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Rowan
10-04-2009, 06:54 PM
I've watched some UFC bouts on TV (my dog growls at the screen so I can't hear and eventually just give up :crazy:) but I'm clueless as to the "fighting lingo". If there are any MMA fighters out there ---- can you give me some of the correct 'terminology' used to describe a fight (maneuvers employed, etc.)?? My scenario features an unsanctioned match and fighters are more skilled in stand-up fighting v. ground (grappling?), etc. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say it's more of a "bare knuckles" scenario.

I appreciate any input! Thank you :)

Nick Blaze
10-05-2009, 12:20 AM
I don't know anything about what the UFC uses. Most of the terminology I use is Japanese, and most UFC fighters don't focus on just Japanese martial arts. So, I fear I cannot be of much help. However, ground fighting is generall refered to as grappling, to afferm that. "Bare knuckles" and "stand-up" fighting is basically just boxing, as I am lead to believe.

There are many different kinds of fighting, of course. Fists against fists, kicks against kicks are generally boxing. However, redirecting momentum to throw you opponent can be either jujitsu or aikido. That's still "stand-up" fighting, even though it throws somebody to the ground.

Rowan
10-05-2009, 12:26 AM
I don't know anything about what the UFC uses. Most of the terminology I use is Japanese, and most UFC fighters don't focus on just Japanese martial arts. So, I fear I cannot be of much help. However, ground fighting is generall refered to as grappling, to afferm that. "Bare knuckles" and "stand-up" fighting is basically just boxing, as I am lead to believe.

There are many different kinds of fighting, of course. Fists against fists, kicks against kicks are generally boxing. However, redirecting momentum to throw you opponent can be either jujitsu or aikido. That's still "stand-up" fighting, even though it throws somebody to the ground.

Hey, Nick! :hi:
If you were to go a few minutes with someone in the ring -- what are some moves you'd use (kicks or punches)?? I prefer a more "bare knuckles" feel v. UFC/MMA actually. The fighters can be of any background - Japanese martial arts, aikido, kenpo, etc. The scene is more 2 guys mucking around - showing off so-to-speak. I just want to avoid all that grappling where they just appear to be rolling around on the ground like wrestlers. :)

Summonere
10-05-2009, 12:47 AM
This site offers a useful glossary:

http://www.groundnpound.org/page.php?124

If your fighters are strikers – that is, those who primarily fight by kicking, punching, kneeing, elbowing, head-butting, and so on – the site gives you some terminology for hand strikes, but not all of it, and it seems to omit naming kicks

If your characters are bare knuckling brawlers, they likely won't have much in the way of technical terminology at their disposal, and other characters who may might just as likely have lots of different names for the same techniques, depending on the origin of their style and the language in which they learned it.

Unless there's a good reason to use technical terms, or your readers are big fans of such things, I suspect that sticking with plain language is probably the best. After all, if you say that guy A drops guy B with a sapu-dallum, then lands on him with a kesa gatame and cracks his arm with a ballistic break, then finishes with a shime-waza, who's gonna know what happened? Some will (assuming I spelled transliterations correctly), but many won't. If you say that guy A tripped guy B, caught his neck with one arm, then broke guy B's elbow over the back of his neck, then choked him into unconsciousness, that sorta gets the idea across.

Rowan
10-05-2009, 02:10 AM
This site offers a useful glossary:

http://www.groundnpound.org/page.php?124

If your fighters are strikers – that is, those who primarily fight by kicking, punching, kneeing, elbowing, head-butting, and so on – the site gives you some terminology for hand strikes, but not all of it, and it seems to omit naming kicks

If your characters are bare knuckling brawlers, they likely won't have much in the way of technical terminology at their disposal, and other characters who may might just as likely have lots of different names for the same techniques, depending on the origin of their style and the language in which they learned it.

Unless there's a good reason to use technical terms, or your readers are big fans of such things, I suspect that sticking with plain language is probably the best. After all, if you say that guy A drops guy B with a sapu-dallum, then lands on him with a kesa gatame and cracks his arm with a ballistic break, then finishes with a shime-waza, who's gonna know what happened? Some will (assuming I spelled transliterations correctly), but many won't. If you say that guy A tripped guy B, caught his neck with one arm, then broke guy B's elbow over the back of his neck, then choked him into unconsciousness, that sorta gets the idea across.

Thank you, Summonere (great website). :) You've brought up a lot of good points. As a reader, I would have no idea what all those terms mean - in fact they sound like some form of bizarre Japanese cooking. :D I'm trying to think like a guy here as the first fight is from a male character's POV (and since he's a former MMA fighter wanted to demonstrate that he's skilled or whatever) - especially in how he sizes up his opponent. But this helps a lot! I'll keep it simple.

sheadakota
10-05-2009, 02:40 AM
Stand up fighting is generally referred to as sparring- the fighters will throw punches (jabs, hooks, upper cuts,) kicks (front, side, roundhouse, back, knee) they can also do arm bars,(this is where you put the joint- shoulder, elbow, wrist- and bend it in a way nature never intended- :)

If they take the other person down to the ground, then the match goes to grappling, where the whole point is to well, get the better position- and get your opponent to tap out- or submit- it all about technique- at least thats what my sensei tells me- and its a lot harder than it looks-

Rowan
10-05-2009, 03:25 AM
Stand up fighting is generally referred to as sparring- the fighters will throw punches (jabs, hooks, upper cuts,) kicks (front, side, roundhouse, back, knee) they can also do arm bars,(this is where you put the joint- shoulder, elbow, wrist- and bend it in a way nature never intended- :)

If they take the other person down to the ground, then the match goes to grappling, where the whole point is to well, get the better position- and get your opponent to tap out- or submit- it all about technique- at least thats what my sensei tells me- and its a lot harder than it looks-

Thank you!

Nick Blaze
10-05-2009, 08:58 AM
Hey, Nick! :hi:
If you were to go a few minutes with someone in the ring -- what are some moves you'd use (kicks or punches)?? I prefer a more "bare knuckles" feel v. UFC/MMA actually. The fighters can be of any background - Japanese martial arts, aikido, kenpo, etc. The scene is more 2 guys mucking around - showing off so-to-speak. I just want to avoid all that grappling where they just appear to be rolling around on the ground like wrestlers. :)

I have trained in a wide variety of martial arts, but I prefer jujitsu (and more so, prefer my school, Shoshin Ryu, of jujitsu). In the ring, it's inevitable that some punches and kicks are thrown, and I am perfectly fine with that. However, closing the distance to grab and throw, then to grapple, is also a good option. But it always depends on the opponent. I will not to hand-to-hand with a VERY skilled boxer for long. Nor would I grapple against a very skilled grappler.

Grappling is very useful no matter how you look at it. Simple moves, such as nikyo, kata/kesa gatame, ikkyo, various ankle, wrist, finger locks, as well as my speciality: chokes. I do not think chokes are allowed in the UFC, but in a real fight where there are no bars held, I would be VERY certain to use them to the fullest. And to top it all off, there are dozens of different kinds of chokes. And dozens of ways to get into them.

Dommo
10-05-2009, 07:31 PM
Chokes are absolutely allowed in the UFC.

In fact it's probably one of the more common ways guys get submitted, outside of the jointlock variants(e.g. armbars).

Rowan
10-06-2009, 02:09 AM
Thank you, Nick Blaze and Dommo! :)

Mike Martyn
10-06-2009, 02:36 AM
You mentioned "sizing up" your opponent. Still interested in that?

Rowan
10-06-2009, 02:45 AM
You mentioned "sizing up" your opponent. Still interested in that?

Yes, very much so.... :)

Mike Martyn
10-06-2009, 09:45 PM
Yes, very much so.... :)

OK, first bear in mind that sparring in your boxing club/dojo/dojang is one thing. There you know everybody and their capabilitites. Oh there may be one or two you can't stand but for he most part, the people you train with are very supportive notwithstanding some of the mad dog sterotypes.

Sure in club/class, sparring can be intense and yes injuries happen but ring fighting is incredibly more intense. I tell people it's ten times more intense but that's just verbal shorthand for something that's difficult to explain. Instead of your buddies, you fight someone who you might never have met, whose abilities you don't know and who might have come hundreds of miles just to knock you out, bust your ribs, whatever.

An old boxer once told me that once a ringfighter, always a ring fighter and by that he meant that you're always sort of "there".

Before the match starts all the fighters stand around warming up and waiting. During that time you "size up" your potential opponents. With enough ring experience, you get to the point where you can look at someone and know their weight within a couple of pounds and their height within an inch.

You also watch how they move but that can be a little more difficult since if you're experienced, you might fake them out by favouring an arm or leg feigning an injury say. Of course that sort of faking is blown after you're first match. What can't be faked, at last in my experience is the look in there eyes. Some guys, their eyes blaze. Some of them, their eyes are somehow defocused, almost blank. Those are the ones who always scared me the most, I have to confess. In the eastern arts, that is referred to as minshun ( sp??) aka white mind or blank mind.

I've been in that zone a time or two and you're mind isn't really blank but it seems to be stuck a way in a corner. Your body is doing the thinking. Or perhaps from a neurological perspective, your cerebrum is almost shut down and your cerebellum (aka hind brain aka reptilian brain) is thinking furiously.

Rowan
10-07-2009, 01:19 AM
Mike --
Thank you!! This is incredibly helpful and is exactly what I was looking for (along with your PM response). I not only like what you said about sizing up your opponent but the look in their eyes, etc.

Thanks again. :)

Nick Blaze
10-07-2009, 07:29 AM
OK, first bear in mind that sparring in your boxing club/dojo/dojang is one thing. There you know everybody and their capabilitites. Oh there may be one or two you can't stand but for he most part, the people you train with are very supportive notwithstanding some of the mad dog sterotypes.

Sure in club/class, sparring can be intense and yes injuries happen but ring fighting is incredibly more intense. I tell people it's ten times more intense but that's just verbal shorthand for something that's difficult to explain. Instead of your buddies, you fight someone who you might never have met, whose abilities you don't know and who might have come hundreds of miles just to knock you out, bust your ribs, whatever.

An old boxer once told me that once a ringfighter, always a ring fighter and by that he meant that you're always sort of "there".

Before the match starts all the fighters stand around warming up and waiting. During that time you "size up" your potential opponents. With enough ring experience, you get to the point where you can look at someone and know their weight within a couple of pounds and their height within an inch.

You also watch how they move but that can be a little more difficult since if you're experienced, you might fake them out by favouring an arm or leg feigning an injury say. Of course that sort of faking is blown after you're first match. What can't be faked, at last in my experience is the look in there eyes. Some guys, their eyes blaze. Some of them, their eyes are somehow defocused, almost blank. Those are the ones who always scared me the most, I have to confess. In the eastern arts, that is referred to as minshun ( sp??) aka white mind or blank mind.

I've been in that zone a time or two and you're mind isn't really blank but it seems to be stuck a way in a corner. Your body is doing the thinking. Or perhaps from a neurological perspective, your cerebrum is almost shut down and your cerebellum (aka hind brain aka reptilian brain) is thinking furiously.

In my martial art, it is called zanshin. It is a state where you do not think, but react, and where your eyes are loose and can see everything. If anybody ever focuses on something, then their peripheral vision declines. So, focus on nothing and you see everything.

I was never trained for "ring fighting" but my martial art taught me well. On the street, I've fought boxers and even a few people skilled with knives. I lived in a bad area. I disagree that you cannot learn "ring fighting" by only being in the ring, but I do agree it would be terribly difficult to do so otherwise. I survived both attacks and emerged... mostly the victor, I suppose. It was intense, and I'll assume more intense than a ring fight, where you don't ever expect a knife or gun to appear.

Even so, I've never heard of minshun. Sounds more Chinese.

Mike Martyn
10-07-2009, 09:22 PM
In my martial art, it is called zanshin. It is a state where you do not think, but react, and where your eyes are loose and can see everything. If anybody ever focuses on something, then their peripheral vision declines. So, focus on nothing and you see everything.

I was never trained for "ring fighting" but my martial art taught me well. On the street, I've fought boxers and even a few people skilled with knives. I lived in a bad area. I disagree that you cannot learn "ring fighting" by only being in the ring, but I do agree it would be terribly difficult to do so otherwise. I survived both attacks and emerged... mostly the victor, I suppose. It was intense, and I'll assume more intense than a ring fight, where you don't ever expect a knife or gun to appear.

Even so, I've never heard of minshun. Sounds more Chinese.

Hi Nick! Both scenarios (ring fighting and street fighting ) have their differences as well as similarities.

Yes to zanshin and it's un - named Western equivalent for both whether he's a boxer or someone adept at the kicking arts (Karate, tae kwon do, muy tai, savat) or is a boxer, you have to watch their feet as well astheir upper body.

The difference is one of anticipation. Unless you deliberatly go out and get into a street fight, you don't have that anticipation/anxiety aspect. On the other hand, you have the assurance that your opponent will stick to the rules and won't, say, hit you in the neck with knife hand or shatter your skull with a baseball bat.

As to whether one is more intense than another, it depends of course on the circumstances. In the ring, is your oppponent 70 pounds heavier than you (been there and picked up a couple of broken ribs in the process)? Or is he a stumble bum?

In the street is your opponent a mouthy weedy fifteen year old or someone adept with a knife? I too have been involved in street altercations and have the knife scars to prove it. Worse case was a junky threatening me with a dirty needle.

I agree that if you train well, your training will see you through and the ring fighting is an optional though interesting exercise always on the understanding that it is unrealistic in that you are using a subset of your techniques. If I have a student who is really unsure about their abilities though, I recommend sparring and some ring time. If nothing else it convinces them that they will not shatter if they're kicked or punched full force.

Rowan
10-08-2009, 01:49 AM
What does it feel like when you get hit - ie., punched in the face or take a kick to the leg, etc.? I've only ever been hit while wearing protective gear (in Academy).

Summonere
10-08-2009, 02:33 AM
Yes to zanshin and it's un - named Western equivalent...

My instructors referred to this as “the thousand-yard stare,” and it's pretty much as you've described. As one of them put it, you're not so much looking at your opponent as through him, as if to a point a thousand yards behind him, the opponent merely something in your way.

The objective is to be aware of not just the opponent, but his spatial relationship to what's around him -- in front, behind, to the sides, above, below. This is important in case the guy has anything close at hand that is or that can be used as a weapon, and it's important in case he has buddies, and it's important because it allows you to remain aware of the whole opponent without missing any of his parts. For instance, if you focus on the middle of your opponent in an attempt to also “see” his hands and feet, you may end up missing them, just as Nick Blaze mentions here:



If anybody ever focuses on something, then their peripheral vision declines. So, focus on nothing and you see everything.
Another thing about this zanshin/minshun/thousand-yard stare thing is that it reminds me of what Bruce Lee wrote and spoke about (and probably named, though I have no idea what he might have called it), which was that the blank mind would respond efficiently to opportunities as they arose, whether to attack or defend. Untroubled by notions of victory or defeat, unhampered by preconceived notions or anticipation, the ready mind would respond without encumbrance or hesitation, and so would the body.

Unfortunately, this becomes increasingly difficult the more you get hit or hurt. :)

Summonere
10-08-2009, 04:41 AM
What does it feel like when you get hit - ie., punched in the face or take a kick to the leg, etc.? I've only ever been hit while wearing protective gear (in Academy).

To lean on someone else's words for a moment:



Getting hit in the head doesn't hurt, but it'll knock you out. Getting hit in the body hurts, but it won't knock you out.
-- paraphrased from Sean O'Grady, former World Boxing Association Lightweight Champion


The simple answer is that getting hit hurts, but how much it hurts is almost entirely dependent upon the pain tolerance of the recipient. One of the things that occurs during regular training and sparring is that the trainee both increases fitness, which offers some protection against abuses to the body, and increases tolerance for discomfort. What initially may seem painful later seems merely uncomfortable, and as one trains long enough, against others of similarly increasing skill level, the ability to strike efficiently increases, which means that more power can be delivered with less effort than when training began. But that doesn't mean that training partners and sparring partners lighten up as they advance. My experience was that we all kept hitting each other harder because we were tolerating it. That said, we still weren't blasting one another full power with everything we threw lest there be too many split-open heads to deal with, or too many broken ribs, fingers, toes, mashed noses, torn shoulders, wrecked knees, and so on...

For instance: guy kicked my eye socket with his heel, splitting the skin just under the eye where the skin overlaps a boney ridge. The blow itself didn't seem all that uncomfortable, really, a good solid sock, sure, but I've hurt worse bumping my head into the pointy corner of a kitchen cabinet. In any event, I kept fighting, but the instructors stopped the session because, unbeknownst to me, my face was bleeding and my eye was swelling up. It turned an amazing rainbow of colors for a week or two before it finally opened up again and I could see.

Another for instance: guy kicked my ribs and busted at least one of them. I didn't know that he'd broken any, only that he'd made contact, and that it was uncomfortable. So I kept fighting and knocked him out of the game with an uppercut. Day later, he looked fine, but I hurt every time I breathed. (This, by the way, lasted a few weeks.)

Another for instance: grappling with a guy, I put him in an Achilles lock, he put me in a heel hook and tweaked it. Just a little. Instructor made us stop. My crappy lock aggravated my opponent with discomfort (this is supposed to be a pain-compliance lock: next time you feel like propping your feet up, put the Achilles tendon -- right aboutish behind your ankle, at the bend -- on the sharp edge of a table, then apply pressure to imitate the feel), but his little tweak tore a few little bits in my knee. Result, he was walking around fine the next day, but I was limpy for many. The thing is, this particular lock doesn't hurt like the other one, but it starts wrecking things quick.

The leg kicks in Thai boxing hurt piles and piles when shins clack on the sharp ridge (or against knees or elbows), but don't hurt so much when contacting on the flat part. The more banged up they get over time, the less sensitive they become (or the less sensitive to them Thai boxers get).

But the worst dang-it-all pain came from stick fighting. Specifically, a little thing called a thumb pinch. Egad, I hated that little trick. Maybe I have more nerves in my thumbs than everyone else, but it seems less a bash-hurt-go-numb thing and more a grinding-this-isn't-going-to-stop thing. It's performed when one kali guy (eskrima/arnis) pinches the middle joint of his opponent's thumb between two sticks. Since both fighters are armed with sticks in fists, the setup is halfway there. I can't imagine ever being clever enough to slip one of those on someone in a fight, but it was danged uncomfortable to learn.

Nick Blaze
10-08-2009, 09:13 AM
Summonere mentioned a bunch of good situations where pain is involved. There are many, near-infinite ways to be hurt, and thus there are a lot of different kinds of pain. In martial arts, it is obvious that punching and kicking are not the only means of attack. However, getting punched in the neck hurts much differently than getting punched in the shin. Both can hurt a great deal (though one is most likely to shatter fists).

Of course, that's also different from being thrown onto the pavement from a 4 or 5 foot height (such as kata garuma), or even from any dynamic throw (like osotomahikomi).

And that is also very different from being choked. There are many chokes, and all of those can feel different (there are two kinds of "chokes": cutting off circulation and cutting off airflow. Make that three, since some can do both).

Then it becomes much more confusing when weapons are in the fray. Getting punched is nothing like being smacked by a long stick. It also feels nothing like a knife cut or a sharp pointy object in your temple.

Most types of self-defense moves are very painful, usually joint locks, that in and of themselves you can control an opponent's entire body with a single joint. That joint could be the thumb, or the wrist, or an ankle. If somebody tries to punch at you and you have nikkyo, they simply cannot reach you through the pain.

In class, there have been many different injuries. Obvious ones such as sprained wrists/fingers/ankles/knees occure. Other ones like broken bones are obvious. The more serious grapplers often have red and purple marks on their necks by the end of the day. Once, I dislocated my partner's sternum (something I thought impossible).

So, what does it feel like to get punched in the face? Well, your jaw whiplashes. Your teeth clatter. Your skin ripples some. Your eyes go blurry, if not black. You may feel your cheek sink in a bit, or the fist will just rub off your face or into your nose. Tears will flow. But really, the pain isn't so bad unless it hits your nose.

A kick to the shin can be extraordinarily painful. It can be enough to drop people to the floor instantly. In the least case scenerio, they draw it back and limp for a good while. But it's terribly painful. However, note that it is a very dangerous place to attack, because it is a VERY hard bone.

Rowan
10-08-2009, 02:05 PM
So, what does it feel like to get punched in the face? Well, your jaw whiplashes. Your teeth clatter. Your skin ripples some. Your eyes go blurry, if not black. You may feel your cheek sink in a bit, or the fist will just rub off your face or into your nose. Tears will flow. But really, the pain isn't so bad unless it hits your nose.

A kick to the shin can be extraordinarily painful. It can be enough to drop people to the floor instantly. In the least case scenerio, they draw it back and limp for a good while. But it's terribly painful. However, note that it is a very dangerous place to attack, because it is a VERY hard bone.

PERFECT.... Thanks again, Nick! :) You guys have been very helpful...I may use the shin kick and I like your description about "teeth clattering, skin ripples, eyes go blurry". :) (hopefully this thread will also help others who have fight scenes).

Rowan
10-08-2009, 02:08 PM
The simple answer is that getting hit hurts, but how much it hurts is almost entirely dependent upon the pain tolerance of the recipient.

For instance: guy kicked my eye socket with his heel, splitting the skin just under the eye where the skin overlaps a boney ridge. The blow itself didn't seem all that uncomfortable, really, a good solid sock, sure, but I've hurt worse bumping my head into the pointy corner of a kitchen cabinet.

Another for instance: guy kicked my ribs and busted at least one of them. I didn't know that he'd broken any, only that he'd made contact, and that it was uncomfortable. So I kept fighting and knocked him out of the game with an uppercut. Day later, he looked fine, but I hurt every time I breathed. (This, by the way, lasted a few weeks.)

Another for instance: grappling with a guy, I put him in an Achilles lock, he put me in a heel hook and tweaked it... but his little tweak tore a few little bits in my knee. Result, he was walking around fine the next day, but I was limpy for many. The thing is, this particular lock doesn't hurt like the other one, but it starts wrecking things quick.



Thanks again, Summonere! I've been struggling w/my MCs "injury situation". This is great stuff and like I said in my previous post --- hopefully it will also be helpful to others with fight scenes in their WIPs. :)