? Cost for edit of MS

ANNIE said:

What is a reasonable cost for a MS with a word count of about 150k, requiring heavy editing? I'm kind of putting the cart before the horse as I've already had this done, but I want to know if I was ripped of or not

Thanks-Annie

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I hired an editor for my novel MS (then 180,000 words, now about 79,000 words) and he charged US$150/hour. Worth every penny, though, as he is a former professional fiction editor (now executive editor at a major nonfiction house) who's edited the likes of Toni Morrison and Robert Ludlum.

It was a lot of money to be sure so it depends on the editor's qualifications, background, etc. But for me, it was definitely a wise investment.

$150? Wow. The most I've ever got for editing is $30 (U.S.) per hour, and I'm very good at it.

A nice racket, is what it sounds like...

$150/hour is a little high... IMHO.

I think for heavy editing (copy, development, etc.) $3-$5 a page is normal. 250 words is usually considered one page. So, 150K = ~600 pages = $1800 to $3000.

Editing

Nonfiction is a very different matter, but I always tell writers they're making a huge mistake by hiring editing done on a novel. If you can't do the editing yourself, it's very unlikely anyone else can do it for you to the point where the novel will sell. Editing is part of writing fiction.

Having said that, all these rates seem too high. I don't edit very often these days, but I charge only $1.25 per page, and I think anything over $2.00 per page is a ripoff. Especially considering what it is you're really getting. . .and losing.

In my opinion, editing should not be a task wherein excessive profit is made. I edit more to help the writer than to make a profit, so I only want my time paid for, which means I don't want to lose money on the job. At $1.25 per page, my time is paid, the writer isn't sent into bankruptcy, and the job gets done pretty fast.

I also think a good editor is picky about what he edits. If I don't think my work will help a novel, I won't edit it.

I'll do a single pass light edit for $1-1.50 per page, but if I have to do fact checking, heavy content editing, or multiple passes that doesn't end up paying for my time, it can take 2 or 3 hours to do a chapter.

editing

ANNIE said:

jUST TO BE CLEAR- what exactly do consider editing?

punctuation, grammer, sentence structure, inconsistancies in the story line? Any or all of the above?

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For me, inconsistencies in the storyline are the writer's responsibility, though if I see any, I will point them out. That isn't editing, it's rewriting.

Everything else falls under editing, and should be part of the job.

There are different levels of editing.

- proof reading: grammar, spelling errors, punctuations, formatting (line breaks, etc.), acronyms.
- copy editing: proof reading + sentence structures, word choices, consistency, minor rewrites for clarity
- development (book doctoring): proofing + copyediting + character development, plot, content, style, fact checking, etc. + rewrites...

My 'light editing' would be the same as Maestrowork's 'proofreading and copy editing', and my 'content editing or fact checking' would be the same as Maestrowork's 'development'.

ANNIE said:

oKAY,

I DON'T FEEL SO BAD NOW. i PAID 2100$ FOR MY EDIT AND THOUGHT HE DID A GREAT JOB. tHANKS
ANNIE

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You can pay that much for a good edit, or for a bad one. One thing good editors have in common with questionable ones is that both can charge thousands for a whole-book edit. Whether you got ripped or not depends on whether or not your editor was qualified.

Self-editing is an essential part of the writer's craft, and anyone who is serious about a writing career needs to learn it. Another issue: if you don't know how to edit yourself, how will you know if the "professional" you've hired has done a good job?

Editing can make any manuscript better. But it can't make a bad manuscript good, and it can't necessarily make a good manuscript publishable. "Publishable" has a lot to do with quality, but it has a lot to do with other things as well. I see so many writers turning to paid editors as a sort of crutch, and most of the time it's not a good investment. A second eye is essential--no one can be totally objective about his or her own work. But you don't have to pay for it.

If you do spring for an editor, don't mention it when you submit. There are so many bad editors out there that an agent or publisher may assume you've been taken.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss said:

Whether you got ripped or not depends on whether or not your editor was qualified.

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Disagree - someone with excellent qualifications might do a lousy job editing, while someone with no qualifications might do a great job editing. Whether you got ripped depends on whether you (because who else is qualified to judge? difficult to take a survey of publishers...) think the book is better after its been edited.

sunandshadow said:

Disagree - someone with excellent qualifications might do a lousy job editing, while someone with no qualifications might do a great job editing.

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S&S, are you possibly thinking of credentials rather than qualifications? A person with no qualifications can't do a great job of editing. If the job is great, then the person is qualified.

Whether you got ripped depends on whether you...think the book is better after its been edited.

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A couple of problems with this. The writer is only one person whose opinion of the book counts; another, for example, might be a publisher who will accept or reject it. And the writer might think the editor improved the book but charged too much.

sunandshadow said:

Disagree - someone with excellent qualifications might do a lousy job editing, while someone with no qualifications might do a great job editing. Whether you got ripped depends on whether you (because who else is qualified to judge? difficult to take a survey of publishers...) think the book is better after its been edited.

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I've yet to see a writer who didn't think the book was better, no matter how rotten the editing job. Whether or not you get ripped isn't a matter of the writer's opinion, it's purely and simply a matter of how well and how professionally the job is done.

Who else is qualified to judge? The agents and editors you send the novel to after it's edited, that's who, and they will know in a heartbeat whether or not the writer got ripped. And far more often than not, the writers gets ripped royally, no matter what the fees are.

No writer who is sane hires someone without serious professional experience to edit a novel. Whether or not an edit is well done and worth the money is not something that's subjective. Good, pro editors do a good, pro job, and they get it right. It isn't a matter of opinion, or of what the writer thinks.

A good editor gets the grammar correct, the punctuation correct, the proofing correct, the syntax correct, the sentence structure correct, and the format correct, all according to the actual rules. No guesswork involved.

When I edit, I always do what maestrowork calls proofreading and copy editing. I believe any good edit includes both of these things. I don't do "light" edits or "heavy" edits, I simply do the job the manuscript requires.

Most editors seriously overcharge. I see no reason at all why an editor you hire should make three or more times as much as the top editors working for the best publishers. It simply makes no sense at all to charge this much, and even less sense to pay this much.

I have never seen anyone with really good qualifications do a rotten job, and I've never seen anyone without good qualifications do a good job. Unfortunately, a huge percentage of "editors" for hire have no qualifications, unless they make them up, and no matter what they charge, or what the writer thinks, it's a complete rip.

The last thing any sane writer does is pay an unqualified person to edit a manuscript.

And I believe completely that any writer is a hundred times better off if they learn to do these things on their own. It's all part of being a good writer.

I also belive completely that any editor knows when to back away. A novel that's written too poorly to help should not cost the writer large sums of money for work that will take that writer nowhere. Nor should a novel that's already good enough not to need the help cost a writer an arm or a leg.

And I'll say it one more time. The last thing any sane writer does is pay someone without very good qualifications to edit a manuscript. It's wasted money, and it's always a major rip.

reph said:

S&S, are you possibly thinking of credentials rather than qualifications? A person with no qualifications can't do a great job of editing. If the job is great, then the person is qualified.

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Yes, people often use the two terms interchangably, especially when talking about hiring people, so I assumed Victoria was thinking of credentials.

Jamesaritchie said:

When I edit, I always do what maestrowork calls proofreading and copy editing. I believe any good edit includes both of these things. I don't do "light" edits or "heavy" edits, I simply do the job the manuscript requires.

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What about making scene structure and plot suggestions? Do you just not do that, or always do it if you feel the manuscript requires it...? What if the client specifically asks for that and has no interest in being copyedited?

Most editors seriously overcharge. I see no reason at all why an editor you hire should make three or more times as much as the top editors working for the best publishers. It simply makes no sense at all to charge this much, and even less sense to pay this much.

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Well the top editor working for the best publisher makes what, 60-70k a year? I can't imagine the ridiculous rate someone would have to charge per page to earn 3 times that in a year!

victoriastrauss said:

Self-editing is an essential part of the writer's craft, and anyone who is serious about a writing career needs to learn it. Another issue: if you don't know how to edit yourself, how will you know if the "professional" you've hired has done a good job?

Editing can make any manuscript better. But it can't make a bad manuscript good, and it can't necessarily make a good manuscript publishable. "Publishable" has a lot to do with quality, but it has a lot to do with other things as well. I see so many writers turning to paid editors as a sort of crutch, and most of the time it's not a good investment. A second eye is essential--no one can be totally objective about his or her own work. But you don't have to pay for it.

- Victoria

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There seems to be some confusion here. What does editing actually mean? That you give your manusript away "to be edited", and it comes back in perfect form? That I would agree is nonsense; as a writrer you must edit yourself.

I always understood "editing" - and I always use the word in this context - in the sense of "assessment" - a professional, trained editor goes over your work and tells you its weaknesses and strengths, advises you on how to put it right. I consider this a very important function, especially for the first time author - better than any writing course. Naturally, when you get back the editor's report, you do all the work yourself. Hopefully, the next time you can do it yourself without help, as you become more professional.

I had my first book edited in this fashion; I paid by the number of pages, not by the hour. I paid about £350 for a 150k ms, which is about twice that in dollars. Seems cheap, in comparison! And I got an excellent report, plus a recommendation to an agent, who took me on.

reph said:

S&S, are you possibly thinking of credentials rather than qualifications? A person with no qualifications can't do a great job of editing. If the job is great, then the person is qualified.

.

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Reph, I love your eagle eye with words. I'd like to hire you! I always struggle to find the exact word. Living in Gremany for 30 years didn't help; I spoke very little English in that time and when I returned it all felt so rusty. Sometimes I even mixed up words that sounded similar, and I had to look up in a dictionary whether a word was English or German. There were a lotr of new wordas in the English language I'd never heard of, and I had to learn them.

Jamesaritchie said:

A good editor gets the grammar correct, the punctuation correct, the proofing correct, the syntax correct, the sentence structure correct, and the format correct, all according to the actual rules. No guesswork involved.

.

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Aha. I see that your definition of editing is different to mine. My editor made absolutely no corrections of this kind. The advice was entirely on content: POV, structure, story coherance. And that IS a subjective thing; I might think first person is the best voice for my novel, the editor might think third. Who is right? That's purely a matter of opinion. I get the feeling sunandshadow is using "editing" in the same sense that I am.

I assume that as a (aspiring) writer you already know the rules os spelling and grammar. On the other hand, I see no reason why a dyslexic person couldn't tell a great story. In that case, I certainly advocate copy-editing.

aruna said:

I always understood "editing" - and I always use the word in this context - in the sense of "assessment" - a professional, trained editor goes over your work and tells you its weaknesses and strengths, advises you on how to put it right.

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In the U.S., this is called developmental editing. An in-house developmental editor works with the acquisitions department, writing a report that enters into the decision to accept a manuscript or not. Copy editing is a later stage in production.

I'm not sure what you mean to contrast "a professional, trained editor" with. All editors should be trained. The label "professional" is tricky because editors don't meet all the criteria in the classical definition, such as licensing or certification. (By that definition, no one is a professional writer, either.)

aruna said:

I assume that as a (aspiring) writer you already know the rules os spelling and grammar. On the other hand, I see no reason why a dyslexic person couldn't tell a great story. In that case, I certainly advocate copy-editing.

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Spelling and grammar are less widely known than you assume. A publisher would be making a big mistake if it put out a book without copy editing, whether or not the author was dyslexic. Real publishers don't do that.

reph said:

In the U.S., this is called developmental editing. An in-house developmental editor works with the acquisitions department, writing a report that enters into the decision to accept a manuscript or not. Copy editing is a later stage in production.

.)

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I am referring to editing that is done before a writer even sub,its a mansucript; to get it up to scratch.

[QUOTE} Spelling and grammar are less widely known than you assume. A publisher would be making a big mistake if it put out a book without copy editing, whether or not the author was dyslexic. Real publishers don't do that. [/QUOTE]

I never suggested that a publisher put out a book withour copty-editing! But every publisher has an in-house editor; and if they have an excellent manusrcipt with some mistakes of spelling, that CAN be rectified in-house.

It seems that James and others are referring to copy-editing before submission. This should be learned by a serious writer; and a dyslexic writer, or anyone with serious problems, needs to have it done professionally. The ability to spell doesn't come automaticlaly with the ability to tell a great story; and in such a case, if the writer really can't learn (as in the case of a dyslexic) that I don't see why she shouldn't get it done professionally. The story is more important than the spelling.