More signs that DADT is getting closer to repeal

Williebee · Oct 1, 2009

From the Opinionater Blog from the NYT.

The article talks about an essay that appeared in Joint Forces Quarterly (another take on the story). The essay is called “The Efficacy of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” (Link is a pdf)

It includes the following:

After a careful examination, there is no scientific evidence to support the claim that unit cohesion will be negatively affected if homosexuals serve openly. Based on this research, it is not time for the administration to reexamine the issue; rather it is time for the administration to examine how to implement the repeal of the ban.

And the following;

As for the House, Rep. Patrick Murphy (D-Pa.), a decorated Army combat veteran, took the lead in the House on repealing “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” in July. Murphy continues to make progress — his bill, H.R. 1283, now has 176 House co-sponsors, including eight more who signed on in August.

Progress? It looks like it.

Zoombie · Oct 1, 2009

Awesome! Cause, if I ever am called to serve this country, I want to do so with all of me, not just the straight part.

BenPanced · Oct 1, 2009

Maybe this shit will get cleared up in my lifetime...

Zoombie · Oct 1, 2009

And can I say: About fucking time!

blacbird · Oct 1, 2009

Might be the dumbest idea to come out of the Clinton Presidency. And the most symbolically characteristic: try to please everyone, and fail to please anyone.

caw

MattW · Oct 2, 2009

It should be done ASAP. That it takes an act of Congress to repeal it bothers me a little, but as long as it happens.

See - I can be liberal(ish)!

mscelina · Oct 2, 2009

Well, wouldn't it be interesting if something finally was done about DADT? I'm not holding my breath mind you--if I held my breath everytime something was 'almost' done about it I'd have died months ago--but I've quite stupidly permitted myself the slightest smidgen of hope.

Noah Body · Oct 2, 2009

I'm not holding my breath either. I separated from the service in 1994, but back then there were a bunch of folks in uniform who wanted nothing to do with gays. I don't know if that mentality has changed in the intervening 15 years, but if the Army at the very least can deal with it at the rank and file (aka tank and rifle) level, then I'm all for it.

After all, it worked for the Navy...

mscelina · Oct 2, 2009

Noah Body said:
I'm not holding my breath either. I separated from the service in 1994, but back then there were a bunch of folks in uniform who wanted nothing to do with gays. I don't know if that mentality has changed in the intervening 15 years, but if the Army at the very least can deal with it at the rank and file (aka tank and rifle) level, then I'm all for it.

After all, it worked for the Navy...

umm...not sure what you're implying here. DADT is universal throughout all the military branches, much to the detriment of the armed forces. My older brother was an Air Force veteran before DADT. The attitude wasn't anything like "wanted nothing to do with gays."

And the Navy joke is old...old, inaccurate, and perpetuating a not-that-nice myth.

Noah Body · Oct 2, 2009

mscelina said:
umm...not sure what you're implying here. DADT is universal throughout all the military branches, much to the detriment of the armed forces. My older brother was an Air Force veteran before DADT. The attitude wasn't anything like "wanted nothing to do with gays."

And the Navy joke is old...old, inaccurate, and perpetuating a not-that-nice myth.

Yes, I know what it is, but since I served in the Army, that's the force I know.

The jab at the squid league is required, of course--and even though I was a green suiter, I served about Navy ships for a time in the late 1980s, so I'm pretty sure what I can get away with. No need to get angry.

And my original point? If the military is ready for it, then let's scrap DADT and allow gays to serve. If the military is NOT ready for it, then that's another matter.

mscelina · Oct 2, 2009

Noah Body said:
Yes, I know what it is, but since I served in the Army, that's the force I know.

The jab at the squid league is required, of course--and even though I was a green suiter, I served about Navy ships for a time in the late 1980s, so I'm pretty sure what I can get away with. No need to get angry.

And my original point? If the military is ready for it, then let's scrap DADT and allow gays to serve. If the military is NOT ready for it, then that's another matter.

I'm not angry. After working with the gay community for years as an AIDS activist, however, I think a great deal of the problem involving civil issues like DADT and the opposition to gay marriage is perpetuated by these long-time myths. A person's sexual orientation has absolutely NO bearing upon their ability to serve our country, especially in an all-volunteer military. It shouldn't matter if the military is "ready" for it or not--our armed forces should be "ready" for equality and justice without any sort of coddling from our government.

After all, that's what they fight for, right? Equality and justice? So it shouldn't be a problem. This readiness you speak of is another myth--and one that's even more devastating than ignorance.

Noah Body · Oct 2, 2009

Oh, very well, then. Heaven forbid I voice any dissent, even though I don't necessarily disagree. I merely post from practical experience in the military, which may or may not be dated. But never mind that.

DavidZahir · Oct 2, 2009

I don't blame Clinton for DADT per se. He tried to do too much at the very beginning of his term, and several things got squashed as a result. He did what he could under the circumstances.

Me, I'm thrilled it might be on the way out. Mind you, I expect it'll take years still. Hope to be proven wrong. But right now the uber-Religious Right in this country wield a ridiculous amount of influence, which they use with ruthless abandon. I actually feel they are losing their grip, that they feel it, and they are all the more intense as a result.

Williebee · Oct 2, 2009

The jab at the squid league is required, of course

Of course it is, just like this:

2008 Army-Navy Game
Score 34-0 NAVY
Last time Army won? 2001.

Ya' Groundpounder.

I separated from the service in 1994, but back then there were a bunch of folks in uniform who wanted nothing to do with gays.

I got out in '91. For both of us, that was at least a generation of servicemembers ago.

Are there some who won't want to serve with a gay servicemember? Sure. Just as there were/are those who won't/don't want to serve with women/minorities/civilians and even some who think left handed people are "of the devil". (Had one of those as a leading Chief once. Odd.)

Change happens. And, it happens more effectively through education & experience, right? DADT acts as a prohibiter for that education & experience.

Noah Body · Oct 2, 2009

Williebee said:
Of course it is, just like this:

Ya' Groundpounder.

Curse you, you black-shoed bitch!

Williebee said:
I got out in '91. For both of us, that was at least a generation of servicemembers ago.

Are there some who won't want to serve with a gay servicemember? Sure. Just as there were/are those who won't/don't want to serve with women/minorities/civilians and even some who think left handed people are "of the devil". (Had one of those as a leading Chief once. Odd.)

Change happens. And, it happens more effectively through education & experience, right? DADT acts as a prohibiter for that education & experience.

Oh, absolutely. Beyond the shadow of a doubt, there were gays in the Army--I would have to say there were even some in my first real duty unit, an air cavalry troop. It made me uncomfortable at first, but since my previously-cloistered life had been blown to smithereens when I went to university in San Francisco, finding gays in the same unit I was in didn't seem like such a big thing.

The big thing was the people who couldn't tolerate them. I never had any issues with gays myself, and I never had any issues with the homophobes--I kept my head down and did my job, as being a newly-minted WO1 going through the AH-64 ARTEP, I had a hell of a lot to do.

I'm not one for telling a specific class of person what they can and cannot do, and listing out what freedoms they may or may not enjoy. But clearly, the military is not a democracy, and it never has been. DADT is horrid legislation, and it should be repealed. However, the military establishment has a specific mission, and care should be taken to preserve what remains of its readiness rate. This is my only particular concern.

clintl · Oct 2, 2009

DavidZahir said:
I don't blame Clinton for DADT per se. He tried to do too much at the very beginning of his term, and several things got squashed as a result. He did what he could under the circumstances.

DADT wasn't a great thing, and I hope it's finally repealed. But it wasn't as bad as what existed before it, either. It was probably the best Clinton could do at the time.

blacbird · Oct 2, 2009

Noah Body said:
If the military is ready for it, then let's scrap DADT and allow gays to serve. If the military is NOT ready for it, then that's another matter.

The "Military" will never be ready for it of its own volition. Military hierarchy is built upon maintenance of status quo and tradition, as much as anything else. It will take a civilian decision, at the highest level, and there will be griping for a short time, when that decision happens (which it will). It is no different from the decision made, I think by Harry Truman, to fully integrate Armed Forces racially.

Then we'll get on with the real military business of this nation, which is and has constantly been, pursuing warfare.

caw

GeorgeK · Oct 3, 2009

So, I assume that the enlisted at least still have communal showers? Will the acceptance of gays in the military alter the plumbing in the barracks to either more bathrooms or unisex bathrooms?

blacbird said:
The "Military" will never be ready for it of its own volition.

If it has happened before, it will happen again. Thebes had its Sacred Band, an army comprised solely of gay couples, and they kicked ass (pun intended) until the Spartans hacked them to bits.

William Haskins · Oct 3, 2009

Democratic Senate majority leader Harry Reid is turning up the heat on the White House and the Pentagon to take action on changing the “don’t ask, don’t tell” law that bans gays and lesbians serving openly in the military.

In letters dated September 24, which were first reported by The Huffington Post and obtained by The Advocate, Reid writes to President Barack Obama and Defense secretary Robert Gates, “As Congress considers future legislative action, we believe it would be helpful to hear your views on the policy. I would therefore request that you bring to Congress your recommendations on DADT.” (The letter to Secretary Gates can be viewed here.)

Reid also details the cases of Lt. Dan Choi, an Arabic linguist who was discharged under the policy earlier this year, and Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach, an Air Force fighter pilot who is in the process of being discharged, and requests that Gates and President Obama "review" their cases.

He adds, “Unfortunately, it has become clear that a number of individuals with skills essential to winning our struggle against terrorism and the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan -- such as Arabic linguists and intelligence analysts -- have been forced to leave the Armed Forces as a result of the current policy. At a time when we are fighting two wars, I do not believe we can afford to discharge any qualified individual who is willing to serve our country."

A spokesperson for Majority Leader Reid said he had not received a response from either President Obama or Secretary Gates.

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/10/01/Reid_Presses_White_House_on_DADT/#

Noah Body · Oct 3, 2009

blacbird said:
The "Military" will never be ready for it of its own volition. Military hierarchy is built upon maintenance of status quo and tradition, as much as anything else. It will take a civilian decision, at the highest level, and there will be griping for a short time, when that decision happens (which it will). It is no different from the decision made, I think by Harry Truman, to fully integrate Armed Forces racially.

Then we'll get on with the real military business of this nation, which is and has constantly been, pursuing warfare.

caw

It's true that the military would enact whatever policies directed, as it has done in the past. As for whether or not it would be different from the racial integration initiative, that remains to be seen. After all, blacks were legally allowed to serve in the ranks before the policy was decided upon. The same cannot be said for gays.

As for the military being content to merely maintain the status quo, I can't comment on that as my experience is pretty dated--but even in the 1980s and 1990s, I did know some pretty major forward thinkers in uniform. Shocking, I know.

But to overlook or outright dismiss the concerns the military might have as an institution would likely be extremely deleterious. Orders are orders and no one has to like them, but there are ways to get things done in the military without landing on everyone with both boots and shoving it down their collective throat.

William Haskins · Mar 18, 2010

dan choi has chained himself to the white house fence.

Don · Mar 18, 2010

William Haskins said:
dan choi has chained himself to the white house fence.

I thought you were joking.

I apologize.

William Haskins · Mar 18, 2010

i don't joke.

clintl · Mar 18, 2010

That's what makes you super evil.

AMCrenshaw · Mar 18, 2010

Down w/DADT! Down w/DOMA !

Go Choi! Go US of America!

More signs that DADT is getting closer to repeal

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