war in T3 and not just how the human race fell. If they would have had Connor buck up it would have been quite a bit better.

TS was...yeah. They totally did the wrong story line. They could have done so much more. But as you say, they focused on the terminator saving his ass once again.

I wish they would have gone with the planned ending of the terminator stealing his skin because then we would have known at that point he would have become the badass we've been waiting for in the next movie!

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 19, 2009

I'll echo Ray. Ahnold was the franchise. Otherwise its just man against machines and that could be any sci-fi movie.

maestrowork · Oct 19, 2009

John Connor simply isn't a very interesting character. Sarah Connor is, and they try to make that work with the TV series, but that too got repetitive: How often could they do the Terminator attacks-see them run-see them hide-then Terminator finds them-Terminator attacks plot?

That's the major problem. We've seen that plot a million times now, and who gives a shit about John Connor? We want Terminators. We want to see the war. We've heard about the future and the war so many times now but no one is showing us anything. Terminator Salvation, like someone said, was the wrong story with the wrong protagonist -- it was much more interesting when Marcus was onscreen. But once it switched to John Connor, it just sank. Poor writing and execution, too.

What they need are good writers, a kick-ass director (on par with Nolan who reimagined the Batman series with great skills), and rewrite John Connor to make him more interesting. He's not a kid running away from his destiny anymore. Yeah, I know it's the end of the world, but give him some sense of humor, for crying out loud.

Jcomp · Oct 19, 2009

I'd love to see a series start off from the actual Judgment Day and show the world trying to survive and cope with this sudden onslaught from a super-intelligent man-made A.I. Part of the problem, to me, is that the series is still locked on these few characters when you have this incredibly huge story to tell about a global cataclysm and world war. You have a wealth of stories to tell, angles to explore, and we're still stuck on John and Sarah? Hell, the 3rd movie even told us that he dies before the war's over. The stakes and stories are greater than John and Sarah.

Another part of the problem with the franchise is that, due to the time travel, we've seen the past and future of the stories. There's little mystery left to anything within the confines the writers keep establishing for themselves. I never was interested in the Sarah Connor Chronicles because it seemed redundant. We've been here, and we know where it all inevitably leads. At this point, all you have is a bunch of convoluted developments in between the bookends of "Reese impregnates Sarah" and "we're at war with the machines." The continued exploration into time travel has only served to muck up the overall story arc.

JamieFord · Oct 19, 2009

Maybe it shouldn't be a franchise? Maybe they should have stopped with the first two movies and called it good. Some things just get diluted. The first two Alien movies were fantastic, and now we have Alien vs. Predator vs. Jason vs. (The terminator? *sigh* It's probably been scripted...)

I think your point about the series is spot on. But then we get Terminator Salvation, which seemed to have more in common with a shoot-em-up like Starship Troopers, than the original movie.

I loved Linda Hamilton's quote, "Was perfect with two films. It was a complete circle, and it was enough in itself. But there will always be those who will try to milk the cow."

maestrowork · Oct 19, 2009

I think there's still potential with the future storyline. We knew practically nothing (yet). The opportunity missed with TS is that instead of telling the "prequel" (about which I was led to believe the story is, and I looked forward to that with anticipation), but it wasn't. Again, TS was a filler story: it's neither about the war/judgment day or how Connor ended up sending Kyle Reese back.

The problem I think is that nobody wants to COMMIT to it, because once you told how Judgment Day happened, the war, etc. then it's set in stone, like the Star Wars movies. They tried to change things around (how Judgment Day was described by Kyle) that with T2 and T3 (the latter ended exactly before the apocalypse but we never got to witness it actually happening). And with Time Travel stories, they succumb to the temptation of changing things over and over, alternating what we already knew. And that gave the audience a bad taste in their mouths, like "who that frak cares, then, if you're going to change your mind?"

I agree that the Terminator franchise, unlike, say X-Men or Batman, is restricted by the frames: what happened in T1 and Judgment Day. Everything else becomes fillers. What they need to do is tell us, once and for all, what happened when the war starts leading to the point of him sending Kyle Reese back (the beginning of T1). That's what interests me the most, since I've seen everything else.

What happened AFTER he sent Kyle back? Now that's another interesting take because THAT can change, depending on the outcome of what happened before. However, changing what happened between T1 and Judgment Day becomes tiresome.

James81 · Oct 19, 2009

Oh, and here's another pet peeve of mine about the movies after T2.

Why can't any of these people get the date (and John's age) right?

T2 was set in 1995 (it says so on the screen where the T-1000 is searching for John in the beginning of the movie). He would've been 10 years old. But in T3, they said he was 13. In the SCC, they say he was 12 and that it was 1997.

Do these people even watch the movies before they wrote this stuff? I don't get it.

seun · Oct 19, 2009

The problem with the Terminator films is the same with the Die Hard films.

They've been turned into cash cows with no regard or respect for the basics of the original story and characters. They need violence and swearing, not some wanksplat executive thinking they can get away with covering swearing with a gunshot or the guy who made the Charlie's Angels films having anything do with it.

AdamH · Oct 22, 2009

The reason it doesn't work is that the story arc has been told.

T1 introduced the Terminator to tight leather pants, sunglasses, and a bad-a$$ attitude. And brought us to young Sarah Connor.
T2 (the best of the series in my opinion) made the Terminator a good guy with an evil morphing terminator and focused more on a young John Connor and a buff Sarah.
T3 brought us to Judgement Day. Though it felt gratuitous and forced. I mean, what's up with the excuse that the first two movies only DELAYED Judgement Day and not avoided it. I suppose for the sake of time travel loops, it had to work that way...but it seemed weak.

Anything after that, Salvation and the Chronicles shouldn't have been done. The only stories that make sense for a movie sequel would be:
-about John Connor getting Kyle Reese back in time the first time. Maybe have them find out about the machines creating a time portal and planning on sending back a Terminator. John and Kyle could be chasing after them trying to stop them but then Kyle gets sucked into the vortex...or something. I'm sure CGI is good enough to create a believable Schwartzenegger to .
-about John Connor reprogramming a second Schwartzneggar and sending that back for the second movie.

Also, the Chronicles could've worked if they re-invented the franchise like they did for Superman and Smallville. Just a different feel in the same universe. Maybe from the POV of the guy developing SkyNet or something.

childeroland · Oct 22, 2009

James81 said:
Oh, and here's another pet peeve of mine about the movies after T2.

Why can't any of these people get the date (and John's age) right?

T2 was set in 1995 (it says so on the screen where the T-1000 is searching for John in the beginning of the movie). He would've been 10 years old. But in T3, they said he was 13. In the SCC, they say he was 12 and that it was 1997.

Do these people even watch the movies before they wrote this stuff? I don't get it.

SCC and T2 are supposed to take place in alternate continuities, I believe. T3 is supposedly not canon anymore -- at least that is how the goofs have been explained away.

dgiharris · Oct 22, 2009

James81 said:
So what are the fans really wanting to see? The fans, in general, want to see TWO things:

1. The war against the machines
2. John Connor going from scared, whiney little boy to leader of the resistance.

And they aren't doing that.

This is why they will not get any more of my money.

IMO, the reason they aren't doing it is because it is hard and requires good writing and story and plot development.

Why do all of that when you can just blow stuff up and recycle the same old plot points ad nausseum.

IMO, the HOllywood Execs only see short term profits.

There is a saying that I think they do not adhere to.

You can sheer a sheep many times but you can only skin it once.

IMO, they've skinned the Terminator franchise for short term profits.

Had they have actually given us what we wanted, they could have sheered us for years to come. But instead, they got lazy and short sighted and as a result, the hardcore fanbase is pissed, feels betrayed, and will not be watching any more Terminators.

Mel...

maestrowork · Oct 22, 2009

AdamH said:
The only stories that make sense for a movie sequel would be:
-about John Connor getting Kyle Reese back in time the first time. Maybe have them find out about the machines creating a time portal and planning on sending back a Terminator. John and Kyle could be chasing after them trying to stop them but then Kyle gets sucked into the vortex...or something. I'm sure CGI is good enough to create a believable Schwartzenegger to .
-about John Connor reprogramming a second Schwartzneggar and sending that back for the second movie.

Can't do that: the story will then be done with. No more milking.

They will have to continue to reinvent "what might have happened" in the past to extend this franchise forever, like they did with Superman, Star Trek, Star Gate, etc.

James81 · Oct 22, 2009

maestrowork said:
Can't do that: the story will then be done with. No more milking.

Heh, well they could always just reboot the series in 10 years.

roseangel · Oct 22, 2009

I'm more interested in Sarah Connor and what took place between the first two movies, showing her as she develops her skills and convictions as she tries to raise and train John.
They could have made a series about that, no terminators, just a woman against a mega corporation attempting to circumvent a horrible future.

maestrowork · Oct 22, 2009

roseangel said:
I'm more interested in Sarah Connor and what took place between the first two movies, showing her as she develops her skills and convictions as she tries to raise and train John.
They could have made a series about that, no terminators, just a woman against a mega corporation attempting to circumvent a horrible future.

It wouldn't be called Terminator, but "Sarah Connor in the Amazon Jungles."

Zoombie · Oct 22, 2009

Am I the only one who was really pissed off that in Terminator 2 they flagrantly broke continuity?

Firstly: Kyle Reece implicitly says they blew up the time machine and Skynet SECONDS after he went through. Skynet was GONE. GOOOOOOONE.
Secondly: Only organic matter could go back in time...but the liquid metal sure ain't organic!
Thirdly: Um...there is no thirdly. But those two were enough to irritate me enough to put Terminator 1 as the better film.

Now, don't get me wrong...not as good as Terminator is kind of like saying "You're slightly less rich than Bill Gates" or "you're slightly less awesome than Patric Stewart" or "you get laid slightly less than Captain Kirk."

Sure, you're not *quite* as good as the one above you...but you're still capable of being richer, awesomer, and sexier than 99.99999% of the rest of the market.

Satori1977 · Oct 23, 2009

Jcomp said:
I'd love to see a series start off from the actual Judgment Day and show the world trying to survive and cope with this sudden onslaught from a super-intelligent man-made A.I. Part of the problem, to me, is that the series is still locked on these few characters when you have this incredibly huge story to tell about a global cataclysm and world war. You have a wealth of stories to tell, angles to explore, and we're still stuck on John and Sarah? Hell, the 3rd movie even told us that he dies before the war's over. The stakes and stories are greater than John and Sarah.

Exactly what he said

Satori1977 · Oct 23, 2009

roseangel said:
I'm more interested in Sarah Connor and what took place between the first two movies, showing her as she develops her skills and convictions as she tries to raise and train John.
They could have made a series about that, no terminators, just a woman against a mega corporation attempting to circumvent a horrible future.

That could be interesting too. No terminators, just a story about a mother and a son. See how she changes from the scared girl in the first, to the almost nonfeeling woman in the second. I would watch that.

regdog · Oct 23, 2009

I agree with JComp. I want to see Judgement Day. I want to see the war, how humanity survived, and the rise of the Machines.

T3 was so bad. If the John Connor in that movie was the savior of mankind, we're screwed.

James81 · Oct 23, 2009

Zoombie said:
Firstly: Kyle Reece implicitly says they blew up the time machine and Skynet SECONDS after he went through. Skynet was GONE. GOOOOOOONE.

He said their "defense grid was smashed, we'd won." Skynet wasn't gone. They had just delivered the death blow to skynet, not destroyed it entirely.

Another thing to think about is that there is no garauntee that the terminators/reese from the first film were the first people to go through. Maybe the T-1000 and T2 Arnie were the first ones to go through.

Zoombie said:
Secondly: Only organic matter could go back in time...but the liquid metal sure ain't organic!

It's possible that they covered the T-1000 with a layer of real organic skin first. And then after that it was burned off when the truck exploded.

MattW · Oct 23, 2009

I want the Aliens version of the Terminator movies - more machines, lots of firepower, and our protagonists in way over their heads.

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